Corn Squeezins

[jeffburch]

I noticed today at 2 different gas stations a sticker on the pumps that say
"May Contain up to 10% Ethanol"
Is this new?
Is this one of the reasons for recent price increases.
I don't mind running it in the everyday mules.
Was wordering if a 15 year old CMC hooptie may have issues with it.

jb

[gt40]

I noticed today at 2 different gas stations a sticker on the pumps that say
"May Contain up to 10% Ethanol"
Is this new?
Sort-of. Ethanol has been around a wile, but now it's being used as a replacement for MTBE, so its being mixed into the summer gasoline blend.


Is this one of the reasons for recent price increases.

Yes, it's one of the excuses, in additi8on to the ever-popular "down for maintenance/repair." (To be used when there's not a conveniant natural disaster, international unrest, refinery fire, or explosion to blame.)



I don't mind running it in the everyday mules.
Was wordering if a 15 year old CMC hooptie may have issues with it.
I'm not losing any sleep over it.

[BSharp]

And they say the ethanol is corrosive to the pipes and has to be trucked everywhere, more expense. Also, the gas and ethanol cannot be mixed outside the storage tanks so more transportation costs. How long have they known about the discontinuation of MTBE? They act like it was a big surprise, time for another shortage. These oil company mergers are not a good thing for the consumer, Bell Telephone all over again.

[gt40]

These oil company mergers are not a good thing for the consumer, Bell Telephone all over again.Yeah -- you notice how something as predictable as switching over to summer blems has prices up to what it previously took a major disaster to get to? $2.75/gal for 87 this morning in Denton at a QT station.

The next car for me will likely be a Prius or some kind of VW TDI. I just can't afford $500/month for gas any more!

[CMC17]

....

[mitchntx]

I noticed today at 2 different gas stations a sticker on the pumps that say
"May Contain up to 10% Ethanol"
Is this new?
Is this one of the reasons for recent price increases.
I don't mind running it in the everyday mules.
Was wordering if a 15 year old CMC hooptie may have issues with it.

jb

You should watch Channel 4 news occasionally, Jeff.

Because of the ozone problems in Houston and DFW area, Ethanol will be blended into the fuel mixture for the summer months.

The reason the price is so high is because there is a shortage of trucks to truck the corn liquor from the midwest to the fuel processing plants. I tcan only be trucked ... no pipelines exist for it.

[jeffburch]

You should watch Channel 4 news occasionally, Jeff.

Because of the ozone problems in Houston and DFW area, Ethanol will be blended into the fuel mixture for the summer months.

The reason the price is so high is because there is a shortage of trucks to truck the corn liquor from the midwest to the fuel processing plants. I tcan only be trucked ... no pipelines exist for it.

Oh
LOL! (sorry, wrapped up with sports these days)

Thanks,

jb

p.s. will any component of my 15 year old fuel system have a problem with the alcohol?

[MikeP99Z]

http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id1.html

http://www.abc.net.au/brisbane/stories/s1466787.htm

[mitchntx]

FYI ...

Cresson is in Hood County. Hood County is NOT an emmisions county.

[mitchntx]

So this poses a different question ...

Let's say I fill up my gas tank with 87 octane fuel from Granbury and get a dyno cert.

And I then drive to Ft. Worth and fill all my fuel jusgs with ethanol laced 93.

According to Adam, a change in spark plugs or O2 sensors would require a re-cert because of the "potential" power change.

How can I be sure that those of you with ethanol laced fuel aren't going to a dyno after filling up with junk fuel?

Remember, less than 5hp cost Glenn ROTY last year.

[Todd Covini]

....

hahahaha....I saw that and was prepared with the facts.

http://www.exxonmobil.com/Corporate/Files/Corporate/OpEd_fuelforthought.pdf

-=- T

PS- Do I need to hire a bodyguard for the next event!?!?!?!? :twisted:

[Todd Covini]

How can I be sure that those of you with ethanol laced fuel aren't going to a dyno after filling up with junk fuel?


There is no assurance. If someone really wants to cheat there isn't a way to catch them 100% of the time.

However...at least 1 person is goin' to the dyno at the next event for our random dyno drawing and it'll look real obvious if they're draining fuel before heading over there!!! :lol:

-=- Todd

[BSharp]

....

hahahaha....I saw that and was prepared with the facts.

http://www.exxonmobil.com/Corporate/Files/Corporate/OpEd_fuelforthought.pdf

-=- T

PS- Do I need to hire a bodyguard for the next event!?!?!?!? :twisted:

I knew it would not be long until the ExxonMobil rep spoke up. The graph is all fine and dandy but it is flawed. People budget a certain amount of their income for gas, when it shoots up like it did people have to take money from other items to pay for gas. In other countries other items are paid for by the government, health care, day care. Also, you think info from the E/M customer relation dept. might be a "little" biased?

[cjlmlml]

Day Care????????? Is there something we should know.

[BSharp]

Day Care????????? Is there something we should know.

No, I am trying to make a point. We do not live in Europe.

[AllZWay]

....

PS- Do I need to hire a bodyguard for the next event!?!?!?!? :twisted:

If you determine the prices....then it might be a good idea. :D

[jeffburch]

Day Care????????? Is there something we should know.
Now that's funny!

jb

[CMC17]

http://www.tek-racing.net/gas_001.jpg

http://www.tek-racing.net/gasprofits.jpg

[jeffburch]

Updated: 12:08 p.m. ET April 11, 2006
WASHINGTON - With the summer driving season still more than a month away, gasoline prices have already started their seasonal climb - jumping 15 percent in the past six weeks alone. And that's just the price you're paying at the pump. With wholesale prices rising even faster, it's a safe bet that the surge in pump prices isn't over, analysts say.
In fact, pump prices are rising along with the temperature, and motorists should expect little relief during this summer's heavy driving period according to a government report released Tuesday.
The official short-term energy outlook from the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) projects the price for regular grade gasoline this summer will average $2.62 a gallon, 25 cents higher than last summer, barring any unexpected supply disruptions. Gasoline prices have soared since February.
Last week, motorists paid on average $2.68 a gallon nationwide for regular, an 18-cent increase in two weeks and 40 cents higher than the national average a year ago.
Growing demand, high crude oil costs, requirements for low-sulfur gasoline and greater demand for corn-based ethanol as an additive all "are expected to keep consumer prices for motor fuels ... high in 2006," said the report.
The high prices are not expected to dampen demand during the April-September heavy driving season. Motorists are expected to use an average 9.4 million barrels of gasoline a day, or 1.5 percent more than last summer, according to the EIA.
"All of these factors are providing a supply challenge to the industry and our ability to meet demand this summer," said EIA Administrator Guy Caruso at a news conference releasing the forecast Tuesday. "We have very low spare productive capacity."
Caruso also estimates that about 19 cents of the 25 cent increase in pump prices will come from higher crude oil costs.
The seasonal rise in gas prices - from the lows in the dead of winter to the highs in spring and early summer - has averaged about 55 percent each year for the past 20 years, according to Tom Kloza, who tracks pump prices at the Oil Price Information Service. And while pump prices are up roughly 50 cents a gallon since early December, wholesale prices are up more like 75 cents, he said.
"When you have 75 cents of wholesale increases and only about 50 cents of retail you've got about 25 cents of catching up to do," said Kloza.
One reason pump prices haven't kept up is that the rapid rise in wholesale prices has made it harder than usual for retailers to pass along the increase to their customers.
"The retailers are under water," said Kloza. "If you're a chain - whether you're Costco or the local chain - right now there's a very good chance that you're losing money on the gasoline that's going out of your station because you're replacing it at a price that costs more."
As forecasters try to nail down what will happen in the coming months, a lot will depend on what happens in the next several weeks, as U.S. refiners wrestle with a series of production headaches that could put a crimp in supplies.
April usually brings a switch from conventional gasoline sold only in winter months to the so-called reformulated gas mandated in many parts of the country to cut air pollution. That usually means refiners, distributors and wholesalers draw down stocks of winter fuel - which can't legally be sold in summer - flushing the old fuel out of the system before moving the new summer blends.
This year, they've got an added headache. In the past, reformulated gasoline relied on an additive known as MTBE which, after it was found to pollute groundwater, is now being phased out as this year's summer gasoline moves through the system. With supplies already tight, the loss of that additive cuts overall gasoline supplies by about 400,000 barrels a day - or the equivalent of four to five large refineries, according to the National Petrochemical and Refiners Association.
The replacement of choice for MTBE is corn-based ethanol. But ethanol is much more costly to transport because it has to be shipped by rail instead of via pipelines. It also takes about twice as much ethanol by volume to replace MTBE, according to the NPRA. Though Congress enacted generous subsidies last year to boost ethanol production <http://www.npra.org/cms/PDFUpload/PressRelease/NPRA_EPW_Statement_3-28-2006.pdf>, it's not clear that supplies will be adequate in some regions.
That could bring pump price spikes in those areas of the country - including parts of Texas, northern Virginia and the Northeast - that are most heavily effected the MTBE phase-out. (Other markets, like California New York, and parts of the Midwest, have already eliminated MTBE.) So while average prices are not expected to rise much above $3 a gallon, isolated markets could see higher spikes.
Some refiners are also shutting down production now to begin a round of seasonal maintenance that was deferred last fall after back-to-back hurricanes knocked a number of major refineries off line and put added pressure on the rest of the industry to run flat out. Some analysts are predicting that higher-than-normal refinery shutdowns could put a crimp in gasoline inventories in coming weeks.
Then there's the uncertainty surrounding the price of crude oil - which is now approaching $70 a barrel. As the world economy remains strong, demand for oil is growing faster than producers can expand output.
OPEC producers are believed to be pumping about as fast as they can. Political instability in Nigeria and Iraq continue to hamper production and could bring even lower levels if attacks on oil facilities widen. And U.S. producers are still struggling to restore oil production damaged by last falls hurricanes. As of this week nearly a quarter of oil production in the Gulf of Mexico production is still shut in <http://www.mms.gov/ooc/press/2006/press0405.htm>, according the U.S. Minerals Management Service. Since last August, some 144 million barrels of crude have been lost of hurricane damage, or about a quarter of the Gulf's annual output.
Oil traders have already bid up crude prices because of uncertainty about the reliability of supplies. Any further crimp in production could send crude prices spiking and pump prices even higher.
With gasoline prices up sharply, refiners are enjoying their biggest profit margins in years - about $12 on every barrel they produce, according to Jacques Rousseau, an energy analyst with Friedman Billing and Ramsey in Houston. That means about 28.6 cents a gallon of the pump price represent refiner profit.
With all of the wild cards on the production side of the equation, a lot depends on whether consumers find ways to squeeze more miles of out of each gallon and cut back on trips to the pump. Gasoline consumption took a noticeably drop last fall after hurricanes Katrina and Rita sent prices higher, and sales of gas guzzling SUVs have been sharply lower since then. But demand picked up again this winter as pump prices fell.
"When you get north of $2.75 you start to see a demand response, which is to say demand is a little more temperate," said Kloza. "People get pissed off."
The Associated Press contributed to this report.
© 2006 MSNBC.com
URL: <http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12265103/>
================================================== ==
No Shortage
Ethanol officials say they're not responsible for surging gas prices
By Bill Wilson
Wichita Business Journal
Updated: 8:00 p.m. ET April 9, 2006
Oil refiners say don't blame them for higher gasoline prices this summer. They blame ethanol producers.
Oil refiners are voluntarily removing the additive MTBE from their gasoline. It has been linked to groundwater pollution. They want to replace MTBE with ethanol, and Kansas ethanol producers say there's plenty available for the transition.
But the U.S. Department of Energy told a U.S. Senate committee last week that there isn't enough ethanol to replace the MTBE. That could lead to a smaller supply of gasoline, they say, and higher prices at the pumps.
Kansas producers, state ethanol officials and the president of a national organization all say the DOE forecast of an ethanol shortage is wrong. They call the government's claim "disingenuous" and say their industry will be able to meet peaking demand for the changeover.
Guy Caruso, head of the energy department's statistical division, told a Senate committee ethanol supply won't meet demand, creating gasoline price volatility. Unleaded has surged to $2.49 a gallon in Wichita and some analysts are forecasting that the price will reach Hurricane Katrina levels later this summer -- $3 a gallon or slightly higher.
Ed Cross, vice president of the Kansas Independent Oil and Gas Association, agrees. Cross says that not only will there not be enough ethanol to meet the MTBE changeover, the industry won't meet President Bush's goal of 7.5 billion gallons produced annually by 2012.
"It's going to be almost impossible for them to meet," Cross says. "In order to meet those goals in the future, you're going to see whole states planted in crops. Our industry thinks it's going to be almost impossible for ethanol to be that big of a replacement."
Refiners say that their lack of liability protection for MTBE pollution cleanups make the immediate changeover necessary.
A federal report by Energy Information Administration analyst Joanna Shore -- the basis for Caruso's testimony before the Senate last week -- says ethanol producers can't keep up with demand and can't transport it to refineries for blending, creating a loss in gasoline production. And the report says the U.S. will lose gasoline importers who can deliver MTBE-free product or the high quality oil needed to combine with ethanol. Less available gasoline means higher pump prices.
Wrong, says Bob Dinneen, president of the Renewable Fuels Association in Washington, D.C.
"I absolutely reject that argument," Dinneen says. "There's no question whatsoever that the ethanol supply will be there from increased production, market adjustments and some level of increased imports. We have 33 plants under construction nationwide with 2 billion gallons of capacity coming on line. We'll be at 6.5 billion gallons next year. That gives us five years for another billion. I kinda think we'll make it."
Dinneen and others in the Kansas ethanol industry say the industry is being scapegoated for rising fuel prices.
"It's just not true," says Lee Reeve, president of Reeve Agri-Energy near Garden City, who's been blending ethanol for 25 years. "It's just an excuse to drive the price of gasoline up. Obviously, with or without ethanol the price of gas is pretty doggone high. The price of crude is high. The price of heating oil is high. Just because gas is high it has nothing to do with ethanol."
Jere White, executive director of the Kansas Corn Growers Association, also says ethanol supplies can handle the transition.
"But I believe supplies will be tight for awhile," he says.
With more product moving to traditionally ethanol-free areas like the Northeast and Texas, White agrees with the DOE that temporary transportation and storage challenges will exist.
Dinneen says the transportation problems can be solved.
"The refiners themselves made the decision to eliminate MTBE this spring," he says. "There's nothing in the law requiring them to get out. They claim Congress didn't give them liability protection for cleanups, but they didn't have it before. ... If there's a hiccup in the system, it's on the refiners."

© 2006 MSNBC.com
URL: <http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12248902/>

[gt40]

[quote=CMC17]....I knew it would not be long until the ExxonMobil rep spoke up. The graph is all fine and dandy but it is flawed.Well, I wouldn't say the graph is flawed per-se, but what it implies (that we should be glad we aren't paying higher gas prices like the other countries listed,) is.



People budget a certain amount of their income for gas, when it shoots up like it did people have to take money from other items to pay for gas. In other countries other items are paid for by the government, health care, day care. Also, you think info from the E/M customer relation dept. might be a "little" biased?Also consider that in those countries, population centers are MUCH closer to gether -- less travel is required. Also those countries have better public transportation (Public transportation? What's that?) as an alternative to driving. The cars are generally more fuel-efficient, and average trip distances are less than in the US.

As a data point -- I commute about 130 miles per day. My gasoline bill hovers between $450 and $500 per month (not including my wife's gasoline bill.) Do I notice even the smallest changes in gasoline prices? You bet!

[BSharp]

What I am saying is there are guys paid by E/M to make E/M look good. Anything they put out should be taken with a grain of salt. The E/M propaganda machine is huge.

It is a moot point what Europe pays for gas, it is the rate of increase that hurts. People budget a certain amount of money for gas, going up that fast hurts peoples cash flow.

Robert, you really need to get a diesel and run it on veggie oil. You gas bill would go to $0 per week.

[gt40]

Robert, you really need to get a diesel and run it on veggie oil. You gas bill would go to $0 per week.Yeah -- but I'd smell like fish and fries all the time... :)

Seriously -- If I'd known 5 yerars ago what I know now, I'd be driving a VW TDI Jetta, I think (At the time the waiting list for a Prius was 3 months long and The Wife hated that car.)

As it is, the A4 is still getting 33mpg highway while running the "cheap" 87-octane gas.

(BTW -- That 130-mile commute may become a 30-mile commute if things go right this week! :wink: )

[BSharp]

[.Yeah -- but I'd smell like fish and fries all the time... :)

Seriously -- If I'd known 5 yerars ago what I know now, I'd be driving a VW TDI Jetta, I think (At the time the waiting list for a Prius was 3 months long and The Wife hated that car.)

As it is, the A4 is still getting 33mpg highway while running the "cheap" 87-octane gas.

(BTW -- That 130-mile commute may become a 30-mile commute if things go right this week! :wink: )[/quote]

Dave S is running Mercedes on veggie oil, runs quieter, almost gas quiet. I could get used to $0 per week for gas pretty fast.

[gt40]

Dave S is running Mercedes on veggie oil, runs quieter, almost gas quiet. I could get used to $0 per week for gas pretty fast.Schwarze? I gotta see that!

-- RK

[chicane23]

I'm sure glad to be running good gas now and the price difference may not be that bad!

[BSharp]

I'm sure glad to be running good gas now and the price difference may not be that bad!

I bet it just lagging behind a little.

[Todd Covini]

http://www.tek-racing.net/gasprofits.jpg

Well from this chart, it is obvious what the problem is. Look at those bastards at ChevronTexaco!!! I can't believe that!!! 294%...something has got to be done about this!!! :twisted:

-=- T

[oz98cobra]

http://www.tek-racing.net/gasprofits.jpg

Well from this chart, it is obvious what the problem is. Look at those bastards at ChevronTexaco!!! I can't believe that!!! 294%...something has got to be done about this!!! :twisted:

-=- T

Yep, the choice is clear - buy Conoco/Phillips! ;)