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View Full Version : MSR-H invert races - wanna try something new?



GlennCMC70
10-12-2007, 09:32 AM
i thought we would get away from the traditional inverts (its been kicked around here the last few days) and try and come up w/ some fun ways to do them.
list you ideas here and then we can start a pole and let everyone vote. here are some of mine.
1) reverse of season points going into the weekend?
2) age? highest to lowest, or lowest to highest?
3) car number? i'll be going back to the '06 Nationals number i ran (770). :wink:
4) draw car numbers out of a hat?
5) safety gear expiration date?
give me your ideas and lets have a fun end of year event.
also, lets do the video projector thing again for Nationals vids.

donovan
10-12-2007, 09:41 AM
Le Mans start

:P

michaelmosty
10-12-2007, 10:21 AM
youngest to oldest, or oldest to youngest
car weight, lowest to highest, highest to lowest
birthday month, Jan. to Dec. or Dec. to Jan.

Take every idea (10-15 of them) and draw randomly from a hat.
I need to change my car # to 1111. :wink:

Fbody383
10-12-2007, 10:34 AM
Le Mans start

Driver names in one hat...

Car numbers in another :twisted:

Waco Racer
10-12-2007, 10:41 AM
Le Mans start

:P

You want the diesel cars up front?

donovan
10-12-2007, 10:50 AM
Driver names in one hat...

Car numbers in another :twisted:

Now that is just funny!!! I like it...

DD

AllZWay
10-12-2007, 11:01 AM
Le Mans start

Driver names in one hat...

Car numbers in another :twisted:

:D That would definitely be interesting.

Rob Liebbe
10-12-2007, 11:56 AM
Start in qualifying order but with the cars parked backwards on the track. Standing start with a reverse 180 required before turn 1!!!!!!!

or

Everyone on the track and Corey and Glenn still in the pits.

or

Mustangs in front since they need some parity relief. :twisted:

or

Maybe Chain Racing



I like the drivers in one hat and car numbers in another but there's NO WAY that I'll ever fit into Misty's seat.


Smartass mode is working overtime today - sorry.

AllZWay
10-12-2007, 03:24 PM
Smartass mode is working overtime today - sorry.

Just today?? :P

Rob Liebbe
10-12-2007, 03:34 PM
Smartass mode is working overtime today - sorry.

Just today?? :P

That was a predicted response.

AllZWay
10-12-2007, 04:09 PM
Smartass mode is working overtime today - sorry.

Just today?? :P

That was a predicted response.

Thank You... I'll be here all week.

Is this thing On?

http://www.smittysspeedshop.com/smilies/listenup.jpg

mitchntx
10-12-2007, 05:23 PM
2) age? highest to lowest?


I like this one. Gives us old, slow guys 1/2 a chance.

I think Jerry would back me up on this one ... and maybe James. :shock:

Rob Liebbe
10-12-2007, 07:19 PM
I like 40 and over that still have hair (a substantial amount of head hair - back hair doesn't count) start at the front.

rpoz27
10-12-2007, 07:54 PM
And anyone under 30 gets a 2 minute penalty. :twisted:

How about an Australian chase for one of the races? BMWCCA did one last year. It was great to watch and the racers said it was a blast. Martin beat James Clay in that race; the only way that could ever happen.

BTW, anyone can fit in my seat. They can't do it gracefully or comfortably, though. Or without me laughing.

mitchntx
10-12-2007, 08:12 PM
How about an Australian chase for one of the races?


Wouldn't that require the person setting the grid to possess some rudimentary math skills?

Rob Liebbe
10-12-2007, 09:08 PM
What's an Australian Chase?

ShadowBolt
10-12-2007, 09:17 PM
2) age? highest to lowest?


I like this one. Gives us old, slow guys 1/2 a chance.

I think Jerry would back me up on this one ... and maybe James. :shock:


I'm with ya brotha!


JJ

rpoz27
10-12-2007, 09:39 PM
How about an Australian chase for one of the races?


Wouldn't that require the person setting the grid to possess some rudimentary math skills?

Oooooh! I'm telling Country and he's gonna kick your butt all the way to last position in grid! If he can count that high.

At a recent race (not NASA) at TWS where they were pre-gridding in the paddock, a steward gridded the 3rd place car next to the 1st place car not leaving any space between cars for 2nd place. There was, however, plenty of room behind the 1st place car. He was scratching his head and starting to panic when I asked what was wrong and pointed to the empty space behind first place. He congratulated me on my quick thinking. :roll:

rpoz27
10-12-2007, 09:41 PM
What's an Australian Chase?

Bracket racing on a road course using the finish intervals from the previous race. Last guy out first. In a perfect world, everyone would finish side by side.

mitchntx
10-13-2007, 04:37 AM
Oooooh! I'm telling Country and he's gonna kick your butt all the way to last position in grid!


Oooooh! You just tell him! :P

The directors set the grid order. Country just goes by what he's given.

mitchntx
10-13-2007, 04:38 AM
What's an Australian Chase?

Daron starts a 1/2 lap down ...

cobra132
10-13-2007, 08:47 AM
I'll go with age, or maybe driver weight?

AI#97
10-14-2007, 07:11 PM
What's an Australian Chase?

Daron starts a 1/2 lap down ...

Poor guy!

You guys figure out whatever system you want but LAST place on grid is mine! :twisted:

Cody Powell
10-14-2007, 07:23 PM
How about an Australian chase for one of the races?


Wouldn't that require the person setting the grid to possess some rudimentary math skills?

Oooooh! I'm telling Country and he's gonna kick your butt all the way to last position in grid! If he can count that high.

At a recent race (not NASA) at TWS where they were pre-gridding in the paddock, a steward gridded the 3rd place car next to the 1st place car not leaving any space between cars for 2nd place. There was, however, plenty of room behind the 1st place car. He was scratching his head and starting to panic when I asked what was wrong and pointed to the empty space behind first place. He congratulated me on my quick thinking. :roll:

We did this in the RM and it was a blast, highly recommended!

mitchntx
10-14-2007, 07:38 PM
or maybe driver weight?

You still wouldn't get pole ... 8)

GlennCMC70
10-15-2007, 12:11 PM
well take this as a fair warning that no matter what the NASA published schedule says, we will more than likely do somehting other than an invert based on the finish of the previous race. i'm leaning towards inverted based on season points after round 5. this should really make the season points battle really interesting. 2-4 or so is really tight. i'll talk it over w/ the other Directors.

y5e06
10-15-2007, 01:38 PM
i'm leaning towards inverted based on season points after round 5. this should really make the season points battle really interesting.
That does sound real interesting. It could make the points race even tighter...
What ever is decided/agreed upon, please anounce it at least a few days before going into the weekend.

michaelmosty
10-15-2007, 01:49 PM
What do ya'll think of putting all of these ideas in a hat and drawing one at random both Sat. and Sun. morning?

Being in 4th place, I do like the idea of inverting the season points.
Whatever is decided there is always a guaranteed constant....I'm whoopin everyone's ASS!!! :twisted:

GlennCMC70
10-15-2007, 03:14 PM
i'll let ya know when i am sure. but if we decide to pull from a hat, it will be after the first race each day so as to keep it a surprise.
so i dont really see the point of posting it here ASAP.

Wirtz
10-15-2007, 04:32 PM
I'm not running at the final event, so just take this as an opinion.

I'm not in favor of gimmicks to decide the grid for any points race. Road racing is supposed to be about performance, not luck of the draw. I have enough trouble with inverting the starts as it is....

I am however in favor of if the normal race is thought to be a 20 minute race, but we end up running 1 40 minute race in place of 2 20 minute races, the points for the 40 should be double.

Jeff

GlennCMC70
10-15-2007, 05:32 PM
Jeff the inverts are a way of keeping the points chase close. i sort of agree w/ you in regards to the points and its effects. once our car count gets to a steady 15-20 cars per weekend, inverts should go away. w/ inverts, who ever is crowned Regional Champ earned it. for every win, there is a start from the rear of the field.
also, if we dont do inverts, we will do rewards weight. i prefer rewards weight.

Adam Ginsberg
10-15-2007, 06:25 PM
Jeff the inverts are a way of keeping the points chase close. i sort of agree w/ you in regards to the points and its effects. once our car count gets to a steady 15-20 cars per weekend, inverts should go away. w/ inverts, who ever is crowned Regional Champ earned it. for every win, there is a start from the rear of the field.
also, if we dont do inverts, we will do rewards weight. i prefer rewards weight.

When was the decision made for inverts to go away after 15-20 cars? Frankly, thats lame as hell.


I'm not in favor of gimmicks to decide the grid for any points race. Road racing is supposed to be about performance, not luck of the draw. I have enough trouble with inverting the starts as it is....

Jeff - given that you come from a longtime SCCA background, it's not hard to see that you don't like the inverts. However, NASA is not the SCCA.

Inverts, and various other types of starts, are all designed to keep the competition close, and make it possible for others to finish on the podium. It allows folks who may normally finish in the back to drive up front. It good for rookies as well to learn how to deal with faster traffic coming thru. It's good for faster cars to learn how to navigate thru slower traffic. Racing is for everyone, not just the front-runners.

If inverts, and "grab from the hat" style starts ( we should have started those types of starts a long time ago ) go away in this region, then all the fun is gone, and there won't be a reason to show up and race in TX. Lot's of folks do this for fun, as well as competition, but not just for competition.

Frankly, this region needs to go the same school the SE region took classes at to have fun, 'cause there is nothing like a SE event.

GlennCMC70
10-15-2007, 06:31 PM
Adam - where does it say we have to do inverts?

Adam - how about getting into more detail about what it is they do that is more fun than what is done at the TX events. i keep hearing it, but i do not see any details.

AI#97
10-15-2007, 06:55 PM
Jeff the inverts are a way of keeping the points chase close. i sort of agree w/ you in regards to the points and its effects. once our car count gets to a steady 15-20 cars per weekend, inverts should go away. w/ inverts, who ever is crowned Regional Champ earned it. for every win, there is a start from the rear of the field.
also, if we dont do inverts, we will do rewards weight. i prefer rewards weight.

When was the decision made for inverts to go away after 15-20 cars? Frankly, thats lame as hell.


I'm not in favor of gimmicks to decide the grid for any points race. Road racing is supposed to be about performance, not luck of the draw. I have enough trouble with inverting the starts as it is....

Jeff - given that you come from a longtime SCCA background, it's not hard to see that you don't like the inverts. However, NASA is not the SCCA.

Inverts, and various other types of starts, are all designed to keep the competition close, and make it possible for others to finish on the podium. It allows folks who may normally finish in the back to drive up front. It good for rookies as well to learn how to deal with faster traffic coming thru. It's good for faster cars to learn how to navigate thru slower traffic. Racing is for everyone, not just the front-runners.

If inverts, and "grab from the hat" style starts ( we should have started those types of starts a long time ago ) go away in this region, then all the fun is gone, and there won't be a reason to show up and race in TX. Lot's of folks do this for fun, as well as competition, but not just for competition.

Frankly, this region needs to go the same school the SE region took classes at to have fun, 'cause there is nothing like a SE event.

Adam, this isn't to bag on you but what you are describing is called HPDE. Sorry dude but racing IS a competition and there are many of us here that strive to perform better than our competitors. If you are just in it for fun, stick to to HPDE's and instructor events.

When I want to race, I race and do it with 100%. When I want to have fun, I go instruct with Apex, SVTOA and SCMC and go have FUN.

Just my 2 cents....

Wirtz
10-15-2007, 08:24 PM
Well, don't read too much into my comments. I am not saying I want inverts to go away. They were part of the sceen when I started looking at NASA to run, and that is fine. If they do in fact help keep the field full and people coming out to play, then that's great.

Adam, I don't think you really meant anything by the SCCA comment (not like that is a bad thing anyway...), but from my point of view, it is not an SCCA thing, it is a classic road race thing however. Show me one race series that does randomize the grid. The ones that do, all have large spectator money at stake which funds the winning purse.

It's a fine line I guess between competition and fun. Preping and developing a race car (any class race car) is alot of money, and I'm not sure trying to randomize the results would make the expendature of time and money worth it to all that many.

Anyway, like I said, don't read too much into my comments. If the group or NASA wants to do things like luck of the draw races, that is fine, to me, they should be announced in advance and they should not count to years end points. I just thought I would throw my 0.02 out there since the topic had come up.

Jeff

Todd Covini
10-15-2007, 09:18 PM
Glenn's just typing for recreation.
Inverts are not going away.
As it stands now, only ~30% of our races have been inverts this year.

This is a discussion/debate that can't be won.
There are those for them...there are those against them.
Both have valid reasons. That's why we do both.

Here's my opinion:
If you can outprepare, outqualify, outrace AND outpass everyone after the season is thru, you deserve to be champion. Without inverts, you only did 3/4 of the work. A true champion has patience and fervor to be able to slice thru the field...and in most cases, can nearly make it back to the front of the pack at the end of 20 minutes.

It's also my opinion that our Texas racers are some of the best in traffic because we "train" and make ourselves better at it with inverts. I firmly believe that most of the Calif & Texas drivers are better racers because of inverted starts. Most of the "point & shoot" drivers suck in traffic...and to me, that's not "racing"...that's "running away".

Glenn...it is best if we talk to Clifton/Adrian ahead of time when the schedule is put out to give some indication of what we're doing. (Even if it's "draw grid from hat".) It prevents a lot of rework with T&S and keeps everyone on the same page. Let's discuss before history repeats itself and we have a another brew-ha-ha.

-=- Todd

AI#97
10-15-2007, 09:33 PM
Hey Todd....are horns illegal? Was thinking of putting one of those old horns from a 20's model A or something on the car for the inverted races. It would probably entertain the crowd a little and probably help Donovan out with the year end flick so he doesn't have to do any dubbing!! :lol:

Todd Covini
10-15-2007, 09:53 PM
Corey's got a horn you can borrow! :lol:

AI#97
10-15-2007, 10:01 PM
Corey's got a horn you can borrow! :lol:

uh...his horn implies off-road driving and catching air....not for me!!!

Adam Ginsberg
10-15-2007, 10:54 PM
Adam - where does it say we have to do inverts?

Where does it say we have to do them strictly by qual order? Please, Glenn...don't play that game.


Adam - how about getting into more detail about what it is they do that is more fun than what is done at the TX events. i keep hearing it, but i do not see any details.

Go to a SE event. The atmosphere is completely different than a TX event.


Adam, this isn't to bag on you but what you are describing is called HPDE. Sorry dude but racing IS a competition and there are many of us here that strive to perform better than our competitors. If you are just in it for fun, stick to to HPDE's and instructor events.

When I want to race, I race and do it with 100%. When I want to have fun, I go instruct with Apex, SVTOA and SCMC and go have FUN.

Just my 2 cents....

I'm not describing HPDE at all. What I'm describing is how to build a series that includes ALL racers, not just those running up front. It's how you keep people interested in coming to events even when they don't run upfront. It's how you include everyone.

I'm here to race, and have fun doing it. HPDE does nothing for me any longer. If you're not having fun racing, why do it?


Adam, I don't think you really meant anything by the SCCA comment (not like that is a bad thing anyway...), but from my point of view, it is not an SCCA thing, it is a classic road race thing however. Show me one race series that does randomize the grid. The ones that do, all have large spectator money at stake which funds the winning purse.

The SCCA is a great organization - if it wasn't for them, NASA wouldn't exist. The comment regarding SCCA is from discussions with folks all across the US. My point is the attitude from many long time SCCA racers is one of secrecy and extreme competition ( not that there's anything wrong with being competitive ). Don't share anything with your competitors. Keep the cards close to the chest. Find the smallest thing to DQ a person over, even if it's not a competitive advantage. I'm not describing you personally, just what I've seen in nearly 5 years of racing ( not a long time by any means ).

GlennCMC70
10-16-2007, 07:46 AM
Go to a SE event. The atmosphere is completely different than a TX event.
that was helpful. i guess you have no intrest in sharing ideas w/ your own region in an effort to improve it. thanks.


What I'm describing is how to build a series that includes ALL racers, not just those running up front. It's how you keep people interested in coming to events even when they don't run upfront. It's how you include everyone.
how does the series here in TX exclude anyone? what has been done thats makes you say this? if you feel excluded, is it possible that you feel you are owed more attention than you get? i dont think you have raced enough w/ TX this year for that statement to be valid.

Adam Ginsberg
10-16-2007, 08:24 AM
that was helpful. i guess you have no intrest in sharing ideas w/ your own region in an effort to improve it. thanks.

When you have invested and spent half the amount of time and energy in the series that I did from 2003 to 2006, then maybe you can make comments like that.


how does the series here in TX exclude anyone? what has been done thats makes you say this? if you feel excluded, is it possible that you feel you are owed more attention than you get? i dont think you have raced enough w/ TX this year for that statement to be valid.

Did I say anyone was excluded??? You clearly have no idea what I was talking about. You don't get it, Glenn.

GlennCMC70
10-16-2007, 08:52 AM
that was helpful. i guess you have no intrest in sharing ideas w/ your own region in an effort to improve it. thanks.

When you have invested and spent half the amount of time and energy in the series that I did from 2003 to 2006, then maybe you can make comments like that.


how does the series here in TX exclude anyone? what has been done thats makes you say this? if you feel excluded, is it possible that you feel you are owed more attention than you get? i dont think you have raced enough w/ TX this year for that statement to be valid.

Did I say anyone was excluded??? You clearly have no idea what I was talking about. You don't get it, Glenn.


i guess i should have said "you have no further intrest in sharing", sorry.

and yes you did say people were excluded. your words, not mine:

......how to build a series that includes ALL racers, not just those running up front.

so in the intrest of making the TX region AI/CMC better for all involved, what was it that the SE guys did that made your experiance there better than the one you have w/ the TX AI/CMC folks? i'm not implying that it cant be done, i really believe you had a better time, i just want to know what it was that made it better, in order to work towards improving your experiance here w/ us. i've asked and have yet to get an answer. what am i suposed to think? in your everlasting words to me many times over, "you can be part of the problem or you can be part of the solution."
i'm asking you to be part of the solution.

you've been on the defensive w/ me since a couple months back. you have an issue w/ me that seems unresolved and i have no idea what its about. the past few attempts to have a conversation w/ you in person or over the keyboard has resulted in ....... well i dont know what it resulted in, but it wasnt friendly.

donovan
10-16-2007, 09:03 AM
I once had a dog named "Mute"... he never barked.

DD

GlennCMC70
10-16-2007, 09:05 AM
you right David, i'm done.

jeffburch
10-16-2007, 09:10 AM
Todds post above is spot on.
Inverts temper champions,
and inverts allow an opportunity for non front qualifying racers to get a taste of the front of the pack. This also tempers them.
Builds metal for all.
And it shows.

The SE is a whole different ball of wax.
Only 2 race classes. 4 bangers and 8 bangers.
Which seems to make for a closer bunch of folks.
Top notch leadership, and respect for all participants.
Efficietly run events.
Baddass venues.
Smiles for miles.

jb

AllZWay
10-16-2007, 10:49 AM
I personally have never raced a series didn't have inverts... so personally I like them and understand the excitement created by them.

GlennCMC70
10-16-2007, 10:56 AM
inverts stay then. only cause the GM guys like them. :wink:

michaelmosty
10-16-2007, 11:12 AM
I like them also.
Some of my most fun races to date have been during the inverted ones. :D
It also helped tremendously for getting my newbie ass up to speed....or at least partially there. :wink:

AI#97
10-16-2007, 03:50 PM
I'm not describing HPDE at all. What I'm describing is how to build a series that includes ALL racers, not just those running up front. It's how you keep people interested in coming to events even when they don't run upfront. It's how you include everyone.



Funny how this reasoning didn't hold true in 2006...? This region pretty much ran off all the front runners in AI and probably a couple in CMC...I think the car counts in 07 have reflected that... If it were truly worth it in this series to race here, the folks that are away due to budget/time constraints or even personal issues would still find ways come out to play and race.

What I find even funnier is YOUR criticism of NASATX, yet you brag about the time you put in for 3 years to create AI/CMC Texas....? Is this bitterness against TX region in general because of previous events in 2006 or what? Ghosts of Hallet 06'...? Like Glenn said, be part of the solution.

Personally I would LOVE to hear what the SE region does better so we can use it as fuel to do better in our region. Hell, throw some info from Cali and the east coast as well. I would love to see how the SE region got so many Spec E30's on the track that I saw in Jeff's video not to mention all the damn 944's. I think there were more cars in that run group than we have in total at one of our events INCLUDING HPDE cars.

I will agree with you Adam that NASATX needed improvement last year and I think they stepped up in 07. Is there still room for improvement? Of course, there always is. I realize you might have limited time to explain your comments on an internet forum (that isn't corner carvers) and might not fully explain yourself.....but throwing grenades like "they just do it better" and not tell us how makes it seem like you have some unresolved issue and are just bitter. Probably the same feeling Glenn and I BOTH get from you and possibly a reason you aren't a director anymore. Don't fault Glenn for asking REAL questions that need to be answered because from what I have seen, Glenn has put himself out there and done a lot to try and improve things for this group and NASATX as a whole. So have David, Todd and Al....ALL with OVERLY positive and professional attitudes. Thanks guys!

Jeff, thanks for the specifics about SE region. That's GREAT news!


Adam, I can't count the number of times you have told me to shut up in the past but maybe you need to take your own advice for once.....

HELP! I just fell of the horse....call a medic and bring me some oxygen!

jeffburch
10-16-2007, 04:19 PM
Jeff, thanks for the specifics about SE region. That's GREAT news!


If Adam or I were any more specific about the SE vs. Tx we would have to crawl in the mud.
Neither is willing to do that.

When I look forward to next year, their events are above all here except for maybe Eagles Canyon.
I've actually looked into employment in the area.

jb

mitchntx
10-16-2007, 05:00 PM
From my own experience, it's easier and more fun to make veiled innuendo and bitch about things instead of trying to make things better.

See ... I just did it again! :P

:wink:



I've actually looked into employment in the area.

jb

I do the same thing. I can write off the travel expenses to and from on my taxes.

David Love AI27
10-16-2007, 06:44 PM
And anyone under 30 gets a 2 minute penalty. :twisted:

How about an Australian chase for one of the races? BMWCCA did one last year. It was great to watch and the racers said it was a blast. Martin beat James Clay in that race; the only way that could ever happen.

BTW, anyone can fit in my seat. They can't do it gracefully or comfortably, though. Or without me laughing.

been there done that.... and she did laugh!!!

the problem is getting out...

AI#97
10-16-2007, 08:22 PM
If Adam or I were any more specific about the SE vs. Tx we would have to crawl in the mud.
Neither is willing to do that.
jb

Jeff, that is partially admirable for not jumping in the gutter, however; is it not worth it to try and make positive suggestions in the region you have instead of picking up the homestead and taking the wagons east?

I know we can do it and those who are willing to stick it out sure would hate not racing against you anymore.

Neither course of action really accomplishes anything positive, so let's do the best with what we have and do it as a group?

Yes, I took my happy and positive pills today! :P

jeffburch
10-16-2007, 08:33 PM
I was content with my accomplishments regionally.
Had lofty goals.
Wanted to see the sights.
Run the nice tracks within a days drive.
Had a blast.

jb

AI#97
10-16-2007, 08:36 PM
I was content with my accomplishments regionally.
Had lofty goals.
Wanted to see the sights.
Run the nice tracks within a days drive.
Had a blast.

jb

I think you forgot Winning a national championship!!! :wink: That alone is too fuggin' cool!!!