Throttle response delay built in to the new Ford platform

[mitchntx]

There was some discussion concerning throttle response delay on the new Ford platform discussed this past weekend.

I am in a conversation on the Ford Truck Forums concerning some annoying turbo lag issues folks are having and V10 owners are seeing.

Mash the pedal and nothing happens for a second or 2 and then a torrent ensues.

The truck guys are pointing to MAF issues ... the inability of the MAF to respond quick enough to wind velocity changes or the MAF not sending correct signals to the fuel delivery parts of the code written in the ECM.

I'm kind of hearing similarities between what described with the new Mustangs and what folks are experiencing on the trucks.

Daron? Al? Any thoughts?

[GlennCMC70]

in the Mustangs, i think its the lack of a cable on the TB thats the main reason for the problem. is the truck also on a fly by wire set-up?

[mitchntx]

Yes ... FBW.

[AI#97]

No delays on the AI car...hit the gas and all hell breaks loose. More of an ignition timing thing. Most fords are pretty soft with advance in the low rpms anyway. Mine hits 28 (+10 degrees base) degrees at 2700 rpm and hits pretty hard. Primary reason I am running fuel additives to prevent detonation with 11:1 compression. There, my secret is out.

I can see turbo lag on the diesel though...mine was terrible on the dodge till I put a fuel/timing programmer on it...now it freakin' spins the turbo like a mofo at low rpms and will blow through the clutch if I am not careful on the throttle in 5th gear at 40mph. 8)

[Al Fernandez]

I have no input on the diesel aspect, but I can tell you guys from my experience with a street trim S197 that OEM throttle response is pathetic. It has nothing to do with the fact that it doesnt have a push/pull cable on the butterfly, its all in the way its tuned. I drove a brand new 330i which is also throttle by wire and it responded normally.

I've been working with this Doug Studdard at BamaChips to fix mine. Pretty much all the tuners I've seen can fix the on throttle lag issue on the Mustangs, but I am also hung up on the fact that off throttle response on this thing was even worse. You let go of the accelerator...and the rpms just SIT there while the car apparently has to get a committe together to discuss how and when to lower the rpms...Anyway Doug and I are on my second tune to address specifically off throttle response. I have another one this morning...hopefully this will be IT. 8)

Of course all of this is illegal for CMC trim cars...something which will end up having to be addressed IMHO since driving this thing on a track with the factory tune would be...frustrating.

[ShadowBolt]

My C6 has FBW and great throttle response. I even remember Caddies from years ago that had FBW that did not suffer this problem. What's wrong with the Fix Or Repair Daily guys?


JJ

[mitchntx]

During an e-mail and forum discussion, the throttle response on the new (05+) turbo diesels has been an on-going complaint for those of us with stock tunes (ie ... warranty still in place). Turbo lag has always been deemed the culprit.

Chips and tunes fix the problem, but there is a movement to try and get a fresh calibration from FORD for a fix. When merging traffic or pulling across traffic, one had best be cautious.

Folks are looking ant MAF and MAP sensors as the likely source for delayed reaction to foot input.

The description of the issue sounded really familiar with what Al was describing he felt in his Mustang. The diesel dudes hadn't considered some built in throttle response dekays because of or due to FBW ... not even sure if it's relevant. I just kind of put 2 and 2 together and asked the question, is it possible the code is basically the same for both platforms?

Who knows ... the more data gathered, good and/or bad, the better one can make decisions based upon specific circumstances.

[AI#97]

it can totally be tuned out by someone who knows what they are doing. Ford timing/load tables (Automatics) come from the factory very "soft" to prevent driveline shocks....could be the same in the diesels I am sure. The other story was to kill torque during the downshift/upshift while the newer electronic Autos took longer to switch gears. The new 5 speed autos have more gears to shift through to get to 2nd from OD. All of this was to extend the lifetime of the trans...something that ford had problems with in the diesels for a long time. from what I understand the timing delay and a loose torque converter were both used to curb the problems... MAF sensors are not the problem as they cannot change calibration, but only read the air going across them.

The basic scheme is that in part throttle load, timing is reduced considerably and the engine becomes very lazy. The computer has a built in timing retard when it sees 75%+ throttle before it starts adding timing back in to start planning for power. Can be as much as 20 degrees retarded. Some earlier mustang owners fixed this with a package that plugged into the Throttle position sensor that showed the computer 100% throttle at only 50% voltage. It added timing and fuel to fool the computer's load calculation. Manual cars have this delay feature built in as a timing retard between shifts which caused cars to nose over during shifts...it's easily fixed to change that perameter to Zero in a tune. You can even change it to a negative number which results in a timing advance on some calibrations of the EEC!!

Having been tuning the EEC cars for a while and seeing all the perameters that are able to be changed, I have a pretty good understanding how the ford computers calculate load, fuel and timing. The neat thing about the ECU in my car is you can actually change the ABS perameters and traction control if the car is equipped...mines' not but it would be cool to play with. I have played with the ABS back during the AutoX days and was able to raise the threshold of it kicking in on VERY tight turns where the left and right wheels would differ in speed enough to kick the system on. From memory, there are 125 lines that can be changed on my ECU not including the timing tables (5 of them), fuel tables and load tables.

It really is some pretty cool stuff and could be used to an advantage when at the end of mechanical development, but I have little to Zero knowledge of the "Spanish Oak" computers in the 05 plus vehicles....