Annual Dyno Certs

[Rob Liebbe]

Any planning going on yet?

[gt40]

Any planning going on yet?Not until I get my engine healthy again...

[AllZWay]

Glenn....You going to setup a dyno day?

[AI#97]

Shooting for a hot day in January! ;)

Also, gearheads in Arlington might do a dyno day for those of us on this side of the state. If there is a weekend in January everyone is interested in, I can make contact with them on our local mustang board....

[mitchntx]

Steve needs to Dyno his car and was asking about the 11th in the DFw area. that would save him 2 trips.

I was gonna call daniel at simple Quick in benbrook and see what we could rent the dyno for by the 1/2 day.

[michaelmosty]

How about Speedtek in Fort Worth? Last years dyno went great, nice in-ground dyno and the place seemed pretty centrally located for quite a few.

[Rob Liebbe]

For the Houston crowd, there is a new dyno in the north area between Tomball/Spring and the Woodlands at Village Automotive on Kuykendahl Road that may be an option. The only problem is that he has very little paved parking for a bunch of guys with trailers. Also, Horsepower Engineering has moved to 1960 and Perry west of 249.

I propose either Jan. 5 or Jan. 26.

[AI#97]

Dyno's I know of in Dallas area...

Hpp Racing....Lewisville
Gear heads... Bowen and pioneer parkway in Arlington
Speedtek...FTW....airport freeway/820 area
LG Motorsports, Wylie....but they moved?
21st Century Sportscars....still open?
Cresson shop....scary and not even bolted down.
Another hole in the wall in Denton...never been there.

Others? Chime in...

[Adam Ginsberg]

LG Motorsports, Wylie....but they moved?

LG is still in Wylie. They are planning a move to Allen in the next 6-8 months ( out of room with their switch to ALMS ), but for now, they are staying put.

We still have our arrangement with LG - $50 for 3 pulls with A/F ( verified this afternoon ). Give them a day or so notice to make sure they don't have something planned for the dyno on the day you plan to arrive.

Also, RPM in Lewisville. Right off Main street. The very first dyno several of us attended in August of 2003.

[gt40]

LG Motorsports, Wylie....but they moved?their web stire still shows them at:

1211 S Highway 78
Wylie, TX 75098

[Fbody383]

Is there a rookie guide to the dyno thing? Car may not be race ready but should be able to get on a dyno by mid/late Jan.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Is there a rookie guide to the dyno thing? Car may not be race ready but should be able to get on a dyno by mid/late Jan.

Dyno the car in the EXACT configuration you plan to race it in - meaning, once it's dyno'd, you CANNOT change ANYTHING that may change your HP/TQ numbers. No timing changes, no tune up, no change to the TPS, no change to fuel pressure...etc. Any change that could effect HP/TQ #'s will require a recert.

30psi in the tires, 3 pulls. For AI, the highest numbers are the numbers you race off of. For CMC, it's an average of the 3 pulls. Pull #1 with water temps @ 185^, pull #2 @ 195^, pull #3 @ 205^.

In CMC, break the limit by 1HP - add 10lbs to your minimum race weight. 1hp and 1tq - add 20lbs, and so on.

It's not required to have a NASA or Series official present at your annual dyno cert, but it never hurts. If your hood is sealed after a race weekend, then a NASA or Series official is REQUIRED to be present to verify the hood seals, and certify your dyno runs.

[mitchntx]

Is there a rookie guide to the dyno thing? Car may not be race ready but should be able to get on a dyno by mid/late Jan.

Dyno the car in the EXACT configuration you plan to race it in - meaning, once it's dyno'd, you CANNOT change ANYTHING that may change your HP/TQ numbers. No timing changes, no tune up, no change to the TPS, no change to fuel pressure...etc. Any change that could effect HP/TQ #'s will require a recert.


While it's a good idea to make sure you are still within limits, nothing in the rules say it's a requirement to re-cert.

[ShadowBolt]

While it's a good idea to make sure you are still within limits, nothing in the rules say it's a requirement to re-cert.[/quote]


So if I find Eric's old dyno papers (I found all but the last one) I don't have to do it again? I have changed a lot on the car but nothing that would change HP or TQ.


JJ

[Fbody383]

Thanks Adam.


Dyno the car in the EXACT configuration you plan to race it in Am I right that this is really just the HP/TQ part of the question that then establishes minimum weight? I'm more comfortable that the car will be at least running but not in complete race trim.


30psi in the tires, 3 pulls. Rats, I might have to order tires sooner than I thought. If the car is dyno-ed with tires other than the RA-1 tires, what's the ruling?

Richard P., any good dyno shops in the Clear Lake/Hobby/Friendswood/Pearland area?

[mitchntx]

So if I find Eric's old dyno papers (I found all but the last one) I don't have to do it again? I have changed a lot on the car but nothing that would change HP or TQ.


JJ

No ... that's not what I responded to ... Adam stated changes after an annual cert REQUIRED recert. That's not the case ... it's a good idea, but still, not a requirement.

All cars are required to visit the dyno annually.



7.7.3 Inspection and Testing

All CMC cars are required to have an Annual Inspection as outlined in the NASA CCR. In addition to the Annual Inspection the car must also complete a dynamometer inspection on an approved DynoJet brand dynamometer. The dynamometer inspection must be completed no sooner than conclusion of the last CMC event of the previous season and no later than the first CMC event of the new season the car competes in.


David, I would get the car 100% ready to race and THEN dyno cert it. JMHO.

[silversvo]

Richard P., any good dyno shops in the Clear Lake/Hobby/Friendswood/Pearland area?

I am sure you can find a dyno as I think PSI has one and I know they are on the south part of Houston. I know that BHS (Bavarion Hyper Speed)sp? has an in ground dyno, but he is on the NW side of Houston off 249 and 1960 area(Mills Road and Ann).

[BryanL]

Glenn organized a dyno day at Speedtek and it worked out well. They kept the charge at 50 even though we did more than 3 pulls and did some messing around with some of the cars.
Renting the dyno at SimpleQuick is also a great idea. I wanted to stop by and talk to them soon anyway.
Just ready for the plates and I would be up for a dyno.

[Fbody383]

David, I would get the car 100% ready to race and THEN dyno cert it. JMHO.

Fair enough Mitch; I may have to use one of those "new car" fun run exemptions in February.


I am sure you can find a dyno as I think PSI has one and I know they are on the south part of Houston.
Thanks; those guys are pretty close... I can get over the ford product focus. :shock:

[AI#97]

If the car is dyno-ed with tires other than the RA-1 tires, what's the ruling?



Personally, I would suggest the RA1's...they are Much heavier than a typical street tire which will keep the HP #'s down a little...also, run full treads if you can! ;)

Also, since it's an f-body...be sure that they don't put the axle strap over the ebrake cables and cause the rear brakes to drag...seen that happen a few times on street cars on the dyno before....course, you probably don't have an ebrake any more! :lol:

[Fbody383]

If the car is dyno-ed with tires other than the RA-1 tires, what's the ruling?



Personally, I would suggest the RA1's...they are Much heavier than a typical street tire which will keep the HP #'s down a little...also, run full treads if you can! ;)I need a set of rain tires anyway.

Yeah, I was contemplating using some "dyno wheels" off Ebay... heh, heh, heh... now I'll be the first guy to have the lugnuts sealed.

[y5e06]

...be sure that they don't put the axle strap over the ebrake cables and cause the rear brakes to drag:
huh? what the......? e-brake on a race car? what is that? :shock:

[AI#97]

...be sure that they don't put the axle strap over the ebrake cables and cause the rear brakes to drag:
huh? what the......? e-brake on a race car? what is that? :shock:

I still have mine! And it's the only thing that kept me out of the tire wall at Cresson going into little bend when I had that brake line cut in 06....trust me, I was pullin' HARD on that mofo!!!

[GlennCMC70]

while SpeedTech in Haltom City is a good place and a nice dyno........

but, it seems to have problems alot. also the last few times i was in there i got the feeling i was putting them out. i have since switched to Simple Qwik Racing (SQR) in Benbrook. they are off of Winscott Rd just north of I-20. they also have an in ground dyno. it seems to be a nice set-up. if you guys want to all pile up on the same day, we can look into a full dyno day rental. this could work out to be cheaper than $50 per person if we get enough cars, or we could just pin them down to a set price.
this dyno is also used by alot of Spec Miata cars in the local area.

PS - all the 4th gen cars that are available will be needed for some special testing for CMC-2 data collection. this is for LT1 and LS1 cars. please make yourself available for this event. LAW will be dyno'ing 3 cars of ours plus the #8 of Mulder and the #28 of Proctor (hopefully). if Francis is coming to the banquet, it would be nice of him to bring the car.

as for the cert, re-cert thing.
all cars must certify between end of one season and the start of the next.
you should recertify the car if you change anything on the engine - spark plugs, wires, sensors...... anything that could allow the motor to make more power. but this line of thinking could be applied to rear gear changes, full tread tires vs corded tires...... you get the point. the last dyno cert you declair will be the official dyno. so, if you make any changes/repairs and later you are sealed and dyno'ed for whatever reason and you are found to not be in compliance...... tuff shit! its your risk to take. more than likely things will be fine and most cars will not make more power from a simple mid year plug change, but is the cost of a dyno worth a season waisted? dont think it will happen to you? ask me about my 2005 post season dyno check. the result was a loss of ROY and 2nd in season points. later is was learned it was all due to a faulty dyno that was the result of poor mait. infact, there were most likely more people who were not in compliance but were just luck they didnt have to get checked.

point is, its your risk. be as carefull as you feel you need to. but also know this - ifor example if your annual cert has a 33mm restrictor on it and you show up w/ a 34mm plate, bet your ass your going to the dyno w/ a sealed hood. if i'm not clear enough on this w/ ANY of you, call me and we will talk about it.
214-869-9603.

[Adam Ginsberg]

While it's a good idea to make sure you are still within limits, nothing in the rules say it's a requirement to re-cert.

If you dyno on 1 Jan 2008 in a particular config, then perform a tune up to the car on 15 Jan 2008, you will have to redyno the car after the tune up.

[GlennCMC70]

While it's a good idea to make sure you are still within limits, nothing in the rules say it's a requirement to re-cert.

If you dyno on 1 Jan 2008 in a particular config, then perform a tune up to the car on 15 Jan 2008, you will have to redyno the car after the tune up.
and this is a rule in print where?

[AllZWay]

PS - all the 4th gen cars that are available will be needed for some special testing for CMC-2 data collection. this is for LT1 and LS1 cars. please make yourself available for this event. LAW will be dyno'ing 3 cars of ours plus the #8 of Mulder and the #28 of Proctor (hopefully). if Francis is coming to the banquet, it would be nice of him to bring the car.



Do you have a date for sure already? I would definitely like to make it on a dyno day.

[Alien]

This got me thinking...

If your annual dyno is below the allowed 230/300, say 190hp, and you later change plugs wires and items that are not specifically allowed (timing, jets, fuel pressure), Adam is saying you MUST redyno.

If you choose not to (say because you think believe you maybe gained 20hp at most) and get your hood sealed, I thought that as long as it redynod within the allowed limits it's all good? Do the results have to be within "+ / - one-half of the last specified decimal place"?

[Fbody383]

Do you have a date for sure already?

I was gonna cannonball up without the car so nobody can get any sneak peeks... I'm open to dragging the car up, assuming it's ready by then - the more notice the better.

[mitchntx]

This got me thinking...

If your annual dyno is below the allowed 230/300, say 190hp, and you later change plugs wires and items that are not specifically allowed (timing, jets, fuel pressure), Adam is saying you MUST redyno.

If you choose not to (say because you think believe you maybe gained 20hp at most) and get your hood sealed, I thought that as long as it redynod within the allowed limits it's all good? Do the results have to be within "+ / - one-half of the last specified decimal place"?

:lol:

The rules say WHEN you need to dyno ... between the last race and the next year's first race. That's it.

After that, you assume all risk of being over HP/TQ IF you make changes.

If your hood is sealed and sent to the dyno, it has to meet the HP/TQ numbers for the weight you came off track with, not necessarily the numbers you declare at the beginning of the season.

As a season progresses, motors get sicker and HP/TQ goes down. Changes to compensate are allowed and if you chose NOT to redyno, that is the competitor's call. It's also the competitor's risk.

Again, I'm not saying, "No, don't dyno." I AM saying it's a good idea to do so. Proclaiming it as a requirement is just not true.

[Adam Ginsberg]

and this is a rule in print where?

Let me qualify - it does not specifically state in the rules that it's required. We've made it clear in the past that if you make ANY changes that could effect HP/TQ numbers, the car should be redyno'd. If you don't, and the directors are aware of the changes, expect the hood to be sealed. Especially if you win or podium during a weekend.

This has been made very clear by Tony G, and JWL, since the day we started AI and CMC in Texas...make a change, you are supposed to redyno. AAMOF, I'm almost positive it's on the CMC forums.

Gary - all the items you mentioned are permitted to be changed in CMC. You are correct in saying that if you redyno after changes, and the numbers are good, you are fine. Regarding decimal points - if the numbers are 230.0 - 230.4, that's 230. If the numbers are 230.5 - 230.9, that's 231.

The key here is....do you take the chance on making the changes and racing on the old numbers without knowing what your (potentiall) new numbers are? That could lead to a DQ....and trust me, no one what's to DQ a racer from something like that.

Back in '06, I dyno'd at the beginning of the season and raced on those numbers. Later in the season, I made some changes ( new air cleaner setup, new exhaust ), and redyno'd, as the expectation was the numbers would change....and they did. It's conceivable that the changes would never have been caught by anyone, and possibly never had the hood sealed/sent to the dyno. However, that's not a chance I was willing to take (and I still won't).

[mitchntx]

and this is a rule in print where?

Let me qualify - it does not specifically state in the rules that it's required. We've made it clear in the past that if you make ANY changes that could effect HP/TQ numbers, the car should be redyno'd. If you don't, and the directors are aware of the changes, expect the hood to be sealed. Especially if you win or podium during a weekend.

This has been made very clear by Tony G, and JWL, since the day we started AI and CMC in Texas...make a change, you are supposed to redyno. AAMOF, I'm almost positive it's on the CMC forums.

Gary - all the items you mentioned are permitted to be changed in CMC. You are correct in saying that if you redyno after changes, and the numbers are good, you are fine. Regarding decimal points - if the numbers are 230.0 - 230.4, that's 230. If the numbers are 230.5 - 230.9, that's 231.

The key here is....do you take the chance on making the changes and racing on the old numbers without knowing what your (potentiall) new numbers are? That could lead to a DQ....and trust me, no one what's to DQ a racer from something like that.

Back in '06, I dyno'd at the beginning of the season and raced on those numbers. Later in the season, I made some changes ( new air cleaner setup, new exhaust ), and redyno'd, as the expectation was the numbers would change....and they did. It's conceivable that the changes would never have been caught by anyone, and possibly never had the hood sealed/sent to the dyno. However, that's not a chance I was willing to take (and I still won't).

cliff notes: A recert is not REQUIRED ... a good idea, but NOT REQUIRED.

[GlennCMC70]

This got me thinking...

If your annual dyno is below the allowed 230/300, say 190hp, and you later change plugs wires and items that are not specifically allowed (timing, jets, fuel pressure), Adam is saying you MUST redyno.

If you choose not to (say because you think believe you maybe gained 20hp at most) and get your hood sealed, I thought that as long as it redynod within the allowed limits it's all good? Do the results have to be within "+ / - one-half of the last specified decimal place"?

i'll answer this one.
lets say your car makes 190hp/260tq. you car is legal at 3150lbs (3rd gen). now you made changes that increase your power output to 230hp/300tq. you didnt re-dyno the car - i would have, but you dont have to - its a big risk if you ask me. durring the event a person points that changes out. your car could/would get sealed and you would/could be required to report to the dyno. if it pulls 230/300 or less and you were at 3150lbs or more your legal. if it pulls 231hp/301 tq, your car better be at 3170lbs or more. the cars weight will be recorded durring the weekend and once the hood is sealed. those weights will be the official ones used for determining legality. it is expected that each person go out of thier way to ensure thier own legality. myself - i dyno'ed 7 times last year. once at the start of the season on 2 different dyno's, after the first event, i had to have a new motor built, so i re-dyno'ed the car and did so after each event for the next 2-3 events in case the motor loosened up, and it did. i am now running the smallest restrictor i have and i'm still over on TQ. i also dyno'ed 2 times at Nationals 07.
the whole "+ / - one-half of the last specified decimal place" part of the rules only applies to the rebuild tolarances of a motors parts physical demintions.

and a side note - Adams intentions are well placed. but his use of "required" earlier in this thread were not accurate. he seems to have corrected himself. if there are any questions on this, your better off asking a director for clarification.

[AI#97]

Also, for the record, you will probably want to dyno at least twice during the year. keep in mind that dyno'ing in January in 30 degree air that is dense and dry will sometimes net about 10 or more hp and tq than dyno'ing in 100 degree heat with 90% humidity in August. Plan for that! I realize the dyno makes corrections for air density based on what the motor is putting out THAT day based on a standard air density....however, a Dyno does NOT know how much timing your computer pulled in the hot air. My car specifically can see swings of 20hp from January to August, and my tuner has two tunes...one that pulls out power in the cold weather and puts it back in in the hot weather.

I have dyno's from different parts of the year when in the summer the car is only making 311/317....and in the winter when it will make 335/345...

Good luck!

[marshall_mosty]

...and my tuner has two tunes...one that pulls out power in the cold weather and puts it back in in the hot weather...

What is that I hear.... flip chip.... flip chip.... :shock: 8)

[silversvo]

Since we are on the subject of dyno... I took my car to the dyno tonight and it produced 229.1hp and 268ft-lb of torque. Not to bad for a future CMC car in the works. :D

[GlennCMC70]

Since we are on the subject of dyno... I took my car to the dyno tonight and it produced 229.1hp and 268ft-lb of torque. Not to bad for a future CMC car in the works. :D

please tell me thats not the CMC motor. the HP not a problem, its the TQ.

[silversvo]

that is the motor in the car right now... I just took it off the dyno and that is the numbers it produced. I dynoed it on a Mustang Dynometer. I dont know the difference with the Dynojet and Mustang dyno's but that is the numbers the car produce. My car is a carbed car as it is a fox body.

[GlennCMC70]

well to be legal, all dyno certs require a DynoJet 248C. i'm sure the Mustang Dyno's give higher numbers. not sure what you will loose from one to the other.

[silversvo]

I was told that the Mustang Dyno will read lower than the Dynojet 248C. I am sure I am going to have to restrict the car some if the Dyno read correctly tonight. I still have to change the exhaust as I just bought the car and I wanted to know the base horsepower before I started swapping parts over to make it a legal CMC car. If you go to TWS sunday, I will have the car out there.

[AI#97]

...and my tuner has two tunes...one that pulls out power in the cold weather and puts it back in in the hot weather...

What is that I hear.... flip chip.... flip chip.... :shock: 8)

Yes! But unless you see a laptop bouncing around in the cockpit, you have nothing to worry about... :twisted:

[Adam Ginsberg]

I was told that the Mustang Dyno will read lower than the Dynojet 248C. I am sure I am going to have to restrict the car some if the Dyno read correctly tonight. I still have to change the exhaust as I just bought the car and I wanted to know the base horsepower before I started swapping parts over to make it a legal CMC car. If you go to TWS sunday, I will have the car out there.

If you need a set of stock 5.0L headers, let me know. I've got a spare set in the garage.

[silversvo]

Adam, I am going to need a set of stock headers if you have a set. how much do you want for them?

[Todd Covini]

I love it....we'll likely see your #'s increase when you put the factory headers on. I predict a 1HP drop and a 9 TQ gain with restrictive headers.

Good thread...just another add...
You're racing in the configuration noted on your dyno spec sheet.

http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/docs/2008%20dynospecsheet.doc

Here in Texas, we use this sheet for both AI & CMC. Per Nationals procedures, if your car configuration does not match the spec sheet, it invalidates your dyno sheet. i.e.- spec sheet says one thing...your car is inspected and shown to have another = no dyno sheet. No dyno sheet = invalid results or DQ.

Now...we're pretty reasonable, so while a DQ or fun-run could be the answer, we MAY (and sometimes do) just recertify. BUT...that's a judgement call based upon the nature of the changes and it's the racer's responsibiliity to prove they're legal.

(I think our rules even say that somewhere. :wink: ) Stay squeaky clean.

-=- Todd

[Todd Covini]

Adam, I am going to need a set of stock headers if you have a set. how much do you want for them?

I can bring you a set Sunday for $50 if Adam doesn't try to sell you a set for $500. :lol:

-=- T

[Adam Ginsberg]

I can bring you a set Sunday for $50 if Adam doesn't try to sell you a set for $500. :lol:

Nah...it'd be $499. ;)

Grab them from Todd, since he'll be @ TWS.

[Al Fernandez]

Thats great news Troy, sounds like that motor wont need much work after all. I wouldnt worry about the torque being a little low anyway...I've never managed over 275 on my LT1.