NASCAR (and NASA) swiftly responds to James' brake failure!

[Al Fernandez]

http://www.nascar.com/2008/auto/cct/02/12/car.care.brakes.fail/index.html

[AllZWay]

Funny you posted this... I hadn't seen it, but a co-worker was just telling me about it. :D

[Todd Covini]

Kidding aside, I really think we all need to have a "Safety Stand-down" with regard to brake failures. Over the past 5 years, I personally know of more than 5 of them (and there have likely been more that we don't know about in other series/regions.) That's a rate of at least 1 per year! Each of these brake failures had a different root cause.

+Breitenbach- brake line failure (in Calif.) due to tire abraision (most common)
+Mosty- brake line failure due to swaged fitting.
+Matus- brake pedal failure due to mechanical malfunction (non-hydraulic)
+Covini- brake line failure due to stressed copper washer after pad change (infamous Dropped Caliper Syndrome)
+Donovan- brake failure due to overwhelmed brakes (cooling, abuse, overtaxed, late brake one time too many, etc :D )
+ Proctor- brake pedal failure at clevis pin

All of these instances could have been more severe and luckily were not. They should serve as a reminder to all of us to regularly inspect our entire brake system from pedal, to master cylinder, to booster, to brake lines, to fittings, to calipers, to pads, to rotors.

I'll personally report back here once I've done that on my car and hope that each of you do the same once you've confirmed yours are A-OK as well!

-=- Todd

[AI#97]

Kidding aside, I really think we all need to have a "Safety Stand-down" with regard to brake failures. Over the past 5 years, I personally know of more than 5 of them (and there have likely been more that we don't know about in other series/regions.) That's a rate of at least 1 per year! Each of these brake failures had a different root cause.

+Breitenbach- brake line failure (in Calif.) due to tire abraision (most common)
+Mosty- brake line failure due to swaged fitting.
+Matus- brake pedal failure due to mechanical malfunction (non-hydraulic)
+Covini- brake line failure due to stressed copper washer after pad change (infamous Dropped Caliper Syndrome)
+Donovan- brake failure due to overwhelmed brakes (cooling, abuse, overtaxed, late brake one time too many, etc :D )
+ Proctor- brake pedal failure at clevis pin

All of these instances could have been more severe and luckily were not. They should serve as a reminder to all of us to regularly inspect our entire brake system from pedal, to master cylinder, to booster, to brake lines, to fittings, to calipers, to pads, to rotors.

I'll personally report back here once I've done that on my car and hope that each of you do the same once you've confirmed yours are A-OK as well!

-=- Todd

You can add my off in March 06 at little bend to that list...debris hitting brake line. It's smart to protect them as much as you can. A simple "sleeve" wire loom would have prevented my off and $1000 in damage.

[Todd Covini]

I made this one a sticky because I think it's important.

[David Love AI27]

Had a brake problem in 06 due to the vacuum hose coming off the back of carb... had boost for a brief couple of seconds... happened at MSRH at the entrance to pits threw the car sideways and slid to a crawl before proceeding into hot pits... Solution: Clamped vac hose to back of carb...

[Todd Covini]

OK...race day is T-4 days....who has fully inspected their brake system???

[David Love AI27]

OK...race day is T-4 days....who has fully inspected their brake system???

Car is back up on jacks.. new front rotors and pads, rears are good.. gonna stand on head and check pedals and connections...

[Todd Covini]

Adam....can we get the full NTSB report on your brake failure?
At the swage fitting?
Tire rub thru?
Occur at threshold braking?

-=- T

[AllZWay]

Did anyone see the Speed GT race from Sebring? Not really a spoiler here....but Eric Curren had a big brake failure that resulted in a destroyed Corvette.

[ShadowBolt]

James,
What was the failure?


JJ

[AllZWay]

James,
What was the failure?


JJ

They really didn't know for sure....but they had some brake problems all weekend and had changed rotors just prior to the race and thought maybe they didn't get bedded well.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Adam....can we get the full NTSB report on your brake failure?
At the swage fitting?
Tire rub thru?
Occur at threshold braking?

I won't know 100% until I remove the line later this week, however....as soon as I got home on Sunday, I put the car up in the air ( fun getting it off the trailer and into the garage with no brakes...used reverse/1st and some clutch slippage to get it to stop ). All the fluid was gone, so I put some into the MC, had my son step on the pedal...and fluid/bubbles appeared at the swedged fitting down at the caliper. At least, it appears to be a swedged fitting. Once the line comes off the car, I'll know for certain. No apparent tire rub damage.

New lines are on order (with spares), and should be here in another day or so...hoping to get them installed prior to leaving on an 8 day trip for FL this Friday (28 Mar).

[marshall_mosty]

I made my own lines. Now all five lines are the same length and the same fittings, so I only need to have a few spares. I have 11 (yup, that's eleven)... just in case.

[GlennCMC70]

i replaced all the OEM stuff on the car w/ standard 3/16" hardline and -3AN fittings/banjo's. this allowed me to use premade standard -3AN brake lines from the dirt track shop. i have 3 different lengths w/ five lines total. i carry one complete set of 5 in the spares box.

these lines have been on the car for over 3 years now. the trick to keeping them in good shape is proper angles on the ends to prevent kinking (likely Adams reason for failure as well as a few others i've seen), and to route them away from anything that can touch them. anything.
i also cover them w/ clear heat shrink tube to keep the grit out of the strands of SS braiding and to keep it out of the ends of the fittings.


my lines cost me $15 each from Smiley's.

[michaelmosty]

I have to repeat my experience:

Never order anything from discbrakesrus.com. Both of my brake line failures were due to crappy products that they made in-house and tried to sell as Goodrich products. It appears now that all s/s brake lines they sell are made in-house and they don't give a crap about peoples safety.

I spoke to the owner the after the first failure I had (Sept. 05). After my failure at Hallett in 06 I spoke to the owner again and asked him if anything like this had ever happened. He assured me that this was the first. He was completely caught off-guard when I told him that I was the same individual that had the same problem the previous year.
I then called a few months later inquiring about their products and casually asked if they had ever had problems with their "in-house" products and he assured me that they hadn't.

As you can tell this is a very sore spot for me and it hurts even more that the people running the company don't give a shit about safety. Don't buy their products, don't use their products, don't have anything to do with them!!!!! :evil:

[Adam Ginsberg]

The first set of lines I put on in late 2003 were all from www.anplumbing.com. Later, when I had an MM sponsorship ( late 04, early 05 ), I lifed out the older units. The line that failed @ MSR-C was an MM line.

[michaelmosty]

Were these the StopTech lines that MM sells?

[dirwin]

Discbrakesrus.com has totalled many a Factory Five. In the Challenge Series we were forced to use stock fox body brake parts. If you don't have a donor car with good brake equipment, discbrakesrus is one of the only suppliers and what they supply is pure crap.

We check calipers everytime we have a wheel off whether in the shop or at the track and it has just become routine. Fittings can and will fail with the pressures and heat we have, but they usually will start to leak very slightly prior to splitting. We caught a bad line 2 years ago and that line already had 3 weekends on it with no pinch or rub. The fitting just started seeping and since you can't tighten that out it would have failed. That was a Brembo line so it really doesn't matter who makes it, you still have to inspect it and everytime you have a wheel off is easy.

[mitchntx]

The tid-bits of info in this thread are great! Let me add one of my common practices.

First thing after a race is I remove all the wheels/tires and give them a thorough bath inside and out, checking for cracks in the wheels. I also check the tires for cuts, blisters and abnormal wear patterns.

The fallout from doing this is it is very easy to spot drops of fluid which might've leaked from a caliper or fitting while the wheel is off the car and it's being hand washed.

I convert my hard lines to Aeroquip -3 AN fittings and use Goodridge AN brake lines. Much cheaper and available at any dirt track shop for about $10-15 each.

[dirwin]

I've heard people over the years brag about loading the car up on the trailer and then unloading it for the first time at the next race. Not something to brag about, put a wrench on every nut and bolt after every weekend and if all you are going to do is look at it for God sakes use safety wire and a paint pen.

Mitch, you are spot on as usual, keep it clean and you can see just about anything that went or is going south during the weekend.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Were these the StopTech lines that MM sells?

Yes, they are. Postmortem shows the braiding failed right at the swedge (under the black covering), allowing the line to bulge and fail.

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/images/brakes/MMBK6F.jpg

The failure occurred at threshold.....there was ~.5 seconds of good pedal, then it went to the floor.

The caliper never hung by the line, never dropped and hung by the line, no apparent abrasion/damage (it's right at the caliper). When I first started racing, I made a set of caliper hangers out of old coat/shirt hangers. About ~10-12" long with hooks on both ends - hook to the loop on the caliper, then hang it from a hole available in the inner fenderwell.

All new lines have been installed as of yesterday, with spares in the spares box. From this point out, they'll be inspected at and after every event, and replaced every other year. All five lines can be replaced for $54.

[michaelmosty]

All five lines can be replaced for $54.
I know a few people have made their brake lines in the past. Did you do that for this go-around?
$54 seems awefully cheap if they are off the shelf.

[Adam Ginsberg]

I know a few people have made their brake lines in the past. Did you do that for this go-around?

Yes - I bought all the parts from www.anplumbing.com ( Earl's store ). The rear lines I replaced yesterday were all of the Earl's I put on the car back in '03/'04.

It literally takes 3 minutes to replace each caliper line, and 5 minutes for the body-to-axle line since it's under the car. 1/2" line wrench.


$54 seems awefully cheap if they are off the shelf.

$54 for all five lines.

63010110 - rear caliper lines, and body to axle housing. $9.54 each x3 = $30
63010116 - front caliper lines. $11.85 each x2 = $24.00

The rest of the parts list:

989549 -3AN to 7/16-24 IF hard-to-flex adapter
997631 -3AN 10mm .425" banjos (x4)
997603 -3AN 3/8" .425" axle hop banjo (x4)
972050 Tee, 3/8"-24 IF brass (x1)
581531 adapter for tee, -3AN to 3/8-24 IF (x1)

My preference is to use Ford crush washers (part # D3TZ-2149-A) since they are thicker than the cheapie units found in the local parts store and seal better.

You could use the 63010116's for all five lines to make it even easier.

[Rob Liebbe]

[quote=michaelmosty]
It literally takes 3 minutes to replace each caliper line,

Unless you tear off the hard line. :o :o :o

Thanks for the info Adam, I believe I will order some brake hoses and parts.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Unless you tear off the hard line. :o :o :o

Yeah...thanks for the reminder. ;)

Once you install the adapter, you shouldn't have to touch the hard line again. To replace the flexible line, put an 11/16 line wrench on the adapter, then a 1/2 line wrench on the brake line. In my case, there was no adapter on the hardline....there is now.