how did you guys get so much faster in so little time?

[ShadowBolt]

I was looking at some of Adam's old race write-ups and came upon this.

The CMC racers were equally hot on track – the #17 of Varner, with a carefully pinned down hood, scorched the pavement with a ripping 1:25.879. Jeff Burch, the current MSR-C track record holder, was only .3 behind with a 1:26.087. The rest of the CMC was equally close, showing lap times all within a second of one another.

On this day at MSRC (May of 06) Jeff was second in qual for R1 with a 1:26.087. I was eight this last weekend in R3 with a 1:26.2 (Thanks again Mitch)? How in the hell have you guys picked up so much (like two or three seconds)? Can a guy get better just going to the six races a year? It is hard for me to do very many track days with the tracks so far away from me. Can you really learn much just doing track events when not going door to door? I feel like even if I picked up a second or two, if I don't learn to drive in traffic, what good does it do? Just looking for what to do to get to the next level?

After being bummed all night and all day today about spinning on the first F'ing lap I feel a little better knowing I got within less than a second of the time the great EV did in CMC17. Jay also ran a 1:26 something.


JJ

[AI#97]

Jerry, I don't know if I can speak for the CMC crowd but yes, seat time even just doing track days/DE's will make you faster. Mostly in part to tweaking on the car and getting it to work....secondly, getting to know the car and YOU behind the wheel better. I do just about every instruction event I can make lately just to work on tweaking the car. I learned to drive it when it was really bad, and now I am working on fixing one thing at a time. Probably because that's all I can keep track of! :D

Even though you aren't door to door, you gain valuable information about setups, car placement and track knowledge. Once all that becomes second nature, you can concentrate on how to pass or pressure someone out of your way which is where the door to door skills get honed.

It's been said many times and many ways.... Seat time! Seat time! Seat time! is the best modification you can make to the car!

[GlennCMC70]

Jerry, i rarely do test days. mostly its just me making all the events.

seat time is key.

[jeffburch]

For me, it is all the car :P

jb

[ShadowBolt]

For me, it is all the car :P

jb

Are you saying you work on the car more than your driving? Or is this as I assume, a joke?


JJ

[jeffburch]

Humor.
8)
jb

[Al Fernandez]

Without getting into any great debates about car development yadda yadda...seat time, seat time, and seat time are the three most important things to buy to get faster. Six race weekends a year is plenty to get fast. More is better, and too much is just right, but take what you can.

Now...the fastest a particular car with a particular driver can go on a particular track will vary with surface condition and weather even if you kept the car and driver skill static, but there is no doubt in my mind JB is faster today than he was two years ago, same as everyone else here is.

[BryanL]

JJ-How did you get so much faster this year from last year? I don't think you should be bummed at all. I thought your lap times were good but I haven't looked to see if all your laps are consistent? I too was a little bummed this weekend but have to keep it in perspective. Remember some of these guys have been in the same car for several years and may have lots of track time prior to racing. This was only my 5th weekend in the car (one other weekend in my 68 Camaro) so I have areas I know I can improve which gives me hope.
Seat time obviously is key but also spending some time learning and working on things. What I mean is not just seat time but testing. Testing different changes to the car and the driver and understanding what it makes the car do so you can make adjustments on race weekend. Right now I still feel really lost with tire pressures. My car was totally different last weekend so now I have to learn to drive it differently. But like you I am wanting to get competitive with everyone else and a little disappointed I wasn't faster.
I just started reading "Going Faster" by Skip Barber. You could consider hiring a driving coach for a track day. Getting a data acquisition system might also help. Could really help you since you have 2 drivers that may run a lap differently.

Bryan

[ShadowBolt]

Bryan,

I have not changed a thing on the cars set-up since I purchased it. How Jay and I got so much faster from MSRH of last year to this MSRH of this year is a good question. In 07 I was running on old tires that came on the car and this year started out with a new set. Other than paint and Painless wiring nothing else has been changed. Jay and I had four or five years of doing DE's prior to racing. If your first track time ever was last year in NASA your doing very well indeed! It took Jay and I four or five track weekends a year for four or five years to get where we are and we are still way behind most of the others. Al made me feel good when he told me he had driven his car for seven years and was just a tick faster than I was in R3 qual. It did make me feel better but that also means I'm seven years behind in race experence. Then you have JB driving two seconds a lap quicker while messing with the radio and smoking a cig. Proctor with years of dirt track side by side racing experence and I don't even want to think about JW and his 1:23. makes it look like a mountain to climb.

JJ

[Wirtz]

I believe in good car prep and as much seat time as you can get. Other simple things to stay sharp. In my case, I drive a six speed car for a daily driver. things like heel-toe stay second nature that way. It's hard to keep sharp if you only drive your car 2 days a month.

Fear is a good motivator as well ;)

Jeff

[AllZWay]

I am certianly not fast...but the driving close at speed was an easy transition.

The art of learning to pass without pushing someone out of the way ..... is what I am still trying to learn. :D

I showed Burch's video to a friend that still races on dirt and he loved the video....but he didn't know if he could survive the frustration of not punting someone(like me in the video) that was in the way.

[michaelmosty]

The art of learning to pass without pushing someone out of the way ..... is what I am still trying to learn. :D

Just slow down a little James, no need to try and force anything. :P

[BryanL]

James-you are way off base if you think you aren't fast.

JJ-do you guys heel-toe? I haven't tried it yet but heard it will make you much smoother. So you really only have 2 weekends on good tires. I'm guessing that getting used to better tires you might be able to push it harder in some areas that you couldn't before. If I were you I wouldn't worry too much since you are competitive and determined. Just try and get on track as much as possible. Which means getting another car so you spend all weekend in the car :wink:
Remember that Texas has shown it has the best CMC cars in the country. It isn't going to be easy to come out and run in the front.
Bryan

[mitchntx]

do you guys heel-toe? I haven't tried it yet but heard it will make you much smoother.


:shock:

OK ... you are officially a "Mustang guy" .... :roll:

[GlennCMC70]

heel toe is worth a second or more easily.
i should start soon, huh?

[jeffburch]

Everything about the tires is bunk.
Crap.
Thin is in, I don't care how many heat cycles.
Tires I ran for the 1st 2 events this year were from Nat's '06.
Set them hot at 30-32 front and 28-30 rear.
In 2006 my fast tires were thin ones with a '00 code.
Check your temps proper to set/get a median camber and forget it.

jb

[ShadowBolt]

James-you are way off base if you think you aren't fast.

JJ-do you guys heel-toe? I haven't tried it yet but heard it will make you much smoother. So you really only have 2 weekends on good tires. I'm guessing that getting used to better tires you might be able to push it harder in some areas that you couldn't before. If I were you I wouldn't worry too much since you are competitive and determined. Just try and get on track as much as possible. Which means getting another car so you spend all weekend in the car :wink:
Remember that Texas has shown it has the best CMC cars in the country. It isn't going to be easy to come out and run in the front.
Bryan


Yeah, James is not fast.....right!

Bryan, I do heal-toe. Jay does not but Jay is way smoother than I am. I don't know that it's that important until you get to the top of the game.....but what the hell do I know?


JB, I did not say the tires were the difference, I just know it's all that was different on the car from last year at MSRH in June and this year at MSRH. I took four seconds a lap off my best and Jay took six seconds off his best. I ran TWS in between. Jay did not have a single lap in the car between Houston events. I just assumed the new tires were the difference. I'm glad to know I don't have to buy tires every few events to compete.


JJ

[evarner]

Great video with heal toe from Boris.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LRWj248s93E&feature=related

Anyone in CMC or AI have something similar besides "out the front" video?

[mitchntx]

Here is another H/T cam
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qdWSyrqEnE4

This is more how I do it. I can't contort my ankle enough to get my heel on the gas pedal. So I roll my foot, similar to this driver.

Bryan, you need to learn to H/T. Do you have a street car that is a standard? The best way to learn is to H/T everywhere. Steve was several seconds off the pace till we got him to start doing it. You'll over-rev, under-rev, no-rev ... it's just a part of learning.

Also notice how he uses his left foot to "pump" the brake pedal before big braking zones. I do this a lot. The Cam/Bird calipers are very susceptible to caliper spread and pad knock-back, giving you a long pedal. A quick pump will seat the pads and bring the pedal up to the top.

[evarner]

I never did the H/T.. just like Mitch - I used the rollover method since I couldn't get my big club foot to contort enough to get the heel over to the gas. Left side of the food on the edge of the brake pedal and then roll the rest on the gas when needed.

I guess it was fortunate that I drove the same kind of car each day to work as the CMC car. I practiced "H/T" everyday to/from work. It was so common place that when I hopped in the race car there was absolutely no difference.

Practice...but not during a race!!!!! :D Go out in an HPDE or other group (if allowed) to give it a go.

[marshall_mosty]

I do the foot roll as well. I guess it's a function of pedal box space, shoe size, and preference.

In my old street car, I used to rev match for every downshift. Practice makes perfect.

[Wirtz]

I made one with my old ITS car a while back. I was trying to show some friends not only heel toe, but also left foot braking, and switching back and forth between them. Sorry for the hairy legs, it was during a test session and full gear was not required.

Right Clicky, Save As (http://www.rcubedmotorsports.no-ip.com/videos/TWS_2-9_footcam.wmv)

Jeff

[marshall_mosty]

Jeff,
That was an amazing bit of video. That helps explain the 1:23.XX at MSR-C.

Your footwork was so fluid...

[Wirtz]

Thanks Marshall. It does take alot of practice, but once you develop the feel, it becomes second nature. The comment made to practice in a HPDE session is a good one. You do want some space while you work out pressure and timing.

I learned most of my footwork in my autocross days. TAMSCC (the college race club at A&M *whoop!*) used to run all day practice autocrosses with several different course setup. You could basically hotlap the car and it is that kind of focused time is great for working out the footwork.

Jeff

[donovan]

JW, That video could have been taken from my car... you work the pedal exactly the same way I do. Right down to the same right foot roll to the throttle.

DD

[marshall_mosty]

DD,
I didn't know you worked the brake pedal with your left foot...

[AllZWay]

I have not gotten to see JeffW's video yet but mine would be more like DW once said...."my feet look like am stomping out a grass fire." :D

[michaelmosty]

Awesome video Jeff, that left foot braking looks sweet.

Sorry for the hairy legs,
Do you wear Old Spice deoderant?

[Boudy]

When I was learning, I kept getting "brake gas" trying to use the rollover method. So to prevent this I got used getting my right foot more solidly planted onto the center of the brake pedal and swinging my heal over to tag the gas. After I got the Mustang and started getting used to it, the heal swing became less drastic, smoother, and faster so kinda like a hybrid now but closer to a rollover.

I don't use left foot braking at all but will give it a try. The upcoming enduro will be a perfect time to pratice technique because of track time and pace.

Boudy

[AI#97]

I don't use left foot braking at all but will give it a try. The upcoming enduro will be a perfect time to pratice technique because of track time and pace.

Boudy

I tried it on the street in my truck and couldn't re-train my left foot to only push what was in front of it to the floor every time! Suffice to say I learned what the steering wheel tasted like a few times! LOL!

I would love to try it again and make it work but I am going to go with "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!" for now!

I am a roller...

[AllZWay]

I finally got to where I could see the Jeff W's video. Great video and very nice footwork Jeff.

I am in no way even close to that.

I had an instructor at TWS that worked with me on left foot braking....and I do use it occassionally, but I am still not real comfortable with doing it, especially in race conditions.

I certainly would not be comfortable switching feet while braking.

As for heel & toe... when I use it...I do actually heel and toe with the ball of my foot on the brake and pop the throttle with the heel of my foot.

[ShadowBolt]

Thanks Marshall. It does take alot of practice, but once you develop the feel, it becomes second nature. The comment made to practice in a HPDE session is a good one. You do want some space while you work out pressure and timing.

I learned most of my footwork in my autocross days. TAMSCC (the college race club at A&M *whoop!*) used to run all day practice autocrosses with several different course setup. You could basically hotlap the car and it is that kind of focused time is great for working out the footwork.

Jeff


Jeff,

Does this really make a driver much faster?


JJ

[Wirtz]

I'll be honest: I'm not sure. I'm willing to bet it depends on the driver and car moreso than the technique.

I do think heel / toe is very important, if for no other reason than it helps keep the car balanced and gives you faster access to power in the right gears, especially when in traffic.

But left foot braking is pretty debatable I think. Look at the Boris Said video at Sears. He seems to be doing pretty good. The left foot stuff makes it so I can transfer weight and correct the car mid turn. Some would say that can be an advantage and I think some would say you are better off staying with right foot since it forces you to smooth things out and you are less likely to over correct yourself into being slower. I do think left foot helps lower the times in autocross, which is where I first learned it. But I think it is most important to be comfortable and able to read and predict the car.

Jeff

[GlennCMC70]

heal toe does make you faster. it keeps the car better balanced while on the edge longer and deeper into the corner.

[mitchntx]

H/T is almost MANDATORY in a 4th gen.

If you downshift early, even if you rev match, engine braking combined with late braking will induce MASSIVE rear wheel hop and a subsequent spin. You guys have seen me do it countless times ... T15 at Houston, Little Bend at Cresson, T3 at TWS, T2 and T6 at Hallett ...

So, going down a gear at the last possible moment is mandatory. And not upsetting the car's balance while doing it keeps the car on the track.

Jerry ...

Something I noticed in your in-car vids is that you drive one-handed some of the time. The only coaching I would give is to keep both hands on the wheel as much as possible and shuffle the wheel, don't do a hand over hand steering.

A shuffle is smoother and less prone to getting your hands tangled. Hand over hand typically has the steering wheel coming to a stop before continuing on with the steering motion.

Each time the steering wheel stops and then starts again, there is a weight change on a suspension corner which typically then requires a steering reaction which changes the weight which requires a steering reaction which changes ...

Not being critical, trying to be constructive ....

[Todd Covini]

Nice video, Wirtz!

"Big, hairy, American winning machine." comes to mind! :lol:

I did notice that you do an excellent job of keeping the revs up by using left foot braking....and done pretty nicely at that! I could learn some from that technique. You scrubbed enough speed for the turn without sacrificing valuable RPMS (i.e.- as soon as you were off the LFB, the revs were back where you needed them again and you didn't have to wait for unnecessary spool up. Nicely done.

Here's the official NASA tutorial on shifting/heel/toe/braking for educational purposes only:

http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/heelandtoe.html

-=- Todd

[ShadowBolt]

H/T is almost MANDATORY in a 4th gen.

If you downshift early, even if you rev match, engine braking combined with late braking will induce MASSIVE rear wheel hop and a subsequent spin. You guys have seen me do it countless times ... T15 at Houston, Little Bend at Cresson, T3 at TWS, T2 and T6 at Hallett ...

So, going down a gear at the last possible moment is mandatory. And not upsetting the car's balance while doing it keeps the car on the track.

Jerry ...

Something I noticed in your in-car vids is that you drive one-handed some of the time. The only coaching I would give is to keep both hands on the wheel as much as possible and shuffle the wheel, don't do a hand over hand steering.

A shuffle is smoother and less prone to getting your hands tangled. Hand over hand typically has the steering wheel coming to a stop before continuing on with the steering motion.

Each time the steering wheel stops and then starts again, there is a weight change on a suspension corner which typically then requires a steering reaction which changes the weight which requires a steering reaction which changes ...

Not being critical, trying to be constructive ....


Mitch,
please don't ever worry about being critical. I can take it. Wayne has been trying to get me to stop driving one handed for years. I thought I did better in the last race but I guess I need to watch the video again......maybe not. I was watching Adam's video and he never really uses his right hand, it just slides up and down the wheel. Is this what you mean by a shuffle? I have a habit of driving with my left hand (I'm left handed) and sometimes driving left turns with the left hand and right turns with the right hand. Bad habit for sure!


JJ

[mitchntx]

It appears mostly when you shift before exiting Tombstone. Your hand never leaves the shifter all the way through Big Bend. Not every time, but a lot of the times.

I believe you are correct about Adam. Also, many drivers (especially F1 guys) will never let go and completely cross their arms.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Yes, I do allow the wheel to slide thru my hands - I prefer not to remove my hands from the wheel unless I am shifting. As soon as the shift is complete, my hands go right back to the wheel (unless I have to shift again very quickly).


Also, many drivers (especially F1 guys) will never let go and completely cross their arms.

Easier to do when the car has a paddle shifter.

[Rob Liebbe]

[quote="ShadowBoltI was watching Adam's video and he never really uses his right hand, it just slides up and down... ....Bad habit for sure!


JJ[/quote]

You gotta worry about how things can be taken out of context sometimes!!!!!

[jeffburch]

:)

[ShadowBolt]

[quote="ShadowBoltI was watching Adam's video and he never really uses his right hand, it just slides up and down... ....Bad habit for sure!


JJ

You gotta worry about how things can be taken out of context sometimes!!!!![/quote]


Only have to worry about it with the pervs Rob, only with the pervs.


JJ

[GlennCMC70]

wow, shuffling hands...... really?
i almost never need to give more than 90 degrees of input. 90% of the time its more like 45 degrees input. to me if the car needs more stearing input than that, the car needs to be loosened up some.

there is more than one way to turn the car. using the stearing wheel is the best known. the brakes, the gas pedal, and stiffer rear springs/swaybar is another. also more air in the rear tires in a pinch. dont forget wheel offset too (think wheel spacers).

just my .02.

[Boudy]

H/T is almost MANDATORY in a 4th gen.

If you downshift early, even if you rev match, engine braking combined with late braking will induce MASSIVE rear wheel hop and a subsequent spin...

Yep, he's right. Don't engine brake that damned 9 car. :oops:

Glenn: Drive a Fox, it's not like your F1 car.

rb

[Al Fernandez]

Speaking of F1 cars, during the last qualifying or practice session one of the announcers commented that Rubens Barrichello (now the most Sr. of the F1 drivers) is the only F1 driver that accelerates and brakes with his right foot. hmmmm Granted, these guys dont have clutches to deal with, but the point stands: less time is spent transitioning from one pedal to the next if you change which foot is using what pedal.

Now...in an AI/CMC car will that correlate to faster lap times? IMHO the answer is...drum roll...eventually. Meaning, after your hardware is sorted and the car is reacting the way you need it to, and after YOU are sorted and are a mean (not necessarily hairry) driving machine like the Jeffs 8)

[oz98cobra]

wow, shuffling hands...... really?
...

Glenn, you can instruct for me anytime - Mitch, you're fired! ;)

I'm joking of course, but any "shuffle steerer" who has ever been one of my students will know how much I beat them into submission until they get their hands glued at 9 & 3 - period - all the time - nooo, not even for this corner.

Hands at 9 & 3 - always unless you're dropping a hand to shift - is one of the essential basics of driving IMO, especially when during "out of control" situations. You will never be a really fast, consistent, driver without this simply because if your brain has to deal with the added step of where the hands are, you cannot react fast enough to keep the car under control when you're driving on the edge.

[GlennCMC70]

sweet! drop my pay checks off at PST.

[oz98cobra]

sweet! drop my pay checks off at PST.

You don't need a check - you need the track time to get your stale ass up to speed! ;)

[mitchntx]

wow, shuffling hands...... really?
...

Glenn, you can instruct for me anytime - Mitch, you're fired! ;)

I'm joking of course, but any "shuffle steerer" who has ever been one of my students will know how much I beat them into submission until they get their hands glued at 9 & 3 - period - all the time - nooo, not even for this corner.

Hands at 9 & 3 - always unless you're dropping a hand to shift - is one of the essential basics of driving IMO, especially when during "out of control" situations. You will never be a really fast, consistent, driver without this simply because if your brain has to deal with the added step of where the hands are, you cannot react fast enough to keep the car under control when you're driving on the edge.

Both of you get your head out of the sand. There are cars out there that don't quite have as quick steering as our cars ... like the GTO, a few models of "performance" Mercedes, CTS-V for example.

Maybe the both of you should get out of your stale cars and drive something different once in a while ... :wink:

So, KEEP your hands at 3/9 ... both of you are FIRED!

[Rob Liebbe]

driving machine like the Jeffs 8)

I just figured it out and I'm changing my name to Jeff Liebbe. Now I will dominate the series!!!!!!!

[oz98cobra]

....
Both of you get your head out of the sand. There are cars out there that don't quite have as quick steering as our cars ... like the GTO, a few models of "performance" Mercedes, CTS-V for example.

Maybe the both of you should get out of your stale cars and drive something different once in a while ... :wink:

So, KEEP your hands at 3/9 ... both of you are FIRED!

http://www.westwiltshire.gov.uk/Bins/fraud/pics/10.gif

Glenn must be the one with the tie cause I don't wear a pocket protector? :lol: