PDA

View Full Version : Check your wheels



BSharp
03-31-2008, 02:53 PM
Some of you know David Schwarze. yesterday at TWS he happened to look at his left rear wheel (Konig Villians) and noticed a crack. These were bought used and were used for two events.

mitchntx
03-31-2008, 03:07 PM
http://www.aicmctexas.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=22314#22314

See the last couple posts ..

BSharp
03-31-2008, 03:18 PM
He had mounted the tires a couple of days before, no cracks.

donovan
03-31-2008, 03:30 PM
Wow, that is scary looking!

DD

gt40
03-31-2008, 03:36 PM
Yikes! :shock:

Was this caught in the pits, or did he feel something on the track?

AI#97
03-31-2008, 03:54 PM
How appropriate that is cracked on the "made in Taiwan" stamp!!! LOL!!!

Wheels can crack no matter what brand they are. Those that are running the lightweights out there need to be more aware of it than normal. Glad he caught this as it could have been bad at TWS.

I will be keeping an eye on my konigs a little more than usual.


did Dave ever attribute this to an off or a curb hit during the event? Possibly a heat issue with his side exit exhaust right in front of the wheels?

AI#97
03-31-2008, 05:20 PM
See if Dave can/will cut the spoke on both sides of the crack so we can see the inside of the cracked area. A guy here in the office looked at the picture and has done a lot of fatigue failure analysis. He said it looks like the little "punched" spot at the bottom of the crack on the back side looks like it was a flaw during casting with a lot of porosity in the spoke... he said send over this way and he would give you a quick opinion on it!

oz98cobra
03-31-2008, 09:23 PM
...
Wheels can crack no matter what brand they are. Those that are running the lightweights out there need to be more aware of it than normal...

Actually Matt, most of the cast lightweights are made using a different casting process to regular heavy alloy wheels (centrifugal - the mold is spinning when the metal is cast) which supposedly reduces porosity and casting flaws, and makes them more like forged wheels - our Kosei and the Enkei are both made this way. Ironically, Enkei calls their technology the "MAT" process (which apparently means "most advanced tecnhology" :lol: )

But light weight means they are easily beat up, and the way we have been bending these things out of shape so far this year, they will all be toast long before they have had time to develop fatigue cracks :roll:

AI#97
04-01-2008, 09:16 AM
But light weight means they are easily beat up, and the way we have been bending these things out of shape so far this year, they will all be toast long before they have had time to develop fatigue cracks :roll:

Have you guys had more problems than just the incident in houston? That sucks.

I like my battleships for now. I got 8 konigs and 14 cobra R's right now and I am about to start selling off a few of the Fox R's and some used tires to make some room in the garage. Goal is to get down to one set of R58's and the two sets of konigs.

I did read some where that the R888's are about 12mm wider than our current RA1's so it looks like I may be shopping for 9.5" wheels to account for that next season? :cry:

dirwin
04-01-2008, 01:45 PM
Clamp a piece of brazing rod to your axle tube making sure that it is 90 degrees off the axle and 1/16" from the inside of the wheel. Take the car out and run it hard. With most wheels you will find that the flex is so great that you will find the rod will be about 1/4 in shorter, or mangled at the end of the run. Current off the shelf street wheels are not designed for, and can not handle a racing application of any type. Enkei is probably the best I have seen, as long as you are using their race cast wheels and not the street version of the same. We have fought some enormous wheel flex issues with the 5zigen FN01R-C and they are considered to be one of the best "race" wheels on the market. Some of the problem is the heavy cars, but they even flex on the Fox body. The bottom line is if you bend and flex any cast wheel over an over it will crack, and a racing application is extreme. One of the reasons we choose to inspect our wheels as often as we do is we decided to run cast wheels instead of forged (3-4 time the cost). Inspect cast wheels all the time and bend a few or run the risk of breaking $1000 Fiske or BBS forged 3 piece wheel? Our choice was cast wheels at $200 each. Why not Enkei? Little secret info coming here, the FN01R-C is the only sub 17 pound 17" production race wheel on the market that will clear 14" floating rotor, big caliper Brembo brakes with no modifications required to the caliper.

ShadowBolt
04-01-2008, 02:16 PM
WOW!

AI#97
04-01-2008, 02:29 PM
Clamp a piece of brazing rod to your axle tube making sure that it is 90 degrees off the axle and 1/16" from the inside of the wheel. Take the car out and run it hard. With most wheels you will find that the flex is so great that you will find the rod will be about 1/4 in shorter, or mangled at the end of the run. Current off the shelf street wheels are not designed for, and can not handle a racing application of any type. Enkei is probably the best I have seen, as long as you are using their race cast wheels and not the street version of the same. We have fought some enormous wheel flex issues with the 5zigen FN01R-C and they are considered to be one of the best "race" wheels on the market. Some of the problem is the heavy cars, but they even flex on the Fox body. The bottom line is if you bend and flex any cast wheel over an over it will crack, and a racing application is extreme. One of the reasons we choose to inspect our wheels as often as we do is we decided to run cast wheels instead of forged (3-4 time the cost). Inspect cast wheels all the time and bend a few or run the risk of breaking $1000 Fiske or BBS forged 3 piece wheel? Our choice was cast wheels at $200 each. Why not Enkei? Little secret info coming here, the FN01R-C is the only sub 17 pound 17" production race wheel on the market that will clear 14" floating rotor, big caliper Brembo brakes with no modifications required to the caliper.

Dem's be the wheels I be lookin' at!!! ;)

Just a matter of finding the right offset but it may come down to buying the 10" wide rim and having it narrowed... :shock:

oz98cobra
04-01-2008, 04:24 PM
How you gonna narrow that cast wheel Matt? angle grinder and 5 minute epoxy? :lol:

We researched the 5Zigens before we bought the Koseis - for the FN01C-Rs in 17x9 we found weights published between 17.4 and 19.4 lbs each depending on whose website you were? Have you found them to be lighter Dave?

Seem there may be 2 versions - the regular and "Hot Version" but I'm not sure if they are different weights or not?

BTW, for an SN95 Mustang, you would need the 35mm offset with half inch spacers.

GlennCMC70
04-01-2008, 04:30 PM
Clamp a piece of brazing rod to your axle tube making sure that it is 90 degrees off the axle and 1/16" from the inside of the wheel. Take the car out and run it hard. With most wheels you will find that the flex is so great that you will find the rod will be about 1/4 in shorter, or mangled at the end of the run. Current off the shelf street wheels are not designed for, and can not handle a racing application of any type. Enkei is probably the best I have seen, as long as you are using their race cast wheels and not the street version of the same. We have fought some enormous wheel flex issues with the 5zigen FN01R-C and they are considered to be one of the best "race" wheels on the market. Some of the problem is the heavy cars, but they even flex on the Fox body. The bottom line is if you bend and flex any cast wheel over an over it will crack, and a racing application is extreme. One of the reasons we choose to inspect our wheels as often as we do is we decided to run cast wheels instead of forged (3-4 time the cost). Inspect cast wheels all the time and bend a few or run the risk of breaking $1000 Fiske or BBS forged 3 piece wheel? Our choice was cast wheels at $200 each. Why not Enkei? Little secret info coming here, the FN01R-C is the only sub 17 pound 17" production race wheel on the market that will clear 14" floating rotor, big caliper Brembo brakes with no modifications required to the caliper.

could any of this "flex" be accounted for by the slop in the C clips on the ends of the axels? i know 4th gen F-bodies have some major play back and forth.

donovan
04-01-2008, 04:31 PM
There are companies out there that do it.

Back in the day I remember people having the 95 Cobra R's made into 11" wheels by some company in Florida.

Here is an example of what some people are doing too...
http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37598

DD

AI#97
04-01-2008, 06:03 PM
How you gonna narrow that cast wheel Matt? angle grinder and 5 minute epoxy? :lol:

We researched the 5Zigens before we bought the Koseis - for the FN01C-Rs in 17x9 we found weights published between 17.4 and 19.4 lbs each depending on whose website you were? Have you found them to be lighter Dave?

Seem there may be 2 versions - the regular and "Hot Version" but I'm not sure if they are different weights or not?

BTW, for an SN95 Mustang, you would need the 35mm offset with half inch spacers.

There are companies here in Dallas that have been widening wheels for years. It's about $125 per wheel and takes two full sets to make it happen...however, narrowing them would be easier and only require one set. Manny up at HPP has a set of 99 Cobras that have been narrowed to like 5" and he runs 'skinnies' on them. Looks stock from a distance till you step around front. Only thing I don't know is how durable they are and how the welding reacts to the heat cycles we put them through. Might be a bad solution?

Your calc on the backspace/spacer sounds about right from what I worked out a few months ago...IIRC... :oops:

Honestly though, I need to feel the difference from the 25lb 20th century battleships I have on my car and the New Age lightweights to really see if I can justify the expense. I do see a need for 9.5" wheels next year though to take advantage of the R888 being wider especially have Lyons said that he thought that Donovan had another 1/4" of contact patch due to the 9.5" compared to 9.0" wheels... Figure that in with the additional 1/2 of section on the R888 and start looking for lap times to drop! :shock:

dirwin
04-01-2008, 07:07 PM
17x9 35mm offset with 1/4" spacers will fit the big brakes on the 05's and push you out to exactly 74.5" with up to -4 degrees camber. Matt, the bigger the spacer the more clearance you have for the wheels. The only problem is they flex quite a bit.

Every one that I have weighed with no balance weights has been 16.7-16.9 pounds.

Glenn, the slack in the c-clips allow the axle lateral movement, the flex I am referring is the relation between the rim and the wheel center.

donovan
04-01-2008, 11:13 PM
Lyons :x said that he thought that Donovan had another 1/4" of contact patch due to the 9.5" compared to 9.0" wheels... Figure that in with the additional 1/2 of section on the R888 and start looking for lap times to drop! :shock:

It only looks like that... optical illusion... :wink:

DD

cjlmlml
04-02-2008, 12:28 PM
Not sure what the verdict is on these things. FN01Rc

I did check on becoming a dealer. pretty good discount with initial buy in.


Dont know if these would be strong enough though, It would suck to buy them, get em narrowed and then break em.


More info, contact me.

AI#97
04-02-2008, 12:59 PM
Not sure what the verdict is on these things. FN01Rc

I did check on becoming a dealer. pretty good discount with initial buy in.


Dont know if these would be strong enough though, It would suck to buy them, get em narrowed and then break em.


More info, contact me.

I look at it this way. I have about $1400 invested in the 22 wheels I have right now. Most I have put 3 seasons on, some 5 seasons, a couple were purchased from this group which means they haven't had easy lives. I have lost only two in 5 years due to one wheel coming off and the other was spinning over the backside of the curb at bus stop at MSRH which only barely bent the wheel but trashed the axle :oops:

I really like the idea of $200-250 lightweight wheels and all but if you blow through 3 or 4 a year due to failures...sort of hurts the wallet. I think I will stick with my King Kong Anvils for now. I have had my hands on the FN01RC's and the spokes are REALLY thin. The konigs at $170 ea is still a great wheel and has proven itself in our series over time.

I think I will let you guys do some more testing and research for alternatives before I go jump in!

michaelmosty
04-02-2008, 01:05 PM
I have lost only two in 5 years due to one wheel coming off
Holy cow, you had a wheel come off!!!!! :shock:
Wow, it would be cool to see a video of that! :lol:

cjlmlml
04-02-2008, 01:26 PM
Case Closed


17x8 = 17 lbs

17x10 = 21 lbs

dirwin
04-02-2008, 02:33 PM
Trust me, I wouldn't run the 5zigen if it wasn't the only wheel that clears the big 4 pot Brembo brakes. While I have never stress cracked one, the flex is too great. Now, if you run across some old FN01R-F's at anything close to a reasonable price and they fit, buy them. They are the forged version and one of the strongest race wheels made and a 17x9 was less than 15lbs. Big problem was they were very expensive, up there close to the BBS range and didn't sell well so they quit making them. Great wheel though.

RichardP
12-02-2010, 08:06 PM
At my last track event at TWS I found a big crack in one of my Konig wheels. There was no noise or vibration to clue me into this pending disaster. A closer examination found several small cracks starting in several spokes in multiple wheels. To prepare for the weekend I had flipped the tires on the rims so they had been cleaned and inspected very recently.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4144/5227876176_1d11c6646b_z.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4129/5227876186_0be606eff4_z.jpg

This is no real news as this seems to be the typical failure for these rims when they have reached the end of their life. This is just a reminder that stuff wears out and bad things could happen if you don't keep an eye out.

This is just the price you pay when you drive like I do... FLAT OUT!!! :)


Time to get the JB Weld out... :shock:


Richard P.

Crumpacker
12-02-2010, 10:15 PM
Time to get the JB Weld out... :shock:

Richard P.


JB Weld gets so messy... duct tape ought to do it, its even the right color.

Good catch Richard.

RichardP
07-05-2013, 04:32 PM
Just a reminder to keep checking the critical bits of your race car. At Hallett, I found cracks in the replacement set of Konig wheels that I had picked up for cheap after the failure of my last set. This set of wheels had approximately 17 track days on them before the cracks started to propagate.

More interesting this time was the way that I found the cracks. I had cleaned my wheels with a citrus degreaser a couple of days before the event. While inspecting the wheels during a tire swap on Saturday, I had found that the brake dust was more attracted to the degreaser that had wicked into the cracks. It highlighted the cracks nicely. Wiping away the brake dust showed no visible cracks.

It was a bit disconcerting that I had three sessions of racing at Hallett left to go in the weekend without any replacement wheels but my past experience has shown that I had a bit more time left on the wheels. After those three sessions, the cracks are now barely visible by eye, BTW…

Anyway, that’s my track tip for the day. Clean your wheels right before the event with a citrus degreaser and watch the brake dust for potential failures.


Richard P.

David Love AI27
07-13-2013, 02:15 PM
before the cracks started to propagate.


Seriously? "propagate"?...

Leave it to the "rocket man"... like a sound bite after the last shuttle disaster... "Everything was going as planned till crap started to propagate"...

ShadowBolt
07-14-2013, 09:35 PM
Seriously? "propagate"?...

Leave it to the "rocket man"... like a sound bite after the last shuttle disaster... "Everything was going as planned till crap started to propagate"...

Not sure that one is fair David. Certainly not true.

JJ

David Love AI27
07-18-2013, 01:23 PM
Not sure that one is fair David. Certainly not true.

JJ

I had a long conversation with someone from NASA the other day... He was trying really hard to convince me that they really had no idea that the wing was damaged... I couldn't believe he would say that... it was all over the TV... maybe I'm wrong...