NASA CCR's and section 27.12

[GlennCMC70]

27.12 Driver’s Points System
The IRB shall elect a “Pointskeeper” for the sake of keeping track of on track violations
and penalties. Because the faults and/or penalties may be appealed, no results shall be
official until personally approved by the Race Director, and/or published in The Penalty
Box section of Speednews. The Pointskeeper will keep a tally on the accumulation of
driver’s points for each driver. The following are guidelines for assigning points.
1. Contact bumper to bumper with no deviation and no damage: No points
2. Any sheet metal contact with no damage and no deviation: One (1) point each
3. Any contact causing deviation, with no damage, but loss of a position: Three (3)
points for the offender, one (1) point for the other driver.
4. Any contact resulting in “damage” as defined by these guidelines: Three (3) points
for the offender, one (1) point for the other driver.
5. Any contact resulting in a “punt” as defined by these guidelines: Three (3) points for
the offender, one (1) point for the other driver.
6. Any contact resulting in damage and punt: Three (3) points for the offender, one (1)
point for the other driver.
7. Passing under a standing yellow or double yellow: Two (2) points
8. Passing under waving yellow and/or over-driving any yellow: Three (3) points
27.12.1 Point Limit- Annual
Any driver accumulating ten (10) points during the season (January-December) shall be
required to appear before the IRB. The IRB shall review the driving record of the
offending driver and take appropriate action. Appropriate action may range from a
warning to suspension or a recommendation to the Race Director for exclusion from a
series or even expulsion from NASA.

how does everyone feel about implementing this system?
should we adjust the points penalties up or down?
is 10 points too much or should we move it to 5?
its very likely this will get put into use (all past 2008 events will be included). the main problem is the lack of clear penalties for hitting the "10" points. its a little too subjective.

lets kick this around and talk about it.
if we had been using this system for allof 2008, would it have impacted the amount of contact we have had? i do not know of anyone who would be close to being impacted by this at this point in time. am i wrong?

[donovan]

is this system for only IRB decisions or any contact?

[GlennCMC70]

any and every contact is covered in that rule. even bumper to bumper zero damage contact. some instances above result in a zero point penalty and other do not.

FYI - John Goerge mentioned to us Directors that a system should be put into place like the above rule. not sure why i didnt realize there was already one. not sure if John knew either. i liked his idea when he presented it and once Al pointed out to me there already was one, i sought it out. i think its a good rule and we should start using it.

in fact, i think a "Penalty Box" tab on the points sheet is a good place to keep this info.

[Boudy]

Personally, I like it. However, I think every driver here earns 5 points in a season. You would have to put the IRB on salary. 10 is probably a good place to start.

Boudy

[RichardP]

in fact, i think a "Penalty Box" tab on the points sheet is a good place to keep this info.


We could make up little red numbers and have people pin them to their driver's suit. That way we would have a reminder on grid of who we needed to be careful of. :D


Richard P.

[mitchntx]

27.12.1 Point Limit- Annual
Any driver accumulating ten (10) points during the season (January-December) shall be
required to appear before the IRB. The IRB shall review the driving record of the
offending driver and take appropriate action. Appropriate action may range from a
warning to suspension or a recommendation to the Race Director for exclusion from a
series or even expulsion from NASA.[/i]



If implemented in January, I would have accumulated 6 points to date.

#7 2 points - passed under standing yellow In Cresson
#2 1 points - bumped Steve in rear at Cresson exchanging paint
#4 3 points - nerfed a sight-seeing stock car at TWS

As long as this doesn't become a "Kangaroo Court" and have no meaning, no consequences, no favoritism, no extenuating circumstances, no questions, no appeals ... just the facts ... I have no problem with implementing this.

But realize, reporting of "minor" contact, like my rubbing Steve, will cease.

Also, confessing of contact will stop. And some folks will resort to denial when accused of it, requiring more intense investigation.

Like any attempt to police, indict, prosecute and render a verdict, there will have to be proof beyond a reasonable doubt. So expect to spend a lot more time investigating and gathering evidence. Also, when verdicts are rendered, expect animosity to grow amongst the drivers and towards IRB participants.

Just some things to ponder when implemnting something like this.

[GlennCMC70]

one thing to note - at Nationals in 2007, if you were reported by a corner worker or another driver for contact and you didnt turn in a contact report w/in 30 minutes, you faced a DQ. there was no Director coming to you to ask for it. that meant if one driver turned one in, and the other didnt, be ready for the DQ.
contact hasnt gotten anywhere near that type of requirement, but those methods are in place to ensure we all play by the same rules. so the "dont say anything and i wont" mentality will not always work.

these are not scare tactics.
all i'm doing is asking what you guys think about the rules we already have in the CCR's. do we need to implement this rule?
are we to a point where a little more heat is put on the minor contacts along w/ the major stuff?

remember how you all felt towards the ASC car that hit Jeff and what you thought that driver should be penalized w/. consider it a possibility of that being her first ever contact. alot of you felt very harsh penalties were in order. apply those same feelings to those w/in this group.

[jeffburch]

BS.
Who's to say I wouldn't fill one out on you at Nats.
Wasn't any contact, but I said we had at the kink (where we almost did).
You don't know I did, you go home?
BS.
Less gov't is better. The system now, works.
Author of previous post just having fun. :wink: :roll:

jb

[mitchntx]

If I were Landrum, Leibbe, Wirtz, Burch, Varner, Manor or others who have sustained heavy damage, then yes ... implement immediateyl and hell, make it retroactive.

But having never sustained serious body damage, I'm rather tepid on this.

Who, other than George, Manor Varner and Bell has a problem with the way things are being run today? Don't misunderstand that question ... I'm not accusing anyone of anything. But those are the guys who left under some sort of circumstance that wasn't obviously apparent. So it must be something about the way the group is run or those who participate in it.

So there are going to be 2 camps, as I see it. Yet another dividing line for this group.

This isn't a simple thing ...

Is implemntation based upon a vote of all points compiling drivers this year? last year? since AI/CMC was formed in Texas? Is it a simple majority vote?

What investigative training will IRB members be given? How will it be tracked? If someone is going to pass this kind of serious judgement against me, then they best be qualified.

Are you (we) sure this is the road we want to travel? This suspiciously sounds like generated drama ...

[GlennCMC70]

i'm getting a feeling about you guys not liking it.
just thought i would ask.

[AllZWay]

It sounds interesting, but I think it could lead to bigger problems.

I have personally talked to all that have had minor contact with me and I have no problems with our resolution.

I think relationship problems would begin to occur under the above rules.

[AI#97]

I thought you guys were already using this system all along because it was in the CCR's...? Guess since I have never had any car to car contact, I haven't a clue what you guys do in an IRB....? I like the idea of the system but it does seem a little like the "scarlet letter".

I think we do a pretty good job policing ourselves and given the fact those who regularly race in this series respect one another enough to do right by the other driver if there is contact. I think it just piles on some un-necessary pressure.

What I might suggest is that the directors continue to use the current system we all know and accept, then keep notes for trends in contact and address them on a one to one basis maybe during the evening at an event, or offline. There is no reason to call one of us out in front of the group and embarrass them. I think EVERYONE in this group is Man enough and has the right attitude to take constructive criticism from our directors if they see fit to make that call of "let's talk"....

My fear is you will spend more time in IRB's dealing with specific cases when in actuality, you could do the one on one during the current IRB for the contact in the post decision de-briefing.

eh, just rambling on here with random thoughts.... :lol:

[GlennCMC70]

point taken guys. we will move on.
thanks for the input.

[Todd Covini]

You guys are overworking this.
The CCR is in place...the mechanism is already there.
Just because we don't keep a running tally and publish the "penalty points standings" every month doesn't necessarily mean it isn't being used.

Drivers have been suspended from NASA for contact.
Drivers have been DQ'd for contact.
Drivers have been repositioned for contact.
Drivers have been placed on probation for incidents.
Drivers have been involved in racing incidents deemed as "unavoidable contact".

Every circumstance is different and you can't put everyone in the "contact bucket" and expect the same result/determination. All the above situations were reviewed by an official who determined that there was a prudent consequence for the actions. Just because someone doesn't agree with the decisions made doesn't mean that decisions weren't made. Racers have a choice to either accept the decision or appeal the decision...and (hate to say it but) in the end, the official (at whatever level) will have the final say as to what the consequence will be for body contact, not the racer.

This year I've been harping on all the series directors to use the logbook more liberally and notate activity/infractions more. If contact of ANY kind occurs series directors should be noting logbooks with a brief description.

Multiple-contact drivers get real popular real fast and all it takes is some basic math and a quick glance back at the logbook to see if someone has been involved in a high number of contacts (or is in danger of exceeding the magic 10). This also helps cross-regional policing as well because every logbook is reviewed/signed at each event by a series/race director. (Hint- If your logbook has contact noted for every event you go to, the official signing your logbook will likely take note and be watching you closely.)

So...we may have to play with toy cars again at all driver meetings until folks truly understand the rules of the road. :wink: The more times we hear it, the better we'll all understand that contact and unsportsmanlike conduct is not welcome at NASA.

...but please no more "new rules" guys....we have plenty already. :lol:

-=- Todd

[cjlmlml]

Mitch , you also bumped me in post race tech while I was waiting to get weighed. Add that in.

[AI#97]

Mitch , you also bumped me in post race tech while I was waiting to get weighed. Add that in.

Was this the additional "post-race incident" that Clifton was on a tear about?! How embarrassing to have "out of class" contact... :oops: :wink: :lol:

[GlennCMC70]

it was Spec Miata post race "paybacks".

[mitchntx]

Mitch , you also bumped me in post race tech while I was waiting to get weighed. Add that in.


[i]27.12 Driver’s Points System
The IRB shall elect a “Pointskeeper” for the sake of keeping track of on track violations
and penalties.

"Ah the bliss is strong with this one it is."

http://www.f.kth.se/~markdahl/kittyyoda.jpg

[jeffburch]

:D

jb

[AI#97]

it was Spec Miata post race "paybacks".

Just curious, was oberndorfer sp? involved in that? Been hearing a lot of rumors that he was going to be taken out because of the repeated carnage he had been intentionally causing. I feel we have a support structure in place to prevent that from ever even coming close to happening within this group. Does SM not have that luxury?

[cjlmlml]

Ok, Mitch, maybe this covers it.


23.1 Participant Conduct - Expectations
It is expected that every participant and driver (entrant) at a NASA sanctioned event
shall conduct themselves according to the highest standards of behavior and
sportsmanship, particularly in their relationship with other drivers and Officials, and in a
manner that shall not be detrimental to the reputation of NASA. Failure to do so may
result in harsh penalties.


Or this:

23.1.2 Unsportsmanlike Conduct


Any unsportsmanlike conduct, on any scale, is not welcome at NASA events. Acts of
unsportsmanlike conduct have many forms such as arguing, yelling, intimidation,
aggressive physical contact, and losing without grace. Other forms are willfully using
non-performance technicalities to hurt another competitor’s point standings to the benefit
of one’s own, “sandbagging,” and failing to report a mistake in scoring that benefits
themselves. No form of unsportsmanlike conduct will be tolerated at any NASA event.
Competitors that show poor sportsmanship due to a mistake in judgment will be
educated, and punished if necessary. However, competitors that commit repeated acts
of unsportsmanlike conduct cannot be educated; therefore expulsion is most likely the
only remedy.


Or maybe this:

27.8 The Melee’
Whenever a melee’ occurs, or there is a case involving more than two drivers, try to
access the situation based on the actions of the driver that started it. When penalties
are issued to the offending driver that started the melee, they should only count the
124
original incident. The other cars that were involved are considered to be collateral
damage.



Wiggle out of that Meleee man.

[mitchntx]

Wiggle out of that Meleee man


http://cutelittlekittens.com/files/images/general/575_clk_159.jpg

I surrender ... I think you got me, sheriff.

But I don't blame you ... you were just doing your job.

[BryanL]

I just don't see how this is a new rule since it is in the CCR? As a rookie I guess I need to be told what rules in the CCR we follow and which ones we don't? Kind of like I know the speed limit was 65 on the way to TWS so I never went under 65.
I find it interesting that Boudy says most drivers would earn 5 points per season. I'm not picking on Boudy. Just pointing out that he believes most drivers would definitely have contact multiple times.
Mitch quickly stating 6 names and others who have sustained heavy damage seems like a high number considering the size of our run groups. He listed only CMC drivers so it seems like 25% of the drivers have sustained heavy damage? Does that sound right?
I don't have a good understanding of why certain people have left the series. I understand there will always be people coming and going. It does make me wonder if some people would like to run with us but have never come run with us because there is too much carnage?
I have to admit I am somewhat confused. I certainly don't have any idea of what happens or what the repercussions of contact really are. As a rookie coming in and following what happens I feel I was conditioned to accept that contact would happen at some point. Then on the flip side there isn't suppossed to be any contact.
Bryan

[AI#97]

Brian, to put it simply, there are those that feel any contact is reason to hang up their driving suit and stay home and watch their herb gardens. Racing just isn't for them...and they leave, great, just leave peacefully and don't rag on the group to others because YOU make a decision for YOU to leave. No need to get the rest of the world to co-miserate with you to make you feel more justified in your decision because you are just robbing them of the fun they could be having.

Others in this GREAT group of drivers, understand the risks vs. reward, have weighted them in their minds, and have made a decision to stay because this is just the funnest shit you can do as an adult!!! Really it is rare that anyone leaves a weekend without a smile on their face.

As for the CCR's, we follow EVERY one that is currently printed. Each may carry different weight or receive different levels of attention, but as a driver in NASA, you are required to adhere to every one of them at any time you are behind the wheel, and with regards to sportsmanship, while off track and off line even in the way you represent NASA if you want to keep a comp license. Trust me, I was once warned from National about my "opinions" and in hind sight, I was wrong.

Contact is a fact in racing...preventing it at all costs is our goal. Preventing contact for any reason is your job as a driver. The only other Prime responsibility you have as a driver is have a fucking awesome time for your efforts.

Adjust all the above to make things work for yourself and see you at the next event!

[mitchntx]

Bryan,

I am thinking we are doing you a terrible disservice by segregating CMC and CMC2.

One of the strong suits that NASA-Tx has is it's ability to race in traffic. I think that is why Texas has done so well at a NAtional level.

BY splitting the starts with us 3 always in the back, by qual or by invert, you don't have an opportunity to gain that valuable experience.

The data processing rate when in a pack of cars is astronaumical. Not only do you have to make adjustments based upon what the cars in front of are doing, you have know how those adjustments will affect the racers behind you. Every action has several reactions that ripple all through the field.

While according to the bible you have every right to a particular line, the "situational awareness" required to avoid contact still falls within the context of CCR and club racing. You might not be deemed at fault, but your actions started a chain of events that culminated in contact.

I'm not saying you or anyone is guilty of this. Just explaining how a lack of experience can create a less than desirable karma.

So, maybe we need to re-think the way we've been gridding so that all racers can get the exposure they need to be competitive.

[rpoz27]

(This is Martin on Misty's account)

Mitch, you bring up an interesting point. In group 7, I have to race with a lot of different car types, all gridded by qual times. I think it has helped me as a driver (even though I occasionally bitch about it) because I've had to figure out how to use the different characteristics of the other cars to my advantage (and to my class competitor's disadvantage). Racing with mixed classes opens up some opportunities if you have the right frame of mind about it, and racing with traffic is always more fun than being out there alone.

[dirwin]

Matt,

funnest or funniest? :lol: Don't blast me, I am go grammer or spelling expert, I just couldn't resist. And I know what you meant. Putting a race car on the track is one of the most enjoyable things you can do and at times this can be some of the funniest shit you have ever seen.

Brian,

All the directors I know hold to the letter of the law with the CCR and it is the drivers responsibility to know what the CCR says. Different topics get focused on with varying intensity and that is mainly due to the different perspectives people have of what they see going on. The old saying it isn't wrong, it is just different, while applicable in a lot of the discussions of opinions around here, it is not always heeded. It is not to say that some disregard others opinions, it is just to say that some have some very sore spots and some others enjoy to take a stick to those sore spots. Matt is right, if you are going to play this game you have to weigh the risks vs rewards, and if the risks outweigh the the rewards, thats okay, this ain't for everyone. If, on the other hand, it is the other way around, there really are a bunch of great guys and gals around that share the same feeling and this can be some of the "funnest" times you can have with some really great, and different, people.

Dave

[dirwin]

I especially like all of the cat pictures Mitch comes up with. Mitch you must have them sorted into emotional categories, too funny.

[GlennCMC70]

those are Mitchs "kids".
he's a lonely ol' man.

[jeffburch]

Matt and David. great stuff.
These are the times of our lives.

Has anyone ever EVER seen a (any) race without any sort of contact?

In other regions they do the Thunder/Lightning deal.
Knuckle draggers vs. Cake Eaters.
A lot of mixed class racing and I've always felt this was the way to do it.

jb

[AllZWay]

I'll echo some of these guys. I don't want contact nor can I afford contact.

However, as a driver I know I am not perfect and I don't expect those around me to be perfect....(just expect them to try as hard as me to not have contact).

Should a pattern of contact arise by any particular driver, I feel very confident that Todd, Al, Glenn, David and NASA will follow the rules and punish those that aren't capable of racing under the rules.)

For those that can't handle the real facts that contact will eventually bite everyone...there is always DE's and even then contact occasionally happens.

[Boudy]

Bryan: Here's another perspective that might help. By design, CMC is very close quarters racing. Hell, if all things were as equal as the intent of the series, we'd all be piled up in every turn trying to get away from the pack. You just don't have the HP or brakes to do what some classes can. You must fight and claw for every inch and the racing is closer and tighter as a result. And yes it is racing, not DE. It is 100% impossible to participate in W2W racing with zero contact. It just can't happen. You're trying to apply threshold braking at 90 mph and take it 5 feet deeper than the guy in front of you while trying to get back on the gas just a little earlier than him and pushing your tires to the very limit of grip on exit. We are 12 inches from each other quite often, that's racing. Our CCR is written to provide the cleanest and safest racing possible. There are guidlines and criteria to offer competitive racing with minimum contact but we make mistakes, miscalculations, emotional corrections, and just plain brain farts. We're human, we're amatures, and we're driving cars as close to the edge of their/our limits as we can. Contact will happen, it's a given.

None of us here wants to hit another car or get hit for that matter. I don't like or condone it but unless one is totally nieve or stupid it has to be understood as a possibility in W2W racing. The checks and balances that are in place to discuss these situations, review them, and issue penalties as appropriate seems to work very well in my opinion. I don't really care if it's more diligently documented as proposed in the CCR quoted above if you're prepared for more documentation, more headaches, and an IRB on salary. My only comment was that 5 points to go see the principle was probably unrealistic when you get a point assigned when somebody else dives in an tags you as I did Al last year. Oops, 3 points for me and 1 for Al... Sorry Al.

I'm really trying to figure out where this is going. Most here can agree as Todd stated, "The system works fine." Will this make CMC a better series for us or will it give a few volunteers so much extra work that they no longer want to participate.

rb

[Adam Ginsberg]

Here's the really funny part about all of this. We go through the same thing. Every. Single. Season.

There's more I'd like to add, but I have to close the laptop and board a plane for ORD>CMH. Have a good night, folks.

[ShadowBolt]

I (like Bryan) thought the whole idea of this post was Glenn saying we were not following a part of the CCR?

In my mind in club racing if you have a choice between finishing in front or behind the guy in front of you and the only way to get in front of him is to make a very risky move then you don't do it and you finish behind the guy or pressure him to make a mistake and then get by. To me this is the difference in club racing and pro racing. Am I right or do you make the risky move and hope you don't hit him because this is racing......club or pro? Bryan and I (and maybe others) would like to know the mindset of the guys that race with us on this? There is no right or wrong answer but we would just like to know.


JJ

[jeffburch]

THAT'S EXACTLY how it's supposed to be.
See http://www.texicanracing.com/nasatx/JeffBurch/07_Nats_Sun_Med..wmv

jb

[mitchntx]

I (like Bryan) thought the whole idea of this post was Glenn saying we were not following a part of the CCR?

In my mind in club racing if you have a choice between finishing in front or behind the guy in front of you and the only way to get in front of him is to make a very risky move then you don't do it and you finish behind the guy or pressure him to make a mistake and then get by. To me this is the difference in club racing and pro racing. Am I right or do you make the risky move and hope you don't hit him because this is racing......club or pro? Bryan and I (and maybe others) would like to know the mindset of the guys that race with us on this? There is no right or wrong answer but we would just like to know.


JJ

Interesting points and a points well taken. Humor me for a moment and let me give you my perspective ...

As a driver becomes more experienced and the group becomes more comfortable with said driver, the closer the racing becomes because of a "comfort" zone we all share.

So a "risky" move on someone you have raced against many times and have confidence in their predictability is less of a real "risk" than someone who is new to the group.

It has very little to do with skill, rather confidence.

There are some folks I will race side by side with through turns and some I won't.

Make sense?

Also, realize that part of a 20 minute sprint race is in reality 13-15 minutes of actual, green flag racing. That translates into 6 laps at TWS.

So, if I'm faster than you in a particular corner, I only have 6 or fewer chances to get past you. All the while, the train ahead is getting smaller and smaller.

So, by design, more risks are taken in a 20 minute race than in a 40. This is part of the "factoring" a driver takes into account when in a battle.

Don't misunderstand ... you have every right to the line as it's outlined in the CCR. Just do your own cost/benefit analysis when taking that line, that's all. Because you are right ... this is club racing and in reality, finishing order doesn't mean all that much.

Jerry, you and I are quite similar in that we have similar goals for a given weekend. Just take into account that other's have different goals. Some folks are just more competitive in nature than I am and I assume you as well. Although, I do have my moments ... I guess we all do.

Is it right? Is it wrong?

It's only wrong when contact occurs. Otherwise, it's considered, close, hard racing. It's a fine ... VERY fine line.

I know you are discouraged. But I encourage you to take away something positive from your experiences. Learn from the "mistakes" made, whether yours, theirs or shared. It'll make you a better driver.

And don't get so caught up in lap times or finishing order. If anyone should be discouraged it should be me. I'm running in a class that allows 30 more HP and bigger tires and I'm still 3 seconds off the pace. :x

[rpoz27]

I know you are discouraged. But I encourage you to take away something positive from your experiences. Learn from the "mistakes" made, whether yours, theirs or shared. It'll make you a better driver.

And don't get so caught up in lap times or finishing order. If anyone should be discouraged it should be me. I'm running in a class that allows 30 more HP and bigger tires and I'm still 3 seconds off the pace. :x

What Mitch said. Only I've got 60 more HP (and I won't get specific on how much more torque because it's too embarrassing) and I'm barely on pace for CMC. It's an AI car. WTF?!?!?!? But I have a freakin' blast every weekend. Even when I spend it crankin' on the car and getting nowhere. Even when I know that I can jump in Martin's BMW and stay on pace with GTS and possibly podium (which I have done), I stick with y'all because it's the funnest. BTW, thanks for the new word, Matt.

[Al Fernandez]

Interestingly enough Glenn and I were having a chat just yesterday afternoon where I posed to him my thinking that the leading car has a huge influence on the chances of contact based on how difficult they are making themselves to pass.

You as a driver are deciding (knowingly or not! :lol: ) whether the percentage chance of success of a passing attempt is sufficient to justify the cost of failure. Everyone's tolerance for that percentage will be different. I myself stick to high percentage moves; I am pretty damn certain I'll pull it off if I stick my nose in there. That is also part of the reason you dont find me on the podium very often I suppose. I get behind someone who I'm slightly faster than...but boy they just are driving clean and fast and there are no good opportunities...

I have seen drivers regularly jump on really low percentage moves, basically relying on the other car to move...banking on the fact that the other guy doesnt want contact so he'll give room. These guys find themselves the subject of IRBs all the time, and it doesnt take long before the incremental penalties start coming down...DQs, suspensions, suspended licenses. I've seen 'em all.

Your style is your choice. I think most in here probably consider themselves in the "low risk taker" category...except their definition of "low" might be twisted! :lol: :wink: [/i]

[ShadowBolt]

I (like Bryan) thought the whole idea of this post was Glenn saying we were not following a part of the CCR?

In my mind in club racing if you have a choice between finishing in front or behind the guy in front of you and the only way to get in front of him is to make a very risky move then you don't do it and you finish behind the guy or pressure him to make a mistake and then get by. To me this is the difference in club racing and pro racing. Am I right or do you make the risky move and hope you don't hit him because this is racing......club or pro? Bryan and I (and maybe others) would like to know the mindset of the guys that race with us on this? There is no right or wrong answer but we would just like to know.


JJ Because you are right ... this is club racing and in reality, finishing order doesn't mean all that much. :x

You make some good points Mitch. I have to say I never even thought about the difference between club and pro racing until this post and the deleted one came about.

So where is the currect spreadsheet (showing points that have been given out for contact)?

I thought you said above in this post that we were not doing this right now.
JJ

[GlennCMC70]

we are not doing "contact points" yet. we have never done them in the 3+ years i've been involved.

[BryanL]

Jerry really said it well about knowing the mindset of who we are running with. This is just another area of things that I am learning about which wasn't covered in DE/Racecraft.

Mitch-I don't think you have done me any disservice by starting behind CMC. I can honestly tell you that I wasn't ready to start a race at the front of the field. I still would have asked to be at the back as I didn't feel I had enough experience after 4 races and only 4 weekends experience prior to racing. I do agree that it can be an invaluable lesson in learning to deal with traffic though I do wonder how often contact is made during an invert versus a normal field based on qualifying?

I agree with JB that it is tons of fun. Though I do find it interesting that JB doesn't remember a race without contact. Nice video JB-nice clean passes on the cobra's and the guy behind you didn't risk a move that might take both of you out. You say that is how it is suppossed to be but it seems that isn't how it usually happens.

It does seem that everyone has accepted that contact is going to happen to them and contact will happen in every race and is just something everyone has to deal with in their own terms. Whether its because I tried a low percentage move, my tire went flat, I can't control my car, the other guy cut me off, I was just mad and punted someone, etc. really doesn't seem to matter as it is just a mistake and a part of racing.
It seems to really come down to how many or how bad the mistakes are? One could look at the Spec Miata's from the Houston race in which 7 cars were damaged and 3 had to be on flatbeds and say that is acceptable as that is racing. While others may feel any contact is unacceptable. Its just where is the line in the sand drawn?

I am just learning how the "system" operates and what the repercussions are. Which leads me to money. In the event of contact does anyone ever have to pay to fix another persons car? Does anyone make a riskier move on a person because their car or the car they are passing already has damage and it won't matter as much compared to a car that is spotless?

Mitch-I understand your last post but humor me. Since there are some drivers that you aren't comfortable running side by side with. Is it safe to assume that you may let certain drivers by as you are afraid they may hit you? If so I think that driver has a definite unfair advantage?? This is somewhat along the lines of what Al stated. I am curious if the person who makes a low percentage move on someone who doesn't want contact really is the subject of IRB's. Or do they slide by because someone doesn't want to risk being hit or that if contact does occur it is chalked up to a racing incident and par for the course? I had never thought of this until some of these posts and remembering that I did a point by at TWS as I wasn't sure about the person behind me.

Bryan

[mitchntx]

So where is the currect spreadsheet (showing points that have been given out for contact)?

JJ

I was just curious where I stood if we were counting and posted the results. There is nothing official as far as I know.

And then Chris wanted to start counting things like door dings ...


And I'm glad you brought up Club vs Pro racing.

I'm as guilty as the anyone for jumping on either of those band-wagons, typically when it's to my benefit. Consequently, I think we lose focus.

[mitchntx]

Mitch-I understand your last post but humor me. Since there are some drivers that you aren't comfortable running side by side with. Is it safe to assume that you may let certain drivers by as you are afraid they may hit you? If so I think that driver has a definite unfair advantage?? This is somewhat along the lines of what Al stated. I am curious if the person who makes a low percentage move on someone who doesn't want contact really is the subject of IRB's. Or do they slide by because someone doesn't want to risk being hit or that if contact does occur it is chalked up to a racing incident and par for the course? I had never thought of this until some of these posts and remembering that I did a point by at TWS as I wasn't sure about the person behind me.

Bryan

Bingo!

It might be because of experience, being zealous, previous encounters or something as simple as closing speed.

I find myself in a "non-comfort zone" when the AI cars catch me.

Typically, they are in heated battles and I don't want to screw up their race, if it doesn't screw up mine.

I hope that I've had enough on-track time with them that I have become predictable and they know that I know they are there. I admit, I get surprised sometimes and have been lucky so far.

Now, being predictable has it's down side, too. Ask SchuVarner about NPR ... :x 8) I learned a valuable lesson that day.

Bryan, in the deleted post, I said ALL contact is avoidable. I believe that and I won't be swayed from it.

I also believe that in a racing environment, both drivers involved in a contact incident have culpability. While the CCR may point blame, all drivers involved have a responsibility to those around them.

Remember, we aren't driving to sunday school.

And by "involved" I mean ...

Car A and Car B are nose to tail with car B trailing car A. Car C has a nose just inside the rear bumper of Car B.

Car A brakes hard at a point car B is not expecting and swerves into car C.

A initiated the event, but had no contact
B cut C off and knocked C off track
C didn't have position And therefore had no right to a piece of the track

Technically, A is free and clear as no contact was made. But wouldn't car A have some responsibility in the incident, regardless?

And during the IRB, A's on track behavior was factored in, it would probably be deemed a "racing incident" and no blame assigned. Does that make B and C feel better?

That's why I said a driver's actions cause reactions to occur to those behind him and it's important for a driver to factor those reactions in as he is deciding what he/she is gonna do.

[AI#97]

Guys, seat time, on track, with this group is going to be the only thing that is going to fix your fears about racing. Take if from someone who was in your position saying the same things just 3 years ago when I started racing with this group. Give it time, relax and get to know your fellow drivers on and off the track. Don't listen to anyone else or let them put pre-determined negativity into your heads. This is your investment in effort and time and trust me, you ARE going to have fun with this group...especially once you get up to speed and start racing as close as the rest of us. You will start seeing the reward is MUCH more than "$.50" medals. Getting out of the car after a race completely jacked up because you just spent 20 minutes 4" from another car, high fivin' in the pits is what this is all about.

Over time, you are going to get more comfortable behind the wheel doing the things we do. It's a HUGE difference from HPDE because you are closer, passing in corners and looking for an opening to make a pass. You will only get comfortable with that over time just the same way you did going from the street to HPDE's...

Be patient, prep your cars, prep the driver, drive smart and trust your fellow competitors in this group and we are going to have one hell of a good time! 8)

[jeffburch]

Matt, you're awesome dude.
Your second calling is motivational speaker.
Were you a cheerleader at TAMU?
Please use "in a van down by the river" in your next post :)

jb

[AI#97]

Matt, you're awesome dude.
Your second calling is motivational speaker.
Were you a cheerleader at TAMU?
Please use "in a van down by the river" in your next post :)

jb

It's Yell Leader...and no. :D

With all the shit I have been through over the last two years having nearly been left "living in a VA-AN, DOWN by the river...or Cerca De el Rio!", I have matured and come to the realization to not sweat the small stuff...and that everything is small stuff. I see these guys having the same frustrations I did and don't want them to make the same mistakes I ALMOST made and leave the group or alienate yourself to the "outside".

All this is worth it guys, trust us, or we wouldn't still be doing it!!!!

[mitchntx]

OK ... who has hacked Matt's account. Covini? That you?

:P

[michaelmosty]

...

[michaelmosty]

Matt, you're awesome dude.
Were you a cheerleader at TAMU?

http://amberandjustin.tripod.com/images/Aggies/Yell%20Leaders.jpg
Welcome to Baskin Robbins, our ice cream scooping experts are here to help you!! Would you like a single or double scoop? :lol:

[BryanL]

Mitch-Great explanation about being aware of your actions causing different reactions. Those are the kinds of things that I am glad I am attempting to learn now rather than after an on track incident.

Matt-I appreciate the pep talk but I am not thinking of leaving the group. I am simply trying to learn and understand things that aren't in the CCR and you don't learn in an HPDE session. It just happens that this lesson in understanding concerns contact. Like Jerry said there is no right or wrong answer concerning contact, but simply having the understanding of what to expect and what is expected in "club" racing. I certainly don't want contact but now have a better understanding of how commonplace and somewhat acceptable it is.

I have tried to absorb as much information as possible while at the track, on the computer at home or anytime I am around or on the phone with someone in the group. I have even been reading a book on racing and I could probably count on my left hand the amount of books I have read since college.

[ShadowBolt]

Matt, you make some good points but you are wrong about Bryan and I. We are not about to quit racing. We also think this is the best group of guys anywhere. We just want clarification about how contact is viewed by our fellow competitors. We are not looking for a certain answer we just want to know if contact is no big deal to most and doing bodywork is normal if you run in this class or if it is to be avoided at all cost? There was nothing more or less to our postings.

So Matt is an Aggie.....this explains everything!

Mitch,

You were spot on with your post except the part about me not being competitive. Jay and I are the most competitive people in the world. Too competitive. We just suck at driving! My wife is scared to death that we will get another car and tear both of them up trying to outrun each other. We get pissed when we lose at a board game.


Jeff's video was great but I wonder how many here with a national title on the line would not have tried a move on Jeff even with the possibility of a crash. I can't tell you in good conscience that I would have done what the second place guy did but I would like to think we all would.


JJ

[mitchntx]

Jay and I are the most competitive people in the world. Too competitive.


Information logged and filed. :wink:

My attitude just pisses Glenn off sometimes because I'm not. I used to be, but just not a high priority at this level.

I'm better because even these "club racers" realized that and knew I would bail out if even a half-hearted attempt to pass was made.

I've adjusted my attitude somewhat ...

[Al Fernandez]

It does seem that everyone has accepted that contact is going to happen to them and contact will happen in every race and is just something everyone has to deal with in their own terms.

You mean contact to someone will happen every race, not you, right? I do agree that if you are going to race wheel to wheel you have to come to terms with the fact that your car will get damaged, but I absolutely disagree that you need to accept that contact is going to happen to you every race.


we just want to know if contact is no big deal to most and doing bodywork is normal

Contact absolutely is a big deal, and the posts here support that thought. Accepting that something will eventually happen in no way indicates that you dont care. It is not ignored in any way, and it brings consequences which I believe are serious. The least anyone in an AI/CMC group I've been in has gotten for at fault contact with damage or loss of position is last place. The most has been losing their license for 1yr. Typical is a DQ, which effectively means your championship is over: lost. By the way, it is also typical to hand the "other" driver a probation for reasons that have already been explained well.

1) In the long term, you will get more damage due to single car incidents than two car incidents. Last weekend was particularly bad re single car offs, but in general the big offs tend to be much worse due to the delta in speed between you and fixed objects than between you and the guy you're passing.

2) You can and should expect to go a long time without doing anything more than polishing your car. Not everyone has the same luck (ask Kimi Raikonnen) so YMMV, but take me as an example. In the last six years of w2w racing I've had four on track contact incidents, two of which resulted in donuts and two resulted in a wrinkled fender. I've also had one off track contact (wall) which resulted in me having to saw the car in half and glue on a new car from the driver seat back. So my numbers are one case of contact every 1.5 yrs that require polish/buff/wax. One case of contact every 3yrs that requires me to repair and paint a body panel. One major incident that requires a new tub every 6 yrs.

3) The raw number of cases of contact per session for a group is irrelevant. You have to take into account number of cars. A group with six cars will have fewer cases of contact than a group of 24. That doesnt mean they have fewer cases per car though, does it? Our group is fielding some decently large numbers, so I expect the number of incidents per race to be more than if we had only a handful of drivers. Given the talent in our field I expect and will act accordingly if the number of cases per driver in our group is not leading the pack for Texas and NASA overall and serving as the example of how to do it right.

[AllZWay]

Matt, you're awesome dude.
Your second calling is motivational speaker.
Were you a cheerleader at TAMU?

jb

You mean those cheerleaders in the janitor uniforms. :D

[Al Fernandez]

I am curious if the person who makes a low percentage move on someone who doesn't want contact really is the subject of IRB's. Or do they slide by because someone doesn't want to risk being hit or that if contact does occur it is chalked up to a racing incident and par for the course?

As long as the incident is reported to a director, it gets discussed and reviewed, contact/damage/loss of positon or not. You dont need to have had contact to walk up to a driver and tell them you feel the only reason you didnt hit is because you bailed out! If they dont listen or you arent comfortable, that is what your directors are here for, tell us!

It doesnt take long for both of the following to happen: 1) the overly aggressive driver is identified and put on probation and they either chill or the whole thing escalates and 2) they come accross someone who doesnt just eject, contact with damage/loss of position happens and the penalty is really harsh, so they either chill or eventually get run out of town.

I do want to give a disclaimer that I do not think anyone currently running in our group is what I would consider to be a chronic low percentage driver. Everyone is guilty of sticking their nose where it didnt belong once in a while, and there have been a couple of official/driver discussions concerning a given specific move, but that is not the same thing.

[Rsmith350]

So Matt is an Aggie.....this explains everything!



You mean those cheerleaders in the janitor uniforms.

Careful.....I see the formation of team TAMU in the future. What do you think Matt?

WHOOOOOPPP!!!!!

[Rob Liebbe]

I'll put my two cents in....

I try my very best to go as fast as possible without damaging mine or anybody else's car. I also hope and will do everything in my power to prevent injury to myself or anyone else. Safety is priority #1.

That being said, I have learned some of the tricks and/or driving habits of my competitiors and am on the lookout when those drivers are in a position to pull one of those tricks or habits. When that happens I am very careful and alert to their presence and actions and am prepared to take evasive actions if needed to prevent contact, damage, or injury.

I have a LOT of seat time in test vehicles of all types and open track events, and now a fair amount of time in wheel to wheel racing. I was told that WTW would be a lot different than open track, but did not fully appreciate the difference until I started racing. It has taken me three seasons to get to the comfort level in traffic that I have now. I am just now able to balance my concentration between the multiple areas requiring a driver's attention during a race. For those who are new, be patient and the comfort level will come to you. For those who have been around awhile, take the time to learn the new guys' habits before getting too close.

I don't like body contact. Period. Even the slightest contact at an inopportune time can ruin a race, cause serious damage, and even cause serious bodily injury. We have had some close calls and have been VERY lucky to date.

If you look at another series whose initials are Spec Miata, you will see a lot of contact and a lot of beat up or destoyed cars. You will not see a close-knit group of friends who truly enjoy the enitre weekend experience. You will see a group with a reputation for contact and even hear nick-names like "Spec - Pinata". WE DO NOT WANT TO DESERVE THAT SAME REPUTATION. It is within our power as a group to prevent it. You don't have to be wimpy, just cautious and respectful of others around you.

And remember, there are no F1 scouts, huge trophys, large cash prizes, or even trophy girls. This is a hobby level sport where most, if not all, of us are participating for fun.

See you at the track.

[dirwin]

At MSR-C Chris L and I went side by side through Rattle Snake, Wagon Wheel, Horseshoe, Boot Hill and Tombstone, not once, but for 3 straight laps and we changed positions several times. Neither of us consider body contact as "acceptable" and during those 3 laps being side by side through the tightest sections of that track, neither of us put so much as a half a tread on the dirt or rode the curbing. One more thing, neither of us gave an inch. Now, the directors in the tower may have been losing their minds watching the whole thing, but if we did it again today for 15 straight laps I would bet you my car that we wouldn't have contact. The big difference, I have been side by side with him before and I trust Chris as a driver/competitor and I know he is aggressive and while he will not give you an inch or concede the position, he will give you racing room.

Nobody that I know of in our group takes the "rubbin' is racing" approach and every driver I know does everything they can to avoid contact. I haven't ever seen anything close to an old fashion dirt track punt.

Racing is about adrenaline, and what it does to different people is different. Matt is spot on with his point, knowing how it affects different drivers is only learned through the experience of being on the track with them and watching. Some you will drive one way when you are with them, some you will drive another way, just part of the fun of racing.

Avoiding contact is all about being aware. I ran a Spec Miata in SCCA for a while, ran a Factory Five Cobra in SCCA and NASA a lot, have run my 05 in AI since 05, ran it in Nationals in 06 and have had contact 1 time and it was minor. Just imagine, 20+ races in SM and NO contact, it CAN be done. I have had this car in the front, middle and back of the pack, have been side by side with Matt and Chris M, in the rain no less, have been brake bombed by David D more times than I can count and hell, I have even earned the "mantes" once, thanks JB. Trust me, nobody in this group doesn't do everything they can to AVOID contact.

BTW, my being in the back of the pack lately is because I sat out last year (got to pay for this fun somehow) and the damn front of the pack moved.

[BryanL]

Al-I may not have worded that right. I don't think I will have contact every race and wouldn't accept that. I have seen that contact does happen during every race. Now that I have been in 3 race weekends I better understand what happens and that contact is normal.
3) Does anyone keep track of the number of incidents per race? Is there a percentage (based on the size of the field) that is generally acceptable or unacceptable?
Of course I will still have to learn where the line is that is considered aggressive driving.

Rob-I agree that safety should be #1. I have very little seat time (7 events) and certainly understand being patient with my comfort level for not only myself but others. Sure it would be nice if you didn't have to worry about the other person hitting you but like you say you are on the lookout for certain tricks/habits. I also got into this group becuase of the group and the more time I spend at the track the better it gets.

Ross-are you painting your car maroon and getting a matching golf cart? I suggest you nickname your car the "wrecking crew" since the aggies certainly aren't' holding up that nickname.

[marshall_mosty]

[...it is also typical to hand the "other" driver a probation...

Been there, done that, bought the shot glass. 8)

[ShadowBolt]

It has taken me three seasons to get to the comfort level in traffic that I have now. I am just now able to balance my concentration between the multiple areas requiring a driver's attention during a race.


Great post Rob!
I need a lot of seat time. It is hard to know where to look when there are cars all around you. I just have not had a chance to run side by side for more than a few turns before you all run and hide on me. I really like what I'm hearing about contact!


JJ