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Todd Covini
05-31-2008, 08:41 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw3Fj9pyzq4

Cool video and nice driving.

BryanL
05-31-2008, 07:09 PM
Todd-are you sure that isn't a CMC race with the big production style wings?

Neat camera angle.

Todd Covini
06-02-2008, 09:14 PM
Looks like the next GRM will feature the series on the cover...

http://www.mustangchallenge.com/newsDisplay.php?news_id=62

donovan
06-03-2008, 09:19 AM
JG Pasterjak who drove in the race is also the Production/Art Director at GRM. I think he finished in the top 10...

DD

michaelmosty
06-03-2008, 12:59 PM
Todd-are you sure that isn't a CMC race with the big production style wings?

Neat camera angle.
Bryan, you better watch out, this is what I have planned for the 2009 season.
http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/1280/10324/240927.jpg

BryanL
06-03-2008, 01:14 PM
Michael that brings a big smile to my face. Thanks for the laugh.

And I'm not worried about you until you step up to CMC2 :D

Todd Covini
06-03-2008, 01:30 PM
....or CMC2 is combined with CMC again. :wink:

jeffburch
06-03-2008, 05:07 PM
....or CMC2 is combined with CMC again. :wink:

I'm doubtful this will ever happen.

jb

Adam Ginsberg
06-03-2008, 05:24 PM
....or CMC2 is combined with CMC again. :wink:

I'm doubtful this will ever happen.

jb

It should never happen, period.

GlennCMC70
06-03-2008, 05:29 PM
i'm pretty sure CMC-2 was created to give the newer versions of the CMC cars a place to race while its determined what its gonna take to slow them down to current CMC speeds. at some point it will be best for everyone to all be one class.

Rsmith350
06-03-2008, 05:36 PM
at some point it will be best for everyone to all be one class.

let 3rd gen's run 350's and we'll talk :twisted:

I've got 5 LT1's laying around the shop, and I'm spending all this money finding stock LB9 stuff :shock: oh well.....rules are rules. :roll:

michaelmosty
06-03-2008, 07:32 PM
at some point it will be best for everyone to all be one class.
With that change we could have 20+ car CMC fields. :D

michaelmosty
06-03-2008, 07:34 PM
Michael that brings a big smile to my face. Thanks for the laugh.

And I'm not worried about you until you step up to CMC2 :D
I gotz to look good with my bling wing!!

http://www.fishbot.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/nohands/no_hands_bling_bling.jpg

jeffburch
06-03-2008, 07:38 PM
I've did the homework.
Gen I L98 TPI won't do it.

LT1 and a suitable tranny is a hellava idear tho.
Save me one Ross, we'll talk. TG is looking for forward thinking on this issue.

Now, any idears on what the 5 liter Fords can do to step up?
Might wanna start a new thread over on the national site.


jb

Adam Ginsberg
06-03-2008, 07:44 PM
Well, we're getting wayyyy off track here, but....


i'm pretty sure CMC-2 was created to give the newer versions of the CMC cars a place to race

It was. And, it made/makes good sense - find a way to allow the new(er) cars into the series without putting the hinkie on the existing folks.


while its determined what its gonna take to slow them down to current CMC speeds. at some point it will be best for everyone to all be one class.

And there's the rub - how do you make a 30 year old platform "equal" to a brand new platform?

IMO, CMC2 should stay right where it is - LS1's, S197's, 4cam and late 4.6 motored Mustangs.

CMC should, likewise, stay where it is. 5.0 3rd gens, 5.0 Fox3's, 5.0 SN95's. The only cars that could be considered "fence sitters" are the LT1's, and early 4.6 motored Ford's.

Getting 17x9.5" rims and 275 R888 tires under a Fox3 car, without fender mods, is impossible. Fender flares and other similar mods are for AI/AIX, not CMC.

GlennCMC70
06-03-2008, 09:53 PM
a stronger spec cam and possible head upgrade will help the Ford and 3rd gen guys. the 3rd gen who run the 5.7ltr will get a weaker spec cam.
17x9.5 wheels are the major rub. i've already talked w/ Al on this and the answer is spec'ing a max track width for the Fox cars if they use the 17" set-up and allow a sinple cheap add-on fender flair for the FOX only. the 16" set-up can still be used and could allow for a weight break if you stay w/ 16's.
power is the other issue. the LS1 is the one we all worry about. Al thinks (or did at one time) its impossible to get it below 270 HP. i think we can get it to 250 no problem. if we can get it to 250, we can easily get everyone else up to 250 w/ little fuss.

the other issue is brakes. i think its a non-issue as it seems we have more brake now than we really need. adding a 17" wheel 275 tire combo may affect this somewhat, but Wilwood makes a pretty cheap 4 pot caliper. so an upgrade can be done, but i dont think it will be the difference between a top car or mid-pack car.

we should start a new thread.

michaelmosty
06-03-2008, 09:57 PM
Now, any idears on what the 5 liter Fords can do to step up?
Might wanna start a new thread over on the national site.


jb
Marshall's first motor (4 yrs. ago) was virtually my motor with headers and a cam. He made 259 hp.
If 260 HP is the magic # they go with this should do it.

As far as clearance for the 17X9.5's w/ 275's Marshall's car would be a good example as well. The stock rear quarters have had the lip pulled out and the stock front fenders have been cut and modified a little. Even with those changes it still looks very stock.

jeffburch
06-03-2008, 09:58 PM
Not on a TPI car without some tweaking (of the memcal).
One can of worms leads to many more.
Easiest is to let the old schoolers stay and fade away.
Build 2 out to 300bhp like it should be.

jb

Adam Ginsberg
06-03-2008, 10:11 PM
a stronger spec cam and possible head upgrade will help the Ford and 3rd gen guys. the 3rd gen who run the 5.7ltr will get a weaker spec cam.

"Hello, American Sedan?!?!"


17x9.5 wheels are the major rub. i've already talked w/ Al on this and the answer is spec'ing a max track width for the Fox cars if they use the 17" set-up and allow a sinple cheap add-on fender flair for the FOX only. the 16" set-up can still be used and could allow for a weight break if you stay w/ 16's.

This is CMC, not AI/AIX. Flares and such don't belong in our class.


the other issue is brakes. i think its a non-issue as it seems we have more brake now than we really need. adding a 17" wheel 275 tire combo may affect this somewhat, but Wilwood makes a pretty cheap 4 pot caliper. so an upgrade can be done, but i dont think it will be the difference between a top car or mid-pack car.

"Hello, American Sedan?!?!"


we should start a new thread.

Agreed, provided we can have a meaningful discussion, and not have it turn into a cluster.


Marshall's first motor (4 yrs. ago) was virtually my motor with headers and a cam. He made 259 hp.
If 260 HP is the magic # they go with this should do it.

"Hello, American Sedan?!?!" Headers? Cam? 2 of the big items shot down every single year they've been brought up. 230hp/300tq, stock parts, stock headers.


Not on a TPI car without some tweaking (of the memcal).
One can of worms leads to many more.
Easiest is to let the old schoolers stay and fade away.
Build 2 out to 300bhp like it should be.

JB for prez.

Let's break it down.....what is the downside in keeping two CMC classes? There really isn't one. CMC and CMC2. Similar in concept to AI and AIX. Only have the budget to run an early chassis.....stay CMC. Got a larger budget, but don't want to run AI.....build for CMC2.

What's the downside trying to merge the two? Many - increased costs for existing competitors (more motor stuff, more brake parts, new rims and tires, etc), increased costs for any new competitor building an early gen car ("Hello, American Sedan?!?!"), and a constant battle to try and "level the playing field".

A fairly wise man explained to me many years ago....."Always think of the new guy coming into the series."

donovan
06-03-2008, 10:25 PM
Just move everyone up to AI so we can have a huge field...

DD 8)

GlennCMC70
06-03-2008, 10:47 PM
Adam - spec cams are already allowed. whats the big deal w/ just changing the spec size?

A sedan didnt have HP TQ limits. CMC does. thats the big difference between them and us. thats what will keep things the same as it is now. a CMC spec cam cost no more or less than a 600HP cam. its all just a spec cahange. so you have to spend $150 on a cam, no big deal.

as for the flares, well if your faced w/ not being able to run the 275's or bolting on a set of cheap plastic flares in order to do so, my bet is you will do it. thats a better solution than basically making the fox uncompetitive as the class evolves. the 3rd gen is not a problem. allow an LT1 in it w/ the T-56 or larger spec cams in the 350.

i'm way against the 300hp idea. more power breaks more parts.

Adam Ginsberg
06-04-2008, 01:50 AM
Adam - spec cams are already allowed. whats the big deal w/ just changing the spec size?

Excellent question - when that was asked sometime back, prior to allowing the Cobra parts, no one could/would answer it. Spending upwards of $2000 to bring the 5.0L Fords up in power didn't make sense when a simple cam change ($300-$350, total, in parts, gaskets, fluids, and a re-dyno) would produce the desired result.

No one would allow it to bring the 5.0L cars up to the 230/300 numbers, but now, 2 years later, it's being talked about to bring the number closer to 250-260. That's not stock power levels for the original CMC cars.


A sedan didnt have HP TQ limits. CMC does. thats the big difference between them and us. thats what will keep things the same as it is now. a CMC spec cam cost no more or less than a 600HP cam. its all just a spec cahange. so you have to spend $150 on a cam, no big deal.

Yes, you're correct - A/S has no HP/TQ limits. But, wow.....the more we begin to allow various parts, the more we look just like them.


as for the flares, well if your faced w/ not being able to run the 275's or bolting on a set of cheap plastic flares in order to do so, my bet is you will do it. thats a better solution than basically making the fox uncompetitive as the class evolves.

What you're advocating is dropping more $$$ for things that have a much simpler solution - don't merge the 2 classes.

As I mentioned before - trying to make a 30 year old platform "equal" a brand new platform is a bad idea. There's enough chatter about platform parity now.....

And.....I'm still asking the same question....what's the REAL downside to keeping them separated? How does ANYONE lose?? Keep it simple, keep it stock, keep it (relatively) inexpensive. Merging the 2 classes increases costs, significantly, when it doesn't need to.

A direct quote from the 2008 CMC rules:

"Modifications will be limited to those necessary to provide for safety, close competition, limited expenses, and positive exposure."


i'm way against the 300hp idea. more power breaks more parts.

No argument whatsoever, Glenn.

mitchntx
06-04-2008, 07:24 AM
This is CMC, not AI/AIX. Flares and such don't belong in our class.


But ice cream scoop spoilers, whale tails and Cessna wings do?

AllZWay
06-04-2008, 07:52 AM
This is CMC, not AI/AIX. Flares and such don't belong in our class.


But ice cream scoop spoilers, whale tails and Cessna wings do?

Mitch beat me to it... but I was going to say the same thing. I have never seen a Stock car with these wings that are allowed ( and I'll include my own)... so why would fender flares be any different. :?:

BryanL
06-04-2008, 08:05 AM
This is CMC, not AI/AIX. Flares and such don't belong in our class.


But ice cream scoop spoilers, whale tails and Cessna wings do?

Dangit Mitch you beat me to it.

I do like JB's idea of the 300 hp cars but parts breakage does worry me. Glad I don't have a T5 if the hp comes up.
Getting an LS1 below 270 is no problem. I think I was under that when I put the 50 mm restrictor and the stock airbox. I was also very close to that number when I was running without a restrictor and my knock sensors unplugged which gave me under 10 degrees timing.

I don't see how the platform issue really matters as the fox already runs against the 4th gen. Not really any difference in an LS1 and LT1 4th gen.

I don't know anything about the later model Mustangs but based on the wing rule I think you should look at how those cars fit in the mix and that will be how the rules end up.
There was a thread like this awhile back on the national website but with more CMC2 cars showing up it maybe time to start a new one. I believe some of the thoughts were to see where the participants end up migrating. If car counts begin to dwindle in CMC and get bigger in CMC2 then there would be more rules changes for CMC2 to make that the main class and have a CMC Vintage for the older CMC cars that don't want to change.
Bryan

mitchntx
06-04-2008, 08:09 AM
Wait a minute ... what am I thinking?

I like ice cream scoop spoilers, whale tails and BIG wings on the back of competitor's cars.

:wink:

Seriously, flares are the next step on the black diamond slope ...

GlennCMC70
06-04-2008, 08:33 AM
Adam - the down side to 2 classes is "class dilution". the more eligible platforms you have the more likely that you will have large fields. the larger a field is the bigger draw it is to potential racers. how many of you a thinking Spec RX-7 is gonna take off at any moment? not me. the car count is almost non existent.

look at how boring the ALMS GT1 class is. they had like 3 cars last race.


disclaimer - none of this is official CMC plans. these are my own thoughts about where the CMC/CMC-2 class's are headed. right now, the only thing i know about from being a CMC official is the investigations around how low the LS1 4th gen can be restricted to.

marshall_mosty
06-04-2008, 08:34 AM
Just move everyone up to AI so we can have a huge field...

DD 8)

We don't have these issues... do we David???

...sitting back with my margarita watching the carnage ensue... 8)

michaelmosty
06-04-2008, 08:35 AM
This is CMC, not AI/AIX. Flares and such don't belong in our class.


But ice cream scoop spoilers, whale tails and Cessna wings do?

Dangit Mitch you beat me to it.


Dang Mitch, Proctor, and Bryan, you beat me to it. :lol:

marshall_mosty
06-04-2008, 08:42 AM
...and I digress.


I think good neon underlighting would go miles for the intent of the series... much more so than Cessna wings...


http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/1280/3889/241035.jpg

or LED valve stems. It's cRaZy yO!!!

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/1280/3889/241036.jpg

Adam Ginsberg
06-04-2008, 09:38 AM
But ice cream scoop spoilers, whale tails and Cessna wings do?

Mitch - I'm with you on this one.

FWIW, I've never liked the wing rule, as it doesn't make the cars "stock appearing".....we look more like AI in allowing them. Toss in fender flares, and the problem (of looking like AI) gets worse. Just because we allow wings doesn't mean we should slide further down the slope.

Yank the wing rule, and I'll pull my ice cream scooper in a heartbeat. No problem at all.


I don't see how the platform issue really matters as the fox already runs against the 4th gen. Not really any difference in an LS1 and LT1 4th gen.

The platform issue is critical when we discuss how to get certain chassis' to the possible CMC2 configuration.


Adam - the down side to 2 classes is "class dilution". the more eligible platforms you have the more likely that you will have large fields. the larger a field is the bigger draw it is to potential racers.

Even if that is one of the downsides of not merging (and I don't agree that it is), it pales in comparison to the alternative.

Realistically, there is no "class dilution", as it's still CMC. The more allowances for a larger "parts list", the further we get away from "stock based racing".


disclaimer - none of this is official CMC plans. these are my own thoughts about where the CMC/CMC-2 class's are headed. right now, the only thing i know about from being a CMC official is the investigations around how low the LS1 4th gen can be restricted to.

Understood. I'm just putting my thoughts out there to get a good understanding of the ramifications of merging the 2 classes.

mitchntx
06-04-2008, 12:27 PM
But ice cream scoop spoilers, whale tails and Cessna wings do?

Mitch - I'm with you on this one.



If so, why do you have one?

I was this || close to ordering an Alan Blaine rear spoiler and decided against it based upon exactly what you describe. It was a moral decision ...

So take a stand, brother ... become scoop-less!!!!
8)

AI#97
06-04-2008, 12:42 PM
I am with Donovan, you ALL need to move up to AI...even glenn!

what I am going to be interested to see is that with CMC2 going to the 275/40/17 R888's, how are the usual shortages of tires in AI going to be with 20+ more cars using the same tires... Best order all your tires early in the season!!!!

Waco Racer
06-04-2008, 01:17 PM
I think that CMC2 should stay separated and include the GTO, CTS-V, and the new Challenger. I know that these cars are legal in AI but the level of prep is the key. Also, I would like to see more HP/TQ in CMC 2.

Waco Racer
06-04-2008, 01:18 PM
Bryan, you better watch out, this is what I have planned for the 2009 season.
http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/1280/10324/240927.jpg

Well, damn. MM beat me to it. On to plan B.

Rsmith350
06-04-2008, 01:25 PM
I think that CMC2 should stay separated and include the GTO, CTS-V, and the new Challenger. I know that these cars are legal in AI but the level of prep is the key.

The GCCCMC2 class. can we fit that on a t-shirt :lol:

Waco Racer
06-04-2008, 01:25 PM
a CMC spec cam cost no more or less than a 600HP cam. its all just a spec cahange. so you have to spend $150 on a cam, no big deal.

Sure, the cam costs the same, but, what about the rest of the valve train? Do you need to upgrade that as well? Most likely.

Waco Racer
06-04-2008, 01:28 PM
The F'nGCCCMC2 class. can we fit that on a t-shirt :lol:

There, I fixed it, you forgot the Firebirds. :lol:

Rsmith350
06-04-2008, 01:30 PM
The F'nGCCCMC2 class. can we fit that on a t-shirt :lol:

There, I fixed it, you forgot the Firebirds. :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

mitchntx
06-04-2008, 01:32 PM
Hey ... :(

AI#97
06-04-2008, 01:49 PM
I think that CMC2 should stay separated and include the GTO, CTS-V, and the new Challenger. I know that these cars are legal in AI but the level of prep is the key. Also, I would like to see more HP/TQ in CMC 2.

There is only one GTO that is known of that might run AI, but the CTS-V and Challenger cost so much to buy and then even more to prepare, the only people with that kind of money are going to run Vettes and P-cars in GTC....they are known as cake eaters and don't drive "muscle cars", they drive sports cars... building a rules set to allow cars that will realistically NEVER make it into the series is stupid. Hence the current state of AI... :roll:

Waco Racer
06-04-2008, 03:56 PM
There are 2 racing and at least 1 more GTO on the way. I am really targeting to the drivers of the T2 cars that want to get away from the "car of the year" that goes on with the SCCA.

David Love AI27
06-04-2008, 08:45 PM
a CMC spec cam cost no more or less than a 600HP cam. its all just a spec cahange. so you have to spend $150 on a cam, no big deal.

Sure, the cam costs the same, but, what about the rest of the valve train? Do you need to upgrade that as well? Most likely.

Yep... I tried "big cam" with stock valve train... didn't work too well... need to upgrade springs at the very least...

donovan
06-04-2008, 09:08 PM
Glad I don't have a T5 if the hp comes up.

You can make a T5 work... I have 330HP/350TQ with one, and its just fine!

You have to make a couple mods, but it works.

DD

Todd Covini
06-05-2008, 11:54 AM
Anyone else following the Miller Mustang Challenge? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Adam Ginsberg
06-05-2008, 12:02 PM
If so, why do you have one?

Simple - it was/is allowed, and it was free (Chad made it for me, and installed it on the car).

No different than you switching to 17" rims and tires - it's allowed, even though I think it's a step in the wrong direction.

donovan
06-05-2008, 12:08 PM
Anyone else following the Miller Mustang Challenge? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Miller what???

mitchntx
06-05-2008, 01:25 PM
If so, why do you have one?

Simple - it was/is allowed, and it was free (Chad made it for me, and installed it on the car).

No different than you switching to 17" rims and tires - it's allowed, even though I think it's a step in the wrong direction.

And you claim I "don't get it" ... :roll:

Alien
06-05-2008, 04:42 PM
JB for Prez! Worry about class dilution when there are a only a few cars left. Keep them separate at least until then, maybe forever. By the time everyone steps up too-too (I'm going on a limb here and guessing at LEAST another 6-8 years), the current CMC cars really will be old relics, and a car that is raced for that many years prolly needs to be retired.

As far as parts being hard to come by? WHA?!?! That can be an argument for every car out there. I found X for my old car but it's gonna cost me $$$ cause the good stuff is getting rare. I found X my newer car, but it's gonna cost me $$$ cause it's newer.

If I were to start to build a car now, I'm unsure if I'ld pick up a CMC or CMC2 car due to initial investment, not because I foresee running by myself in a couple of years. For me, and I think others too, I won't spend money on my CMC car just to make the jump into the duece. The only way that will happen is if I total it and have to build another car from the ground up, that's when I'ld join -2. (then again I do have a spare shell I picked up for $150. :)) Yes it's more investment to build again, but I'ld rather start fresh than swap in a 350 or cam or heads and trans or whatever the rules will allow to run CMC2. Buy CMC2 car mostly stock, safety gear it, go race.

Whats gonna happen when CMC3 gets formed? :twisted: Still in CMC with only one other car? Sell and build a new one or be content racing wik the other guy. Life ain't fair. Deal wik it.

*edit* Just thought of a random comparison for the way things can be run. I like #2

I played soccer for many years. There are basically 3 types of leagues.

1. The just for fun, everyone plays, even the one legged kid, league.
Fun factor ok for some, unless you have a competitive mindset, or are somewhat good, and have to 'dumb down' to play well wik others.

2. The sign up and we'll put you wik similar experience league.
Fun factor good. Competition is good, but it is only a game and you won't get kicked off the team (or shot) for an own goal. If you lost, you have a beer wik the team who just beat you.

3. The club league. Try out for the team, keep the best, you gotta be good to play. Fun factor... not so much, it was too serious for me for something that is just a sport and hobby. You lose, you run laps.

add... 4. Pros... um.. yeah.. I *WISH* I got paid to do something I really enjoyed.

Waco Racer
06-05-2008, 08:02 PM
Anyone else following the Miller Mustang Challenge? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Miller what???

I think Todd said something about buying everyone Millers at the next race. Personally, I like Genuine Draft!

AI#97
06-12-2008, 12:04 PM
Got bored and re-read the snipit in GRM about the MMC cars at their first event in the SE region. They noted that the MMC cars were about 2 seconds faster than the AI record at that track....wonder if they took into account that region's AI cars are slower than snails on dry ice?!