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Rsmith350
06-04-2008, 06:52 AM
Keep it simple, keep it stock, keep it (relatively) inexpensive. Merging the 2 classes increases costs, significantly, when it doesn't need to.

This is the spirit of the class in it's simplest terms....I think.

My problem as a person in the middle of building a CMC car is that parts are getting hard to find and expensive. (for third gen, no one wants to keep a 305!!!)

What i would like to get out of this conversation is some intelligent and well thought out plans on the future of this series and how we are going to handle things as the new generations come out (5th gen coming soon :D ) Eventually no one will want to run a third gen for the same reasons that no one runs a 2nd gen. Parts are hard to find and alot more expensive to make it competitive with the higher generation cars (who have more horsepower, better suspension, better brakes, lighter weight)

I know someone will bring up the spec engine but seriously ya'll even with a spec engine......all Glenn, Al, mitch,morgan, etc. has to do is remove a restrictor and walk all over you (on the straights for sure). I chose to run a third gen because coming into this because i thought it would be more cost effective. Bull$h** As this whole thing progesses I realize i could have picked up a 4th gen really cheap and had alot more flexibility as far as class progression.

I hope this thread becomes a constructive and pertinent discussion.

mitchntx
06-04-2008, 07:57 AM
My problem as a person in the middle of building a CMC car is that parts are getting hard to find and expensive. (for third gen, no one wants to keep a 305!!!)



Not unlike an LT1 ... while just an SBC, it's reverse flow cooling makes it a limited production design, made for 4 years ...

Unported heads, unwarped (enough to maintain compression ratio) are getting damned hard to find. I went through 3 sets before I found a set that would work with the thickest head gasket available.

I've discussed with the powers in charge identifying a "spec" head that would yield similar power curves as a stock head.

A class built around the term "inexpensive" is getting kind of pricey in select arenas.

AllZWay
06-04-2008, 08:19 AM
My problem as a person in the middle of building a CMC car is that parts are getting hard to find and expensive. (for third gen, no one wants to keep a 305!!!)



Not unlike an LT1 ... while just an SBC, it's reverse flow cooling makes it a limited production design, made for 4 years ...

Unported heads, unwarped (enough to maintain compression ratio) are getting damned hard to find. I went through 3 sets before I found a set that would work with the thickest head gasket available.

I've discussed with the powers in charge identifying a "spec" head that would yield similar power curves as a stock head.

A class built around the term "inexpensive" is getting kind of pricey in select arenas.

Not to mention that a good T56 and it's associated parts are becoming much harder to find and very pricey.

I almost couldn't find a bell housing. Mitch loaned me one...but I finally got lucky and found one at a decent price.

Rsmith350
06-04-2008, 08:40 AM
I figured that might be the case. I am all for keeping CMC as stock as possible but i think the options as far as car setup are in order.

I was thinking about throwing a 350 in the car I have and going to AI after I get my feet wet in CMC.

Can anyone tell me why 3rd Gen's are not allowed in CMC2 :?: :?: :?:

mitchntx
06-04-2008, 08:47 AM
Can anyone tell me why 3rd Gen's are not allowed in CMC2 :?: :?: :?:

Limiting engine modifications to whatever was available from the factory. 305s didn't make the HP. And 350s didn't come with a manual trans.

Rsmith350
06-04-2008, 08:54 AM
So basically I made a poor choice of generation. I am now limited to either being regular CMC or being a AI freak (just kidding) unless I change cars (read...$$$$$$$$$$$$$$)

michaelmosty
06-04-2008, 08:59 AM
What would it take to get a 305 to 250 rwhp? Would that be possible as an alternative to switching to a 350?

GlennCMC70
06-04-2008, 09:00 AM
one thing to realize is its gonna cost X to race.
now, you can start off w/ a very low costing platform like a Fox (these things are a dime a dozen). you eventually will spend X to run up front.
now a 3rd gen is a little closer to X to start w/. but still will require some money to run up front, thus X is the cost it takes.
now a 4th gen pretty much costs X right up front and takes very little added money to get up front.

so from my point of view the addition of CMC-2 just raises X. now those of you w/ Fox and 3rd gen and LT1 4th gen cars likely have already spent X. now the CMC-2 cars will need to spend X plus X2 to run up front.
as the class evolves CMC and CMC-2 will likely end up at the same place.

the point is, some of you here picked the car your in likely due to cost. this is potentially gonna cost you in the long run if CMC ends up in CMC-2.

my advice to you Ross, is dont try and bring a MAX built effort 3rd gen to the track on its first outing. get the car safe, and mechanically sound. upgrade and mod it as time and money allow. the car will be more able than the driver for a few years. the quickest way to get discouraged is to have a class winning car and a mid pack driver. the CMC/CMC-2 deal will take many years to resolve. i'm sure CMC-2 will be getting lots of tweaks well thru 2010. class merging is at least 5 plus years out.

GlennCMC70
06-04-2008, 09:09 AM
Ross - dont panic. you and the other CMC only cars are not going to be left out to dry. there will always be a place for you to race.

CMC-2 was made to allow the non-legal CMC cars a place to race for the time being. this allows the rules makers a place to tweak the rules for those cars till they can be made even w/ CMC. it may require CMC to be tweaked to make that happen. a 350 for the 3rd gen is an option. also allowing the LT1 -T56 is too. a GM crate motor (ZZ4?).
the Fox car is gonna be a little harder to make happen.

also, i've already been told that if you wanna run your CMC legal car in CMC-2, just ask. they will let you do it. just dont bitch about having to stick w/ the 305 for now if you do it. if you want to be a pioneer, get w/ Tony and offer solutions. offer to help find what will work and what will not.

GlennCMC70
06-04-2008, 09:11 AM
Ross - call me if you want. i'm available all day.
214-869-9603

Rsmith350
06-04-2008, 09:16 AM
I'd love to help if I can. I'll call you this afternoon.

jeffburch
06-04-2008, 10:00 AM
Class merging is problematic from both points of view.
Flawed concept from the start.
Trying to get both to somewhere in the middle.
These new guys coming in with modern cars are thinking "what? restrict down to run with these old cluckers?"
The old 5 liter cars are thinking "the best any L98 could do on a good day was 245bhp to the rear wheels in the C4"
Detrimental to both IMO.

Plus, I ain't spending the kind of money needed to class up.
LT1? Not my ideal with the pig rich/cyl. wash problem.
LS1? Not my ideal. Where do I start with that?
Gen I? 350 with some spec cam? I don't want to run a carb, F that. What tranny?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$
jb

Rsmith350
06-04-2008, 10:31 AM
What about running it like this-

CMC- stays like it is (230hp) :wink:

CMC2- Older cars are allowed a few mods with limits, higher generation cars are allowed to run unrestricted, body mods stay like CMC (300hp) :)

AI- stays like it is, cause according to Marshall, they have no problems ("enough to break stuff" hp) :D <----joke

AIX- same :shock:


I know there's a TON more too it than that, but you get the idea. It's a stepped system. Allows people to gradually step up with mods on the cars :?:

I'm with JB on the class merging issue but why not make it easier for a car and driver to progress together through the ranks.


This is just my opinion and I'll probably get blasted with the "you don't know what you're talking about you're not even racing yet" vibe but that's why it's called an opinion.

GlennCMC70
06-04-2008, 10:47 AM
CMC/CMC-2/AI/AIX to me are not what i'de consider steps on a ladder.
i love CMC. AI is OK, but has just gotten too far gone to realisticly consider.
pick a class and go w/ it.
i do however tell folks looking at AI to consider CMC for at least a couple years to hone their skills before spending the big bucks.

BryanL
06-04-2008, 11:05 AM
It may have been a step ladder in the past but now it requires a pretty substantial jump to go from CMC to AI. To some it isn't a big jump but then my brother doesn't think you should ever pop the hood on your car. You could step up in mods over time if you like but to get up front will take a pretty big jump. Ross-I think you are thinking like a street/drag racer wanting to mod everything. Get your car legal and on track and there will be plenty of things to work on over time. I also wouldn't worry too much about your 3rd Gen not having a place to race. I am still the only one that has to run CMC2 in our region. Though I think there are several CMC2 only cars in California.

Rsmith350
06-04-2008, 11:31 AM
You could step up in mods over time if you like but to get up front will take a pretty big jump. Ross-I think you are thinking like a street/drag racer wanting to mod everything. Get your car legal and on track and there will be plenty of things to work on over time.

Not wanting to mod my car.....but I am thinking ahead and I want to be involved with this series for a long time so i want to help anyway i can to improve it/draw more people in.

Ok, so everybody has been telling me just to get my car on track and legal and improve my car from there when i start talking about different classes and rules restrictions. Isn't this the same concept I have been talking about :?:

What happens when i get the car sorted out and pretty much maxed out rules wise :?: if I'm happy racing that.....cool, but when I'm not happy with that and wanna go higher horsepower there's this huge investment jump to AI. Then we wonder why we don't have more people in that class. :? There's no middle ground here......basic (fairly inexpensive)...or balls to the wall (break out your check book) Looking at it from an outsiders point of view it doesn't have that "well i can start simple and work my way up"option.

Granted i am young and have more of the "Fast and the Furious" mentality sometimes but who do we think the next generation of racers are gonna be :?:

I'm probably way over-stepping my bounds here. Sorry guys! no offense meant.

mitchntx
06-04-2008, 12:53 PM
I'm probably way over-stepping my bounds here. Sorry guys! no offense meant.

I appreciate a fresh set of eyes to get CMC old-timers (Adam :P ) out of a rut and mind-set.

There is a whole new generation of racers headed our way. New does not mean stoopid. Fresh ideas, fresh perspectives, fresh points of view are welcome as fas as I'm concerned.

A slippery slope doesn't always face downhill ...

AI#97
06-04-2008, 12:57 PM
Considering there are less than 10 REAL AIX cars in the entire country, AI will be the top rung of the "ladder" before long. Hence why the new 18" tire rule, 2700lb min weight, and composite panels rules were made IMHO.

that leaves CMC2 as the middle of the road solution.

But as an AI racer, I don't really want to see CMC2 cars with 300rwhp. Now you will be able drag or PASS us on the straights given most AI cars are in the 315 range with a crap load of aero drag on the cars. Now our races get hosed even more than they already are with CMC2 starting BEHIND CMC.

Funny thing is that from the stands, most people don't realize there are 4 classes of cars during our races...so why have 4 classes and market the series like AV8SS....? One class, run what you brung and if that ain't enough, bring more!

mitchntx
06-04-2008, 02:40 PM
Why not run with what Adam suggested ... simple!

The series power level is governed by the dyno sheet, period. However you want to get to the "number" ... fine.

Now, how can it be any simpler? No grey areas, no interpretations, no waiting for a ruling, no policing. It is what it is ... the dyno sheet.

I think the series, nationwide, is getting too big to govern as it has been. A select few dictating to the masses is great when it's a bunch of friends racing on a weekend.

But, it stifles innovation. And innovation is what brings attention to the series and series sponsors.

Glenn's point about all platforms costing about the same in the end is a valid one, after I studied it a while.

Buying a cheap platform and then spending a sum of cash to bring it up to a given level of competitiveness vs buying a more expensive platform initially and then very little has to be done to it to achieve the same power goal makes perfect sense in a Dyno Sheet Rules environment.

There is no way for someone to do something "under the radar" because all the ground clutter has been removed. If suspicious, send them to the dyno.

If they bust the number, immediate suspension.

Make a rule that has some meat and requires accountability by the owner.

I like simple ...

Edited for clarificatin ...

Rsmith350
06-04-2008, 02:42 PM
Why not run with what Adam suggested ... simple!

The series is governed by the dyno sheet, period. However you want to get to the "number" ... fine.

Now, how can it be any simpler?

I think the series, nationwide, is getting too big to govern as it has been. A select few dictating to the masses is great when it's a bunch of friends racing on a weekend.

But, it stifles innovation. And innovation is what brings attention to the series and series sponsors.

Ditto!..........Ditto!

edited for clarification :lol:

Rsmith350
06-04-2008, 03:32 PM
Another point on expanding the series.....

Look at the way Jeremy and I are even involved (rough interpretation)

The only reason I am here is because of Marshall (blame is now placed :roll: )

Marshall started racing (background unknown)

Mike liked what he saw and decided to run CMC

Jeremy liked what HE saw and decided to run CMC (and possibly AI later)

I liked what I saw and (with a little help from Todd's Focus) I bought a car and am going to run CMC.

If we want to get more people into the series to support our cause then we will have to look at the nuts and bolts of this stuff and have a rule set that is simple (Adam,Mitch) and attractive to everyone. Young and old.

Rsmith350
06-04-2008, 03:34 PM
Really surprised no one has told me to SHUT UP yet. :wink:

mitchntx
06-04-2008, 04:02 PM
Really surprised no one has told me to SHUT UP yet. :wink:

Be patient ... they will ...

donovan
06-04-2008, 05:25 PM
Really surprised no one has told me to SHUT UP yet. :wink:

Don't make me lock this thread!!!!!

8)

GlennCMC70
06-04-2008, 07:42 PM
got may dayum finger on the button now David.

David Love AI27
06-04-2008, 08:29 PM
What would it take to get a 305 to 250 rwhp? Would that be possible as an alternative to switching to a 350?


My original motor was a 305 that was producing 292hp/311tq to the rear wheels... It was NOT CMC legal... It had a balanced rotating assembly with @10:1 compression, custom ground Insky cam, roller rockers, CMC legal alum . intake and Holley 650... I have no idea what heads it had... Tranny is a Richmond 4 speed connected to a 411 geared Dana 44 diff

The motor lasted a full year of 15 sessions per weekend and was super strong up until the end... I ran a 2:01 in a DE session at 3,200 lbs just before it was blown-up, not a mechanical issue...

HOWEVER, I agree that the 3rd gen is tough to tweek but it is hard to bitch too much about the car when you look at the results Wirtz and Burch are getting from the same platform... Focus on CMC... Doubt you will see a third gen on the poduim in AI unless you are willing to spend BIG bucks...


I'm in the same boat and wishing I would have gone with a 4th gen or sn95...

donovan
06-04-2008, 09:03 PM
I don't get it... the third gens are getting a bad rap here, but they are some of the fastest cars in CMC! What is the problem???

I did not read everything here, just skimmed thru it, so if I missed something let me know.

DD

mitchntx
06-04-2008, 09:15 PM
got may dayum finger on the button now David.

forum nazi

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/130/329683936_2d7daee3b4.jpg


I don't get it... the third gens are getting a bad rap here, but they are some of the fastest cars in CMC! What is the problem???

I did not read everything here, just skimmed thru it, so if I missed something let me know.

DD

And Faimonts aren't competitive ...

Someone needs to explain this to the Jeffs, Micheal and Rob ...

Wirtz
06-04-2008, 10:36 PM
For me, if I had know about the CMC / CMC2 thing when starting my car build, I would not have moved forward with a 3rd gen. I've been having fun with the car, so no real regrets, but I have stopped the development I had planned on the car till I get a better feeling for where the rules is going. The discussions about 17x9.5 rims, brigger brakes, 350s / LT1 swaps, new trannys, new diffs.... yikes, no thanks. I know none of these are set in stone, but that is my point. All I know at this point is rule changes are coming.

My opinion continues to be the merging CMC and CMC2 seems like a bad idea. Older cars like mine will need to not only dump more money to bring performance up, but we likely end up with obsolete parts in the process we end up having to offload. And for the LSx cars, nothing seems lamer than a "race car" being handicapped to be slower than otherwise stock performance should allow.

I wish I had better answers instead of concerns....

Jeff

donovan
06-04-2008, 11:44 PM
The only official discussions I heard with regards to the merger of the two classes is to bring the CMC2 cars down to CMC level... This was several months ago…

Now the CMC2 cars have 17" wheels and larger brakes... that is not a big deal either... You can run them on a FOX, I did it for 2 years, with stock fenders no mods back in 2004 and 2005 in American Iron, not sure about the third gens.

I'm just not buying into all this talk about the two classes being merged anytime soon... and until someone picks up a phone and get some facts I would not worry about it.

Why don't one of you guys with all the concerns about the two classes give Tony, Al or Todd a call and report back here what you talk about. It seems that by talking about it here and brainstorming on what we should or should not do is just scaring people and creating a possible false sense of concern.

DD :?

michaelmosty
06-05-2008, 01:48 AM
Someone needs to explain this to the Jeffs, Micheal and Rob ...
Geeze, can't even spell my name right. :roll:

:lol:

mitchntx
06-05-2008, 05:55 AM
Someone needs to explain this to the Jeffs, Micheal and Rob ...
Geeze, can't even spell my name right. :roll:

:lol:

Gleen for a day ... 8)

Rsmith350
06-05-2008, 07:17 AM
Not trying to give the 3rd gens a bad rap. I should have done more research and thought out where I wanted to go in this series before making a car choice. I will do just fine with the car i have. This discussion, which got started on another thread was never about a specific car or group of cars.


What i would like to get out of this conversation is some intelligent and well thought out plans on the future of this series and how we are going to handle things as the new generations come out

It was supposed to be some constructive banter about how new generations of cars and drivers will be integrated into the system.

This was lost in this thread awhile back.....so..........just lock it and we'll move on.

mitchntx
06-05-2008, 07:43 AM
Openly discussing pros and cons IS constructive, IMHO.

Voicing concerns, in a constructive environment, should give those that make decisions an idea of where the folks they lead want to go.

This isn't Tony's series or Todd's series, it's OUR series.

I will agree that just posting up "I'm doomed" isn't very constructive. But saying "I could be doomed because ..." is constructive.

We're like a group of siblings. We will argue at the drop of a hat and over anything ... the more trivial the better.

But when comes race day, we're all brothers in arms.

donovan
06-05-2008, 12:27 PM
I agree with you Mitch...

Just keep in mind that decision and/or changes about the series are made with the directors, sometimes with and without talking with the racers... but the racers don't make decision or changes about the series without the directors.

There's just too much speculating going on, I'm seeing people getting a little freaked out because the new guy doesn't like the decision he has made.

That is all...

People around here seem to jump to their own conclusions, discuss every angle imaginable and sometimes go talk with the upper management.

It just gets old after seeing over and over...

:o

Rsmith350
06-05-2008, 01:14 PM
There's just too much speculating going on, I'm seeing people getting a little freaked out because the new guy doesn't like the decision he has made.

Somebody on the "Miller Mustang challenge" said "There needs to be a new thread on this topic".

So I made one. It took on a life of it's own after that.

My car will be just fine in CMC (just ask JB) and it will be a blast. Look forward to racing with all of you. Not looking to stir up trouble. Just thought we could have and objective and constructive evaluation on where you guys thought we were headed and where new cars would fit. Apparently I was wrong.

I apologize.

jeffburch
06-05-2008, 01:23 PM
The only official discussions I heard with regards to the merger of the two classes is to bring the CMC2 cars down to CMC level... This was several months ago…

Now the CMC2 cars have 17" wheels and larger brakes... that is not a big deal either... You can run them on a FOX, I did it for 2 years, with stock fenders no mods back in 2004 and 2005 in American Iron, not sure about the third gens.

I'm just not buying into all this talk about the two classes being merged anytime soon... and until someone picks up a phone and get some facts I would not worry about it.

Why don't one of you guys with all the concerns about the two classes give Tony, Al or Todd a call and report back here what you talk about. It seems that by talking about it here and brainstorming on what we should or should not do is just scaring people and creating a possible false sense of concern.

DD :?

Way off here dude. There are plenty here who have discussed with the powers that be. We're continuing the discussion here as well. They aspire to merge the two. Some like it, some don't. Pro's and cons discussion, that's all. Free country. Maybe we need segregated topic categories.
CMC
AI


jb

AI#97
06-05-2008, 01:36 PM
Maybe we need segregated topic categories.
CMC
AI


jb

Nah, it's pointless to debate any rules change in AI because the directors are going to do whatever they want and don't listen to us anyway. Only thing we have to bitch about is the cost of it all! :lol:

so that being said, we (AI racers) like eating popcorn and listening to you guys rant on...it's good stuff to not be part of and just sit in the wings holding the big "there's always AI" sign!

The funny thing I find about CMC is that they call it a "spec" series but uses two brands of cars and atleast 3 versions of each brand... Now spec miata? I get that... Spec CMC? :?: :lol:

Waco Racer
06-05-2008, 01:46 PM
Now spec miata? I get that... :?: :lol:

SM has 5 different levels of prep.
















Now, where's that LAW Motorsports phone number?

donovan
06-05-2008, 02:13 PM
They aspire to merge the two. Some like it, some don't. Pro's and cons discussion, that's all. Free country.

Why is it when someone comes in and tries to get a little structure and organize a bit of communication in the right direction you guys always scream “its just conversation” “ it’s a free county” “Just thought we could have and objective and constructive evaluation”


Maybe we need segregated topic categories. CMC / AI

Is that your way of saying Shut the Fuck up?

For trying to help get a better conversation going on a contrevercial topic, I'm s o r r r r r y!!!!

I will stay far away from your CMC ways and go back to AI where I belong!

DD :(
The way you guys are handling this and going about this discussion is the same BS that keep people away from the series and runs existing people off, just so you know!, good luck building up your class.

AI#97
06-05-2008, 02:55 PM
Now, where's that LAW Motorsports phone number?

What Kool-aid are you drinkin'?! ;)

jeffburch
06-05-2008, 03:00 PM
I don't get it... I did not read everything here, just skimmed thru it, so if I missed something

There you have it.

jb

michaelmosty
06-05-2008, 03:02 PM
Hallett needs to get here fast so we can all hug it out. :lol:

mitchntx
06-05-2008, 03:30 PM
David ... it gets old to you and me and others. But the folks asking the questions are new. They've never seen the questions or the answers.

Responding to questions with "it is what it is" and "you don't get it" is a cop out. If a leader is too lazy or unmotivated to mentor the new guys, THAT'S what drives them away, not mindless internet banter.

This is the internet, not real life.

Ross ... I think your motivation was to have a constructive discussion about rules, implementation and intent.

But what you are reading is every bit as important as the actual rule base.

I stand by my impression that at some point in time, the Mom & Pop mentality of running an organization has to evolve. and maybe this series is there.

As equating AI and CMC in any way is ludicrous. AI rules seem to mimic building a car from the ground up like every other organization out there.

CMC rules are based on building a car down from the street ... 180* out of phase from the rest of the organized racing world. If it's your only exposure, it seems normal.

AI#97
06-05-2008, 04:12 PM
As equating AI and CMC in any way is ludicrous. AI rules seem to mimic building a car from the ground up like every other organization out there.

CMC rules are based on building a car down from the street ... 180* out of phase from the rest of the organized racing world. If it's your only exposure, it seems normal.

That's an interesting way of looking at it Mitch. When you really think about AI, it's essentially a clean sheet of paper that starts with a tub, firewall and shocktowers and a few other minor max/min items...The rest is a "sky is the limit" thing which IS frustrating financially when you want to remain competitive.

CMC on the other hand is just a natural progression of a track car to race car one part at a time like an old school hot rodder...

GlennCMC70
06-05-2008, 04:22 PM
i dont really agree w/ that Matt. my "Street/Track" is not even close to CMC rules.
hell, i had problems keeping my car legal for ESP for many years.

to me CMC is showroom stock as you can get w/out being showroom stock.

Alien
06-05-2008, 04:52 PM
I will say this Ross. If CMC and -2 are kept seperate, you'll have running mates for quite a while. Run that third gen long enough, and I'm sure you'll WANT to build another car. Building up a car is half the fun!

AI#97
06-05-2008, 05:14 PM
i dont really agree w/ that Matt. my "Street/Track" is not even close to CMC rules.
hell, i had problems keeping my car legal for ESP for many years.

to me CMC is showroom stock as you can get w/out being showroom stock.

I was being OVERLY general...

donovan
06-05-2008, 05:38 PM
I don't get it... the third gens are getting a bad rap here, but they are some of the fastest cars in CMC! What is the problem???
I did not read everything here, just skimmed thru it, so if I missed something let me know.
DD


I don't get it... I did not read everything here, just skimmed thru it, so if I missed something
There you have it.
jb
Don’t go there Jeff, there is no reason to take my words out of context to try and stir this up any more than it is. Two pages back and its referring to the third gen in CMC, not CMC2, nice try!
How convenient you left off the part where I ask you to let me know what I was missing!
Thanks for the great feedback and conversation!

The sad part is I had more respect for you than many others in the group, and here you are taking cheap shots. Very sorry to see that from you, I would have expected more from our National Champion. :(

Mitch, Ross and others, I agree with 90% of what is going on here, again…
I’m S o r r r y for trying to help get a better organized discussion started.

David ... it gets old to you and me and others. But the folks asking the questions are new. They've never seen the questions or the answers.
Responding to questions with "it is what it is" and "you don't get it" is a cop out. If a leader is too lazy or unmotivated to mentor the new guys, THAT'S what drives them away, not mindless internet banter.
I know exactly what you are talking about, I’m tired of the “it is what it is” and the later from TG, I have heard it and seen it way to many times. Sometimes you can’t even talk to him without him just shutting you down before you finish your question.

This is the internet, not real life.
Exactly!

Ross ... I think your motivation was to have a constructive discussion about rules, implementation and intent.
But what you are reading is every bit as important as the actual rule base.
I stand by my impression that at some point in time, the Mom & Pop mentality of running an organization has to evolve. and maybe this series is there.
Ross, no issues here, I was just trying to help the discussion move into a different direction… this is third time I have tried it with this group… and the third time I have gotten the exact same reaction. I get the impression that they would rather keep the discussion among a select group here and not try to invite someone in who might be able to explain to all of use what the future looks like from a director, or national director’s perspective. Either I’m a slow learner… or maybe I care too much about the series.
You are new around here and all the question are great, keep them coming. I certainly don’t want you to think you can’t ask questions… I encourage lots of questions and I always have. The difference is that when a simple discussion turns into what it has here I try to get key people involved… I would rather have seen some of the senior members of the CMC crew make an attempt to do that, but like I said they seem to like the internal struggles.

DD

Rsmith350
06-05-2008, 05:54 PM
someone who might be able to explain to all of use what the future looks like

That was EXACTLY my intention.


all the question are great, keep them coming. I certainly don’t want you to think you can’t ask questions… I encourage lots of questions and I always have.

Thanks for that.



Ross ... I think your motivation was to have a constructive discussion about rules, implementation and intent.
But what you are reading is every bit as important as the actual rule base.
I stand by my impression that at some point in time, the Mom & Pop mentality of running an organization has to evolve. and maybe this series is there.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

My intention was never to get ANYONE in the group fighting among themselves. I'm going to go work on my car now and try to get it finished.

donovan
06-05-2008, 05:59 PM
If I was closer I would come give you a hand!!!

8)
DD

AI#97
06-05-2008, 06:05 PM
For the record, I have not hacked DD's account! :lol:

David, you have typed more in the last few posts than you have in 2 years combined! Rrrreeelaaaaxxx!!! 8)

jeffburch
06-05-2008, 06:59 PM
The only official discussions I heard with regards to the merger of the two classes is to bring the CMC2 cars down to CMC level... This was several months ago…

Now the CMC2 cars have 17" wheels and larger brakes... that is not a big deal either... You can run them on a FOX, I did it for 2 years, with stock fenders no mods back in 2004 and 2005 in American Iron, not sure about the third gens.

I'm just not buying into all this talk about the two classes being merged anytime soon... and until someone picks up a phone and get some facts I would not worry about it.

Why don't one of you guys with all the concerns about the two classes give Tony, Al or Todd a call and report back here what you talk about. It seems that by talking about it here and brainstorming on what we should or should not do is just scaring people and creating a possible false sense of concern.

DD :?

Way off here dude. There are plenty here who have discussed with the powers that be. We're continuing the discussion here as well. They aspire to merge the two. Some like it, some don't. Pro's and cons discussion, that's all. Free country. Maybe we need segregated topic categories.
CMC
AI


jb

DD,
How do you run me off in the ditch for what's quoted above?
I don't deserve it.
Not one derogatory comment.
They are all from you.


jb

On The High Road

donovan
06-05-2008, 07:17 PM
I have not try to stop any discussoion going on here and never have... but I have tried to get more information on the table and tried to get folks talking among themselves to get info from the upper managment, mainly for the sake of the new folks that are the ones asking the questions and have not heard it all yet.

It was more than a pros and cons discussion, people are reading more into what is going on, or speculating on what is going to happen.

The "Free Conunty" line I felt was a jab... I want the discusion as much as anyone else, I just want more info brought into it and more facts from above!

Then the "Maybe we need segregated topic categories, CMC AI..."

I took that as you thought the AI guys "Me" need to go talk somewhere else! or not so politley, Shut the F up!

Did I take it the wrong way?
DD

No matter what we all know we get a group hug at the next event!!! :D

jeffburch
06-05-2008, 07:29 PM
Just as I would not assume your above statement is an apology, you should not have put words in MY mouth.

If I resort to that type of language, it will be perfectly clear and fro good reason.


jb
in the ditch

donovan
06-05-2008, 07:41 PM
Then I do applogise for all of the above, I made assuptions that were not correct.

DD :oops:

donovan
06-05-2008, 07:47 PM
For the record, I have not hacked DD's account! :lol:

David, you have typed more in the last few posts than you have in 2 years combined! Rrrreeelaaaaxxx!!! 8)

I have a tooth ache and no meds... can I use that as an excuse!


I still think there is some needed direction from national on what there plan is.

I would love to see a 5 year plan for the series with regards to CMC/CMC2... and how they plan to get there.

Anyone want to see if they can get that out of the West Coast?

GlennCMC70
06-05-2008, 07:54 PM
thats the problem David, even the West Coast does not know how/if CMC and CMC-2 will get combined. its a goal, but they just do not know how to get there. it will take solutions provided and tested by folks from w/in CMC.
my message was clear (i hope), that the plan is to not leave any one platform out. if that is a possibility, they will most likely keep the 2 class's separate.

Adam Ginsberg
06-05-2008, 09:37 PM
I would love to see a 5 year plan for the series with regards to CMC/CMC2... and how they plan to get there.

Anyone want to see if they can get that out of the West Coast?

It's been discussed more than once since I've been here. During the SPIR event in a few weeks, I plan to bring it up with the entire group, directors and all, with the hope to get it out on paper.

Simply put - CMC/CMC2 needs a "Road Map" that allows folks with existing CMC cars, as well as new folks building cars, to make informed buying decisions.

AI#97
06-05-2008, 10:30 PM
I have a tooth ache and no meds... can I use that as an excuse!



I was wondering who threw the sand in your panties! Just didn't sound like you at all!


You guys are all looking for a map that will never exist. There is no plan and I don't think they intend to ever have one...just prep your car the best you can afford and if that isn't good enough, sell and go to a cheaper class to run. Seriously, are we racing wallets or cars... If national fucks up the rules and car counts suffer...things will change back. The only constant is YOUR wallets will fund all the changes and mistakes along the way that THEY make. Welcome to racing...something about playing in a sandbox that isn't yours...? :cry:

Jeremy Gunter
06-05-2008, 11:37 PM
maybe I am missing something here. but why call it CMC 2? why not just another step/jump? CMC is the king in Texas today, but tomorrow will hold a different set of racers, some old and experienced some new and crazy.
(like ross and I) (shouldn't put words in Ross's mouth, but I am sure he will agree)
"CMC2" will grow. as kids come up and their dream car was not a fox or third gen, but a 5th gen or SN97. Guys will still build cars on the cheap to go out and compete. And it will still be a favorite to watch!

The directors are busy with other stuff, including their own families and lives, why take up their time figuring out how to get a 1986 third gen and a 2008 GT mustang to be equal, just give it a different name and save them the trouble. We will still take the same green, on the same track, on the same weekend, in the same pit, sharing the same homebrew with the same group of badass guys.

Sure the classes won't be even, but would the effort by our directors be better spent testing telemetry on cars spanning 25 years or researching ways to get 15+ cars per class each weekend?

edited for Glennism's :shock:

Rsmith350
06-06-2008, 06:13 AM
We will still take the same green, on the same track, on the same weekend, in the same pit, sharing the same homebrew with the same group of badass guys.

That's what I'm talkin about!!

mitchntx
06-06-2008, 07:05 AM
There is a whole new generation of racers headed our way. New does not mean stoopid. Fresh ideas, fresh perspectives, fresh points of view are welcome as fas as I'm concerned.

A slippery slope doesn't always face downhill ...




Sure the classes won't be even, but would the effort by our directors be better spent testing telemetry on cars spanning 25 years or researching ways to get 15+ cars per class each weekend?


Damn ... Jeremy, for a Ford guy, you're pretty sharp. :P

Thanks for the reality check!!!!!!

AI#97
06-06-2008, 08:18 AM
Sure the classes won't be even, but would the effort by our directors be better spent testing telemetry on cars spanning 25 years or researching ways to get 15+ cars per class each weekend?


Pretty much a sad reality that they are spinning their wheels jerking around trying to homologate cars that don't exist in the series all the while pissing off their existing core racers....AND fail to build the series through marketing and such.

Oh, that's right, this is their hobby job done on the side... Until NASA can generate enough money that the 8 or 10 "players" that run the show can do this full time, we are just going to have to settle with what they can dedicate to it.

Besides, Jeremy was right, it's not about the winning and glory, it's about hanging out at the track and shootin' the shit with ya'll!

GlennCMC70
06-06-2008, 08:19 AM
one thing to remember is the SCCA and T2 cars have a life span. after a number of years (5 or 6) they are no longer legal for T2. NASA is smart to do their best to give those guys a place to race. that place is CMC-2.
you guys are correct that it would be nice to have 15+ car fields in CMC and CMC-2. but i would rather see 30 car fields in CMC or CMC-2. i wish we had so many cars that only the top 50 qual times were allowed to race.

if i were you guys w/ the 5.0 cars, i wouldnt worry about it.
i think Adam is on the right track getting w/ Tony and looking to get some info out there about this. dont think it hasnt been done, but he may get farther than others. one thing to remember is to not get emotional about this. present your thoughts to Tony in a civil manner. he will listen if you just talk w/ him.

donovan
06-06-2008, 08:27 AM
one thing to remember is the SCCA and T2 cars have a life span. after a number of years (5 or 6) they are no longer legal for T2. NASA is smart to do their best to give those guys a place to race. that place is CMC-2.
you guys are correct that it would be nice to have 15+ car fields in CMC and CMC-2. but i would rather see 30 car fields in CMC or CMC-2. i wish we had so many cars that only the top 50 qual times were allowed to race.

if i were you guys w/ the 5.0 cars, i wouldnt worry about it.
i think Adam is on the right track getting w/ Tony and looking to get some info out there about this. dont think it hasnt been done, but he may get farther than others. one thing to remember is to not get emotional about this. present your thoughts to Tony in a civil manner. he will listen if you just talk w/ him.

Right on... also keep in mind that if they only hear it from Adam "We need a road map and a plan for _____________" that is just one voice... I suggest that if you are conserned and you want that map... or whatever you want to call it, ask them as well. The more people that contact then and ask the more they will become concerned.

DD

michaelmosty
06-06-2008, 08:42 AM
All I am concerned about is whoopin everyone's ASS at Hallett!! :twisted:

GlennCMC70
06-06-2008, 08:44 AM
i would be too if it was you. you dont have a chance in hell and your record there sucks! :P

mitchntx
06-06-2008, 10:20 AM
I hope this thread becomes a constructive and pertinent discussion.


All I am concerned about is whoopin everyone's ASS at Hallett!! :twisted:


i would be too if it was you. you dont have a chance in hell and your record there sucks! :P

Full circle ... 8)

The only thing I'll add is to keep in mind that we ALL have to spend money "to make the number" regardless of platform.

We've all had to spend money to keep the power trains alive regardless of platform.

We've all had our share of internet glory regardless of platform.

I really do think all the hoopla about spending mega-dollars is a non-issue. I honestly think that if a formula that is REASONABLY cost effective is discovered, then the 2 classes will merge. If not, then it will be CMC/CMC2 till does happen.

But, to make it happen, there are gonna have to be some paradigm changes, like aftermarket engine components, ECM alterations, weight penalties, etc.

Evolve ...

Boudy
06-06-2008, 11:34 AM
This is all very interesting to me as I just spent upwards of $3,500 on my 5 liter. $1,800 plus on a full rebuild and an additional $1,600 plus on Cobra parts. I haven't dyno'd it yet but my set-up reportedly barely makes the numbers in TX. I say TX because CA cars seam to magically make 20 HP more with the same set-ups.

I've heard of the goal to eventually have a single CMC class again but I just don't see it as possible without a negative impact to the series as a whole. CMC was built on cost containment and the formula works well. There is just too much delta between 20 years of cars in some 6 or 7 plateforms. It's impossible to equalize an LS1 and 302/305 without costing somebody a fortune. Not to mention wheels, brakes, and other factors that would probably make building older cars cost prohibited.

Keeping the classes seperate would allow for the most cost efficient racing within each as opposed to certain guys having to spend much more based on platform of choice. Do you force the LS1 guy to down grade wheels, engine, brakes, ect to fit in or do you force the 5 liter guys upgrade the same? Either way, there's too much delta present and trying to equalize the them all is a very expesive proposition. As I see it, CMC has evolved into 2 classes. It's simply where Detroit forced us to go and it's probably best left that way for the health of CMC now and in the future.

rb

GlennCMC70
06-06-2008, 11:56 AM
its the Fords that are the problem w/ the 17" wheels and 13" brakes.
the LS1 4th gens all came w/ 12" brakes and 16" wheels.
but i hear what your saying.

Boudy
06-06-2008, 12:57 PM
Yes, semantics dude. semantics. Main point being that merging CMC and CMC2 will only move it in the opposite direction of being a cost effective series. If someone did figure out a cost effective way to do it, I would be truly interested in reading the implementation plan.

Currently it takes 10 pages of crap to get parties to agree that something should even be looked at for possible adjustment. The idea for adjustments only seems to sit well with the party asking for the changes. Simply human nature, nothing more. With that said, just how in the world would after market parts and weight penalties be implemented? How are after market parts be tested for allowance? Which ones become legal? Blah, blah... <---- Rhetorical questions to provoke thought, not arguement. Any adjustment recommended for one gets profusely protested by the other as not needed and nothing gets accomplished. I just think it's better left alone.

rb

BryanL
06-06-2008, 02:17 PM
I love the rules the way they are :roll:
Next subject (do some of you guys have too much time on your hands..).
Tony Guaglione
Taken from this thread
http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2831&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45

Here are a few threads from the nat. site that may be of interest.

http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2545&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=cmc2&start=15

http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2689&highlight=cmc2


Man-all this drama over my little aluminum engine. I like Mosty's attitude. My rookie plate is coming off and I'm going to break out at Hallett :lol:
Lots of posts to touch upon so I will work backwards.
Boudy-good to hear you are fixing the car up as you are missed around the track. I find it interesting that you spent $3,400 on a rebuilt 5.0. What if you could have just bought a new Ford crate motor (if there was such a motor approved for CMC2) for the same price and sold your old stuff? Might have been nice to have that option if you wanted to run CMC 2.
I agree that everyone would like to know what the long term plans are but I wouldn't worry about CMC going away unless the powers that be screw up the rules. I don't think the directors really know what is going to happen and are using the current CMC2 rules to have some data that can be used to develop the class.
I'm looking forward to hearing Mitch's experience at hallett with the 275's.
I think the upgrading brakes is a little overrated. It was added to the CMC2 rules because of the weight we are required to run. I believe they made it legal to upgrade brakes as a cost effective measure over the long haul.
Ok-I'm tired of typing-take over Mitch.

mitchntx
06-06-2008, 02:18 PM
Timing is everything .... :lol:


Yes, semantics dude. semantics. Main point being that merging CMC and CMC2 will only move it in the opposite direction of being a cost effective series. If someone did figure out a cost effective way to do it, I would be truly interested in reading the implementation plan.


Semantics and perspectives ...

As the owner of a Fox, yes, it might cost a few zeros to be percieved as competitive.

But the owner of an LSx based car has to choke his platform down to the point of it not running right and cause potential problems.

I can see where you and Adam DON'T want it because it's money form YOUR pocket. I can see where Bryan is coming from because it's money coming from HIS pocket.

So, main point being, if it costs a person cash, it's a bad thing to do.

I think what is happening is not what is good (or bad) for a specific group of racers, but what is good (or bad) for the series, long term.

donovan
06-06-2008, 03:00 PM
Well-well look. I already told you: I deal with the goddamn customers so the engineers don't have to! I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?

:D

Fbody383
06-06-2008, 03:26 PM
Yeah! What they said...

I didn't want to feel left out.

Jeremy Gunter
06-06-2008, 03:35 PM
Well-well look. I already told you: I deal with the goddamn customers so the engineers don't have to! I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?
:D

Glad to see you got some scripts DD. :P

Mitch, I'm just another dumb Ford guy... ask Boudy!

I understand why CMC2 was built, but why not change the name of it... (if they decide not to join the two)... Only reason I say this is because CMC2 is burned into our minds as a temporary class name. Although that sounds childish, it is a solution that would ease some of the pain of splitting... again if they decide it's not financially possible to group both classes.
Something like CMC G2 for generation two or American Muscle Challenge, or CMC 2K or CMC-M for millenium or GDM, for Glenn's Da Man!

On a lighter side, I sure am glad I have a car that can run both classes!

AI#97
06-06-2008, 03:46 PM
All you hosers just need to quit your bitch'n and just run AI!!! :lol:

You are all fighting to make things equal...in AI, we don't care about equal, just don't make us spend more money for no reason! :wink:

Rsmith350
06-06-2008, 04:18 PM
On a lighter side, I sure am glad I have a car that can run both classes!

Don't think i don't know what you meant by that......A$$!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Boudy
06-06-2008, 04:18 PM
I think what is happening is not what is good (or bad) for a specific group of racers, but what is good (or bad) for the series, long term.

Correct, I'm in for what's good for CMC's long term.

I just believe that a major reorg driving up the cost of a few and/or all platforms in CMC for the sake of a single class is bad for CMC in the long run. It's not about Adam, Bryan, myself, or any other racer at this point, it's about the big picture.

Bryan: Actually I spent about $1,800 on a rebuilt 5.0. The rest was spent on Cobra crap to close the gap between 208 HP and 230 HP due to a rules change. In reality, a $250 Ford Motorsports camshaft would have done the same thing. But that's a different thread...

Today is travel day. I hope to be home for a few weeks as I've only spent 8 days there in the last 10 or so weeks. I'm hoping to make Hallett.

Got a plane to catch. Later,

rb

mitchntx
06-06-2008, 04:22 PM
I'm hoping to make Hallett.


Like I said ... if you need help getting the beast back together advertise a day when you want "us" to show up and we'll be there for you, Robert.

Racers helping racers, right?

Al Fernandez
06-06-2008, 05:27 PM
Guys, first of all, apologies for having been quiet for so long...I've been travelling a lot for work, and as has been said, this is just a hobby :wink:

On the CMC site there are several good threads that were created when we first launched CMC2. In there, and many places since, we've stated that the goal is to have one CMC class. If we prove to ourselves that it cant be done, or that the cost of doing it is too much to bear, then we'll give up. I doubt either of those will be the case, but I'm a glass is half full kind of guy.

The reality is time marches on, and leaving CMC as CMC was would only ensure a slow and painful death like spec rx7 has enjoyed. What happened to them? They stoped evolving and as new drivers came in they came into other series with newer platforms.

We needed to have a place for the more modern hardware to run, and we just dont have the resources to test on the level that would be needed to bring them in with one fell swoop...hence the plan was hatched to bring them in under their own group (CMC2) and learn what they can/cant do, and try to figure it out.

This is not too different to what happened when we first let the 4th gens in (they werent allowed at one point...who here is ready to say having them now is a bad thing?? Quiet Jeff! :wink: ) When we first allowed the 4th gens there were horror stories of how they'd become class killers. People thought there was no way a fox would compete with the "drastically superior front end geometry" etc. Well, we figured it out pretty much.

So...the goal as of now is to have one CMC class. The timing is likely to be measured in years. One step at a time, with the first being determining for sure just how low can we take a stock LS1 down to and then developing roadmaps for the existing platforms to get up to wherever that goal ends up being.

BUT...rest assured no matter what we wont leave any platform behind, thats just not an option.

michaelmosty
06-06-2008, 05:46 PM
i would be too if it was you. you dont have a chance in hell and your record there sucks! :P
I do hold the air time and distance record. :shock:

Jeremy Gunter
06-06-2008, 08:18 PM
On a lighter side, I sure am glad I have a car that can run both classes!

Don't think i don't know what you meant by that......A$$!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

8)

BryanL
06-06-2008, 09:23 PM
i would be too if it was you. you dont have a chance in hell and your record there sucks! :P
I do hold the air time and distance record. :shock:

UH OH. Looks like its "ON LIKE DONKEY KONG!"

Thanks for the words of wisdom Charger. I would like to have some feedback from the Left Coast about CMC2 since they have had some decent participation in the class from different platforms. My bet is that TG will make some changes to handicap the LS1 against the mustang since they can't keep up with "Da Man Dave Shotz"

Back to ice cream and beer.

AllZWay
06-07-2008, 09:18 AM
I understand why CMC2 was built, but why not change the name of it... (if they decide not to join the two)... Only reason I say this is because CMC2 is burned into our minds as a temporary class name. !

I actually said the same thing and thought the name should be something different.

Rob Liebbe
06-07-2008, 04:18 PM
Gee - slow, ratty sounding RX7's are nowhere near as cool as V8 Mustangs and Camaros. Nobody runs to the fence to see the RX7's race.

Long Live CMC!!!!!!!!!!!! 8)

Alien
07-08-2008, 05:41 PM
So...the goal as of now is to have one CMC class. The timing is likely to be measured in years. One step at a time, with the first being determining for sure just how low can we take a stock LS1 down to and then developing roadmaps for the existing platforms to get up to wherever that goal ends up being.

BUT...rest assured no matter what we wont leave any platform behind, thats just not an option.

So much for keeping them seperate for a few years. One year. :x
http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2889&highlight=

AI#97
07-08-2008, 05:46 PM
So much for keeping them seperate for a few years. One year. :x
http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2889&highlight=

Quit your complaining or move to AI!! :lol:

michaelmosty
07-08-2008, 05:55 PM
I think it would be beneficial to see a list (ASAP) of changes for each platform.
If the Fox's, SN95's, and 3rd gens are going to be upping the power we would all greatly appreciate to know what to buy for this so we can be keeping our eyes open.

Alien
07-08-2008, 05:58 PM
AI? No thanks, I'ld rather go run wik ASedan cause I know what road they are heading down. :shock: Didn't see this CMC road 2 years ago.

You see, wik CMC, I can still not get completly out dragged wik my 209hp 180k mile motor. If I show up wik that in 2010, it won't matter how much my driving improves, I still won't be able to keep up unless I fork over some cash.

To someone who is coming into CMC, they can't just get a 3rd gen or Fox, throw in the safety reqs and go racing. Now you will have to buy whatever they allow to get the hp up... and wheels... and ...

Yes, I realize to run up front you have to spend money. I'm sure anyone who goes to nats has a somewhat fresh motor. It's a choice. Spend money run up front. Have used equip, run midpack/rear. Now it's a case of upgrade or die.

Guess I'm just more ticked at how short the time frame is... one year. I say one year even tho it's only July because I bet it takes awhile for the list of upgrades to come out to the masses. And for someone on a small budget who is just happy to be able to pay gas to GET to events, a year isn't much.

michaelmosty
07-08-2008, 06:11 PM
I don't think this is going to be that crazy of a change. I am not that educated on the CMC2 rules so this a shoot from the hip.
I see the big changes being HP, brakes, wheels/tires.

For a Fox, getting to 260 hp "should" be $300-500. A set of shorty headers and a camshaft should get you there. Marshall's 1st motor built back in 2004 was basically my exact motor with JBA headers and a Trickflow camshaft. He made 259 hp.

The other main factors that I foresee are brakes and wheels/tires. Brakes might be good for the long-run with better wear and durability but if you can lock-em up now, you'll still lock-em up with bigger brakes.

Testing will tell the difference for wheels and tires. 17's weigh more but have more grip, what will the result be???

I know nothing about 3rd gens and the 305, I just hope your extra motor power is as easy to get.

BryanL
07-08-2008, 06:24 PM
MM-Differences between cmc/2 would be 17's, and upgraded brakes, and we run a different weight to power ratio. You can figure out the 17's or know what you need to run them. I wouldn't be surprised if the upgraded brakes gets thrown out. They did that for a durability issue with the heavier weight of the CMC2 cars. I don't know of anyone that has upgraded the brakes and if they are really needed. Since 2 will be allowed to come down in weight there will be less of a reason to upgrade brakes. Though there may be some mustangs with bigger brakes from the factory that are racing already??

I think its great that they are letting people know fairly far in advance of the proposed changes. Now its a matter of finding out what the spec parts packages will be to bring the hp up.
MM-you should PM Tony with that information as they probably have a database of stuff they are looking at to decide what to allow.

I ordered more restrictors yesterday and hope to dyno to get some new numbers for the upcoming seasons.

AI#97
07-08-2008, 06:59 PM
Guess I'm just more ticked at how short the time frame is... one year. I say one year even tho it's only July because I bet it takes awhile for the list of upgrades to come out to the masses. And for someone on a small budget who is just happy to be able to pay gas to GET to events, a year isn't much.

I am just giving you crap! Trust me, I see it the same way you do. What's going to be interesting is that "CMC" is just going to be AI lite with steel panels and no Aero... I would imagine in other regions, they are all going to look alike and probably run the same speeds.

As for going to NATS with a fresh motor....not here. Same one that went in the car in April of 07 and has seen TONS of track time. Hope it holds together!

I just hope NASA gets with Toyo and tells them to make a SHITLOAD more 275/40/17's because the AI boys so far ain't going to 18's... That's going to be a TON of cars running the same spec tire that goes low on stock mid year all the f'n time! Man I feel like broken record...

Rob Liebbe
07-08-2008, 07:28 PM
I don't understand why CMC and CMC2 can't remain seperate?

I don't buy the argument that the spectators can't tell them apart and its confusing argument. The spectators cant tell CMC and AI apart now. Oh wait - what spectators?

Leave them seperate, the later cars are different and should be classed different. CMC cars may eventually fade away by attrition and then the old CMC guys will build into the newer cars.

Long Live CMC!

Alien
07-08-2008, 07:49 PM
I am just giving you crap!
You giving out crap?!? Say it ain't so! :D

Guess I'm just a guy. My girlfriend just cut her hair short and got highlights... It's all too much to take in for one week... I don't like change.

Rob, TKO is looking pretty good right about now, huh?

Rsmith350
07-08-2008, 07:59 PM
My girlfriend just cut her hair short and got highlights... It's all too much to take in for one week... I don't like change.


Mine did the same thing!! I feel for ya brother!

NickV
07-08-2008, 08:06 PM
I think it would be beneficial to see a list (ASAP) of changes for each platform.
If the Fox's, SN95's, and 3rd gens are going to be upping the power we would all greatly appreciate to know what to buy for this so we can be keeping our eyes open.

No doubt. I've got a bone stock 305 sitting on an engine stand waiting to be put in my future CMC racer. I'd like to know what my options are as far as power upgrades so I can see what I'm getting in to.

Wirtz
07-08-2008, 08:09 PM
.... 17's weigh more but have more grip, what will the result be???


From my experience, this is one of the things that bugs me the most about the changes. Many of you know I used to race ITS, and we could run a 7" rim and any tire you could squeeze onto it. Any race car is fun to drive, but it turned the cars into little grip buggies, waayyy over tired. Maybe the saving grace here will be the still spec Toyo.

One of the things that drew me in to CMC was the somewhat small spec tire. I like the fact that you need to have control on all the pedals and not treat them as simple on off switches. I dono, maybe I need to go look into rally instead....

*edit* I didn't mean for that last comment to sound like an "I'm outta here", it was just a comment to what I enjoy as a driver.

Jeff

Rsmith350
07-08-2008, 08:19 PM
This comes at a really bad time for me. My motor is in the shop right now getting freshened up and I just spent a bunch of money trying to keep my third gen as stock as possible. So basically I have to stop everything I'm doing right now except for body work........... :evil:

Damn!! and I just got started again :cry:

jeffburch
07-08-2008, 08:32 PM
A 1.6 roller rocker and maybe a cam may fix my problem.


jb

mitchntx
07-08-2008, 08:43 PM
This comes at a really bad time for me. My motor is in the shop right now getting freshened up and I just spent a bunch of money trying to keep my third gen as stock as possible. So basically I have to stop everything I'm doing right now except for body work........... :evil:

Damn!! and I just got started again :cry:

Don't stop. Forge ahead and come go racing.

I've had a few conversations with other racers since Hallett about how competitive and segregated we've become. Maybe there was something to Eric's arguements that we're tearing ourselves apart at the seams.

Newbs were asking experienced racers questions and told to 'go away, you bother me, boy' kind of responses.

We all know winning is a blast. But just competing is where it's at. You don't have to kill the car or the racer next to you to have a shit-load of fun.

Just come out and enjoy racing. getting all hyped and driven to win makes your ego inflate beyond bandwidth capacities. 8)

mitchntx
07-08-2008, 08:47 PM
.... 17's weigh more but have more grip, what will the result be???


From my experience, this is one of the things that bugs me the most about the changes. Many of you know I used to race ITS, and we could run a 7" rim and any tire you could squeeze onto it. Any race car is fun to drive, but it turned the cars into little grip buggies, waayyy over tired. Maybe the saving grace here will be the still spec Toyo.

Jeff

Hallett was my first weekend on 17s. The 17" wheel/tire package weighs more than the 16" and I could feel the difference exiting the corner. Throttle response just wasn't "crisp".

But going back and looking, my best laptime was over 2 seconds faster than last year. That makes me 1 second off the CMC pace. :roll:

chris-CMC#35
07-08-2008, 09:59 PM
We all know winning is a blast. But just competing is where it's at. You don't have to kill the car or the racer next to you to have a shit-load of fun.

This is true to a certain extent. But I can tell you, having raced in Texas with 180hp and then at Hallett with 223hp: if your car doesn't have competitive numbers, there is a very limited amount of fun you can have...

-chris

Alien
07-08-2008, 10:15 PM
Many of you know I used to race ITS
AH HA!! so you're the one who brought the SCCA rules creep to NASA!
:twisted:

I dono, maybe I need to go look into rally instead....

Jeff
I have a set of 4 KC Daylighters from the Monza rallycar I may sell ya... be be warned, gravel and dirt roads are hell on paint :D

AI#97
07-08-2008, 10:23 PM
The spectators cant tell CMC and AI apart now. Oh wait - what spectators?


Yeah, as hinted in another thread, pretty sad when 3 weeks of prep for a car show and burn out contest with some fireworks draws 1200 times more than a race weekend can.... :cry:

Not to mention that when looking for sponsors to fund this little habit, you have to agree that the most exposure they will get is while on the trailer on the way to the track...guess that's why I don't have the enclosed trailer anymore! :oops:

Guess my dream of being BIGGER than just MFW is fizzling! :lol:

jeffburch
07-09-2008, 12:01 AM
Yup.
You have to ask yourself; how would a Humpy Wheeler promote a bunch like us?

jb

AllZWay
07-09-2008, 08:19 AM
I was ticked off when CMC2 was created....and this just adds fuel to that old fire.

I expected this day to come, but I was not ever looking forward to being AI-lite.

I am lucky in that my car is a simple pull of the resctrictor, so I don't have a complaint as much as the Fox's and 3rd gens do, but I see new wheels and bigger brakes in the future. :evil:

Waco Racer
07-09-2008, 08:40 AM
Yup.
You have to ask yourself; how would a Humpy Wheeler promote a bunch like us?

jb

I do, at least 4 times a month.

mitchntx
07-09-2008, 08:48 AM
I was ticked off when CMC2 was created....and this just adds fuel to that old fire.

I expected this day to come, but I was not ever looking forward to being AI-lite.

I am lucky in that my car is a simple pull of the resctrictor, so I don't have a complaint as much as the Fox's and 3rd gens do, but I see new wheels and bigger brakes in the future. :evil:

For a series marketed as simple and stable, it sure has been a bumpy few years.

Rob Liebbe
07-09-2008, 01:48 PM
This is my response posted on National Forum.

***************************************

I personally still object to the move to consolidate CMC and CMC2.

The "low end" cost of running a "near factory" car with parts I had on-hand was one of the main draws for me to go CMC. Reliability and cost effectiveness was a huge factor for me when commiting to CMC over AI. Now you are saying that I will need to upgrade and/or reconsider several systems on my car to deal with the rigors of more horsepower and added weight. This includes engine, transmission, cooling, brakes, tires, wheels, etc. I don't believe it is as simple as putting in a cam and bolting on headers and a throttle body. That may get you the number on the dyno easy enough, but making it live on the track will be different. The later model CMC2 cars were designed from the factory with these new levels in mind and should already be able to run at that level with relative ease. They have the proper engineering and packaging for the aforementioned vehicle systems.

In the end, I still don't see the real need to combine the early cars and the later cars. I've heard some of the arguments from car count to sponsorship considerations. It seems like car count would decrease from the combination by taking away some flexibility in vehicle choice where having both CMC and CMC2 adds flexibility and would increase car count.

It seems like you are forcing those with current CMC cars who are currently happy to spend more money to upgrade to CMC2 for no real reason.

I'll stop rambling now, but I still don't see the need to combine the early and later cars. The two "generations" of cars are different and can and should be treated differently.

Rob Liebbe
Texas Region
1989 Mustang - CMC #1

******************************

LONG LIVE CMC (The original - not the proposal)

ShadowBolt
07-09-2008, 02:35 PM
I was ticked off when CMC2 was created....and this just adds fuel to that old fire.

I expected this day to come, but I was not ever looking forward to being AI-lite.

I am lucky in that my car is a simple pull of the resctrictor, so I don't have a complaint as much as the Fox's and 3rd gens do, but I see new wheels and bigger brakes in the future. :evil:


As a Fox owner this does not bother me at all unless this makes it hard to get a motor to last. I really don't understand why we would need larger brakes or tires? Jay ran his heaver and faster Mach One for three years of DE's with the same brakes we run in CMC without issue.

JJ

Todd Covini
07-09-2008, 03:23 PM
Good post, Rob.
That original CMC formula and philosophy is exactly what we are trying to keep in tact.

10 Years ago, the CMC power #'s and parts were consistent with what entry level racers were bringing to convert their street cars.

Today, the power #'s and parts that the contemporary pony cars have are above that of the current CMC level.

The reality of it is, in order to keep the feeder pool of new CMC drivers bringing their street cars to enter the CMC ranks, we need to keep with the times. I noted recently that used car lots now have numerous S197 Mustangs and 4th Gen Camaros on their lots at bargain prices and 3Gen & Fox cars are no longer the norm.

Our challenge will be to evolve with minimal effect to current CMC Fox/3G racers. This change has a huge impact on my car since it is Speed Density. I'm maxed out on power for my ECU. In order for me to make any engine changes, I'll need to convert to Mass Air and find 30 HP to a package which has been rock solid for me for over 10 years of racing (no comments please).

Short term, the change sucks. Long term...and in the bigger picture, it's best for the series as a whole. As far as the timing and the details, treat this as we did for the HANS requirement. The date may slide and the details will continue to be evaluated...but ultimately, it's where we need to head to when the time and details are right.

Todd Covini
Director

ShadowBolt
07-09-2008, 04:08 PM
Are the newer cars way heavier? If not, why do we need to go with larger brakes and larger wheels and tires. Is there no formula that we could use for power to weight to make a fox car at 230/300 even with a CMC-2 car? Years ago (in the late 70's) I helped a guy that ran 1/4 mile round-d-round. In the faster classes (super stock) you could run a big block or a small block and everything was equaled out using weight.

Jerry

michaelmosty
07-09-2008, 04:14 PM
I am just speculating but I would think the heaviest car (LS1 or S197) would be around 3250?

They currently run 280 hp @ 3360. By changing to 260 should definitely lower their weight.

That being said, I would think all weights will need to be re-thought for all platforms.

Alien
07-09-2008, 05:16 PM
The reality of it is, in order to keep the feeder pool of new CMC drivers bringing their street cars to enter the CMC ranks, we need to keep with the times. I noted recently that used car lots now have numerous S197 Mustangs and 4th Gen Camaros on their lots at bargain prices and 3Gen & Fox cars are no longer the norm.
Todd Covini
Director
This works both ways tho. There are still newcomers who find bargain deals on 3Gs and foxes. While it will help those who have 4th gens and S197s, it makes the guys/girls wik the old cars reconsider joining.

Rob Liebbe
07-09-2008, 05:45 PM
It also makes the older cars that don't get updated obsolete and have no place to run. OK , you can run, but you may go from a front runner to a back marker. That's ok, the housing market has tanked, I guess my CMC car value should go to zero as well. Burch, you better sell your car quick!!!

I still don't like the idea. Why doesn't a similar but different class work. Like GTO and GTU?

I keep hearing that this change is where the class needs to go, but I don't recall hearing the reasons why. I don't want to just drink the KoolAid.

jeffburch
07-09-2008, 06:10 PM
Yup, that old hooptie is leading the points.
I'll do it again next year aswell to punish all for not getting a pool together on it. :wink:
:D
jb

Rsmith350
07-09-2008, 06:28 PM
man this really sucks ya'll. I need DETAILS!!! All I can do right now is bodywork and cage stuff!! I'm building an obsolete car!!!!



ok panic over.....I'm good. :shock:

mitchntx
07-09-2008, 07:06 PM
Good post, Rob.
That original CMC formula and philosophy is exactly what we are trying to keep in tact.

10 Years ago, the CMC power #'s and parts were consistent with what entry level racers were bringing to convert their street cars.

Today, the power #'s and parts that the contemporary pony cars have are above that of the current CMC level.



Forgive me for being naive, but that sounds like robbing Peter to pay Paul, cutting off the left hand to spite the right, banging Hilary and voting for Obama ...

Placing a group of racers in a corner and saying "Oh well" is no better than saying sorry, "your car is too new".



The reality of it is, in order to keep the feeder pool of new CMC drivers bringing their street cars to enter the CMC ranks, we need to keep with the times. I noted recently that used car lots now have numerous S197 Mustangs and 4th Gen Camaros on their lots at bargain prices and 3Gen & Fox cars are no longer the norm.


Your reality obviously means more than other's reality.

From where I stand, newcomers are witnessing significant swings in the rules. History means nothing to those guys, only those still living and worshiping it.

The reality is a series of steps in place for a person to go racing and then a buffet of classes to chose where to race.

The idea of 50 cars in CMC is better than 25 in CMC and 25 in CMC2 is ludicrous. In order to maintain a place to race, CMC has to build NASA and keep NASA afloat. Choices is what the future will hold.



Our challenge will be to evolve with minimal effect to current CMC Fox/3G racers. This change has a huge impact on my car since it is Speed Density. I'm maxed out on power for my ECU. In order for me to make any engine changes, I'll need to convert to Mass Air and find 30 HP to a package which has been rock solid for me for over 10 years of racing (no comments please).


Rock solid in some cases and light as a feather in others ... ;)




Short term, the change sucks. Long term...and in the bigger picture, it's best for the series as a whole. As far as the timing and the details, treat this as we did for the HANS requirement. The date may slide and the details will continue to be evaluated...but ultimately, it's where we need to head to when the time and details are right.

Todd Covini
Director

No one has explained how merging the 2 classes is "better'?

You brought up the history of CMC and the roots of the series, how is forcing the cornerstone of CMC racing (3G and Fox) into making wholesale changes make the series better or fit into a 10 year old model?

Realize, owning and selling LT1 4th gens puts LAW Motorsports in a prime position. Merging will be great for us. But looking at the big picture through Todd's rose colored glasses, makes me wonder ... if no one is racing anywhere, how is that good?

Rsmith350
07-09-2008, 07:10 PM
re-post from national site


No not really, run what you got through 09. This takes affect in 2010. You got a year and a half.

With all due respect sir...that is not my point.

http://www.aicmctexas.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2083

please read this post keeping in mind that as we speak my motor is in the machine shop and would have been finished this next week if I had not called him and told him to STOP EVERYTHING! I now have no direction in which to go drivetrain wise. My plan was to get it running and try to make the rest of the season and use the off time to get it TOTALLY ready for 09'.

I am that 1% that this rules change affects the most.

If you would please tell me what I should do now?
Not only are my plans for track time shot but now I have to wait for details on a rule change before I can proceed ANY further.


I really would appreciate an honest answer from any and all race directors considering my "halfway" point situation.


Side note...we've already had problems with T5's grenading.....what happens when we add more horsies???

AI#97
07-09-2008, 07:34 PM
At least you guys get to debate a rules change....in AI it's "hey, we are making it even MORE expensive to run at the front in AI....and you're welcome!" LOL!!!

jeffburch
07-09-2008, 07:35 PM
Ross, call me asap!
469-831-8693
jb

donovan
07-09-2008, 08:06 PM
This make me want to sell my AI car and build up one of the two FOX Mustang Coupes I have for CMC...

:( not really!

NickV
07-09-2008, 09:06 PM
please read this post keeping in mind that as we speak my motor is in the machine shop and would have been finished this next week if I had not called him and told him to STOP EVERYTHING! I now have no direction in which to go drivetrain wise. My plan was to get it running and try to make the rest of the season and use the off time to get it TOTALLY ready for 09'.

I am that 1% that this rules change affects the most.


I'm right there with ya. I'm working towards going CMC with my 3rd gen and I've got a bone stock 305 waiting to go in. I had plans to drop it in relatively soon, and now, it's just going to sit until I hear what the "plans" are for us. I really need to know what I'm getting in to.

Rob Liebbe
07-10-2008, 09:05 AM
I typically don't read the national CamaroMutsangChallenge.com forum. However, I have been somewhat "vocal" over there recently about the CMC and CMC2 issue. If you don't follow that forum and care about this issue you should start watching it over there, as well as here.

My most recent post.....

************************************************** ***********

It is about supporting those who make up the field. It is about supporting all of them. It is about supporting those who made decisions in the past, those who are making decisions in the present, and those who are making decisions in the future. This can easily be accomplished by leaving the two CMC's separate. Will the older cars start to fade away as time goes by, probably. Will the newer cars continue to increase, probably. But to come along and say that your older car will someday no longer be around so we are going to go ahead and alienate you right now is a mistake. Go ahead, make those of us who have spent our time and money specifically building cars to run in NASA's CMC class mad. How does that make the customer happy? How does that make for a congruent group come race day? How does that positively affect car count?

It is true that I don't like change. I especially don't like change for change's sake. I need a good reason, which I have not yet seen. All I have heard from the directors is that "it will be good for the series", come on have some Kool-Aid. Seems like there are others here who agree and we are waiting for the explanation from up high.

I still don't see the problem with two CMC classes as it allows the support of all involved.

Rob - "If it ain't broke - don't fix it" - Liebbe
CMC #1 - Outrunning the CMC2 cars in Texas

************************************************** ***********

I do, in fact, feel strongly about this issue.

AI#97
07-10-2008, 10:07 AM
Rob, the same shit is happening in AI....they want more challengers, GTO's and Caddy's in the series so they up the ante for those of us that have 10's of thousands of dollars in our builds to upgrade to new stuff so those cars can get homologated into AI...it's a crock and a bunch of backassward thinking. It's also a sign of them struggling to get NEW racers into the series that might have to learn how to build a race car to an existing rules set because they never built one before. So as you have new racers show up with easy new tech, you force out the guys who got you here with their "outdated" equipment and don't want to pay to move forward with older cars not being supported by the aftermarket. I am still looking for a bolt on set of triple adjustable reservoir shocks for a 99+ but have yet to find anything short of "custom" and EXPENSIVE. S197 cars have 4 manufacturers with "kits" to bolt right on. :roll:

I think NASA in general is getting out of focus from Grassroots and thinking we have BIG money like what we see on TV to go out and build new cars every 3 or 4 years...well, we don't. On the flip side, do you see spec miata trying to homologate the new MX-5 in and changing the rules...FUCK NO!! I am starting to think we have the wrong guys in the driver seat on the "steering committee"... They are FAR too out of touch with their core CUSTOMERS.

michaelmosty
07-10-2008, 10:56 AM
I'd rethink your comment on that Matt!! :shock: I bet most of us have no clue how much time and thought they put into stuff like this. Without their help we wouldn't have a place to race our cars.

We are the ones that have it easy by being able to just drive to the track and race!!

Al Fernandez
07-10-2008, 12:06 PM
Come on MFW, the new miata just came out. Do you see SM homologating a miata that's been out for five years? Fuck Yes! S197s have been around for quite a while, never mind LS1 cars. As to having the wrong guys on the steering committee...well thats almost as subjective as asking if Ford is better than Chevy :lol:

Alien
07-10-2008, 12:22 PM
I'm confuse now...

Is the proposed 17" rule for 2010 to go up to a 275?

MFW says -2 allows the 275s right now but...



8.34. Wheels/Tires
8.34.2. Maximum wheel size is 16”x8” for CMC and 17”x9.5” for CMC-2.
8.34.3. Maximum tire size is 255/50R16 for CMC and 255/40R17 for CMC-2. The only tire brand
and model allowed is the Toyo Proxes RA-1.


Sorry, I've not been keeping up wik -2 rules until now.

AI#97
07-10-2008, 12:41 PM
I'll be honest, I still have a VERY sour taste in my mouth regarding the rules changes that were put in place in AI over the last couple of years without notice other than to "improve the series" which has been found to do absolutely NOTHING but alienate the veteran racers in the series. It also appears that our series (AI) is being bumped up because the less modified series of CMC is creeping forward "just to get new cars in the series" and to further distinquish AI and CMC either by looks or lap times.

bottom line, the rules being implemented in BOTH series are driving up the costs instead of keeping them low like the series originally intended, and what got 90% of the folks here. It's more of the "making changes to include the minority at the cost of the majority" issue. Maybe that is just what REAL racing is like...? If so, oh well, I don't have the money to stay at the top.

I can't imagine how PO'd those that are building new cars right now are.

Basic premise, I and apparently several others not just in TX, feel the rules in both series are going in the wrong direction given the fact that event weekend costs are rising so fast, and now we have to go back to the drawing board and rebuild/upgrade our cars, or be left behind.

MM, I still think the rules were perfect as they were...slightly flawed maybe, but they worked great...so leave them alone. 2009 and 2010 are looking pretty BLEAK for grassroots racing as the economy slows to a grind...probably not the best time to start increasing the costs to run in the series! I would rather see all that "hard effort" to be put into MARKETING the series and getting TV time and sponsors interested so we aren't footing the bills...then you can make all the rules changes you want! Sort of learn to walk before you run or you will fall flat on your face because you ran off the end of the bridge you haven't finished building yet! :shock:

I would really like to get out of the AI "rat race" and hop into a CMC car to see what all the hubbub is about! It's looks fun as hell! But I ain't jumpin' in the deep end with my thinner wallet till things get sorted out or returned to what it was! :D

AI#97
07-10-2008, 12:42 PM
I'm confuse now...

Is the proposed 17" rule for 2010 to go up to a 275?

MFW says -2 allows the 275s right now but...



8.34. Wheels/Tires
8.34.2. Maximum wheel size is 16”x8” for CMC and 17”x9.5” for CMC-2.
8.34.3. Maximum tire size is 255/50R16 for CMC and 255/40R17 for CMC-2. The only tire brand
and model allowed is the Toyo Proxes RA-1.


Sorry, I've not been keeping up wik -2 rules until now.

Sorry....2009...I am looking at next year already! :oops: Nature of the business I am in having to plan and think 12 months out! :lol:

Alien
07-10-2008, 12:48 PM
Ok, but you're still right about CMC being a 275 class :evil:

AI#97
07-10-2008, 01:34 PM
Ok, but you're still right about CMC being a 275 class :evil:

well, one positive would be that if Toyo can cut the number of sizes to make to just one, maybe the cost of the tires can go down with 4 or 5 classes running them....just as long as they can supply enough! If that could happen, then I would be ok with it all for sure! It would be much better than $315/tire to run 18's in AI!!! :shock:

Alien
07-10-2008, 01:57 PM
well, one positive would be that if Toyo can cut the number of sizes to make to just one
It's one thing to make a 275/17 optional, it's comletely different to make it mandatory.

Back when there was talk about the 888 not being made in a 16 and the response was, ok, everyone just has to step up to 17s, that ticked the livin crap outta me. That's the point where you go shopping for another spec tire. Glad it didn't turn out that way for the 888.

jeffburch
07-10-2008, 02:03 PM
TV time????????
WTF?
NASA makes money from participants.
One look at Nat's entries will give you some clues.
CMC participation is very low.
Why?
Poor Boys.
They don't care about poor boys.
They want to cater to more cake eaters with money.
They wanna make CMC desirable for SCCA guys who are looking around.
Like Dave Shotz for example who built 2 cars and runs them in 3 or 4 classes per w'end.

jb

BryanL
07-10-2008, 04:05 PM
I certainly understand most people's thoughts on this issue, especially the guys who will have to make changes to make the number. Though I have a few questions about the past.
When CMC was started wasn't it just 3rd gens and 5.0 Mustangs? What did everyone do when they started to allow 4th gens and later model mustangs? How did it affect the series over the long term?
From my vantage point it has brought more cars into the fields and has been good for the series nationwide as a whole?
I can see how having one class is ultimately easier. And why Toyo would want only one class so they don't have to pay out as much.

Thanks for some of the explanations Al. I pretty much agree with the points. I think it could be great for one big class that has the same rules set running for many years to come. I am afraid that the only other option would be to try and run in some Vintage Circuit which would be terrible compared to the racing we have.

I'm with you MM. The directors put in so much more time than the rest of us I think we are lucky to have guys in there that are trying to do their best for the nation as a whole.

JB-agree on the TV. Figured you would take a shot and say how the CMC2 guys are slow. Though if I lose 160 pounds I'm coming for you. I may even have to get a fancy smancy wing like yours.

Bryan CMC Champion 2010 :D

Alien
07-10-2008, 05:20 PM
I think it could be great for one big class that has the same rules set running for many years to come.

Bryan CMC Champion 2010 :D

I just hope the changes stop here. But there is always the inevitable "what happens when a 05 mustang wants to join or the new camaro" Up go the hp levels again and teh fox guys will be even further behind on suspension. There's gonna be a time when you just can't have new cars, cars older than me and car older than Mitch all running in the same class without costing someone big money.

Gary R.
2008 Rookie of the Year

AI#97
07-10-2008, 05:46 PM
Back when there was talk about the 888 not being made in a 16 and the response was, ok, everyone just has to step up to 17s, that ticked the livin crap outta me. That's the point where you go shopping for another spec tire. Glad it didn't turn out that way for the 888.

Yeah, don't know if you saw the Hoosier contingency for AIX and other classes but essentially, you could win a new set of tires every weekend if you had 4 cars entered... Sort of made toyo bucks a little lacking.

It would be nice if they would up the payout in AI with a set of tires going up $450-500 a set though if you were to go to 18's... :?

donovan
07-10-2008, 05:48 PM
S197 = 05 Mustang

DD

Alien
07-10-2008, 05:59 PM
S197 = 05 Mustang

DD
Oops, guess I shoulda scrolled down to the next page of the rules. :oops:

Wonder if they will be more rules change$ to get the fox $uspension to match the S197s...

mitchntx
07-10-2008, 07:08 PM
And why Toyo would want only one class so they don't have to pay out as much.


Bingo ... cash!

Racers, collectively, will have to spend tens of thousands of dollars so that Toyo can save 5 grand a year.

The series? or the racer?

michaelmosty
07-10-2008, 07:37 PM
car older than Mitch all running in the same class without costing someone big money.

Gary R.
2008 Rookie of the Year

Dude that's crazy, we don't race Model T's. :P

mitchntx
07-10-2008, 07:48 PM
car older than Mitch all running in the same class without costing someone big money.

Gary R.
2008 Rookie of the Year

Dude that's crazy, we don't race Model T's. :P

Let's see ... that's 2 more donuts ... :D

Rsmith350
07-10-2008, 08:05 PM
I just wanna race....don't care how I get there anymore.

michaelmosty
07-10-2008, 08:11 PM
car older than Mitch all running in the same class without costing someone big money.

Gary R.
2008 Rookie of the Year

Dude that's crazy, we don't race Model T's. :P

Let's see ... that's 2 more donuts ... :D
I'll tell ya what, I'll let you draft behind my wing at TWS and we'll call it even. :lol:

Rob Liebbe
07-10-2008, 09:26 PM
Who needs wings?

Wings aren't stock.


Rob - Original Intent - Liebbe

AI#97
07-10-2008, 09:44 PM
For those that are interested...got an email today for nationals that Hoosier is offering up $100k in contingencies...at an event sponsored by Toyo. How much money is Toyo offering?!

.sounds like they want our business! LOL!!!

RichardP
07-11-2008, 08:14 AM
For those that are interested...got an email today for nationals that Hoosier is offering up $100k in contingencies...at an event sponsored by Toyo. How much money is Toyo offering?!

.sounds like they want our business! LOL!!!


Did you actually read the Hoosier contingency stuff? They aren't giving out any "money", just product. And not much of it at that. I haven't seen this year's Toyo payout yet but the Hoosier stuff blows compared to last year's Toyo stuff.

I'm not impressed considering Hoosier is a traditional style contingency where the intent is to get you to run their product over a competitor’s. Toyo’s contingency is impressive considering that almost everyone running them is required to by class rules and they are guaranteed to be able to advertise that several National Champions were using their tires.

Richard P.

AI#97
07-11-2008, 08:47 AM
Did you actually read the Hoosier contingency stuff? They aren't giving out any "money", just product. And not much of it at that. I haven't seen this year's Toyo payout yet but the Hoosier stuff blows compared to last year's Toyo stuff.

I'm not impressed considering Hoosier is a traditional style contingency where the intent is to get you to run their product over a competitor’s. Toyo’s contingency is impressive considering that almost everyone running them is required to by class rules and they are guaranteed to be able to advertise that several National Champions were using their tires.

Richard P.

Oh, trust me i know hoosier is a Nazi style organization when it comes to contingencies...I just find it interesting that at a point where AI is complaining about the 18" toyos being MORE expensive than Hoosiers and now the whole CMC to 17" debate...Hoosier slips it in that "Hey, we offer contingencies too!" It shows that Hoosier has their finger on the pulse of the racing community! Their regional program for AIX and similar classes is pretty damn good really! Seems like they were putting their foot in the door to win some hearts and votes if Nasa was shopping for a new tire sponsor...?

I would also disagree about how Toyo advertises...really haven't seen them brag about champions running their tires, they are just looking for volume. Hoosier however has that ad every year after the runoffs with the car picture, driver and class that won on their tires!

Either way, I would love to see more toyo money payouts now that classes are getting larger and the tire costs are going up...

Waco Racer
07-11-2008, 09:41 AM
The Toyo Nationals form and payouts.

http://www.nasaproracing.com/forms/Toyo-NonSpec-TimeTrialsRebate.pdf

jeffburch
07-11-2008, 10:48 AM
The Hoosier program has David Rierson fired up.
I talked with him at length about it.
He was winning 4 tires per event.
His car has picked up just over a full second on Cresson and Hallett.
Granted, they don't last as long.
jb

AI#97
07-11-2008, 12:59 PM
Granted, they don't last as long.
jb

True, but a full new set every weekend just rocks!