2009 Schedule

[Al Fernandez]

You guys should've all seen it in an email from NASA Tx:

Jan. 31 - Feb. 1 MSRH

Mar. 14-15 MSRC

Apr. 18-19 TWS CCW w/ 8 hour Enduro

Jun. 13-14 Hallett

Aug. 1-2 TWS CW

Oct. 3-4 Eagles Canyon

[AllZWay]

I really hate that Aug. date at TWS.... I sure wished they would move that date each year.

The rest I like...and glad to see Hallett on the list again.

[GlennCMC70]

You guys should've all seen it in an email from NASA Tx:
Apr. 18-19 TWS CCW w/ 8 hour Enduro

Todd, Rob...... you ready for another flogging? :twisted:

i've already started the email traffic on defending the Team Moonwell E1 2008 Championship! :D

[jeffburch]

January????????????
WTF?
Someone asleep at the planning again. :roll:

jb

[GlennCMC70]

January????????????
WTF?
Someone asleep at the planning again. :roll:

jb

more that NASA has always had the first weekend of Feb, and i guess that counts as the first weekend. i was kinda shocked too. bad enough our off season is shorter than the gap between some of our races (almost).

[Adam Ginsberg]

Granted, it cuts the "off season" down, but you can't argue that the spring weather in TX turns to summer weather pretty damn fast - having a few races early on in the season isn't such a bad thing.

But then....most of my racing this year has been in CA. ;)

[mitchntx]

Granted, it cuts the "off season" down, but you can't argue that the spring weather in TX turns to summer weather pretty damn fast - having a few races early on in the season isn't such a bad thing.


You weren't there, so you really don't know. :P

[AI#97]

January????????????
WTF?
Someone asleep at the planning again. :roll:

jb

For those of us that require dynos, it screws us into having to dyno again when the weather warms up. Some of us make gobs more HP when it's cold.... :(

[GlennCMC70]

i have a hard time believing that.
its caled a weather station. if your dyno shop doesnt have one, dont use them. if its not helping, stop using them. i have never seen "gobs" more power made in the cool weather on a dyno. the correction factor corrects to a standard weather condition - temp, humidity, even barometer if i recall correctly. that should null out any gains seen in HP due to weather conditions.
also, you could dyno the day after this next race and be legal for 2009.

[Waco Racer]

January????????????
WTF?
Someone asleep at the planning again. :roll:

jb

Actually, MSRH has a big customer (Pro) that usually rents their track for 10 days in January. This customer decided that next year they wanted the days that included our typical weekend. So it was either schedule on top of SCCA or 2 weeks before the March event. Sorry

[GlennCMC70]

January????????????
WTF?
Someone asleep at the planning again. :roll:

jb

Actually, MSRH has a big customer (Pro) that usually rents their track for 10 days in January. This customer decided that next year they wanted the days that included our typical weekend. So it was either schedule on top of SCCA or 2 weeks before the March event. Sorry

another reason why we should just find another track to deal w/. if wehad a particulare weekend, we should keep it. if they gave it way out from under our feet, piss on them.

plus, i've always wondered why our seasons didnt go from Sept to June.

[Rob Liebbe]

[Todd, Rob...... you ready for another flogging? :twisted:

i've already started the email traffic on defending the Team Moonwell E1 2008 Championship! :D


Sounds like fun. I'll be MUCH better prepared this time if it. Or maybe you need another co-driver.

[GlennCMC70]

shoot. you think my team was stacked last year. wait till you see the list for 2009.

[mitchntx]

January????????????
WTF?
Someone asleep at the planning again. :roll:

jb

Actually, MSRH has a big customer (Pro) that usually rents their track for 10 days in January. This customer decided that next year they wanted the days that included our typical weekend. So it was either schedule on top of SCCA or 2 weeks before the March event. Sorry

How about running TWS in it's 1.8 or 1.9 configuration instead of MSR-H?

Every one like TWS. It's a great location, an easy drive for most and they serve a mean charizo ...

[michaelmosty]

I love MSR-H. The management sucks major ASS, but I would hate to see the track off the schedule.
It feels like the traditional track for starting the year. :)

[Fbody383]

I love MSR-H.

Me too.

Of course it's in my backyard.

[AI#97]

i have a hard time believing that.
its caled a weather station. if your dyno shop doesnt have one, dont use them. if its not helping, stop using them. i have never seen "gobs" more power made in the cool weather on a dyno. the correction factor corrects to a standard weather condition - temp, humidity, even barometer if i recall correctly. that should null out any gains seen in HP due to weather conditions.
also, you could dyno the day after this next race and be legal for 2009.

Weather stations on dynos, any dyno, do not account for the timing that gets pulled or added due to intake air temp. Sure it can compensate for humidity and air temp outside essentially getting to a Density altitude, but the parameters in the vehicle computer to pull timing or even a different a/f ratio cannot be taken into account by the air station.

on a cold day, say 35 degrees that is dry, this motor has made as much as 341rwhp. On a hot day of say 105 with 90% humidity, it has made as little as 307hp...same tune. Hence why I have summer and winter tunes for my car with changes in base timing and a/f...as well as adjustments to the fuel octane/mix. It's difficult to manage 400lb weight swings when you can only have 150lbs of ballast. I realize that is just a fact of racing AI since we can go into the computers and change LOTs of stuff.

[ShadowBolt]

[/quote]

plus, i've always wondered why our seasons didnt go from Sept to June.[/quote]


DING DING DING. We have a winner. Why don't we have a shcedule like this?


JJ

[AllZWay]

I love MSR-H. The management sucks major ASS, but I would hate to see the track off the schedule.
It feels like the traditional track for starting the year. :)

I like the track too....but the management sucks so bad, I would like to see them suffer. :evil:

Don't dare scratch anything around there....they way over value it. :evil:

[Fbody383]

Don't dare scratch anything around there....they way over value it. :evil:

See, you just answered your own question; don't leave a credit card at registration.

[Wirtz]

DING DING DING. We have a winner. Why don't we have a shcedule like this?


Maybe cuz every other car club in Texas also does this? Not sure, just guessing....

[silversvo]

I love MSR-H.

Me too.

Of course it's in my backyard.

I love the fine print!! It is really close to me also.

[ledfoot2]

TWS Enduro?

Is there a regular race weekend plus the enduro?

I have never made this event. Any help would be great. I might need to plan for the enduro if I need to run it.

[GlennCMC70]

the enduro is part of a the NASA weekend, but is not a required AI/CMC points race. no AI/CMC points are awarded for it.

[jeffburch]

So, I'm just figuring out that Hallett is on the Rocky Mountain region schedule as the Texas Colorado Showdown.
So I guess the whole bunch is coming and not just AI/CMC.
Am I the last one to get this?

jb

[AI#97]

So, I'm just figuring out that Hallett is on the Rocky Mountain region schedule as the Texas Colorado Showdown.
So I guess the whole bunch is coming and not just AI/CMC.
Am I the last one to get this?

jb

Is the NasaTX website back up with registration and info?

[mitchntx]

So, I'm just figuring out that Hallett is on the Rocky Mountain region schedule as the Texas Colorado Showdown.
So I guess the whole bunch is coming and not just AI/CMC.
Am I the last one to get this?

jb

I talked with Cody Powell for a long while last week and he said Dave put Hallett on the RM schedule instead of a PPIR event.

He said the 944 guys are grumbling, but is convinced that once they attend, they'll love it, just like he did.

Probably not the last one ... just consider it an inverted start.

[jeffburch]

Need to plan party.
Loud live Rock band.
Many kegs.
Oh, and barbecue.
Maybe use some of our money.

jb

[ledfoot2]

the enduro is part of a the NASA weekend, but is not a required AI/CMC points race. no AI/CMC points are awarded for it.

Thanks Glen. I am glad to hear it. The car is getting sorted out, but I don't know that it will be up for an enduro yet.

[mitchntx]

Need to plan party.
Loud live Rock band.
Many kegs.
Oh, and barbecue.
Maybe use some of our money.

jb

I agree. They provided a great feed last year. We should reciprocate.

[GlennCMC70]

Jeff/Mitch.... noted.

[cobra132]

Need to plan party.
Loud live Rock band.
Many kegs.
Oh, and barbecue.
Maybe use some of our money.

jb

I agree. They provided a great feed last year. We should reciprocate.

We need to kick their ass on the track and in the BBQ pit, all in fun of course. FMR

[BryanL]

Need to plan party.
Loud live Rock band.
Many kegs.
Oh, and barbecue.
Maybe use some of our money.

jb

Hmmmm, I'm suggesting one of the kegs be bud light. After I refine the bud light into a 5 gallon bucket Mosty will think its Keystone :lol:

[jeremiahkellam]

That's just nasty

Keystone... Always Smooth

Right Mosty??

[Jeremy Gunter]

Keystone... Always Smooth

Right Mosty??

Organic Whole Milk has more kick than keystone.

[michaelmosty]

That's just nasty

Keystone... Always Smooth

Right Mosty??
You know it, no bitter beer face! :)

[Al Fernandez]

Lets talk number of races and drops. The schedule for '09 is essentially the same as 08 events wise. In 08 we ran 21 races: the first three events (MSR-H, MSR-C, and TWS) had three races (two 20s and one 40) and the last three events had four races. Drops were 20% (rounded down to 4).

Lets have some opinions: do we prefer the same for '09, would we prefer four 20s at all events (24 races, we could round drops up to 5), etc.

[AI#97]

Lets talk number of races and drops. The schedule for '09 is essentially the same as 08 events wise. In 08 we ran 21 races: the first three events (MSR-H, MSR-C, and TWS) had three races (two 20s and one 40) and the last three events had four races. Drops were 20% (rounded down to 4).

Lets have some opinions: do we prefer the same for '09, would we prefer four 20s at all events (24 races, we could round drops up to 5), etc.

Since I will be doing only 2 events this year...4 races per weekend would be nice. To be honest, the 40 minute races tend to get a little boring.

[jeffburch]

20's that end up being 12's are too short.
I like longer races.
Maybe four 30's :)

jb

[ShadowBolt]

Lets talk number of races and drops. The schedule for '09 is essentially the same as 08 events wise. In 08 we ran 21 races: the first three events (MSR-H, MSR-C, and TWS) had three races (two 20s and one 40) and the last three events had four races. Drops were 20% (rounded down to 4).

Lets have some opinions: do we prefer the same for '09, would we prefer four 20s at all events (24 races, we could round drops up to 5), etc.

Since I will be doing only 2 events this year...4 races per weekend would be nice. To be honest, the 40 minute races tend to get a little boring.

Team Jordan votes for four race weekends. I do agree that 12 minute races are BS. If we had 20 minute races (time starting at the drop of the green flag) that would be the $hitz!


JJ

[rpoz27]

I checked with Corn. We'd need 30 minutes scheduled for a 20 minute race from green to checker. Formation lap takes considerable time and there can be 2 minutes or so between race leader and DFL taking checker plus another 2 minutes or so for cool down laps to be completed.

[michaelmosty]

A little off-topic but:
How about we try to have a little quicker "out-lap". It feels like most out laps are at about 1/2 speed when they could easily be at 75%. I understand slowing down to about 40 mph about 3 turns before the straight but it seems like we are "creepin" for quite a long time.
This could maybe get us an extra lap / race.

[mitchntx]

A 20 minute race at Houston or TWS is about 5 laps.

I would prefer to combine our practice and qual with other groups in order to get four 30s ...

[rpoz27]

A 20 minute race at Houston or TWS is about 5 laps.

I would prefer to combine our practice and qual with other groups in order to get four 30s ...

+1

[AI#97]

A 20 minute race at Houston or TWS is about 5 laps.

I would prefer to combine our practice and qual with other groups in order to get four 30s ...

-1

combined qual groups always end up in shitty qual times for AI...especially with Group 7 who tries to race us during Qual and don't understand getting the F out of the way.

[GlennCMC70]

thats the answer guys. combining class's to fewer run groups.

[AllZWay]

I don't care the format for the weekend, but I think 4 drops should be the maximum. One missed weekend.

[Waco Racer]

How about a set number of laps for each race, regardless of the track?

[Rob Liebbe]

How about AI/CMC just rent the tracks ourselves and get all the time/races we want?

We could invite a couple of the other groups in on it as well, like Spec Pinata to reduce everyone's cost.

Then we could have 5 or 6 races per day!!! Oh Yeah!!!!

[mitchntx]

How about a set number of laps for each race, regardless of the track?

You mean something like 15 laps for the Toyo races and 8 for the other races? That would be interesting ...

Mentioned above ...

Why not have a pace car, pull out as the last car in the previous group crosses the finish line. And then follow the last car into the pits and we get the green flag.

I can see that working everywhere but MSR-C.

The down side is giving the corner workers a break.

[GlennCMC70]

i've always wondered why we dont send the next group out on the heals of the previous group. say a 1 minute delay?

[mitchntx]

A 20 minute race at Houston or TWS is about 5 laps.

I would prefer to combine our practice and qual with other groups in order to get four 30s ...

-1

combined qual groups always end up in shitty qual times for AI...especially with Group 7 who tries to race us during Qual and don't understand getting the F out of the way.

The price one pays for being MFW

:lol:



thats the answer guys. combining class's to fewer run groups.

The future will dictate this or we'll see fewer sessions period.

I've talked with several directors from other regions and they are amazed that we get 7 sessions a weekend. I can forsee a time when there just isn't enough time in a given day to support the classes NASA offers.

Something else to consider is the non-Toyo races are combined race groups.

We need to come up with something we can all work with or it will be done for us. Maybe not this year or next, but soon. It's better for us to come up with the changes as opposed to NASA.

This is the kind of brainstorming that yields results. Keep the ideas rolling

[ShadowBolt]

i've always wondered why we dont send the next group out on the heals of the previous group. say a 1 minute delay?

Yes! Like World of Outlaws if you have ever see them. No screw off time between races.


JJ

[jeffburch]

i've always wondered why we dont send the next group out on the heals of the previous group. say a 1 minute delay?
We did that at TWS ccw and it backfired.
We had to take another warmup for the extraction.
jb

[michaelmosty]

i've always wondered why we dont send the next group out on the heals of the previous group. say a 1 minute delay?
We did that at TWS ccw and it backfired.
We had to take another warmup for the extraction.
jb
That is b/c Al paid the tow truck guy to take his sweet-ass time so the race would be shortened so he wouldn't overheat. :P

[GlennCMC70]

i've always wondered why we dont send the next group out on the heals of the previous group. say a 1 minute delay?
We did that at TWS ccw and it backfired.
We had to take another warmup for the extraction.
jb

obviously race control would know this is happening and hold us. butit could be usefull for those times that isnt the case. likey 90% of the time.

[AI#97]

thats the answer guys. combining class's to fewer run groups.

The future will dictate this or we'll see fewer sessions period.

I've talked with several directors from other regions and they are amazed that we get 7 sessions a weekend. I can forsee a time when there just isn't enough time in a given day to support the classes NASA offers.



Mitch, we are honestly NOT even close to some of those regions in car count, let alone HPDE students taking up 4 separate run groups. Unless we keep inviting the GTA group and others, numbers of classes and car counts are dwindling. I would love to see a history of our car counts from 2006, 2007 and 2008 and look for a trend, then compare our car counts both by class and overall with one of the more matured regions and really see where the difference is.

I would only see combining groups to be necessary if we wanted the same number of sessions and went to 30 minute races in lieu of 20's. There are some groups NOW that can't make more than 6 cars and that includes AI... :cry: I think we ALL remember that mistake of letting that group of 5 open wheel VW's run at Houston one year for like 30 minutes....complete waste of track time.

What I find more interesting is that 24 hours of Lemons will have TWO events in Texas this year and a 3rd at No Problem and has people coming in from both coasts and even Chicago... Overall they are having 10 events this year!!! How can that be? :oops:

[mitchntx]

I guess the difference between you and I is that I see the car count going up.

As for Lemons races ... maybe we need to alter the rules to allow mock tank cannons, dinosaur fins and trick air brakes to increase car count.

:roll:

24 hours of Lemons is a novelty.

[Rob Liebbe]

24 hours of Lemons is a novelty.

Maybe so, but there sure were a lot of spectators at the Lemons race.

I was expecting/hoping for a bit of bangin' and bumpin'. I was dissapointed. I'll just have to watch Spec Pinata if I want that - or NASCRAP.

[Todd Covini]

I've talked with several directors from other regions and they are amazed that we get 7 sessions a weekend.

You're welcome. :D

http://www.thecatgallery.com/images/smiling-cat-3.JPG

Good train of thought guys...and Michael's right, if we can pick up the pace on the warm up/cool down laps, it can be coordinated so that we get more flag to flag racing.

-=- Todd

[David Love AI27]

What I find more interesting is that 24 hours of Lemons will have TWO events in Texas this year and a 3rd at No Problem and has people coming in from both coasts and even Chicago... Overall they are having 10 events this year!!! How can that be? :oops:

Look at the cost: $1000/per car with a 5 driver team... with a car count of 75, that equals $75,000... At a NASATX event we are lucky to have 150 cars at @$300 each equals $45,000... for an extra $30,000 per event, as a promoter, I would do 2 per month... CHA CHING

and as far as a team goes $3000 for a car, including all the safty stuff, it is really an inexpensive way to go door to door racing with lots of cars for working traffic, plus it is a heck of a lot of fun...

[rpoz27]

A 20 minute race at Houston or TWS is about 5 laps.

I would prefer to combine our practice and qual with other groups in order to get four 30s ...

-1

combined qual groups always end up in shitty qual times for AI...especially with Group 7 who tries to race us during Qual and don't understand getting the F out of the way.

It goes both ways, Matt. Some of the guys in GTS are running faster than AI and if they grid late they gotta deal with it. Frankly, we have the hp advantage down the straights over most of that group. It should be easier for us to get by 90% of Group 7 than it would be for them to complete a pass on us.

At Hallett on Sunday, Group 7 had 4(?) cars. They thought it was stupid to waste track time on that many cars, so they spoke to SM about running with them. I think Group 7 lapped SM at least twice. Both groups had a good time and there were no problems or complaints. If those two disparate groups can work together....

[ShadowBolt]

and as far as a team goes $3000 for a car, including all the safty stuff, it is really an inexpensive way to go door to door racing with lots of cars for working traffic, plus it is a heck of a lot of fun...


$3000.00 car? You mean $500.00 car.


JJ

[Al Fernandez]

When a group gets sent out is entirely in the hands of race control, and it is normal in other places to release the next group before the previous group is entirely off track. Good feedback for NASA.

Clifton, what is the car count like in the HPDE groups, and why is time trial sepparate from group 4? Just out of curiosity.

Ok...guess we can agree that more track time is good. However, still havent seen a lot of comments on the one thing we can adjust without asking for permission: our preference for 4 20s over 2 20s and one 40.

You know, another thing that might float? Shorten qual sessions for group 3 to ten minutes and add that time to the non-invert race. That would be two 20s and two 25s.

[GlennCMC70]

i think we all seem to agree that if our 20's were really 20's we would be OK w/ that.

[AI#97]

It goes both ways, Matt. Some of the guys in GTS are running faster than AI and if they grid late they gotta deal with it. Frankly, we have the hp advantage down the straights over most of that group. It should be easier for us to get by 90% of Group 7 than it would be for them to complete a pass on us.

At Hallett on Sunday, Group 7 had 4(?) cars. They thought it was stupid to waste track time on that many cars, so they spoke to SM about running with them. I think Group 7 lapped SM at least twice. Both groups had a good time and there were no problems or complaints. If those two disparate groups can work together....

Misty I agree, yes we have probably held up a few of group 7 in the past, however, my point is SEVERAL of those cars should be able to pass us at will, others need to learn to watch their mirrors. 400hp GTA cars that can't pass a CMC car cleanly just hose things up. I realize not everyone is perfect like me... :roll: ....but courtesy in group 7 in the past hasn't been the greatest during qualifying. Just my input on the idea.


Al the shorter qual session sounds like a plan. I usually only do 3 or 4 laps. If I don't have that lap by then, it ain't going to happen anyway.

[michaelmosty]

Al, to answer your initial question:
I like running 40's every once in a while. If I could make the schedule I would do 2 20's and a 40 at Houston. I would do 4 20's at Cresson (since we get about 10 laps / 20 minute race). I would do 2 20's and a 40 at TWS (most likely have the 40 on Sat. b/c of the enduro). Do 4 20's for the rest of the events.
I don't know what that would do for the points but it would be 2 40's for the year. I guess 22 races and still keep 4 drops.

[mitchntx]

You know, another thing that might float? Shorten qual sessions for group 3 to ten minutes and add that time to the non-invert race. That would be two 20s and two 25s.

I have no issue with shortening qual session. And if that happens, then MFWs issue of lapping the field is moot.

Shorten and combine.

My way of thinking is qualifying NOW is extremely imprtant because we only get 5 or 6 laps of racing. So being up front is a distinct advantage. It also breeds bone head moves because opportunities are very limited.

Race results should be played out during a race and not so much on a qual session.

MHO.

So, a 10 minute (of track time) qual session, gridded by class and a staggered start.

That would be a lot easier to pull off because a qual session is green flag as soon as you enter the track. There is no yellow flag warm up lap. Of course, RC would have to ensure that the first group out didn't run into the tail end of the previous group on cool down.

So send AI/AIX, 15 seconds later send GT/ST and 15 seconds later send CMC/CMC2.

Bottom line ... I don't mind 4 races per weekend. I do mind short duration races, though.

[Waco Racer]

We try to over lap the groups on track. However, all too often we have a checkered flag runner, or a tow, or debris on track, or a T&S glitch, or cars that haven't shown up on grid. We are not inclined to leave cars running on grid for longer than we already do.

Lemons cars can run in PT. I am seriously considering having a Lemons class for the Enduro (EL). We can make a class for them in Group 6 (PTL - as in Praise the Lord they finished the race). But, then we may have more issues with time between groups when they break down. Some of the themes, however, will not be allowed. I have the final decision, period.

Entries were good in 2006, down in 2007, and way up in 2008 despite the numbers being down in Group 3.

We have strict requirements for guest groups and have none planned for 2009.

Combining groups is a possibility. That isn't what AI/CMC wanted a few years ago, that is why you have your own group. Also, I would need approval from the group you want to combine with. Please remember that TWS is long and Hallett/MSRC are short.

Car count in HPDE could be better. Some tracks draw better than others. We need to keep 1/2 & 3/4 separated because of the skill level of the drivers and to help evaluate drivers that are looking to get signed off for a racing license. We have been sending out currently licensed drivers to "play" with newbies to see how they react when a little heat is applied. I can't do that when my open track street car people are on track.

Time Trials participation is growing and have done what is necessary to earn their own run group.

Please don't confuse a 20 min. race with a 20 min. session. One thing I have really worked on is getting a full 20 min. session when it is a race. However, cars break down and I have always said that if we need to tow a car the time comes out of that racer's group.

The reason I suggested a lap race instead of a timed race is simple. Pick a number, 10 for this discussion. This makes the length of each race specific to the track, but, changes the length of the race from event to event. i.e. MSRC 17 mile race, TWS 29 mile race. Also, it guarantees track time for the group. The down side is if there is a reason to clear the track after the race. We could shorten the race, leave the car at a safe place until lunch or the end of the day and bring in the driver only, or shorten qualifying.

This is a good discussion even though we've had most of it before. I don't know what 2009 holds. A little flexibility may be required for the first couple of events. The April event will have a very strict schedule and you will only get 3 sprint races, so I don't want to hear any complaining because it is different.

[rpoz27]

400hp GTA cars that can't pass a CMC car cleanly just hose things up.

Al the shorter qual session sounds like a plan. I usually only do 3 or 4 laps. If I don't have that lap by then, it ain't going to happen anyway.

I agree with you on both those points. AI/CMC is not the only group to have had issues with certain GTA drivers. There are 3 of them that I can think of who belong in a race group.

Shorter qual would work for me. I tried to convince Jay to do 3 lap sprint races, so I could start and finish a race before my car breaks. :lol:

[MCain]

... or cars that haven't shown up on grid.

Just popping in with the cake eater opinion. We should never hold grid for late arrivals. Anyone not in position at the 3 minute call needs to be held and released at the back of the pack. After cars are released we should hold late arrivals until the field has taken the checker and is past pit-out.

I know it's mean and it sucks when it happens to you, but cars should roll the second control says "release". That way all the good boys and girls get every second of time they can on track.

Grid has been a clusterfuck in the past at times, but has been getting much better. Now it is our responsibility as drivers to know our grid position and be in it early enough so the field can leave on time.

[AI#97]

That would be a lot easier to pull off because a qual session is green flag as soon as you enter the track. There is no yellow flag warm up lap. Of course, RC would have to ensure that the first group out didn't run into the tail end of the previous group on cool down.

So send AI/AIX, 15 seconds later send GT/ST and 15 seconds later send CMC/CMC2.

Bottom line ... I don't mind 4 races per weekend. I do mind short duration races, though.

Actually, getting cars out of grid during qual takes so long that if we go out HOT under green, we usually catch the tail end of the grid just exiting the pits. I like the idea of gridding qual by class/speed but I also support going out under yellow for the first lap to give time to space the field. I don't know how many times I have been out in the first 3 or 4 cars only to run up on cars that just left the pits as I finish the first lap. This even happened at ECR. TWS not so much but Cresson, Hallett and to some extent Houston all have issues with catching the tail end of the group rolling out.

I think with a yellow for first lap, we could space the field better AND prevent offs that need recoveries because of someone trying to do a "flyer" on cold tires and brakes.

I am sure all this has to be dealt with on the fly by Race Control because of tow in's and late arrivals so it may have to be flexible till we figure out the best way to do it.

[JJordan]

Actually, getting cars out of grid during qual takes so long that if we go out HOT under green, we usually catch the tail end of the grid just exiting the pits. I like the idea of gridding qual by class/speed but I also support going out under yellow for the first lap to give time to space the field. I don't know how many times I have been out in the first 3 or 4 cars only to run up on cars that just left the pits as I finish the first lap. This even happened at ECR. TWS not so much but Cresson, Hallett and to some extent Houston all have issues with catching the tail end of the group rolling out.

I think with a yellow for first lap, we could space the field better AND prevent offs that need recoveries because of someone trying to do a "flyer" on cold tires and brakes.

I am sure all this has to be dealt with on the fly by Race Control because of tow in's and late arrivals so it may have to be flexible till we figure out the best way to do it.

Why not hold the yellow until the last car pulls out of the pits. The cars in the front will be under yellow for about half a lap or so and the ones starting in the back will be green 1 or 2 turns out. The first corner worker you get to without a yellow means green. I think that would keep everything pretty spread out.

-Jay

[ShadowBolt]

The April event will have a very strict schedule and you will only get 3 sprint races, so I don't want to hear any complaining because it is different.


Clifton,

Here I go doing what you ask us not to do (sorry).

Are you saying that weekend we will only get three 20 minute (12 minute) races because of the enduro or 2 20's and a 40? Since I could care less about the enduro if we are only going to get three 20's it may be a weekend to skip. I also assume the price to race will be the same as any other race weekend so we are subsidizing the enduro?

JJ

[BlueFirePony]

I don't know how many times I have been out in the first 3 or 4 cars only to run up on cars that just left the pits as I finish the first lap. This even happened at ECR.
Huh? I was at the back of the pack every race at ECR and I don't remember seeing you on my tail once. And I think I woulda remembered the honor :twisted:

[Waco Racer]

The April event will have a very strict schedule and you will only get 3 sprint races, so I don't want to hear any complaining because it is different.


Clifton,

Here I go doing what you ask us not to do (sorry).

Are you saying that weekend we will only get three 20 minute (12 minute) races because of the enduro or 2 20's and a 40? Since I could care less about the enduro if we are only going to get three 20's it may be a weekend to skip. I also assume the price to race will be the same as any other race weekend so we are subsidizing the enduro?

JJ

Actually, we could have 2-20's and 1-40, but, 1-20 and the 40 would be on the same day. Or, you would have 3 20's on Sunday. That's a lot of wear and tear on some cars that will be racing in the Enduro.

As for the pricing, the rate was the same in 2008 because no one lost track time. In 2009 you will lose 1 session and I don't know if there will be an adjusted rate for that event, I will ask. With the right number of entries, the Enduro takes care of its own costs.

[Waco Racer]

... or cars that haven't shown up on grid.

Just popping in with the cake eater opinion. We should never hold grid for late arrivals. Anyone not in position at the 3 minute call needs to be held and released at the back of the pack. After cars are released we should hold late arrivals until the field has taken the checker and is past pit-out.

I know it's mean and it sucks when it happens to you, but cars should roll the second control says "release". That way all the good boys and girls get every second of time they can on track.

Grid has been a clusterfuck in the past at times, but has been getting much better. Now it is our responsibility as drivers to know our grid position and be in it early enough so the field can leave on time.

I agree. The main problem has been having someone on grid to properly enforce the rule. The other problem is the split start scenario. If we hold a fast car like a GTA stock car until the CMC group is out then there is some added danger to the start. I'll add getting to grid on time to my meeting notes. Then, I'll only have to listen to the complaining about being off schedule.

[Al Fernandez]

IMHO once the field rolls everyone that is late should be kept at grid until the entire field has taken the green and passed turn 1. The late comer can then be allowed out on track to salvage what they can. If they went out while the group was still warming up they wouldnt be allowed to pass anyone anyway (full course yellow) so realistically they wont lose much more time.

If that results in more race time for the whole group, then its acceptable. Drivers will learn to not be late. If the problem is having someone at grid to enforce that, I know we can ensure our group has such a person...but fundamentally isnt it the responsibility of grid to keep cars from going out when they arent supposed to??

[Todd Covini]

... If they went out while the group was still warming up they wouldnt be allowed to pass anyone anyway (full course yellow) ...

Wait....so if I lose a position on the warmup lap I can't "quick like a bunny" make it back up before the green flag and get back in line like in the elementary school cafeteria? :wink:

http://www.heyterra.com/parents/images/surprised_boy.jpg

[Nick]

I like green flag first qual lap. Problem is, not everyone knows that is the rule. Hard to safely pass a car "warming up tires" zig-zaging all over the track.

[David Love AI27]

and as far as a team goes $3000 for a car, including all the safty stuff, it is really an inexpensive way to go door to door racing with lots of cars for working traffic, plus it is a heck of a lot of fun...


$3000.00 car? You mean $500.00 car.


JJ

$500 original purchase and the cost to get it running... seat, cage, brakes and tires are extra... I was guessing on the high side for all the safty stuff... If anyone knows where I can get all the safty stuff added to my car for under $2,500, I would love to know where...

[Jeremy Gunter]

damn computer

[Jeremy Gunter]

... or cars that haven't shown up on grid.
Just popping in with the cake eater opinion. We should never hold grid for late arrivals.

I hate to open my mouth when I have yet to show up on stage. If I get boo'd off I will understand. If I get punted off track I won't! I would completely agree with you on this, but! I have seen situations, as most of you have had, where you can't get into the car and out on grid fast enough. Take Mosty 11, taking rides with certain HPDE students, who I resemble, and he can't get off track and back to his car fast enough to make the 3min mark on grid. Is it fair to have him wait in the back of the pack, when he was fulfilling a duty? or a guy who has been busting his @$$ on his car to fix an electrical issue, buttoning up the car to miss his grid spot with three min remaining?

Should you be at grid with 3 min. I would think so, but there are situations out there that prevent this from happening... it's not fair to everyone else on track, but I would think, from getting to know this group of guys, if someone had pole position, and fixed their car, they would want them on pole if they deserved to be there.
Just 2c from a HPDEer

[David Love AI27]

What if we take out the practice session on Saturday and run a 20-25 min prac/qual... and 15 min qual on Sunday... And give us a full twenty from the end of the warmup lap (not from "green" incase someone jacks up the start) to checker

If you need practice, pay extra and get there a day early or run TDE or TWSMSC for a practice weekend... I think SCCA calls there first run of the day prac/qual...

And I believe Matt was incorrect about 4 groups for DE... I thought they ran DE 1 & 2 together and 3, 4 and TT together with an extra session for TT to give them a clearer track to set their best time

[David Love AI27]

... or cars that haven't shown up on grid.
Just popping in with the cake eater opinion. We should never hold grid for late arrivals.

I hate to open my mouth when I have yet to show up on stage. If I get boo'd off I will understand. If I get punted off track I won't! I would completely agree with you on this, but! I have seen situations, as most of you have had, where you can't get into the car and out on grid fast enough. Take Mosty 11, taking rides with certain HPDE students, who I resemble, and he can't get off track and back to his car fast enough to make the 3min mark on grid. Is it fair to have him wait in the back of the pack, when he was fulfilling a duty? or a guy who has been busting his @$$ on his car to fix an electrical issue, buttoning up the car to miss his grid spot with three min remaining?

Should you be at grid with 3 min. I would think so, but there are situations out there that prevent this from happening... it's not fair to everyone else on track, but I would think, from getting to know this group of guys, if someone had pole position, and fixed their car, they would want them on pole if they deserved to be there.
Just 2c from a HPDEer

Coming from someone who is ALWAYS working on his car... part of the deal is preparation... I am very rarely prepared and I would NEVER expect the rest of you to wait on me... there is usually a couple of hours between sessions which is plenty of time to get your car ready... ANYONE???

I'm not picking on you in any way, but history shows, if someone needs help getting their car to grid, EVERYONE and their MOMMAS work to get the car ready in time...

Now, as far as instructors go, that is another issue...

[AI#97]

And I believe Matt was incorrect about 4 groups for DE... I thought they ran DE 1 & 2 together and 3, 4 and TT together with an extra session for TT to give them a clearer track to set their best time

I was referring to other regions that have car counts to support 4 separate HPDE groups... In our region it used to be 1/2 and 3/4/TT with TT getting a separate session on Sunday for their hot laps. TT is getting big enough now they apparently have their own run group.

As for instructors arriving late to grid... it's as simple as having your student come in one lap early and park your car on grid and have your gear on ready to go. I think several are already doing that! ;)

[David Love AI27]

And I believe Matt was incorrect about 4 groups for DE... I thought they ran DE 1 & 2 together and 3, 4 and TT together with an extra session for TT to give them a clearer track to set their best time

I was referring to other regions that have car counts to support 4 separate HPDE groups... In our region it used to be 1/2 and 3/4/TT with TT getting a separate session on Sunday for their hot laps. TT is getting big enough now they apparently have their own run group.

As for instructors arriving late to grid... it's as simple as having your student come in one lap early and park your car on grid and have your gear on ready to go. I think several are already doing that! ;)

OIC... my bad

[michaelmosty]

What if you are out instructing in an amazing car that you will never get a chance to ride in again, like.....a Camry? You become overwhelmed with the power, handling, and most importantly the incredible braking ability! Your mind is so into this "once in a lifetime experience" that you come into the pits late and miss the grid. Your students eyes are gleaming with pride as he tames the wild beast and sets a new Camry track record!!

Would it be fair to punish the passenger after being a part of such an amazing driving exhibition? Dave Francis wouldn't think so!!!

[David Love AI27]

What if you are out instructing in an amazing car that you will never get a chance to ride in again, like.....a Camry? You become overwhelmed with the power, handling, and most importantly the incredible braking ability! Your mind is so into this "once in a lifetime experience" that you come into the pits late and miss the grid. Your students eyes are gleaming with pride as he tames the wild beast and sets a new Camry track record!!

Would it be fair to punish the passenger after being a part of such an amazing driving exhibition? Dave Francis wouldn't think so!!!

Edited for sarcasm:

What if you are out instructing in a POS car that you pray you will never have to ride in again, like.....a Camry? You become sickened with the lack of power, handling, and most importantly the nonexistent braking ability! Your mind is so into this "get me to hell outta here experience" that you come into the pits late and miss the grid. Your students eyes are flowing with tears as he flogs the timid cat and sets a shameful new Camry track record (that no one in their right mind would attempt to break)!!

[AllZWay]

What if you are out instructing in an amazing car that you will never get a chance to ride in again, like.....a Camry? You become overwhelmed with the power, handling, and most importantly the incredible braking ability! Your mind is so into this "once in a lifetime experience" that you come into the pits late and miss the grid. Your students eyes are gleaming with pride as he tames the wild beast and sets a new Camry track record!!

Would it be fair to punish the passenger after being a part of such an amazing driving exhibition? Dave Francis wouldn't think so!!!

LOL...Great stuff... I too took a ride in the bad ass Camry....just prior to braking the Camry track record. :lol:

[Al Fernandez]

:lol: You guys are a riot. Just remember, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Spock was right on. Race Control should run to the schedule. At the designated time the group gets sent out, regardless of who is missing.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Just popping in with the cake eater opinion. We should never hold grid for late arrivals. Anyone not in position at the 3 minute call needs to be held and released at the back of the pack. After cars are released we should hold late arrivals until the field has taken the checker and is past pit-out.

I know it's mean and it sucks when it happens to you, but cars should roll the second control says "release". That way all the good boys and girls get every second of time they can on track.

Grid has been a clusterfuck in the past at times, but has been getting much better. Now it is our responsibility as drivers to know our grid position and be in it early enough so the field can leave on time.

The CCR's covers the situation of a late grid arrival:

2008.13 CCR's


20.3.1 Pre-Grid (a.k.a. “false grid”)

Pre-Grid should be formed, as scheduled, prior to the race. Any driver failing to make it to Pre-Grid before the first car takes the track for the warm-up lap must start last of all the classes **. Formation of the Pre-Grid will be done in the area specified by the Race Director or Grid Marshal. The competitors are responsible to know their positions on Pre-Grid, and be in position on time.

** The competitor has the option of missing the warm up lap, in which case they may be released from the pit lane with their class, at the discretion of the Re-Entry Marshal, after the green flag has been displayed, or racing resumes. Under no circumstances, except
under direct order from the Race Director, will a late car be allowed to regain their positions.

It's still up to the discretion of the Grid Marshal to decide when to hold a car/cars, and when to allow them to grid in their respective position.

From experience as a Race Director, folks who arrive within a few short minutes of the group being released (2-3 minutes) can really create some difficulty for the grid workers.

[Fbody383]

Would it be fair to punish the passenger after being a part of such an amazing driving exhibition? Dave Francis wouldn't think so!!! It would be if you were wearing that stupid cowboy outfit. Of course you would have been crying like a girl... I mean instructing from the rear passenger seat in that case.


What if you are out instructing in a POS car that you pray you will never have to ride in again, like.....a Camry? You become sickened with the lack of power, handling, and most importantly the nonexistent braking ability! POS? Dude, the scary part is the Camry may have actually been able to outbrake the 69 Camaro. The only time I got in the ABS was when I got a "little" deep during instructor Mostly's ride along. But nothing the Camry couldn't handle.


LOL...Great stuff... I too took a ride in the bad ass Camry....just prior to braking the Camry track record. Respect.

I'm gonna remember all this when you guys want to ride in this. (http://www.cadillac.com/09ctsv/)

[David Love AI27]

What if you are out instructing in a POS car that you pray you will never have to ride in again, like.....a Camry? You become sickened with the lack of power, handling, and most importantly the nonexistent braking ability! POS? Dude, the scary part is the Camry may have actually been able to outbrake the 69 Camaro. The only time I got in the ABS was when I got a "little" deep during instructor Mostly's ride along. But nothing the Camry couldn't handle.


LOL...Great stuff... I too took a ride in the bad ass Camry....just prior to braking the Camry track record. Respect.

I'm gonna remember all this when you guys want to ride in this. (http://www.cadillac.com/09ctsv/)

LOL... I completely understand... people pick on my neon all the time, untill they ride in it... respect is right...

[michaelmosty]

I gave mad props to the Camry when David hit the brakes at the "2" going into T7 at ECR!! I thought we were going off but we actually made it by quite a few inches. :D

[mitchntx]

I gave mad props to the Camry when David hit the brakes at the "2" going into T7 at ECR!! I thought we were going off but we actually made it by quite a few inches. :D

But he was only doing 30 or so ...

[marshall_mosty]

http://www.cadillac.com/09ctsv/

4200lbs :shock:

[AllZWay]

I gave mad props to the Camry when David hit the brakes at the "2" going into T7 at ECR!! I thought we were going off but we actually made it by quite a few inches. :D

But he was only doing 30 or so ...

It still felt really late. :shock:

[Fbody383]

I gave mad props to the Camry when David hit the brakes at the "2" going into T7 at ECR!! I thought we were going off but we actually made it by quite a few inches. :D

But he was only doing 30 or so ...

What I thought was impressive is that the silly thing would print 90-95 on the long back straight... didn't want to go off there, that's for sure.

[AI#97]

What I thought was impressive is that the silly thing would print 90-95 on the long back straight... didn't want to go off there, that's for sure.

Going up hill?!

I was nearing 6000 rpm in 4th before braking to turn left over the hill which is only about a 123-125... 90-95 in a camry...would be incredible considering your entry speed to the straight and lack of power/additional weight!

[Fbody383]

I was nearing 6000 rpm in 4th before braking to turn left over the hill which is only about a 123-125... 90-95 in a camry
Remember, drag is squared with speed so the 30mph is significant. You know, maybe you're right, it was probably only 55-56.


...would be incredible considering your entry speed to the straight and lack of power/additional weight! And the fact that the automatic hunted through the corners. Tell you what, you rent one next time we're there and we'll swap sessions in it. 8)

Just have mercy on the maroon #39 94 Camaro in January, it's probably slower than the Camry and may not be able to handle the AI vortex.

[AI#97]

Just have mercy on the maroon #39 94 Camaro in January, it's probably slower than the Camry and may not be able to handle the AI vortex.

I figure the experience was like doing 100mph in a mid 50's chevy or chrysler....so un-natural and scary it felt like you were doing 250mph! ;)

Don't worry about january...silver car will not be there....maybe not all year. :cry:

[David Love AI27]

Don't worry about january...silver car will not be there....maybe not all year. :cry:

bulldog turned pussycat :shock:

maybe that will light a fire under your @ss.... jk... NOT!!!

[Fbody383]

Don't worry about january...silver car will not be there....maybe not all year. :cry: That ain't no good.

[AI#97]

Don't worry about january...silver car will not be there....maybe not all year. :cry: That ain't no good.

Two things really. Funding is tight and I figured out what I wanted to know at nationals. I wanted to know if I could run with the top 3 or 5 in the country and the answer was yes. Not much else to prove so I am concentrating on having fun visiting other tracks and doing OTHER things with my spare time. Considering it a rebuilding year at this point where the car will get freshened up and a few things upgraded/updated and then I will be back in force in 2010.

[Jeremy Gunter]

FYI the season schedule on the CMC website is showing MSR Houston June 13th and 14th