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mitchntx
01-07-2009, 08:28 PM
Last year it was made abundantly clear to me that till ALL CMC2 cars qualified faster than the fastest CMC car, ALL of CMC2 was going to grid behind CMC.

Now that a CMC official has moved to CMC2, will that rule be changed as well?

:roll:

My bout with head cold and sinus infection is much better.

8)

AI#97
01-07-2009, 08:54 PM
Last year it was made abundantly clear to me that till ALL CMC2 cars qualified faster than the fastest CMC car, ALL of CMC2 was going to grid behind CMC.

Now that a CMC official has moved to CMC2, will that rule be changed as well?

:roll:

My bout with head cold and sinus infection is much better.

8)

Don't you mean CMC2 will grid in front of CMC? That's the way I heard it atleast....

Rob Liebbe
01-07-2009, 09:58 PM
Put CMC2 in front of CMC - I like passing them!!!!! :twisted:

Alien
01-07-2009, 10:03 PM
I've wondered why the order isn't switched on the inverted races anyways? I think we did that one time last year. Could that be an option?

GlennCMC70
01-07-2009, 10:30 PM
Last year it was made abundantly clear to me that till ALL CMC2 cars qualified faster than the fastest CMC car, ALL of CMC2 was going to grid behind CMC.

Now that a CMC official has moved to CMC2, will that rule be changed as well?

:roll:

My bout with head cold and sinus infection is much better.

8)

once again you have miss quoted what was told to you.
i said untill the CMC-2 POLE is faster than the CMC POLE. we grid the classes by pole qual time.

GlennCMC70
01-07-2009, 10:33 PM
also, the inverts are always w/in class only. we do not flip the entire field. that was how it was done a few years ago w/ AI in the back of CMC. it was always a total cluster and we had lots of contact due to that.

Alien
01-07-2009, 10:43 PM
Not inverting AI and CMC is one thing, and completely understandable.

But (and I'm guessing it's just gonna be a wait and see thing), I think half the CMC field will be faster than half the CMC2 field and vice versa. Either way, you're gonna end up wik half of one field pushing thru half of the other.

Just a thought

GlennCMC70
01-07-2009, 10:55 PM
and thats no different than w/ AI. back in the day (2005-6) we had much larger AI fields and it was not uncommon for 3-4 CMC cars to finish in front of 3-4 AI cars. the key here is consistancy. once we started gridding by class then by qual time (once it was just by qual only - we had mixed grids) we always put the class's on the grid by the order of the pole sitters for each class.
by shear numbers alone (more HP, tire, brake) CMC-2 should be posting faster lap times than CMC. but thats not reality. just like the reality of our AIX cars here. they are the slowest cars by lap time in the field. they should be the fastest from a rules allowance standpoint, but their not.

me and Mitch got into this debate at TWS. his understanding at that time was when a CMC-2 car turns a faster lap than a CMC car, CMC-2 would grid in front of CMC. i told him it was by POLE time only. we allowed it at TWS on that Sunday for the invert, but that was an exception. its not the way we normally do it, and its never been dictated that one class must grid in front of another.

so i'm not sure how much more clear i can be on how we set grid. who here doesnt get it yet? can i explain it another way? where did i confuse you?

GlennCMC70
01-07-2009, 10:57 PM
and my money is stull on half the CMC field being faster than all the CMC-2 field. just like last year.

i hope i'm wrong.

mitchntx
01-08-2009, 04:42 AM
I guess the point is either a few CMC cars or a few CMC2 cars will have to fight both in class and out of class traffic, depending upon how the grid is set.

My question is, why is it the CMC2 field is ear-marked for that? I can see it easier when there was just me or, to a point, even 3 of us.

But from rumor and discussion, there very well could be times this season there will be more 2 cars fielded than legacy cars. And with the two Jeffs, even though they are carrying 200 more quarter pounders with cheese, I doubt anyone in either field can touch their qual times.

There is a huge gap between CMC2 and CMC qual times. But the actual race times are a lot closer.

jeffburch
01-08-2009, 07:19 AM
Just grid us by qual time.
I don't care if your cmc3.
I'm gonna race you're ass.
I'm more concerned IF we actually have a full season.
jb

David Love AI27
01-08-2009, 08:25 AM
just like the reality of our AIX cars here. they are the slowest cars by lap time in the field. they should be the fastest from a rules allowance standpoint, but their not.



he, he, he... :lol:


AIX Champion, Slowest car in the whole friggin' field... Started from the rear finished at the rear :? ... still AIX Champ... :shock: :shock: :shock:

David Love AI27
01-08-2009, 08:27 AM
I'm more concerned IF we actually have a full season.
jb

Something we should know??? are you refering to the economy, overall??

GlennCMC70
01-08-2009, 08:33 AM
My question is, why is it the CMC2 field is ear-marked for that? I can see it easier when there was just me or, to a point, even 3 of us.

But from rumor and discussion, there very well could be times this season there will be more 2 cars fielded than legacy cars. And with the two Jeffs, even though they are carrying 200 more quarter pounders with cheese, I doubt anyone in either field can touch their qual times.

There is a huge gap between CMC2 and CMC qual times. But the actual race times are a lot closer.

why is it just the CMC-2 cars on your radar? no other factor plays a role other than the pole sitters qual time. remember David Armstrong? his lone AIX car was grid up front many times. pole time, pole time, pole time.

mitchntx
01-08-2009, 08:43 AM
The CMC and CMC2 was used as an example.

So the answer to the original question was no, regardless of field size.

David Love AI27
01-08-2009, 08:51 AM
The CMC and CMC2 was used as an example.

So the answer to the original question was no, regardless of field size.

So your thought would be largest field grids up front??? There is some merit there... If I had a car like Armstrong's ands was the only car there I would rather be at the rear for something to do... but this is AI/CMC TEXAS and EVERYONE has their on opinion... I don't envy our directors... tough crowd... Maybe the "fastest" groups in front for contincency races and largest groups for inverts and other...

AllZWay
01-08-2009, 09:06 AM
Just grid us by qual time.
I don't care if your cmc3.
I'm gonna race you're ass.
I'm more concerned IF we actually have a full season.
jb

I am sort of with Jeff... just line me up on the grid and I'll race something or someone. :P

Rob Liebbe
01-08-2009, 09:06 AM
I say let AI grid up front then put all of CMC and CMC2 together as one group. Race 1 and 3 position based on qual times and Race 2 and 4 based on finish position within AI and then the entire CMC1/2 group. This way, the CMC2 guys will have extra incentive to qualify well, the 1 vs 2 comparison will be better, and we will have a whole lot of fun.

Done, make it so, Director types.

"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?" - "Who's with me?" - Brother Bluto

mitchntx
01-08-2009, 09:10 AM
The CMC and CMC2 was used as an example.

So the answer to the original question was no, regardless of field size.

So your thought would be largest field grids up front??? There is some merit there... If I had a car like Armstrong's ands was the only car there I would rather be at the rear for something to do... but this is AI/CMC TEXAS and EVERYONE has their on opinion... I don't envy our directors... tough crowd... Maybe the "fastest" groups in front for contincency races and largest groups for inverts and other...

Not necessarily.

Looking back through the Mylaps data, there was typically seconds difference in qual times between CMC and CMC2. And much of the time, a good qual lap is based upon who gets suited and to grid first. How is that indicative of what happens during a race?

Race lap times were a different story, though. While still posting faster times, the CMC fastest lap times were many times within tenths of a second. In Houston, my "miracle lap" was a 1/2 second faster.

My race is just as important to me as the next guys in to him. When race times are close enough to have so much interclass racing, it leads to issues on and off the track.

I'm just asking why the grid can't be alternated.

Jeff/James/Rob ...

I think arguements have merit, but the opposite side of that puts us back to where we were a few years ago where folks were complaining about out of class racing messing up in class racing.

Like I said earlier ... If CMC2 grids behind CMC, then CMC2 has to deal with both classes. If CMC grids behind CMC2, then CMC will have to deal with both classes. It's an extra burden for sure. But I think it's time that burden is spred around a bit.

One of the points about changing it mid year last year was just that ... it being mid-year and not being fair across the board. Fair enough and I dropped it.

Well it's a new year and I think it's worth discussing.

David Love AI27
01-08-2009, 09:21 AM
ok.. directors post two or three choices... we all vote... majority rules... and if Matt doesn't like it he can quit like he did before... LOL..

Gotta run... I'll check back with you guys this afternoon with a report on the "high banks of TWS"...

ShadowBolt
01-08-2009, 09:23 AM
I agree with Mitch on this one. We should share the starting first. I doubt either Jeff is worried about getting by me. They never had a issue in a invert race.


JJ

AllZWay
01-08-2009, 10:18 AM
Jeff/James/Rob ...

I think arguements have merit, but the opposite side of that puts us back to where we were a few years ago where folks were complaining about out of class racing messing up in class racing.



I can definitely see that possibility...especially closer to the end of the year when points become so crucial.

But I don't really see a perfect solution....there will always be faster CMC cars racing slower CMC2 cars and vice versa depending on the way everyone is gridded.

I mostly don't care either way.

AI#97
01-08-2009, 10:38 AM
Sounds like the directors need to get their story straight. I VIVIDLY recall Al saying at the banquet that CMC2 grids in front of CMC, PERIOD.

I however, say grid by qual time...that's the way it ends up finishing anyway.

And DL, was that shot? Use more smiley's.

I will start at the back just like I did in 07' as the lone AIX car and STILL be in first by lap 3. Gave me something to do.

And I would agree with Burch....if we can't get car counts to the track, NASATX may have no choice but to cancel events if they run too far in the red. Maybe we should figure out how to increase car counts before we worry about gridding? Anyone got a Series Sponsor in their back pocket? Tobacco and Alchohol companies are going to prosper in this economy so maybe Miller Lite or Coors Light could sponsor the season? A good friend of mine runs a bar softball league and got $25k cash to be title sponsor of 2ea. 9 week series'. Just food for thought.

michaelmosty
01-08-2009, 10:59 AM
How in the freakin world did we get on the topic of canceling events???

How about we grid by qual time. Invert the field based upon finishing position (irregardless of AI, CMC, or CMC2). Race every single person on track the same way, all out!
If you have out of class racing, so be it. If you don't like it, get by them.
We do this to "race" people don't we? :)

GlennCMC70
01-08-2009, 11:05 AM
so if we share the burden and place it upon CMC and CMC-2 at differnt times, then should we not also move AI around too?
its no different than what you are asking for.

for now, i'll only consider 2 possibilitys.
total field grid by qual time. i dont like this cause this possibly places a car or more between me and the car i'm racing for points. its no fun racing a 10th place AI car all the while i'm the 2nd place CMC car trying to catch the 1st place CMC car.

grid by class w/ class order dictated by pole sitter for each class. i like this best. one way of fixing the issue of working thru upper class cars who are slower is by adding more space between your class and the one in front of you. if that space gets too big, how about a 2nd or 3rd or 4th green?

as for qual being set by who get dressed first? thats a bunch of total BS.

how about we start setting a grid for qual? do it by practice times?

right now, i'm not convinced there is an issue. i see no reason to change it.

michaelmosty
01-08-2009, 11:36 AM
I see no issue at all w/ qual. If you think it is beneficial to get there early, then get there early.

Adam Ginsberg
01-08-2009, 12:09 PM
FWIW, we've done multiple greens for each class with success (in CA). AI/AIX gets a rolling green, CMC/CMC2 gets a standing green, FFR gets a rolling green.

Hell, in CA, CMC/CMC2 runs a qual race during the Sunday qual session - AI/AIX and FFR is performing regular qualifying, and we're out there racing!

Since the TX run group is typically AI/AIX and CMC/CMC2 with no other classes, why not try separate green flags?

AI/AIX gets a flag, CMC gets a flag, CMC2 gets a flag. Put a ~10-12 count between flags, with the cars spaced appropriately. Timing is everything when doing these, and people need to be paying very close attention, but it can be done.

jeffburch
01-08-2009, 12:34 PM
Does the info b'cast play any roll in these?
jb

AI#97
01-08-2009, 12:49 PM
Does the info b'cast play any roll in these?
jb

when was the last time we had an actual safety broadcast?

Al Fernandez
01-08-2009, 04:04 PM
Nope, info broadcast has nothing to do with it. Cali has been doing three flag starts since...2004 or thereabouts, (even two standing, one flying or two flying one standing). Ditto for some folks racing and some folks qualifying during the same on session Sunday.


I VIVIDLY recall Al saying at the banquet that CMC2 grids in front of CMC, PERIOD.

I think the vivid might've come from your drugs, because nobody else witnessed that Matt.

Guys, we've had multiple discussions during drivers meetings about out of class racing. It leads to short fuses and out of class contact. It is NOT something I want to see. Yes, we're all there to race, but we're all there to race people in equivalent technical rules packages. Otherwise lets immediately throw all rules discussions out the window.

If there is an issue, then the pain should be shared. If there is not an issue, then CMC drivers shouldnt care if the starting order is changed. Either way, keeping the status quo would appear to be an inferior option.

I can think of several strict ways of doing this, but would be happier leaving it more flexible. This group likes things by the book though...so my favorite two options:

1) Split evenly; Saturday CMC1 in front of CMC2 and Sunday the other way around

2) Average fastest and slowest car in CMC1 and 2. Fastest average starts ahead

GlennCMC70
01-08-2009, 04:08 PM
and Al, i would like to use the same method of all AI and CMC.

and the first person to agree they like the average method, can average the lap times themselves.

Al Fernandez
01-08-2009, 04:14 PM
But we already use a different process for AI...AI is up front and AIX is last, behind CMC1 and 2.

Fbody383
01-08-2009, 04:20 PM
and the first person to agree they like the average method, can average the lap times themselves.

I understood there would be no math!?

I say put the rookies without dyno stickers up front... rolling chicanes, baby.

mitchntx
01-08-2009, 04:24 PM
1) Split evenly; Saturday CMC1 in front of CMC2 and Sunday the other way around


I've already stated that I think this is the most fair between the 2 classes.

Glenn and I had a long talk about this earlier and I do see what he is attempting to do ... and prevent.

But I think he sees more of a problem with the above scenario than I do.

Bottom line, all I can do is request, bring tech and wait for it to get shot down. :P

AI#97
01-08-2009, 04:31 PM
Practically all other race series where they have multiple classes on track at once grid by Qual time, regardless of class. why are we trying to reinvent the wheel?


Why does TX always have to be different?! :lol:

mitchntx
01-08-2009, 04:37 PM
Oh guys ... let me take this one...


Practically all other race series where they have multiple classes on track at once grid by Qual time, regardless of class. why are we trying to reinvent the wheel?


Why does TX always have to be different?! :lol:

To use a term you coined earlier today, I vividly recall you stuffing a nose of a Mustang in a trash can at MSR-C, complaining about slow-ass drivers.

So, it was decided shortly after that we would begin gridding by class first then qual time second.

When CMC2 was spawned, I was the only racer and I didn't want to cause any problems with in class racing and asked to grid at the back.

Alien
01-08-2009, 04:46 PM
If there is an issue, then the pain should be shared. If there is not an issue, then CMC drivers shouldnt care if the starting order is changed. Either way, keeping the status quo would appear to be an inferior option.

I can think of several strict ways of doing this, but would be happier leaving it more flexible. This group likes things by the book though...so my favorite two options:

1) Split evenly; Saturday CMC1 in front of CMC2 and Sunday the other way around
I agree with option 1 if it becomes an issue. This option seems to be the simplest with the minimal change. No change to AI/AIX starting, no change to multiple flags. No change in the class of the guy you're starting immediatly next to/in front of/ behind.

AI#97
01-08-2009, 05:23 PM
Oh guys ... let me take this one...


Practically all other race series where they have multiple classes on track at once grid by Qual time, regardless of class. why are we trying to reinvent the wheel?


Why does TX always have to be different?! :lol:

To use a term you coined earlier today, I vividly recall you stuffing a nose of a Mustang in a trash can at MSR-C, complaining about slow-ass drivers.

So, it was decided shortly after that we would begin gridding by class first then qual time second.

When CMC2 was spawned, I was the only racer and I didn't want to cause any problems with in class racing and asked to grid at the back.

Somethings change Mitch, somethings don't. We all bitch about little stuff, then grow up and realize it was stupid. This discussion will fall into the same catagory in time.

mitchntx
01-08-2009, 06:07 PM
Somethings change Mitch, somethings don't. We all bitch about little stuff, then grow up and realize it was stupid. This discussion will fall into the same catagory in time.

Totally agree, Matt. I think as a whole, we've all matured as drivers. This all took place when EVERYONE was new.

AI#97
01-08-2009, 07:05 PM
Somethings change Mitch, somethings don't. We all bitch about little stuff, then grow up and realize it was stupid. This discussion will fall into the same catagory in time.

Totally agree, Matt. I think as a whole, we've all matured as drivers. This all took place when EVERYONE was new.

Yeah, but we all still bitch too much...probably because our wallets are too directly involved. I would be for a more "take it or leave it" mentality so things are set in stone and don't change. It Seems everytime something changes, everyone has sand in their shorts and bitch about it. I could care less about how the grid works now days...I am more interested in having more folks to race with in AI and how to pay my own racing costs... :cry:

mitchntx
01-08-2009, 09:39 PM
Somethings change Mitch, somethings don't. We all bitch about little stuff, then grow up and realize it was stupid. This discussion will fall into the same catagory in time.

Totally agree, Matt. I think as a whole, we've all matured as drivers. This all took place when EVERYONE was new.

Yeah, but we all still bitch too much...probably because our wallets are too directly involved. I would be for a more "take it or leave it" mentality so things are set in stone and don't change. It Seems everytime something changes, everyone has sand in their shorts and bitch about it. I could care less about how the grid works now days...I am more interested in having more folks to race with in AI and how to pay my own racing costs... :cry:

There's nothing wrong with change, unless it's just for the sake of change. And the converse is true ... keeping things the same because we've always done it that way is just as silly.

If everyone has the same obstacles facing them regardless of the way grid is set, there should be no issue alternating. If it's the same either way, there should be no consequences to changing.

And without at least trying it, how do will we ever knows if it makes for even better racing.

jeffburch
01-08-2009, 09:47 PM
Mitch,
what is it exactly you want from this?
CMC2 grids in front all the time?
Fine, Let's do it.
I've read ALL 3 pages and I can't figure your POV.
I'm sure I glossed over and missed.
thx,
jb

mitchntx
01-08-2009, 10:03 PM
I'm sure I glossed over and missed.


May be ...




1) Split evenly; Saturday CMC1 in front of CMC2 and Sunday the other way around


I've already stated that I think this is the most fair between the 2 classes.

Wirtz
01-08-2009, 10:03 PM
Put the weak nut CMC cars at the back. Fine with me.

Time to go stock up on manties. Gonna be alot of cars with their unmentionables flapping in the breeze.... :twisted:

David Love AI27
01-08-2009, 10:51 PM
I think as a whole, we've all matured as drivers.

Speak for your self...

Fbody383
01-09-2009, 02:06 PM
Put the weak nut CMC cars at the back.

Settle down, big guy... step away from the carnuba...