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View Full Version : CBP - Cheatin' Bastard Practice



mitchntx
03-07-2009, 05:31 PM
Nothing to see here ...

ShadowBolt
03-07-2009, 06:59 PM
Not fair! Don't we have a rule about CBP on a track within a few weeks of a race? We should. Even in bowling you can't practice on the pair you will be competing on the day of league play. I live over two hours from the nearest track we run on. I say again....not fair! Wait a minute, I guess that's why we call it CBP. I told ya I was gonna be trying to stay up with the Mitchster.


JJ

David Love AI27
03-07-2009, 08:05 PM
Not fair! Don't we have a rule about CBP on a track within a few weeks of a race? We should. Even in bowling you can't practice on the pair you will be competing on the day of league play. I live over two hours from the nearest track we run on. I say again....not fair! Wait a minute, I guess that's why we call it CBP. I told ya I was gonna be trying to stay up with the Mitchster.


JJ

Dude if you show up in a couple of weeks, you're screwed... better be there in 6 days :shock:

ShadowBolt
03-07-2009, 08:14 PM
Not fair! Don't we have a rule about CBP on a track within a few weeks of a race? We should. Even in bowling you can't practice on the pair you will be competing on the day of league play. I live over two hours from the nearest track we run on. I say again....not fair! Wait a minute, I guess that's why we call it CBP. I told ya I was gonna be trying to stay up with the Mitchster.


JJ

Dude if you show up in a couple of weeks, you're screwed... better be there in 6 days :shock:

I will be there and my car has "legs"".


JJ

Rob Liebbe
03-07-2009, 09:27 PM
He can practice all he wants, but the CMC1 boys are gonna run him over.

AI#97
03-08-2009, 09:40 AM
Mitch, did you guys try bumping the pressures on the R888's as recommended by Toyo? Apparently the "Low" pressures most people I know use aren't supposed to work... :roll:

GlennCMC70
03-08-2009, 10:40 AM
Mitch, did you guys try bumping the pressures on the R888's as recommended by Toyo? Apparently the "Low" pressures most people I know use aren't supposed to work... :roll:

no Matt. i know Mitch said we dialed them in on Steve's car, but it was a lie. :roll:

mitchntx
03-08-2009, 11:00 AM
Yes, we tried bumping the pressures.

mitchntx
03-08-2009, 11:02 AM
Nor here

AI#97
03-08-2009, 11:08 AM
Yes, we tried bumping the pressures.

PM me the result por favor. I am compiling all my data I have located and wanted to know if you are seeing the same trend...are you using nitrogen?

Glenn, go take your meds.

GlennCMC70
03-08-2009, 11:46 AM
Yes, we tried bumping the pressures.

PM me the result por favor. I am compiling all my data I have located and wanted to know if you are seeing the same trend...are you using nitrogen?

Glenn, go take your meds.

you first.

mitchntx
03-08-2009, 01:28 PM
Wait a minute ... We spend $400 in fees, 30 gallons of gas, a whole Saturday, and a 1/2 set of tires and you just want me to give that data to you?

How about I wash your car too ...

I quit being Santa Claus when my daughters turned 10.

ShadowBolt
03-08-2009, 02:17 PM
Don't we have a testing ban? I know I read about one somewhere.


JJ

mitchntx
03-08-2009, 02:22 PM
move along, please

AI#97
03-08-2009, 05:02 PM
Wait a minute ... We spend $400 in fees, 30 gallons of gas, a whole Saturday, and a 1/2 set of tires and you just want me to give that data to you?

How about I wash your car too ...

I quit being Santa Claus when my daughters turned 10.

Jeez Mitch....you were on here giving out most of your data anyway filling us in on your test day....figured you would just let the CAT out of the bag anyway. If you didn't want us giving you shit about it...should have not posted anything.

And yes, come on over and wash my car but please leave your bikini at home and bring overalls...I don't want ANY chance of seeing ass crack.

mitchntx
03-08-2009, 05:27 PM
common knowledge

AI#97
03-08-2009, 06:48 PM
Everything else was common knowledge if you dig around a bit.

Trust me I have been....and it didn't cost me a dime to figure out where I am going to start with them. Plenty of people willing to give up the goods for free all over the net. I was just interested in YOUR tests as I don't have a lot of data points on CMC/2 cars running the 275. Most of the data I have found has been in MUCH lighter cars...I am guessing yours is close to 3250? I was just digging for more info on them getting slower after 10 or so laps with the added weight along with if you were starting at what appears to be the new norm of about 5 to 7lbs higher than the RA1...

mitchntx
03-08-2009, 07:05 PM
<yawn>

AI#97
03-08-2009, 08:43 PM
Oh, and leave your car out by the curb. I'll try and get there to wash it before Friday.

Actually, you can leave it dirty...if you could haul it to a dyno and get it dyno'd for me that would be great! ;)

I am actually just happy it is track worthy as of 2pm today! Been a TON of little projects done on it over the last 3 months...most of which was party of neglect for the last 3.5 years. It is certainly a leaner and meaner racing machine now....only to have to re-figure it all out to deal with the R888's! :?

I should be pretty close on the new tire setup....but that is purely on paper. It will probably be like dogshit in actual application on track at TWS.

Rob Liebbe
03-08-2009, 10:01 PM
CAT FIGHT!!!!!!!!!

ShadowBolt
03-09-2009, 08:49 AM
I just found out through the grapevine that Mitch and Steve were not the only CMC2 cars getting in a little CBP at MSRC. No matter, if the track stays dry I plan to motor by all three of them. If it's wet I will be the one holding down last place. First you gotta be smooth to be fast in the rain (and I'm not) and second all I have to run this weekend are thin (read blad) RA1's. But if it stays dry I pitty the Fools!


JJ

mitchntx
03-09-2009, 03:51 PM
In car video from the #17 Mustang as he races the #8 Camaro and the #9 Firebird.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEAGCIqgB0k

That's the Firebird passing on the right.

Wirtz
03-09-2009, 06:17 PM
I got to go learn some stuff this weekend as well thanks to the guys at Harris Hill Road.

http://vimeo.com/3544417

I confirmed that my car, in fact, is still a Camaro. And it was fun....

michaelmosty
03-09-2009, 07:04 PM
Very cool, that is the first time I have seen video of the track.
The elevation changes look pretty sweet! 8)

AI#97
03-09-2009, 08:35 PM
Very cool, that is the first time I have seen video of the track.
The elevation changes look pretty sweet! 8)

Looks like we need a private race weekend down there for AI/CMC! :lol:

Wirtz
03-10-2009, 03:52 PM
In car video from the #17 Mustang as he races the #8 Camaro and the #9 Firebird.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEAGCIqgB0k

That's the Firebird passing on the right.

Yes, you can tell the Firebird by studying the bodywork closely. This reference will help;
http://jalopnik.com/5166238/the-pontiac-trans-am-shares-its-parts-with-a

:)

jeffburch
03-10-2009, 04:45 PM
Hehe.
I noticed that too.
I rode in that damn thing a couple off years ago at a superbowl we covered.
jb

donovan
03-11-2009, 12:41 AM
Very cool, that is the first time I have seen video of the track.
The elevation changes look pretty sweet! 8)

Looks like we need a private race weekend down there for AI/CMC! :lol:

Working on a Test and Tune the Monday before TWS!

More to come later, its already on their calandar!!!

Wirtz
03-11-2009, 02:01 AM
Sweet DD! I know there was some conversation to that effect, but didn't think something might come together so quick. Keep us up to date when you can.

To everyone else, it was a fun track, the drop off was cool and remined me of Laguna Seca a bit.

mitchntx
03-11-2009, 06:56 AM
In car video from the #17 Mustang as he races the #8 Camaro and the #9 Firebird.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEAGCIqgB0k

That's the Firebird passing on the right.

Yes, you can tell the Firebird by studying the bodywork closely. This reference will help;
http://jalopnik.com/5166238/the-pontiac-trans-am-shares-its-parts-with-a

:)

LOL

oz98cobra
03-16-2009, 12:42 PM
On the subject of 888s ... we had not had the chance to test on them before racing on them this past weekend, so we can't offer any "back to back" testing data like Mitch's .. only more seat of the pants feedback, so here it is ...

Mason liked them on a wet track - very predictable.

In the dry, at first I hated them - they felt like street tires compared to shaved RA1s - probably because they ARE street tires with their big angled tread blocks - I drive a lot of cars on a lot of different tires and it took some time for me to adjust and learn to use these things effectively. By the end of the weekend, I hate them less ... pretty good for street tires ;)

It does seem like they need higher starting pressures than RA1s .. a few PSI, although we need to do some real testing before we can say this for sure. Likewise as to the question of whether they are slower than RA1s - gut feeling says yes - perhaps 1/2 a second a lap around MSRC in an AI car.

They are clearly a "stiffer" tire, which would account for many of the CMC/CMC2 guys finding they need to soften spring rates some to make them work - we probably don't need to alter our spring rates for AI, but we did need to make shock adjustments to compensate.

Despite being stiffer, they got up to working pressure faster than RA1s - I'm guessing this is due to the tread blocks walking around and creating more heat. They also clearly fall away significantly when they get too hot.

So we have a tire that gets hot quickly, works fairly well for a couple laps, then starts to fall away, but we can't run lower pressures to make them stay on the pace longer because although they are stiffer, lower pressures build heat faster due to sidewall movement and that compounds the heat buildup from the tread movement .. in other words, a street tire!

Having said all that, they remain drivable when hot, just slower - at least for a hard driven 20 minute race - who knows how they will hold up in a 40 minute race? Oh and it does look like they need to be heat cycled - the first dry session we drove on these stickered tires where we got any heat in them on Saturday, they really went away fast once they got up to temp - they were fine on Sunday.

I found that these tires do not like to be over driven .. start exceeding the slip angle, and they suck - they obviously get too hot - this is not what I would consider a desirable trait for CMC racing - you guys who are used to hanging it all out lap after lap on RA1s are gonna have to tidy it up, or you will be slower and chew through these 888s like they are going out of fashion.

Once we are all using them, comparing them to RA1s is a mute point - at least for the rest of this season - we have to learn to adapt and live with them. My feeling is that these "street tires" will add a dynamic that an AI team like Cooke/Melkowits with our discipline and testing oportunites can learn to adapt to and live with, but overall for NASA style club racing in general, this is a HUGE step in the wrong direction, and given that we think they are going to last half as long and they cost significantly more, doubling our tire bills in the current economic climate is not going to be acceptable or achievable to many drivers/teams.

Rob Liebbe
03-16-2009, 02:14 PM
Nice write up. I do see a lot of discussion coming about the 888 in the near future.

Al Fernandez
03-16-2009, 02:21 PM
Excellent info Darron. I agree with you. I bumped up my 888s pressure more again this weekend and found they did not fall off as much over the course of a session as they were doing last time at Houston.

David Love AI27
03-16-2009, 02:29 PM
Excellent info Darron. I agree with you. I bumped up my 888s pressure more again this weekend and found they did not fall off as much over the course of a session as they were doing last time at Houston.

R4, car 5, Fast lap #11 of 11 @ 1:25.667

Al Fernandez
03-16-2009, 02:36 PM
SHHHHH!! I'm embarrassed enough that I'm still slower than the real men in CMC without you broadcasting it all over the place!! :lol:

Rob Liebbe
03-16-2009, 02:53 PM
SHHHHH!! I'm embarrassed enough that I'm still slower than the real men in CMC without you broadcasting it all over the place!! :lol:

The real men in CMC were on RA1's.

evarner
03-16-2009, 03:06 PM
SHHHHH!! I'm embarrassed enough that I'm still slower than the real men in CMC without you broadcasting it all over the place!! :lol:

The real men in CMC were on RA1's.

Should be fun next event when everyone is on 888's. :D For those that haven't wondered into that territory yet, it's going to be fun watching the expressions when see the time sheets and are 1-2sec slower 8) 8)

<I haz tissue ready to pass out>

Time to run AIX on Hoosiers. :lol:

Wirtz
03-16-2009, 03:22 PM
So on the subject of R888s, I heard speculation on two different dates for when R888s are required, and neither of those matched what I thought was the rule (that being RA1s = ok for the first two events). I tried a quick search on NASA Forums and on the main NASA page and didn't see what I was looking for. So, can some link the offical ruling?

Edit: this is what I find still on the NASA site.
http://www.nasaproracing.com/news/2008/nasa-announces-toyo-tire-r888.html

GlennCMC70
03-16-2009, 03:41 PM
if you want the regional answer, call Al, or me on my cell.
214-869-9603

jeremiahkellam
03-16-2009, 03:50 PM
Why don't you just post a regional answer??

jeremiahkellam
03-16-2009, 03:52 PM
Excellent info Darron. I agree with you. I bumped up my 888s pressure more again this weekend and found they did not fall off as much over the course of a session as they were doing last time at Houston.

R4, car 5, Fast lap #11 of 11 @ 1:25.667

Take it easy on Al, I was holding him and JP up the whole race. They probably never got those 888s up to temp...

AI#97
03-16-2009, 03:53 PM
if you want the regional answer, call Al, or me on my cell.
214-869-9603

the regional answer should be exactly the same as this answer...

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=25080

and JWL's recent post on the national AI forum asking which regions are going past 2 events and that it was a no no.

Personally, cool, I got RA1's to last till 2011. Gives me another chance at some more lap records this year. I am sure those that don't will not be happy about it.

mitchntx
03-16-2009, 03:59 PM
JWL and Toyo are smokin' crack if they think racers can afford to toss perfectly good race tires.

And don't tell me to use them for TnT or DE weekends.

TnTing on them yields no data worth using and the only reason I do a DE weekend is for TnTing.

Arguements about it "being fair" are equal on both sides of the fence

evarner
03-16-2009, 04:59 PM
Yeah, I'm too tired to look up the answer.

The reason I ask is because I as asked these questions in a general setting. Any help/guidance would be terrific.

1. Will be allowed to run RA-1's and still be able to obtain class points and Toyo bucks after this past weekend?

2. Will there be a stipulation enforced that we cannot purchase new RA-1's and run those (Toyo still makes 'em!!)

3. Will lap records count if it's not done on Triple 8's?

Thx!!

ShadowBolt
03-16-2009, 05:01 PM
JWL and Toyo are smokin' crack if they think racers can afford to toss perfectly good race tires.

And don't tell me to use them for TnT or DE weekends.

TnTing on them yields no data worth using and the only reason I do a DE weekend is for TnTing.

Arguements about it "being fair" are equal on both sides of the fence


I don't have any more RA1's but I hate the thought of spending more on tires than I do now. Two sets of RA1's per year was working fine for me. I sure don't want to have to go to three or four sets a year with a more expensive tire. And even though I love ya Mitch I don't want to race you on 888's with you on RA1's. I think we should protest and all run RA1's the rest of the season. So I guess I should purchase another set or two of RA1's and say I need to use up what I have? What do we (or even NASA) get out of Toyo for us running their POS 888? Is it worth it if all our tire bills double?

JJ

jeffburch
03-16-2009, 05:02 PM
Why couldn't everyone manage their tires down to what was needed to finish out '08 like I did?

jb

jeremiahkellam
03-16-2009, 05:13 PM
After running both RA1s and 888s this past weekend, like many others, I think the 888s are inferior.

If the answer is final, fine. It will all be equal, as the class is designed to be. We will just have to learn to get the most out of a lesser tire. I'm sure a few racers hated the RA1s when they were first released.

I would much rather run the RA1s so much as I can still score regional points. The Toyo bucks probably won't mean a lot to me at this point.

GlennCMC70
03-16-2009, 05:19 PM
Why don't you just post a regional answer??

the only way you will know what i'm thinking is to talk w/ me.

those are the rules, sorry.

mitchntx
03-16-2009, 05:55 PM
And even though I love ya Mitch I don't want to race you on 888's with you on RA1's.
JJ

Understand ... and you very well might not.

mitchntx
03-16-2009, 05:56 PM
Why couldn't everyone manage their tires down to what was needed to finish out '08 like I did?

jb

Cause most of us have a tire budget, not a Toyo Buck budget.

ShadowBolt
03-16-2009, 07:11 PM
And even though I love ya Mitch I don't want to race you on 888's with you on RA1's.
JJ

Understand ... and you very well might not.


Just sell me a set of your RA1's and we can race each other every week.


JJ

Al Fernandez
03-16-2009, 08:04 PM
Alright guys, take it easy. Its far too soon after a race weekend to be having drama :wink:

All expectations half way through last year was that the 888 would be superior in lap times, so drivers would naturally want to switch. Toyo's own data bears that out. Unfortunately we've been seeing data saying the opposite. Now, maybe part of that is the cars in question are still primarily set up based on a long time of running RA1s (I'm talking roll rates, damping, etc, not tire pressure) so perhaps that difference in lap time will go away as people massage their setup. Regardless, the situation is people arent eager to change.

NASA's answer is the official answer from Toyo: no RA1s if you want points or Toyo Bucks after the 2nd weekend. I did talk to JWL this afternoon and asked him to discuss w/Toyo a short extension for Texas due to rain this past weekend. He said he'll discuss w/Toyo later this week. Now, my interpretation: dont bank on that. Toyo is a long time partner of NASA, and I'm sure both sides are keen to do what's best.

Given the immediate apparent disparity in lap times I dont think its realistic to think there is any alternative to enforcing 888s for points and bucks chasers unless JWL tells us otherwise. If the situation were reversed, with 888s clearly being immediately faster, I think the situation might be different.

Al Fernandez
03-16-2009, 08:11 PM
Oh...about tire wear...those of you running 888s, how do they look? I have the first two weekends on my 275/17s. The first weekend I ran them far too low in air pressure, no telling what that did to wear. At this point I have one that looks pretty...tired, and three that look like they might make it through the next even.

If I make it through next event then I'll have gone from 1.5 sets per year to two sets per year. If not call it 2.5 sets per year. Given I didnt pay for shaving by running the 888s at full depth, that makes my annual tire budget grow by somewhere between $300 to $700 a year.

Others??

ShadowBolt
03-16-2009, 08:56 PM
Alright guys, take it easy. Its far too soon after a race weekend to be having drama :wink:



If your talking about me (drama) then you misread my post. I was just fooling with Mitch. I don't care what tire anyone runs as long as I get to go to the races and compete with everyone and enjoy the fellowship of a race weekend. I don't want to see any good tires (RA1's) thrown away.


JJ

jeffburch
03-16-2009, 09:08 PM
Why couldn't everyone manage their tires down to what was needed to finish out '08 like I did?

jb

Cause most of us have a tire budget, not a Toyo Buck budget.

That's a cheap shot buddy.
I sold all my decent 1's in mid '08 (some of which you did the enduro on).
Used my T bucks to buy 8's for '09.
I had to buy many thin-to-win 1's to finish out the season.
One of them you put on my car (thx agn) at ECR.
I planned ahead just like some have with "the deuce" (but with a MUCH easier platform).
I'm cool tho, Al, chill.


jb

michaelmosty
03-16-2009, 09:34 PM
Al, regarding the 888 tire wear, Jeremy has 2 1/2 events worth of wear on his 888's (1 practice day and the 2 events this year).
The tread depth looks pretty good but the tires are worn a good amount on the outer edges. I think he is seeing the same issues many have noticed and were running the tires at too low a pressure.

I am totally speculating but I could see full treads lasting 4 events and 4/32nd shaves lasting maybe 3 events. Not near the life of an RA1 but alright, I guess.
As a comparison, my current set of RA1's I got at 3/32's and I have 3 1/2 events on them and they could probablly do 1 more.

jeffburch
03-16-2009, 09:37 PM
Oh...about tire wear...those of you running 888s, how do they look? I have the first two weekends on my 275/17s. The first weekend I ran them far too low in air pressure, no telling what that did to wear. At this point I have one that looks pretty...tired, and three that look like they might make it through the next even.

If I make it through next event then I'll have gone from 1.5 sets per year to two sets per year. If not call it 2.5 sets per year. Given I didnt pay for shaving by running the 888s at full depth, that makes my annual tire budget grow by somewhere between $300 to $700 a year.

Others??

To me, they wear as good if not better than the 1's.
But mine are shaved.
Other than that, my lips are sealed. Get your own.
See you procrastinators at the next event :wink:
jb

Todd Covini
03-16-2009, 09:38 PM
Why don't you just post a regional answer??

the only way you will know what i'm thinking is to talk w/ me.

those are the rules, sorry.

What's the "Underhanded Deal Hotline" # again? :lol: :twisted:
I thought we shut down that phone line.

mitchntx
03-16-2009, 10:16 PM
Why couldn't everyone manage their tires down to what was needed to finish out '08 like I did?

jb

Cause most of us have a tire budget, not a Toyo Buck budget.

That's a cheap shot buddy.
I sold all my decent 1's in mid '08 (some of which you did the enduro on).
Used my T bucks to buy 8's for '09.
I had to buy many thin-to-win 1's to finish out the season.
One of them you put on my car (thx agn) at ECR.
I planned ahead just like some have with "the deuce" (but with a MUCH easier platform).
I'm cool tho, Al, chill.


jb

Well it pisses me off that the rules seem to change at the drop of a hat and they change to where ever the wind blows.

It wasn't intended to be a cheap shot, but this God-like Toyo "contingency" is good for 15% of the racers. The rest are forced to buy an over-priced, under-achieving POS tire.

This time last year, 09 ... ALL OF 09 ... was supposed to be a transition year. So I made a prudent, fiscal decision to run 09 ... ALL OF 09 ... on scuffed and used RA1s.

3 reasons ...

A cheap tire to race on ...
A cheap transition to 17s ...
And let someone else do the R&D on pressures.

The propoganda then was the 888s would be a superior tire, but it didn't matter. We're just racing for a piece of pewter, right? Right?

Then the rule changed ... and changed again and now it's changed again, again.

JB, you just got caught in the cross-fire ... nothing personal.

Expect a bonfire of perfctly good RA1s in the paddock at TWS ...

mitchntx
03-16-2009, 10:30 PM
Why don't you just post a regional answer??

the only way you will know what i'm thinking is to talk w/ me.

those are the rules, sorry.

What's the "Underhanded Deal Hotline" # again? :lol: :twisted:
I thought we shut down that phone line.

If Tony can do it ... just leading by example. Good corporate puppet ... sit, boy!

jeffburch
03-16-2009, 10:33 PM
MW,
I'm (we're) good.
Hehe, I was hoping they were a better tire.
Oh, well, I do think they will wear better, but their price prolly negates that.
jb

evarner
03-17-2009, 07:29 AM
Not sure if these questions have been answered.

1. Will be allowed to run RA-1's and still be able to obtain class points and Toyo bucks after this past weekend?

2. Will there be a stipulation enforced that we cannot purchase new RA-1's and run those (Toyo still makes 'em!!)

3. Will lap records count if it's not done on Triple 8's?

4. Will a racer be qualified for the national event even though they didn't complete 5 races on Triple 8's?

This needs to be posted in the forum and not have to call a hot-line. That leaves way too much to the imagination of what goes on. IMHO of course. Again, these were questions brought up while standing around having a good time BS'ing with the guys. No drama, just some questions regarding regional/national stuff.

IMHO (2nd) - when a new tire is introduced, it should be at least as good as the one being retired. A racer shouldn't have to spend more money buying new parts (softer setup) in order to compete on a tire that should have been tested in each region for all classes prior to acceptance.

Spec Miata - SCCA winning teams go through 2 sets of 888's in a weekend to have a chance of a podium finish. This is double or triple from the RA-1's.

Listen - not wanting to stir the pot, but having run on the 8's for two weekends (tried different pressures) and seeing how they drop off after a few laps compared to the 1's, if there's a chance to run the 1's, I'm all for running them instead of the 8's for sure.

Not pointing fingers or blaming anyone. These issues need to be brought up and I'm sure our wonderful and talented directors will have it all under control in short order.

Al Fernandez
03-17-2009, 08:11 AM
Eric, the rule as published by NASA is and has been since some time last year: no RA1s past the 2nd event unless you are fun running. As mentioned, I have asked for an extension due to our rain, and we'll see where that goes.

The NASA Championship participation requirements stipulate a driver must earn points in five official races in order to be elligible. Fun runners dont earn points, nor do they set lap records.

mitchntx
03-17-2009, 08:12 AM
As a protest, I am peeling off my current Toyo tire stickers and replacing them upside down.

And as I stated before, I'm just not funded to buy a set of R888s at this point in time. When the rule said all of 09 as a transition year, I spent my tire budget on scuffed RA1s hoping to gather Toyo buck crumbs to fund a set of tires by year's end.

I am NOT and CANNOT go into debt to go racing. That is just stoopid in today's economy.

GlennCMC70
03-17-2009, 08:14 AM
your 5 races do not have to all be in CMC though. you could run PT, AIX or STU, or whatever.

Rob Liebbe
03-17-2009, 08:18 AM
As a protest, I am peeling off my current Toyo tire stickers and replacing them upside down.

And as I stated before, I'm just not funded to buy a set of R888s at this point in time. When the rule said all of 09 as a transition year, I spent my tire budget on scuffed RA1s hoping to gather Toyo buck crumbs to fund a set of tires by year's end.

I am NOT and CANNOT go into debt to go racing. That is just stoopid in today's economy.

Maybe they should say "Noyo Tires".

Is anyone talking to Toyo? Coming from the tire industry, and spending a LOT of time driving and evaluating tires, there can be changes made (some simple, some difficult) to a tire to alter its performance. I would love to hear what Toyo is saying about this. Anybody got a good contact number at Toyo?

mitchntx
03-17-2009, 08:21 AM
One thing I think many have glossed over is the differnt characteristics the R888 has when compared to the RA1s.

Yes ... if you just do a tire swap, using RA1 tried and true suspension setup, you will be a second slower.

That does not mean that the 888 is an inferior tire. It means that you will have to adjust your suspension and maybe your driving style to achieve RA1-like results.

Go back and read Darron's post carefully. There is good, insightful information in that post.

evarner
03-17-2009, 08:32 AM
I appreciate all the thoughts, guidance and insights in this thread.

Todd Covini
03-17-2009, 08:35 AM
Series Directors here (and other series) are aware in this region (and other regions) and I'm sure there are discussions between Toyo & the national office.

Waco Racer
03-17-2009, 08:38 AM
The Toyo tire issue is on my list of things to discuss with Jerry K. and John L. this week.

GlennCMC70
03-17-2009, 08:40 AM
I appreciate all the thoughts, guidance and insights in this thread.

Eric, please understand what we say here is seen by drivers / officials from other regoins and up to a National level. no matter what we do, the official way is all we can post here.
please contact your series direcotrs on this issue.


AL, we need to spend some time on the phone this week.

evarner
03-17-2009, 08:49 AM
http://www.tek-racing.net/done.jpg

8) 8)

AllZWay
03-17-2009, 08:53 AM
I am out of RA1's, so basically I am for the latest rule of weekend 2, however I understand the wanting of running RA1's for those that have them....but it sucks that they are faster than the 888's.

I ran the 888's all weekend, except for qual on day 2.

I like them on the wet track on Saturday R1....they were decent in R2.

I hated them R3 very badly....but modified pressures for R4 and they were pretty darn good the whole race.

I am not sure of lap times for the day, but seat of pants says they are considerably slower than RA1's.

As for wear... MSRC isn't too hard on tires, but they look perfect after all weekend.

marshall_mosty
03-17-2009, 01:44 PM
Is anyone talking to Toyo? Coming from the tire industry, and spending a LOT of time driving and evaluating tires, there can be changes made (some simple, some difficult) to a tire to alter its performance. I would love to hear what Toyo is saying about this. Anybody got a good contact number at Toyo?

From:http://www.aicmctexas.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2328&highlight=


Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:33 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just got off the phone with Candice at Toyo (Cali office) and she confirmed the following:

1. Max Tire Temp: 250F
2. No published "ideal" hot temp.
3. Tire Pressure: High 30's to Low 40's
4. Tire does NOT need to be heat cycled prior to use
5. Compound is the same down to the cords. This is different to the RA1 which had a softer outer rubber and hard carcass. According to Toyo, they should be consistant down to the cords.

If anyone wants to talk to Toyo about the R888, call (800) 678-3250 10a-7p CST and dial exention 490 (Customer Relations). There are two tire engineers there that are familiar with the R888 tires. However I did not speak to them directly.

marshall_mosty
03-17-2009, 01:46 PM
I ran a set of R888's during a test session back in January and liked them. However, going from 4-year old 1's might have been the reason, but I just started my pressures about 6 lbs higher to come off track at 36-38 all the way around instead of 31-32 for the 1's.