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View Full Version : Green flags at MSR-C



Al Fernandez
03-19-2009, 10:38 AM
In the media thread there are some comments around not being able to see the green for R3, our standing start race on Sunday.

Personally, I had no issues. I saw Misty walking towards the fence, saw her hold her hand up, and saw her start to waive the flat (at which point I went).

Others? Just looking to learn as much as we can for next time.

ShadowBolt
03-19-2009, 10:51 AM
Al,
I was not in the car for R3 but R4 was the one where Jay said green, green, green and no one left so I sat there and finally I heard some motors come to life. I bet most could see Misty.


JJ

GlennCMC70
03-19-2009, 10:54 AM
i didnt like it. i found myself trying to figure out which person was Misty. i was worried about looking around too much as i was afraid i would look away from who i was suposed to be looking at. it was only when i saw someone bend down a pick up something green that i focused on them.
something needs to be done for this track. we have tried many differnt things over the last few years and some work ok, and other not at all. this was a "not at all" for me.

Fbody383
03-19-2009, 10:55 AM
I could see a person from waaaaayyyyy in the back, but it was certainly less than ideal and I was track right. Not sure the guy on my left could see anything other than cars moving.

Al Fernandez
03-19-2009, 10:57 AM
Jerry...Misty didnt do the flag for R4; that was a rolling start on the back straight. :?:

michaelmosty
03-19-2009, 10:59 AM
I could see Misty just fine but I can understand if people had difficulty.

ShadowBolt
03-19-2009, 11:13 AM
Jerry...Misty didnt do the flag for R4; that was a rolling start on the back straight. :?:

Yes I know. I just wanted to make sure you did not think my other post had anything to do with Misty that it was from R4. I could not see a flag in R4 at all.


JJ

Rob Liebbe
03-19-2009, 11:17 AM
I saw her at all times, but I was on the front row of CMC. It would have been more difficult from mid pack on back.

The back straight green flag was and always has been difficult to see at Cresson as well.

I agree with Glenn that this needs to be improved. Don't those two stations have a roof or cover over them? Could a ladder be placed so the flagger could stand on the roof/platform?

Wirtz
03-19-2009, 11:18 AM
I could see the flag, but I didn't know what was happening. Someone told me someone came around before the session saying what the plan was. I think that was during the time I was on track in Gary's car.

I kept scanning since I wasn't sure where the flag would be, but to be honest, I was thinking it was going to come from the flagging station, not the fence line. Since Misty put her hand up, I saw that and was able to change up just fine.

I do think it would be good if we documented the start proceedure for standing starts. I'm not sure if there is something in the CCR already on this. But since we are the only show in TX using it, seems like we could collect what we would like to see and publish it so NASA has it as a reference.

One of these days when I have spare time (!!) I'm going to make up our own LED F1 style start light bar that we can bring out to the different track....

evarner
03-19-2009, 12:21 PM
One of these days when I have spare time (!!) I'm going to make up our own LED F1 style start light bar that we can bring out to the different track....

Oh yeah!! I'm all for this and wouldn't take much to make a portable self-contained one.

http://www.electronicsweekly.com/blogs/gadget-freak/2008/08/peters-f1-gantry-start-lights-race-into-position.html

mitchntx
03-19-2009, 12:36 PM
Personally, I had no issues. I saw Misty walking towards the fence, saw her hold her hand up, and saw her start to waive the flat (at which point I went).


Well then, obviously, there was no issue. :roll:

When on a fact finding mission, you shouldn't taint the potential responses with "I had no problem".

This immediately makes a responder reluctant to be open and honest because the little voice in their head makes them second guess whether there was actually a problem or I made a mistake.

I couldn't see her because she doesn't hardly cast a shadow and I believe the corner worker station was in my line of site.

So, I waited till others began moving before I went. I didn't want to get a black flag.

jeremiahkellam
03-19-2009, 12:46 PM
One of these days when I have spare time (!!) I'm going to make up our own LED F1 style start light bar that we can bring out to the different track....

Oh yeah!! I'm all for this and wouldn't take much to make a portable self-contained one.

http://www.electronicsweekly.com/blogs/gadget-freak/2008/08/peters-f1-gantry-start-lights-race-into-position.html

That would be cool. Do it SWC style, light comes on, light goes off, you go...

Have one at front of field, one mid pack wired to one switch that could be in from inside corner station or flag stand.

I'm sure Misty did a great job. I scanned the fence line but could not pick her out (there were a lot of people). Instead I just watched in front for cars to move.

Wirtz
03-19-2009, 12:55 PM
I'd put money in to help fund a start light system if someone could scope what was needed. It doesn't seem like it would be that hard to make. I agree on the process - lights on = gets ready, lights off = go go go.

JJordan
03-19-2009, 01:00 PM
As you can see from my video, I could not see the flag. I scanned what little view of the fence I had (I was on the left) and didn't see anything, so I just waited for everyone else to go.

-Jay

AllZWay
03-19-2009, 01:03 PM
For the standing start... At first I had a difficult time locating Misty, but once I did, I had no problem.

For the rolling starts... I never once got to a point I could see the flag before the field was already starting.

Alien
03-19-2009, 01:04 PM
I'll echo JP for both the standing and rolling starts

After watching a handful of people walking around near the corner station, I was fortunate to be able to pick out Misty from my vantage point, left side no less. Easy to understand how it was difficult for some to pick out a single person in a crowd.


Others? Just looking to learn as much as we can for next time.
Asides from her location, the whole 'raise one arm, wait (keeping that arm up), then bring up the waving flag' works very well for me.

michaelmosty
03-19-2009, 01:28 PM
Asides from her location, the whole 'raise one arm, wait (keeping that arm up), then bring up the waving flag' works very well for me.
Agreed, I think this system works the best by far!!

Alien
03-19-2009, 01:34 PM
I agree on the process - lights on = gets ready, lights off = go go go.

Real simple. Always start right behind me. My brake lights are wired to all 4 lights. Lights on = get ready, lights off = go go go! Just sucks that you will have to give up you spot on pole, but I'm sure the others won't complain.

GlennCMC70
03-19-2009, 01:55 PM
i can build this if i have schematic for the brain box.

evarner
03-19-2009, 02:18 PM
Project:
http://picprojects.org.uk/projects/f1lights/index.htm#PCB_Artwork_

Schematic:
http://picprojects.org/projects/f1lights/gsc_schematic.PDF

Connection overlay:
http://picprojects.org/projects/f1lights/rscv2con.jpg

Parts list at the bottom of the Project page.

GlennCMC70
03-19-2009, 03:19 PM
let me see what parts i can find and i'll build one for AI/CMC Texas. we will not need it for TWS as we dont do standing starts there (i want to change that too - standing starts on the hot pit lane?). so Hallet shouldbe our target.

anyone know how tall it should be?

Waco Racer
03-19-2009, 03:30 PM
You should have the main pole be in sections so it can be adjusted from track to track. At Hallett you can hang it off of the start stand.

GlennCMC70
03-19-2009, 03:33 PM
that was my thought too.

jeremiahkellam
03-19-2009, 04:02 PM
I've got a traffic light (it's big) we can use. Just wire a switch into a 110v line. Flip it on then flip it off. Fab a stand up for it. Pretty simple.

F1 lights would be cool but I say keep it simple and cheap

GlennCMC70
03-19-2009, 04:10 PM
those electronics are cheap. the LED's may cost some. the aluminum for the stand may cost some. the fab work is free.
if someone who has access to stuff to program the chip (i dont) and can build the electrical stuff (i can build it), i can geton the lights and stand right after TWS.

GlennCMC70
03-19-2009, 04:12 PM
this is another great example of our group taking ownership of a problem and resolving it. lets once again set the bar for the rest of the country to try and raise themselves to.
this group is truely a class act.

jeremiahkellam
03-19-2009, 04:25 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANQQbYcI4zw

Sorry I shot it sideways and didn't take time to rotate, but you get the idea.

Todd Covini
03-19-2009, 04:27 PM
Most everyone at the Rolex race was using $30 extending paint roller poles from Home Depot. The lights could be self contained on battery power and hoisted up when needed or afixed to something.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3291/2542938856_0ebc105a28.jpg?v=0

ShadowBolt
03-19-2009, 04:32 PM
I can build the aluminum box for free. I assume that is what you were saying about the fabrication being free. I can also get it black anodized or powdercoated to reduce glare.


JJ

ShadowBolt
03-19-2009, 04:34 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANQQbYcI4zw

Sorry I shot it sideways and didn't take time to rotate, but you get the idea.


Cool but I assume the casting is heavy?


JJ

GlennCMC70
03-19-2009, 04:39 PM
Jerry, it would be nice if you could, but i wasnt thinking that. i was only speaking for myself.

jeremiahkellam
03-19-2009, 04:40 PM
not really, the whole light weighs about 20 lbs (the case is plastic). The LED light is removable and is about 12" in diameter and about 1" thick. It might weigh 2 lbs. If you could fab an aluminum box (maybe 14"x14"x3") you could just mount the LED in the enclosure. The shade around the light helps visibility a lot.

110v input, 2 wires, very easy

Alien
03-19-2009, 04:41 PM
Not to rain on the parade, but doesn't the main issue of actually being able to see the flag/lights remain?

TWS has rolling, MSR-H, EC and Hallet have flagstands. Does anyone have issues at these tracks about not being able to see the starter? If you do, then I think you'll also have trouble seeing the lights.
The lights would only help the situation at MSR-C in the assumption that they would be 20' in the air a few feet off the track.

Cresson is the only track, rolling or standing, that I see has an issue wik starts.

Don't mind me, just thinking out loud.

GlennCMC70
03-19-2009, 04:42 PM
i was hoping to have more options than a single light would provide.
something like, all off = go, or a count down, the more random, the more fun.

GlennCMC70
03-19-2009, 04:44 PM
sorry. all good ideas. lets keep kicking this around.

mitchntx
03-19-2009, 04:52 PM
Not to rain on the parade, but doesn't the main issue of actually being able to see the flag/lights remain?

TWS has rolling, MSR-H, EC and Hallet have flagstands. Does anyone have issues at these tracks about not being able to see the starter? If you do, then I think you'll also have trouble seeing the lights.
The lights would only help the situation at MSR-C in the assumption that they would be 20' in the air a few feet off the track.

Cresson is the only track, rolling or standing, that I see has an issue wik starts.

Don't mind me, just thinking out loud.

You know ... I tend to agree that we're trying to fix something that isn't really all that broke.

Last year, when the flagman stood in the bed of the truck and waved the green flag, I thought it was just fine.

jeremiahkellam
03-19-2009, 04:57 PM
I guess I should stop before I shock myself, I'm fine with the flag man, or woman. If Misty were to hold something up first to say "here I am" and then proceed, that would be fine with me.

AI#97
03-19-2009, 05:37 PM
I like the idea of an LED starter board with WC style light setup. That being said, Misty did a great job....all BY HERSELF. I think that was the problem. Not only did she have to set the first car behind the timing loop, she RAN all the way back to pick up the flag. One person should not have to do all this. This problem may compound when Mike and Clifton start racing in our group as there will be even fewer folks in Race control.

Mitch is right about it not being "that" broken. The flagger in the bed of a truck works great, especially if the truck starts moving as the flag moves. More movement to focus on to get a good start. Otherwise, qual better to get the advantage of seeing better....that's racing boys.

Starts on the short shoot into BB do need to be dealt with. cars on the left can't see anything. Putting the flagger on an 8' ladder would work just fine.

Wirtz
03-19-2009, 05:54 PM
I agree a flag can work just fine, I just thought this would be something cool and would help set us apart a bit.

Benefits from a LED light system would be they can be raised up high, hopefully helping to fix the visability issue. Every large diamater LED arrays weight about nothing. It could also be placed closer to the racing line if needed and the starter can remain back at a safe distance with a wired switch. Tracks we a starter stand are even easier, hang the lights from the side of the stand and go from there. No trucks to get stuck in the mud at Cresson for example. Did I mention it would be cool?

If we stick with a flagger, that's fine, it goes back to what I said earlier. Our start proceedure should be documented so there are no questions race to race on what we are doing.

AI#97
03-19-2009, 06:52 PM
I forgot to add...for the LED board, call Boudy and find out if he has an old LED light bar or a partial light bar from a squad car that could be taken apart and reconfigured. Would make this easy and already VERY visible. 12V configuration and ready for some sort of switch. Could be powered by an old "lantern" battery to keep it portable.

David Love AI27
03-19-2009, 07:46 PM
Where do we need it??? Only at Cresson every where else there is a flag stand!!! we have a year to worry about it... I can stick a rotating strobe on the end of some conduit straped to a 2 wheel dolly with a car battery on the bottom (I have 3 or 4 batteries) wire up a toggle and we are done... I'll have it done by TWS... If we can do a standing at MSR houston we can do one between 11 and 12 at TWS... at least turn 12 is a sweeper and not a chicane... I have messed with model rockets for years... I could just fire off a rocket :shock:

mitchntx
03-19-2009, 07:51 PM
How about this?
http://www.christmaslightsetc.com/p/M5-LED-4-ft-X-6-ft-Green-Net-Lights-Green-Wire--19538.htm

Using a staple gun on a piece of black plywood, this 4'x6' blanket could be compressed into a 1'x2' green ray gun.

Light, portable and cheap.

jeffburch
03-19-2009, 08:37 PM
The only time this is ever a problem is at Cresson.
The track discourages getting too close with the flagger.
Flagger isn't the problem, it's the placement.
It's a DE/club track that prides itself on having nothing to hit if you have an OTE.
Give it up. Nothing will get done or changed.
See previous threads on this.
Bla-bla-bla.

jb

Todd Covini
03-19-2009, 08:48 PM
From the CCR...

20.8 Flagman Timed Start (split or not)
The Starter will raise a furled green flag over his / her head and open it slowly. After
displaying an open green flag for approximately five (5) seconds, the Starter will drop the
green flag. The group of cars will leave the starting line. In the case of a second group
of cars (split), the flagman will repeat the process; and again for every subsequent
group.
Once the green flag has been raised, and there is a need to abort the start, the Starter
will keep the flag in the air, and slowly furl it closed, then lower it in a slow motion with
the handle held vertically. This procedure should be done with care, as not to falsely
alert the driver to a start.

20.9 Light System Timed Start (split or not)
When applicable, there should be a three (3) yellow colored light system used. The
starter will light all three lights to indicate that the drivers should prepare for the start.
The starter will then turn off the lights one by one. The signal to start will be all lights off.
Should the light system fail the Race Director will order the start aborted. If the start is
aborted, the Starter (or other official) will wave a yellow flag at the field. Upon receiving
the yellow flag, the driver should prepare for a “Flagman Timed Start.”

Al Fernandez
03-20-2009, 09:58 AM
Good thoughts guys. I agree the primary problem is placement and visibility. Having a light set that can be placed somewhere and elevated to 20' or so might be ultra cool. 8)

evarner
03-20-2009, 10:25 AM
Texas Region Rocks!!!