DQ's

[ShadowBolt]

I know I'm new to this racing junk but why would a driver be DQ'ed for passing under yellow. Since I have been racing there have been several violations (like passing under double yellow) and I can't recall anyone getting DQ'ed (maybe I'm wrong)? Why would we want to take a racers season away? I know the rules are there to protect us but if we alienate the racers with penalties that take them out of the season points race they may leave us for the balance of the season and find out they no longer need CMC in their lives. The flagging was fucked up this weekend and I don't see this being something to take a guys season away for. In R2 we were getting the yellow for a car off in between 1 and 2. At the corner worker station at turn 2 I was getting told to slow down by a guy flailing his arms wildly! I did not slow down at his station.....why would I? Had I gone off I could have hit the car already off track. I think Mitch went off close to where he was. I think this should have been done differently to slow us down through that whole 1, 1A, 2 area but at station two there were no flags. If there was a pass under yellow a price should be paid but a DQ? James is as good a racer as we have in CMC and if it happened to him I'm sure it's only a matter of time before I pull something like this. For one quick moment I even wondered if the yellow at start/finish meant we were under full course yellow like in other forms of racing.

DQ or not everyone knows who's the top dog in CMC2!
There has to be another way. It was just an accident!

JJ

[AllZWay]

I really appreciate all the kind words from everyone, but I was clearly in the wrong.

I do think the penalty doesn't fit the crime for a one time offense.

I thought the same thing when it happened to Glenn and Al last year and it really should be looked at for the future.

I have no problem with the DQ for the passing under yellow....I just think you should be able to drop that race.

So for one mistake, I lost Toyo money, the win, and this race points....and effectively all season points.

BTW... I am not mad at any official for my mistake, but I am extremely disappointed in the rule itself and myself for being stupid.

[mitchntx]

Another driver was DQed last year for passing under a double yellow and the rules specifically say that a DQ penalty is possible for passing under a local yellow and the race director's discretionary call.

But, I'm with you, Jerry.

Officiating this time around was about as unorganized as I've witnessed in my short tenure.

EVERYONE knows what a black flag means. And later on during the driver's meeting, it became clear that some got a black flag because of an incident and others got a pace car.

There were too many examples of mistakes, on both sides, to warrant an extreme penalty like that.

Reference material ...

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf

19.3.4
ABSOLUTELY NO PASSING is permitted, until completely past the incident, or until past next manned flag station that is not displaying any Yellow Flag(s), whichever comes first.

25.5 Yellow Flag- Passing
A pass must be completed before the yellow flag station. This means that the overtaking driver must be completely in front of the overtaken car before either vehicle breaks the plane perpendicular to the track as defined by the yellow flag. Note- Drivers that attempt to “race to the yellow” to complete a pass may enter the yellow zone too fast and not under full control; and therefore be penalized for failing to comply with the conditions of the appropriate yellow flag rules. Harsh penalties WILL result for any passing under yellow flag situations. [Ref:(25.4.1)]

25.4.1 Passing General
The responsibility for the decision to pass another car, and to do it safely, rests with the overtaking driver. The overtaken driver should be aware that he/she is being passed and must not impede the pass by blocking. A driver who does not watch his/her mirrors or who appears to be blocking another car seeking a pass may be black-flagged and/or penalized. The act of passing is initiated when the trailing car’s (Car A) front bumper
overlaps with the lead car’s (Car B) rear bumper. The act of passing is complete when Car A’s rear bumper is ahead of Car B’s front umper. “NO PASSING” means a pass cannot even be initiated. Any overlap in a NO PASSING area is considered illegal.

27.11 Issuing Penalties
The IRB may choose to issue any penalty for any infraction. However, it is highly recommended that they follow closely with what is published in the rulebook. Any deviation from what is published without due proof of mitigating circumstance may be grounds for appeal. The following is a list of suggested penalties for the listed infraction:

1. Contact bumper to bumper with no deviation and no damage: No penalty
2. Any sheet metal contact with no damage and no deviation: No penalty
3. Any contact causing deviation, with no damage, but loss of a position: Reposition
4. Any contact resulting in “damage” as defined by these guidelines: One (1) race suspension
5. Any contact resulting in a “punt” as defined by these guidelines: Disqualification
6. Any contact resulting in damage and punt: Disqualification and one (1) race suspension
7. Passing under a standing yellow or double yellow: Reposition to last place (minimum)
8. Passing under waving yellow and / or over-driving any yellow: Disqualification (minimum)
These are general guidelines for standard penalties. They may be additive or multiplicative depending on the situation and the person’s past record. The IRB may invoke more severe penalties for repeated violations. Any deviation from these guidelines should be justified in the report to the Race Director.

27.12 Driver’s Points System
The IRB shall elect a “Pointskeeper” for the sake of keeping track of on track violations and penalties. Because the faults and/or penalties may be appealed, no results shall be official until personally approved by the Race Director, and/or published in The Penalty Box section of Speednews. The Pointskeeper will keep a tally on the accumulation of driver’s points for each driver. The following are guidelines for assigning points.

1. Contact bumper to bumper with no deviation and no damage: No points
2. Any sheet metal contact with no damage and no deviation: One (1) point each
3. Any contact causing deviation, with no damage, but loss of a position: Three (3) points for the offender, one (1) point for the other driver.
4. Any contact resulting in “damage” as defined by these guidelines: Three (3) points for the offender, one (1) point for the other driver.
5. Any contact resulting in a “punt” as defined by these guidelines: Three (3) points for the offender, one (1) point for the other driver.
6. Any contact resulting in damage and punt: Three (3) points for the offender, one (1) point for the other driver.
7. Passing under a standing yellow or double yellow: Two (2) points
8. Passing under waving yellow and/or over-driving any yellow: Three (3) points

[Wirtz]

Why is a DQ not droppable in the season points?

[ShadowBolt]

I did not know about the other DQ's from last year. Sorry. I still think the punishment is too harsh.

JJ

[GlennCMC70]

Team Pony Killers got DQ'ed the first race of the year last year.
DQ's are not droppable because it wouldnt be much of a penalty if the only affect was that you used us one of your 4 drops for the year.

i too feel the pnishment was to harsh. i was not in the loop on this and was totally blind sided w/ it from James. i'll look into this and see if we can at least have a couple of stages of penalies leading up to a DQ. my bet is group 7 (who has a history of stuff like this) was long over due for some major punishment for this very issue, got hammered and James pretty much had to get the same punishment for consistency reasons.

[michaelmosty]

I heard about this at the end of the day but thought there was still ongoing discussion about the final punishment.
Who was involved in the review of this?

The punishment does seem very excessive. What is the difference in passing upder yellow situations when sometimes individuals get repositioned to last place and others get a DQ?

[Waco Racer]

Please remember that the Emergancy Vehicle Flag was also displayed at start and rule 19.3.16 was in effect. This was the same situation that Team Pony Killers faced at MSRH last season.

According to 22.2.1 Default Points Drop System
All NASA series competitors will be able to drop their lowest ten percent (10%) of all season points-scoring races, unless otherwise specified by the class rules or other NASA publications. All “zeros” in the season points will be “droppable,” including all disqualifications; with exception of disqualifications as a result of “non-compliance” or “cheating.”

A situation like this could be dropped if CMC is using this portion of the rules in addition to their own points system. NASA Texas informed Team Pony Killers that they would not be allowed to drop the DQ because of them being Series Directors and are supposed to be the example for the other racers in the Series. As you know, last year I was really trying to clamp down on passing while the EV flag was being displayed.

This is a good discussion and I am willing to work with this series and its directors if the consensus is that something positive can be produced without compromising safety.

This post from me is for informational purposes. I will back out now and allow this discussion to develop. I look forward to hearing from the Series Directors on this issue.

[Todd Covini]

Thanks for the post, Clifton and the reminder from last year's penalty being a "example setting one".

I agree with the posts above and we'll discuss as was mentioned to James yesterday afternoon.

-=- T

[michaelmosty]

Thanks Clifton, great information!
We are pullin for ya James. :)

[AI#97]

Clifton, one other point I would like you to reiterate at EACH drivers meeting is the direction to SLOW down when in the area of the EV. In race 3, I was cooling it through T1 and T2 while the EV was out there. 2nd place car made up HUGE ground by still running on pace. Nothing against Mike because he hasn't heard your speech from last year, and probably not the only one racing this year. Please add your "SLOW DOWN!" direction for EV flags to your regular driver's meeting.

And I mean this only for the Cross flag with the displayed local yellow, not necessarily the full course because it is displayed at start finish. Correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks!

[mitchntx]

This is a good discussion


And that's exactly what it is. This discussion should be about learning and doing the right thing. None of this should should be about throwing some one under the bus.

I think this kind of discussion and subsequent learning experience is what sets us apart from the other groups.

[AI#97]

I think this kind of discussion and subsequent learning experience is what sets us apart from the other groups.

We have our moments and our "characters" but I agree 110%....and not just locally, but nationally as well.

[Todd Covini]

This is a good discussion


And that's exactly what it is. This discussion should be about learning and doing the right thing. None of this should should be about throwing some one under the bus.

I think this kind of discussion and subsequent learning experience is what sets us apart from the other groups.

Agreed. ...and good "discussions" during the enduro! :wink: :lol:

[AllZWay]

Thanks to Clifton, Todd, Al and Jay Matus for their class act in handling the situation.

I certainly take the situation very serious and expect and accept a penalty, I just thought it was too severe was the only reason I was pleading my case.

Thanks for any help you guys put into discussing this....even if in the end it doesn't help my situation, I would like to see it help others in the future.

James

[mitchntx]

This is a good discussion


And that's exactly what it is. This discussion should be about learning and doing the right thing. None of this should should be about throwing some one under the bus.

I think this kind of discussion and subsequent learning experience is what sets us apart from the other groups.

Agreed. Good "discussions" during the enduro! :wink: :lol:

Clarification ...

You mean when you came to us and asked about rules?

Or when you had your toe in the sand while whistling Dixie as as 5 guys were servicing cars and others were doing a buck 25 down pit road?

And a key point you left out .... I apologized. 8)

[Sidney]

This is coming from a General point of view and not aimed at Texas:

Yellow Flag observation in NASA is poor and I'm guessing due to the experience of the racing population as NASA has lots of new racers.

Everyone needs to stop racing, (I didn't say come to a crawl either), give the safety workers some breathing room, and go back to racing once past the flag.

Sidney Franklin
Midwest Region
CMC #64

[Todd Covini]

You mean when you came to us and asked about rules?

Or when you had your toe in the sand while whistling Dixie as as 5 guys were servicing cars and others were doing a buck 25 down pit road?

And a key point you left out .... I apologized. 8)

1) Yes. When we discussed rules for 7.5 hours. :wink:
2) Yes. Apparently so (in your opinion). :lol:
3) Yes. Duly noted. You're a gentleman & a scholar (most of the time). :D

FYI...In my brief time as a pit lane official, I've been yelled at by crew chiefs for Michael Shank, Wayne Taylor, Sylvain Trembley & Kevin Buckler. I'll add you to that list, Mitch Warren.

(Sometimes it just comes with the job. :wink: )

[GlennCMC70]

FYI...In my brief time as a pit lane official, I've been yelled at by crew chiefs for Michael Shank, Wayne Taylor, Sylvain Trembley & Kevin Buckler. I'll you to that list, Mitch Warren.

(Sometimes it just comes with the job. :wink: )
sounds like signature material to me.

[mitchntx]

FYI...In my brief time as a pit lane official, I've been yelled at by crew chiefs for Michael Shank, Wayne Taylor, Sylvain Trembley & Kevin Buckler. I'll you to that list, Mitch Warren.

(Sometimes it just comes with the job. :wink: )
sounds like signature material to me.

That's the difference between me and you, Landrum ...

You see signature material

I see a pattern emerging. :roll:

[AllZWay]

Please remember that the Emergancy Vehicle Flag was also displayed at start and rule 19.3.16 was in effect. This was the same situation that Team Pony Killers faced at MSRH last season.

According to 22.2.1 Default Points Drop System
All NASA series competitors will be able to drop their lowest ten percent (10%) of all season points-scoring races, unless otherwise specified by the class rules or other NASA publications. All “zeros” in the season points will be “droppable,” including all disqualifications; with exception of disqualifications as a result of “non-compliance” or “cheating.”

A situation like this could be dropped if CMC is using this portion of the rules in addition to their own points system. NASA Texas informed Team Pony Killers that they would not be allowed to drop the DQ because of them being Series Directors and are supposed to be the example for the other racers in the Series. As you know, last year I was really trying to clamp down on passing while the EV flag was being displayed.

This is a good discussion and I am willing to work with this series and its directors if the consensus is that something positive can be produced without compromising safety.

This post from me is for informational purposes. I will back out now and allow this discussion to develop. I look forward to hearing from the Series Directors on this issue.

In digging through the CCR and the CMC rules, I don't see anything that disallows the dropping of my DQ. Am I missing something?

Nasa CCR
22.2.1 Default Points Drop System
All NASA series competitors will be able to drop their lowest ten percent (10%) of all season points-scoring races, unless otherwise specified by the class rules or other NASA publications. All “zeros” in the season points will be “droppable,” including all disqualifications; with exception of disqualifications as a result of “non-compliance” or “cheating.”

22.2 Dropping Race Scores
Season points dropping systems are controlled by each Region, and may vary. Each Region may use any points drop system. If a Region does not publish a season points dropping system for any given class, then there will be no season points drops for that class. If a points-drop system is used, it is suggested that the Region use the Default System [Ref:(22.2.1)] for that class. It is the competitor’s responsibility to check with the Region office to ascertain what system, if any shall be used.



CMC Rules
3.5 Non-compliance/Cheating
Cheating and non-compliance will not be welcome and will receive harsh penalties. Non-compliance, defined as unintentional violation of CMC or NASA technical specifications will result in a disqualification. Cheating, defined as intentional violation of CMC or NASA technical specifications will result in multiple race disqualifications. Races resulting in disqualification or missed as a result of a suspension will result in zero points which will not be dropped from the annual points total. The CMC Officials may decrease or increase penalties up to permanent ejection from the series for non-Compliance or cheating based on the severity and recurrence of offenses.

[David Love AI27]

I don't intend to muck up the post BUT... something was said about sometimes it was a pace car and sometimes it was black flag all... this depends on the location of the incident... I have been working closely with the EV guys at TWS and they don't want to be on the course with ANY OF US!!! it is not as much poor driving or risk taking... it is moore along the lines of a mechanical failure that could cause a car to go out of control...

I feel really bad about the speeds I was doing through 1 and 2 because if I would have lost a tie rod and gone off there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY I could have come to a safe stop in the mud...

I am also good friends with the ones responsible for race control and flagging and they try extremly hard to let us race through an incident and I'm not ragging on JP at all because I have blown a few yellows in my day, but I will say that the workers have very good memories and if they see a trend in the way of blowing yellows they will take "control" on their own and have EVERY incidnet black flagged and we will loose valuable track time...

[Todd Covini]

Am I missing something?

Nasa CCR
22.2.1 Default Points Drop System
All NASA series competitors will be able to drop their lowest ten percent (10%) of all season points-scoring races, unless otherwise specified by the class rules or other NASA publications. All “zeros” in the season points will be “droppable,” including all disqualifications; with exception of disqualifications as a result of “non-compliance” or “cheating.”

22.2 Dropping Race Scores
Season points dropping systems are controlled by each Region, and may vary. Each Region may use any points drop system. If a Region does not publish a season points dropping system for any given class, then there will be no season points drops for that class. If a points-drop system is used, it is suggested that the Region use the Default System [Ref:(22.2.1)] for that class. It is the competitor’s responsibility to check with the Region office to ascertain what system, if any shall be used.



CMC Rules
3.5 Non-compliance/Cheating
Cheating and non-compliance will not be welcome and will receive harsh penalties. Non-compliance, defined as unintentional violation of CMC or NASA technical specifications will result in a disqualification. Cheating, defined as intentional violation of CMC or NASA technical specifications will result in multiple race disqualifications. Races resulting in disqualification or missed as a result of a suspension will result in zero points which will not be dropped from the annual points total. The CMC Officials may decrease or increase penalties up to permanent ejection from the series for non-Compliance or cheating based on the severity and recurrence of offenses.

See the Cyan color.... It's in the CMC rules and it continues to be reviewed.

-=- Todd

[Todd Covini]

I know "this ain't Grand Am", but here's how the big boys roll just for reference (and entertainment purposes):

http://www.grand-am.com/assets/2008ViolationList9.pdf

...and things stepped up considerably in 2009.

http://www.grand-am.com/assets/2009ViolationList2a.pdf

-=- T

[mitchntx]

I know "this ain't Grand Am", but here's how the big boys roll just for reference (and entertainment purposes):

http://www.grand-am.com/assets/2008ViolationList9.pdf

...and things stepped up considerably in 2009.

http://www.grand-am.com/assets/2009ViolationList2a.pdf

-=- T

:shock: $500 bucks!!!!

Todd, can I buy you a beer? :oops:

[AllZWay]

Am I missing something?

Nasa CCR
22.2.1 Default Points Drop System
All NASA series competitors will be able to drop their lowest ten percent (10%) of all season points-scoring races, unless otherwise specified by the class rules or other NASA publications. All “zeros” in the season points will be “droppable,” including all disqualifications; with exception of disqualifications as a result of “non-compliance” or “cheating.”

22.2 Dropping Race Scores
Season points dropping systems are controlled by each Region, and may vary. Each Region may use any points drop system. If a Region does not publish a season points dropping system for any given class, then there will be no season points drops for that class. If a points-drop system is used, it is suggested that the Region use the Default System [Ref:(22.2.1)] for that class. It is the competitor’s responsibility to check with the Region office to ascertain what system, if any shall be used.



CMC Rules
3.5 Non-compliance/Cheating
Cheating and non-compliance will not be welcome and will receive harsh penalties. Non-compliance, defined as unintentional violation of CMC or NASA technical specifications will result in a disqualification. Cheating, defined as intentional violation of CMC or NASA technical specifications will result in multiple race disqualifications. Races resulting in disqualification or missed as a result of a suspension will result in zero points which will not be dropped from the annual points total. The CMC Officials may decrease or increase penalties up to permanent ejection from the series for non-Compliance or cheating based on the severity and recurrence of offenses.

See the Cyan color.... It's in the CMC rules and it continues to be reviewed.

-=- Todd

Todd...thanks again for looking at this, but my interpretation of this rule would be it is soley discussing DQ's that involve non-compliance and cheating...but again I am biased. :)

[Todd Covini]

:shock: $500 bucks!!!!

Todd, can I buy you a beer? :oops:

:lol: :lol: :lol: No need. Like I said, "Sometimes it comes with the job."

For those of you that have driven in an enduro, you'll watch road racing with a new set of eyes now.
Attend the Rolex 24, and it'll add color and 3 dimensions when you watch American road racing on TV.

Imagine a world where nearly ALL the teams are as tenacious, passionate & stubborn about the competition as LAW Motorsports. :wink: It can get pretty intense along the pit wall.

[Al Fernandez]

Ok boys and girls...I've been silent on this thread for a while, but not inactive. I've spent the last three days emailing and talking to the CMC Natnl. Directors and their respective Race Directors, on a mini crusade to learn and improve. Here is a run down....

First, NASA's intent of 22.2.1: DQs due to vehicle infractions are not dropable, but on-track driver mistakes are. That is the default desired stance from the national point of view. It is interesting that not everyone I talked to was interpreting this rule as such. (instead thinking that if you blow a double yellow you didnt comply with the double yellow rule, therefore your dq is not droppable due to non-compliance)

Second, NASA's default drop rate is 10%. Therefore, NASA's default is a driver that gets a DQ and drops it is left with only one remaining drop for the season. CMC's drop rate is 20%.

Third, CMC has had DQs for any reason non-dropable since the beginning.

Fourth, the general concensus of the CMC Board is that all DQs being automatic non drop 0s is too harsh. On the flip side, a DQ means you did something very serious. Being allowed to drop it and still having three more drops is too lenient.

Monday I initiated a request to the CMC Board to change the CMC DQ rule with the intent of making the change have effect retroactive to the beginning of the season. Lots of ideas were floating around. We had some text down that it appeared most were happy with (cheating is never dropable, honest mistake is still not dropable but your first offense is scored as 50 instead of 0...half way between a drop and a non-drop 0)

Last night I put the brakes on that effort. I am not interested in making a change to a rule this important without giving ourselves the time to process and ensure its what we want long term.

So, instead of knee-jerking with the book, we're going to allow ourselves sufficient time to fully bake the long term solution and at the same time we're going to re-evaluate Jame's particular infraction and re-evaluate whether the penalty deserves to be decreased (as the rules allow us to do)

Now, I want to ensure absolute transparency and lack of conflict of interest so I have pulled myself out of Jame's case review and instead asked Todd, Glenn, Kent Lydic and Tony G to discuss and recommend. Kent is the east coast guy, also a national director and all around great guy. This review group then has two local guys and two non-locals, so it should be as unbiased as possible while still understanding the specifics of the situation. Todd and Glenn will then discuss the recommendation w/Clifton and come to a resolution.

I called James last night and we spoke at length so he's up to speed.

James, sorry to keep you in limbo a couple more days. I honestly thought changing the rule would be easier, otherwise I would've started the review of your case Monday instead.

Comments welcome.

[mitchntx]

Todd spoke to us all about the perception that this group was getting "special" consideration by those running the show.

I hope James' penalty wasn't an example of that NOT being the case.

I know that it's hard to walk the line between official, director, competitor and friend.

As my competitors and friends, I will strive very hard to not put those in charge in a compromising position.

Conversely, I want those in charge to deliver a consistent message.

[Al Fernandez]

Just to be clear, I believe what has transpired up until now is exactly as Texas likes it: by the book. James passed several cars under a waving yellow, with a swiss cross, on a straight, not on the first lap the flag was out. The CCR states passing under a waving yellow is a DQ. Clifton did exactly what is what the book says, is expected, and has been done in this region. The CMC rules state DQ is not dropable. Everything so far is exemplary of NO special consideration, simply running the show by the book.

[mitchntx]

I thought it was a standing Yellow, not waving. You sure about that?

[Todd Covini]

Great job of framing the issue at hand, Al, and thanks for herding the cats this week to discuss it all.

The other consideration is that #28 was 1 of 7 cars who were also DQ'd for the same offense, in the same location. The other 6 cars were in Group 7, and another series. (Part of the fun of running a combined run group.)

IMO...all 7 cars should be equally penalized for the same infraction. I'll get with Glenn, the other CMC directors and Martin this evening.

-=- Todd

[ShadowBolt]

I thought it was a standing Yellow, not waving. You sure about that?

I have video of that race and the yellow was NEVER waving in the five laps I made when I went under the flag stand. It was standing. As soon as Jay gets off his ass and post my vid you will see what I mean.


Jerry

[RichardP]

IMO...all 7 cars should be equally penalized for the same infraction.


Equally penalized is an interesting term. Certainly from Clifton's side, it needs to appear that all cars were equally penalized and a DQ for everyone accomplishes that.

From the other side, a DQ is certainly not an equal penalty to everyone.

When Chris and I were running for the championship, a DQ would have lost us the championship and would have been a penalty equal to thousands of dollars. It would have been a very big deal.

On the other hand, if we show up at the next event in that orange thing and get a DQ in say the second Saturday race, who cares? We would miss out on a little chunk of plastic and maybe the opportunity to be in the podium picture if anyone bothers to take one. Is that even a penalty? It wouldn't bother me much and we would be ready to start fresh the next day. Being told we had to start from the back for the next four races or told we had to go home would be penalties. Being DQ'd, irrelevant...

Make sure your equal penalties are "equal."


Richard P.

[Al Fernandez]

IMO...all 7 cars should be equally penalized for the same infraction.

Really?

Driver A is a rookie, driving in his first wheel to wheel race under a provisional. Driver B is a veteran with three years under his belt who has never been penalized for a driving infraction. Driver C is a veteran with three years under his belt who in the last two years has committed multiple flag related infractions.

Should all three drivers receive the same penalty for committing the same infraction?

Waving is what I was told, it wasnt my call to make.

[AllZWay]

I appreciate the thought and effort by everyone that is involved in looking at this rule. It sounds to me as if I was not the only one that interpeted the rule differently and that different regions handled it differently.

I am interested in seeing video if anyone has it of R2.

JB did send me a photo that showed the yellow flag out, but it is not possible to see it waving or that the Cross flag was out at that time, but I am not disputing my guilt.

I do take the passing under a yellow flag, waving flag or cross flag very serious and deserve a penalty....I just thought that a season ending penalty was too severe. It did cost me points, money, embarrassment, a win already for a first time offense.

I personally would like to see the future of the rule to be some graduating scale that first time offense is X-penalty, second offense in a year of much more severe and even possibly season ending at that point.

The Nasa CCR clearly was not meant as a season ending penalty and my interpetation of the CMC rules were the same, but I do see where it could be looked at differently.

Ultimately, I will accept any penalty that is given and I will continue to finish the season. I initially was very upset and voiced that I might just quit, but as you saw I did go out and race the last race and my emotions are much better in check now and I can't wait until Hallett.

I apologize to everyone for my action on track and creating this controversy. I would also like to apologize to all the corner workers and safety workers for missing the flag.

[mitchntx]

IMO...all 7 cars should be equally penalized for the same infraction.

Really?

Driver A is a rookie, driving in his first wheel to wheel race under a provisional. Driver B is a veteran with three years under his belt who has never been penalized for a driving infraction. Driver C is a veteran with three years under his belt who in the last two years has committed multiple flag related infractions.

Should all three drivers receive the same penalty for committing the same infraction?

Waving is what I was told, it wasnt my call to make.

Subjective and discretion is where we are right now.

I mean, Glenn was a rookie and his car was 3 HP over the limit, probably because of weather conditions more than anything else.

Based upon your conjecture, he should have gotten a less severe penalty than if the same scenario happened today.

[Al Fernandez]

There is no conjecture there Mitch; I didnt present a conclusion, merely a question.

[BlueFirePony]

As far as having a 'grace period' or graduating penalty - isn't that was provisional is for? Maybe we need a longer provisional period if people are veterans and have not seen enough different circumstances?

BTW, it's great that guys like JP are standing tall on this sort of thing...rulez is rulez as they are at the time you compete.
Now if we want to change the rulez afterward and have the next race go under a different set then I am all for that.
Outside of that, and open discussion on the interpretation is healthy as you can't possible document every scenarios (I was a hockey official for 10 years including elite level and OMG how many friggin' scenarios are open to interpretation even in that rule book!)
I do also think that for a first time infraction intent and outcome should be considered in assessing the penalty. After that I think the penalty leans more toward strict interpretation of the rule.

[mitchntx]

There is no conjecture there Mitch; I didnt present a conclusion, merely a question.

fair enough. The way it's written and reading it aloud, it sounds rhetorical to me.

[Al Fernandez]

Is this where we get into a reading comprehension debate Mitch? :wink: :lol:
I really was asking the question. I am wondering where others stand.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Al struggles with reading comprehension, Mitch.

Or, in Al-land, the above sentence looks like this: "Al...blah, blah, blah...Mitch."

[Todd Covini]

Al struggles with reading comprehension, Mitch.

Or, in Al-land, the above sentence looks like this: "Al...blah, blah, blah...Mitch."

Wow! Adam...you even come in on que!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[jeffburch]

Uh oh.
Mitch/Adam agree?
(one of the seven signs?)
jb

[Al Fernandez]

It certainly did look like that when Adam typed it! :lol:

[AI#97]

the flag at start finish was NEVER waving regardless of what it was in any race except for the checkered flag.

Only thing EVER displayed on the straight in race 2 was the swiss cross. Yellows were done locally near the incident. In race 3 ONLY, the yellow was displayed at S/F with swiss cross due to the incident in 1a/2.... corner workers at 2 had NO FLAG but were bowing to my glory...or signalling to slow down? Perception?

<----Still thinks James is getting boned.

[ShadowBolt]

the flag at start finish was NEVER waving regardless of what it was in any race except for the checkered flag.

Only thing EVER displayed on the straight in race 2 was the swiss cross. Yellows were done locally near the incident. In race 3 ONLY, the yellow was displayed at S/F with swiss cross due to the incident in 1a/2.... corner workers at 2 had NO FLAG but were bowing to my glory...or signalling to slow down? Perception?

<----Still thinks James is getting boned.
.

The yellow was out as you can see in the video I posted of R2 but it was standing not waving.


JJ

[AI#97]

The yellow was out as you can see in the video I posted of R2 but it was standing not waving.


JJ

If we are having to go back to video to tell if a flag was displayed....maybe it isn't being displayed in a good line of sight and we need to improve that...?

[Todd Covini]

The starter stand displayed the local standing yellow, the waving yellow and full course yellows (in addition to the green, EV & checkered flag) during that race. It changed depending on the situations they had there. (At one point a car had actually spun in front of the EV's, and it was a pretty hairy situation with cars going into T1 at full song...trust me, it was a vigorously waving yellow during that time.)

If the starter stand on the front straight isn't the best place to indicate there's trouble in T1/T2, I don't know what would be...but we're all ears. :)

-=- T

[Alien]

If the starter stand on the front straight isn't the best place to indicate there's trouble in T1/T2, I don't know what would be...but we're all ears. :)

-=- T
I thought at one time or another, they use to have a flag station at the top of NASCAR 1. I saw 2 people standing up there and at first wondered why they weren't displaying any flags.

[Wirtz]

I know SCCA normally has at least one person at the top of the straight on the outside. At least when they had enough workers.

Jeff

[AI#97]

If the starter stand on the front straight isn't the best place to indicate there's trouble in T1/T2, I don't know what would be...but we're all ears. :)

-=- T

end of the pit wall...? Nascar T1...? Biggest issue is you are focusing SO far down the track and dealing with a very unstable car on the rough surface that the station is so high and to the right, you lose it in your line of site behind and above the rear view mirror roof very quickly. throw a few cars on track and close racing and you lose it pretty quickly. I might even suggest a lower mounted lighting system in two or 3 places along the front straight outer wall... costs within reason.

[AllZWay]

I wouldn't want to call anyone out....but it appears that I was not the only one to pass under the yellow. :shock:

I think we sort of got knumb to yellow flags after seeing so many for the weekend.

[Todd Covini]

I might even suggest a lower mounted lighting system in two or 3 places along the front straight outer wall... costs within reason.

There's an old NASCAR 2 yellow light at the end of the straight. Maybe David Love could run an extension cord out to them next year.

[David Love AI27]

I might even suggest a lower mounted lighting system in two or 3 places along the front straight outer wall... costs within reason.

There's an old NASCAR 2 yellow light at the end of the straight. Maybe David Love could run an extension cord out to them next year.

found the control box in the tower on Monday while investigating the timing loop issue (which works fine for other groups). lights along the front straight are easily accessible, others not so... how many noticed that there is a control light at the runoff of 3??? I have the knowledge to build a box that could go flashing (waving) or a steady (standing) yellow...

All it takes is a lot of squeaking to get the grease... oh and don't bring it to me, I'm just an employee

[David Love AI27]

I might even suggest a lower mounted lighting system in two or 3 places along the front straight outer wall... costs within reason.

There's an old NASCAR 2 yellow light at the end of the straight. Maybe David Love could run an extension cord out to them next year.

and a light on the flag stand at S/F

[Al Fernandez]

Call them out James!! :lol:

I had a pretty close call. I came out onto the straight to see Frank, Jeff W, and Jerry J going really slow in front of me. I stood on it hoping the yellow was gone or that I'd clear them well well well ahead of the flag station. I cleared Frank but couldnt get by Jeff and Jerry clearly so I lifted and gave the position back. Remember the incident wasnt until well past the flag station. As it turned out Jerry was messing with his clutch right there and slowed dramatically. Jeff took his place back. Then Jeremiah (sneaky!) slipped past too.

I went up to Clifton afterwards to make sure we were ok, that he saw I slowed and gave the positions back since it wasnt clear if I had cleared them in time. Man did he give me a verbal slapdown! :oops: In public no less. He was really pissed at me, an offical, for racing to the flag instead of just holding my place and taking my time. And he's right, I should've just waited until I could verify whether it was out or not.

[David Love AI27]

If the starter stand on the front straight isn't the best place to indicate there's trouble in T1/T2, I don't know what would be...but we're all ears. :)

-=- T
I thought at one time or another, they use to have a flag station at the top of NASCAR 1. I saw 2 people standing up there and at first wondered why they weren't displaying any flags.

when I worked SCCA events they had workers at 1high and 1low, the "low" station was between the hot pits and track and was a good yelow flag station with 1high being better for blue flags. while beneficial for the drivers both stations had little or no protection and I was hit once by flying debris at 1high (something like Carl Edwards wreck at Talladega). 1 low was just as scarey as you had to deal with cars coming at you from both sides.

I like the 1low location since it gives the high speed cars a chance to complete a pass by the end of the straight, on the otherhand it could make for a more dangerous situation if the driver goes in deeper to complete the pass before the station and goes off at full speed in the direction that Mitch was in...

I'm rambling... FACT there was a yellow flag at start/finish and lots of cars "blew" it, some were penalized and other were not... bad business

Like NASCAR it all starts at the top... question is will finger pointing in the public forums get you in trouble???? My New Years resolution is to try and stay positive... and to disclose some of the nasty facts is negative so I'm ending my input in the matter....

[Todd Covini]

FYI...I spoke with James Proctor today regarding the status of his Round 3 DQ.

After much deliberation & discussions with the Texas CMC Directors, Clifton, National CMC Directors as well as the NASA TX and National office, all are in agreement that a NON-DROPPABLE DQ for the infraction of passing under yellow, is too severe in James' case.

As such, the penalty for James will be a DROPPABLE DQ and he will be required to start his next race from the back of the field. This penalty is more severe than the CCR, however less severe than the CMC rules as currently written.

The original intent of making the CMC rules more stringent than the CCR in the area of DQ's (non-droppable) is to prevent someone from "rolling the dice" with their actions, knowing that CMC has more drops than the CCR default system. (i.e.- A series champion should not be able to drop 4 DQ's in a season.)

The CMC rule will remain in effect for the remainder of the year and at the conclusion of the season, will be considered for modification based upon the National observations and each of the regional series director's input.

-=- Todd Covini

[michaelmosty]

I'm glad to hear the situation was resolved with an appropriate outcome.
James is going to have some fun during R1 at Hallett! :)

[ShadowBolt]

I'm planning to take him to the woodshed all weekend at Hallett.

How started this thread? Congratz James. I'm glad it was done the way it should have been. I want to whip you fair and square someday in the points, not from a DQ.

JJ

[Al Fernandez]

I want to thank Todd, Glenn, Kent Lydic (east coast CMC director) and Tony G (chief cmc director) for their time and work in this. You guys did a great job.

For the record, I volunteered these four to disseminate the facts I had gathered up around the use of DQs and the points systems throughout three regions of NASA and come up with the appropriate path forward. Being (a distant!) second in points, I wanted to ensure nobody could question any decisions being biased for personal gain.

James...sorry you had to be the one to deal with this. We should have addressed this long ago.

For the rest of us...please do take the time to think about this CMC rule and make sure Glenn, Todd, and myself understand your thoughts prior to the rules silly season when we'll make a permanent change to how this is written.

[AllZWay]

James is going to have some fun during R1 at Hallett! :)

No kidding....biggest field of the year and I start last. :shock:

Thanks again for all the notes of support and especially those involved in revisiting the rules.

I apoligize again for having a head up butt race and blowing the flag that created this whole mess.

I without question deserved a penalty and think this is a fair compromise.