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Al Fernandez
06-05-2009, 11:33 AM
AI has no limit on wheel weights, so this is strictly CMC. In there, the rules state minimum weight of 16" wheels is to be 16lbs and 17" wheels is to be 18lbs.

What the rules do not state is whether the weight of the wheel shall consider only the wheel itself or can include weight of other hardware such as balancing weights and spacers.

I see advantages and disadvantages to both sides but Mitch will get upset if I voice them...so, what say you?

Fbody383
06-05-2009, 01:56 PM
I think "wheel" is pretty self-explanatory.

What about a 50lb "Lite-weight Wheel" wheel adder and run whatever wheels you want? You declare you want to run "Lite-weight Wheel," note it and bump the mininum weight on the windshield sticker.

Someone can protest a competitor for $20 and help 'em take the wheels on/off/to the scales.

Yeah, yeah sprung vs. unsprung weight...

Rookies.

mitchntx
06-05-2009, 11:33 PM
but Mitch will get upset if I voice them


uncle

michaelmosty
06-08-2009, 12:52 AM
There is no vote for what I think so:
I like the setup Marshall has on his wheels. It is a form of press fit spacer that sticks to the wheel when removed. To get the spacer off you have to tap on it with a screwdriver and hammer.

I know it would be a little more information to keep but it could be noted the spacer thickness and material on the dyno sheet or log book. You could take the manufacturer wheel weight and then weigh the spacer with a postal scale to get your total weight (at least 18 lbs, or whatever).

GlennCMC70
06-08-2009, 06:43 AM
thats just a normal hub-centric spacer.

Al Fernandez
06-08-2009, 07:58 AM
uncle

:lol: alright I'll stop

Todd Covini
06-10-2009, 12:08 AM
In reality, A typical compliance check will be to dismount the tire and weigh the wheel....not going to start asking for studs & spacers & other stuff to weigh with that wheel.

Al Fernandez
06-10-2009, 09:12 AM
With 20 votes in its 75% in favor of the wheel alone, no add ons that arent permanent. I realize this voting could be messed with but that appears to be the majority view, which I'll happily support. Please do email me if you think otherwise.

mitchntx
06-10-2009, 09:46 AM
Why not make it the tire/wheel package instead of just the wheel.

Reasoning:

- It should be a weight "as raced", like current total weight is measured, so that it's fair and real. But only those components that make up the wheel package. A spacer is for track width and/or suspension tuning, not wheel weight. But, balance weights are a part of the package. Being as wheel offset is unlimited (to a degree), if someone wants to go to the trouble and expense of welding a spacer to a wheel in order to make minimum, then go ahead ... as long as it meets whee/tire weight minimums, what's the big deal.

- It wouldn't require breaking down a tire in order to measure. It could be done with a jack and a lug wrench at the track. As the car rolls off the scales, it moves to impound and a tire/wheel is removed, excess rubber "buggers" are brushed away and weighed. Simple. If you are close on bathroom scales, chances are good you could be under on the "official" scales. So just like we currently walk the line with car minimums, wheel minimums can be treated exactly the same. It's a given and accepted practice.

- The weight of the tire is a given so no one can fudge there. If you want to know the weight of the rim, do a little math. Some words about shaved vs unshaved, new vs old, etc. could be added for clarification. Personally, a mounted bald 16" and a mounted bald 17" should be the minimum.

FWIW

Fbody383
06-10-2009, 12:57 PM
Why not make it the tire/wheel package instead of just the wheel.

I think the idea is right, but wouldn't it still effectively fix the weight of the wheel since we all use the same tire?

Alien
06-10-2009, 01:36 PM
Yes, but it makes it easier for all to police. See Mitch's 2nd bullet.

If you show up wik a 'new' wheel nobody has seen before, you won't have to go through the trouble of dismounting/remounting to prove it's legit.

Tire+Wheel+30psi = XX lbs

Fbody383
06-10-2009, 03:36 PM
Yes, but it makes it easier for all to police. See Mitch's 2nd bullet.

Fair enough, agree and thought about that after I posted; are we adding a humidity spec to tire aire? 8)

Should there be a minimum wheel weight?

AI#97
06-10-2009, 04:21 PM
From an AI perspective, who cares what the wheel weighs or how much the racer had to pay for it? Set the max diameter and width and be done with it. No requirement to mount/dismount, easy to police with a simple tape measure and let's racers be racers, not craigslist engineers.

keep it simple stupid.

AllZWay
06-10-2009, 04:30 PM
Should there be a minimum wheel weight?

I think so... If not, some folks will spend enormous amounts of money to buy those ultra light weighted wheels for the advantage.

Then we are back to deep pocket racing.

jeffburch
06-10-2009, 04:39 PM
keep it simple stupid.
Enjoy AI Einstein!

jb

michaelmosty
06-10-2009, 04:47 PM
What if we do something similar to front shocks? No minimum weight but put a max $$ you can spend on a set.

AI#97
06-10-2009, 04:52 PM
Then we are back to deep pocket racing.

I doubt it. the lightest wheels out there (about 16.2lbs) for both AI/CMC2 are commercially available for $250ea. going any lighter means mega bucks and chance to damage them too easily. So far, I only know of one dumbass that has spent that kind of money. Of course if we go that direction, I think Enkei needs to sponsor our series! LOL!!!

Personally, when an F-body can get a wheel set that meets the rules for $400, and it costs a mustang racer $2000 to do the same, that's just stupid. then saying it is to level parity between platforms is even more stupid. That's like saying that mustangs have to run Hawk Blues and F-bodies can run PFC 01's so there is good parity. If there is proof that the current legal brake packages allow one platform to stop better than another, or wheel weight is allowing one platform to get out of a corner better than the other, write the rules to specify that and explain it to the masses.

all this is just the mustang guys looking for a cheaper option to get to the same "advantage" the f-body guys can get to for cheap.

if you are going to be this anal about what wheel weights you guys use, why is there no maximum? Let's say a competitor KNOWS he is going to get sealed at the end of the weekend and carries along two wheels for the rear of the car that weigh 40 lbs ea in lieu of his regular 21lb'ers. He runs the final race of the weekend with them and "throws away" the last race. Now he shows up to dyno and is WAY under on power. Protest? Shove it, it was dyno'd as last raced.

Hence why I think a wheel weight rule is ludicrous but I have no dog in this hunt...

jeffburch
06-10-2009, 05:01 PM
That's right, no doggie.
Maybe your way of rationalizing is why the fords have a 100# weight advantage.
Supposedly it all evens out in the wash.
:?
XOXO

jb

AllZWay
06-10-2009, 05:02 PM
Perhaps not many would spend enormous money...but the second that person starts dominating with high dollar wheels....everyone is forced to spend to compete.

Beleive me.. racers will spend the very MAXIMUM that is allowed if their is a real or even a perceived advantage.

Just go to your local dirt track and see the amount of money folks spend where the rules don't stop it.


I understand the Mustangs looking for cheaper options and I would be too, but opening up the rules is that slipperly slope I don't like to see us slide on.

AI#97
06-10-2009, 05:06 PM
That's right, no doggie.
Maybe your way of rationalizing is why the fords have a 100# weight advantage.
Supposedly it all evens out in the wash.
:?
XOXO

jb

No problem. I will just comment on how heavy your car looks on track over the radio! ;)

michaelmosty
06-10-2009, 05:36 PM
That's right, no doggie.
Maybe your way of rationalizing is why the fords have a 100# weight advantage.
Supposedly it all evens out in the wash.
:?
XOXO

jb
The Fox has a 100 # advantage, every other Ford has a 50# advantage.
It is making a huge difference!!! Last year Fords won 4.8% of the CMC races. This year Ford has won 9.1% of the races.
I guess it is b/c Ford guys can't drive and don't know how to tune a car. :wink:

jeffburch
06-10-2009, 05:40 PM
That called the Wirtz factor.

jb

Also, for any year in any region, delete the top winners or points leaders for each marque to get good data.

Wirtz
06-10-2009, 06:20 PM
Shoot, I just watched JB when I was building my car, thought it looked like fun, and have been trying to copy what he does...

Specing something, but then not controling the source of the parts will not stop someone from spending money to find an advantage. Alot of times it only costs more money to go find the elusive parts. Look at SFR or something similar; what a new rim? Then you go buy the one rim approved for the series. End of story. Course, those guys are always bitching about how much the part costs anyway. And nothing stops Joe Racer from buying 50 rims, measuring them all, and keeping the lightest of the bunch... Bah!! I'm going to AIX....

GlennCMC70
06-10-2009, 06:47 PM
good job Matt.
you compaired used F-body wheels prices to new ford stuff.
also, the $400 sets are only 9", so try again.

AI#97
06-10-2009, 06:59 PM
good job Matt.
you compaired used F-body wheels prices to new ford stuff.
also, the $400 sets are only 9", so try again.

No, I compared AVAILABLE to AVAILABLE. show me a used $400 set of ford wheels that weigh 18lbs....they don't exist. cheapest set of $400 wheels a ford can get weigh 21lbs each (konigs at a great deal) or 95R's that weigh 25 to 26 lbs each in the $300/set range. All of which are 9"....I suppose Mustang racers could buy up $200 sets of "snowflakes" that came on the 99-2000 GT's, then have them widened to 9.5" and that would put them probably at about 20lbs but would still have them at 250 bucks a wheel.

So that begs the question, if all these CHEAP wheels are only 9's from the factory....why make the rule for 9.5" max?! Again complicating things and opening the door for some clown to go buy 3pc wheels at $500 to 600 each...if they want to.

The simplest thing to do is modify the min weight rule to 16lbs or eliminate it entirely.

I guess I am looking at this to simply but it's funny how it seems the F-body guys are the ones putting up the fight on this! If the rule was 16lb min...you could run lighter wheels too! :roll: LOL!!!!

GlennCMC70
06-10-2009, 08:09 PM
there are no GM wheels that are 18lbs.
17x9's are 19lbs for the SS 10 spokes. 21lbs for the 5 spokes.
the aftermarket wheels for a 4th gen are all 9.5".
i didnt make the rule. i dont like the 17" wheel rule.

i honestly cant believe eveyone is so upset over 1/2" of width and wheel availability/cost.

this same argument has been had over the 16" wheel situation over the last few years. Fords are 7" and GM's are 8". my 16's are 19lbs and Jeff B/Jeff W's are 16lbs. so what.

whats it cost for spherical bearings for the front LCA for a Ford? for my GM it was $300. wanna regear the 5th in a T-56, dig up $900. whats that cost in a Ford T-5? wanna run a Ford 302 carb motor in a Fox/SN-95, have at it. not so in a 4th gen. wanna get your Ford legally to 2800lbs, no problem, we then can use a 100lbs of steel plate as a battery box or cool suit mount to use as legal ballast behind the main hoop. cant do that in a 4th gen. wanna make CMC and CMC-2 hp numbers w/ minimal fuss? get a 4th gen.

whats my point? the point is, some rules are easier for one platform to maximize that others. each has its easy spots to work the rules and some have hard ones.

the rule is set as a max, not a requirement. get the 17x8's widened. you will be in at around $1000. not worth it, fine. i dont think its worth it to switch to 17's. should i go on a mission to ban 17's cause i dont think its worth it? no.

Matt - i swear you will bitch about anything. even shit that doesnt affect you. is bitching your other hobby?

GlennCMC70
06-10-2009, 08:15 PM
all day long for under $2K.
http://motors.shop.ebay.com/items/?_nkw=mustang+wheels+17&_sacat=6028&_trksid=p4506.m270.l1311&_odkw=&_osacat=6028

AI#97
06-10-2009, 08:29 PM
all day long for under $2K.
http://motors.shop.ebay.com/items/?_nkw=mustang+wheels+17&_sacat=6028&_trksid=p4506.m270.l1311&_odkw=&_osacat=6028

All 17x8's...LOL!!! The one 17x9 doesn't work on fox/sn95 but on S197's only...

As someone who builds Mustangs to race in this series....uh, yeah, I will complain a little. I have lost a couple customers over the last two years as they got frustrated with "stupid rules that don't make sense." their words...and they were drag racers I was trying to turn into road racers.

mitchntx
06-10-2009, 09:00 PM
all day long for under $2K.
http://motors.shop.ebay.com/items/?_nkw=mustang+wheels+17&_sacat=6028&_trksid=p4506.m270.l1311&_odkw=&_osacat=6028

All 17x8's...LOL!!! The one 17x9 doesn't work on fox/sn95 but on S197's only...

As someone who builds Mustangs to race in this series....uh, yeah, I will complain a little. I have lost a couple customers over the last two years as they got frustrated with "stupid rules that don't make sense." their words...and they were drag racers I was trying to turn into road racers.

oh .. oh ... oh ... lemme, lemme, oh, oh, please, lemme ...

http://www.israellycool.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/horshack.jpg


It is what it is

jeffburch
06-10-2009, 09:07 PM
Hey Matt/Mike!
What 17" wheels are readily available for 3rd gen Camaros?
Any width.

End of argument I think huh!

jb

AllZWay
06-10-2009, 09:16 PM
i dont like the 17" wheel rule.



Same here.....

GlennCMC70
06-10-2009, 09:21 PM
wow, imagine that....... two guys who have it easy not liking a rule.

mitchntx
06-10-2009, 09:32 PM
i dont like the 17" wheel rule.



Same here.....

As I recall, that was one of the concessions that had to be made to allow a platform into the CMC family. It came stock with 13" brakes and 16s wouldn't clear it. And no one made a small brake package for it ...

GlennCMC70
06-10-2009, 09:34 PM
was it a Ford?

so, factory 13" brakes? not on a 4th gen or 3rd gen.

marshall_mosty
06-10-2009, 09:35 PM
thats just a normal hub-centric spacer.
Glenn,
At the end of the day... yes. The Enki RPF-1's are indeed a lightweight 17X9.5" wheel that weigh 16.5 lbs. However, once you add a permanently pressed in 1/2" spacer, the weight is 18.0 lbs.

The Enkei's require parts to become hubcentric and spaced properly for the Fox's. One to make it hubcentric. This is a thin ring of aluminum. The second is a Maximum Motorsports hubcentric spacer.

Just my .02

ShadowBolt
06-10-2009, 09:37 PM
i dont like the 17" wheel rule.



Same here.....


Same here. I'm going to keep runing 16's. I'm not even running as wide a tire as we can run in CMC.


JJ

marshall_mosty
06-10-2009, 09:39 PM
What if I permanently, and I do mean permanently marry the wheel and spacer together. Then wouldn't it indeed be "part of the wheel"?

GlennCMC70
06-10-2009, 09:41 PM
being able to tap it out w/ a hammer is not "permanent".
the point still remains, if its not welded, someone will have to check and keep lists of who's wheels require other parts to make wieght and who's doesnt. not gonna happen.

RichardP
06-11-2009, 08:37 AM
Please don’t weld on your wheels. It’s not that it can’t be done. It’s just much easier to screw up than it is to get it right. Not only does welding distort parts, the last thing we need is for a wheel to fail because a heat affected zone was added at the most highly stressed part of the wheel.

Gluing the spacer on was mentioned. I’m good with this. There are several structural adhesives that, with good surface prep and the surface areas involved, would be stronger than a weld around the perimeter of a wheel spacer.


Richard P.

AI#97
06-11-2009, 09:06 AM
Hey Matt/Mike!
What 17" wheels are readily available for 3rd gen Camaros?
Any width.

End of argument I think huh!

jb

www.forgeline.com :lol:

It will probably be written into the rules that "any 3rd gen camaro driver with the first name 'Jeff', will be required to run 30lb 16" wheels, exactly 1" narrower than the next fastest competitor..." It's that "parity" thing you guys talk about! ;)

Al Fernandez
06-11-2009, 09:45 AM
when an F-body can get a wheel set that meets the rules for $400, and it costs a mustang racer $2000 to do the same

BS The $400 OEM 4th gen wheels are not 18lbs AND 9.5". Other than 3rd gens, I dont see how any of the other platforms are at a distinct disadvantage in the wheel area for CMC2.

I'd consider glue to be permanent Michael.

Mitch...very cool thoughts. Trying to make this easier to police would certainly be helpful, even if at the end of the day the result of the rule is effectively the same thing.

GlennCMC70
06-11-2009, 10:09 AM
i'm good w/ the adheasive thing Richard mentioned. although, Elmers and buggers are not what i would consider adequate adhesives.

the point i was pushing for was "permanent".

marshall_mosty
06-11-2009, 11:51 AM
So, can someone leagally modify a set of 17 x 9.5" Enkei RPF1's that weigh 16.5 lbs by permanetly bonding a set of centering rings and spacers with structural adhesive that would then achieve a minimum weight of 18.0 lbs?

Looking for a yes/no from a director.

GlennCMC70
06-11-2009, 11:52 AM
i say yes.

but my word is not final in this matter.

marshall_mosty
06-11-2009, 07:48 PM
i say yes.
but my word is not final in this matter.What needs to be done to get a final ruling?

GlennCMC70
06-11-2009, 08:51 PM
have it appear in the rule book. the official process is to wait till the rules silly season opens and submit for it to be amended.
is there a pressing need for this to change before then?

Todd Covini
06-11-2009, 09:58 PM
Soooooo....just playing devils advocate.

If we're looking to allow someone to permanently add weight to a manufactured wheel, will the next stop on this slippery slope be to allow someone to permanently remove weight from a manufactured wheel???

Hope not...let's be vewy careful.

PS- Is the minority vote now winning the poll? :lol:

Jeremy Gunter
06-12-2009, 01:24 AM
Soooooo....just playing devils advocate.

If we're looking to allow someone to permanently add weight to a manufactured wheel, will the next stop on this slippery slope be to allow someone to permanently remove weight from a manufactured wheel???

Hope not...let's be vewy careful.

Custom wheels are allowed.... :wink:

AI#97
06-12-2009, 08:46 AM
so is the current rules set based on a theoretical OEM wheel that doesn't exist or was it just to copy the AI ruleset to make an easy transition up to AI?

there really aren't that many 17x9.5 wheels even made, let alone a 17x9 wheel that weighs 18 lbs.... Sounds more like someone just pulled a number out of thin air.

Apparently those forgelines are little more expensive than $2000 for a set! :shock: