RP Random Dyno Recert Results

[Todd Covini]

As you know, Team Pedersen/Marvel was the lucky winner in last weekend's random drawing for the Round 4 dyno recertification. The Top 5 cars from both AI & CMC weekend races were eligible for the random drawing. Following Chris Marvel's win on Sunday, his hood was sealed and the car required to report to the dyno.

This morning, I witnessed the recertification at Houston Performance and am happy to report that the car was found to be within limits.

Per the AI rules, the highest reading for HP and TQ was used after 3 pulls in succession. In the interest of full disclosure, here are the results:

321.5 HP (Pull #2)
325.8 TQ (Pull #1)

Accordingly, his minimum weight requirements are:
321.5 HP X 9.5= 3054
325.8 TQ X 9.0= 2932

Minimim weight requirement for Team Pedersen/Marvel is now 3054...post-race the car weighed 3108. Unless performance changes are made and a new dyno sheet presented, Team Pedersen/Marvel now has a 321.8/325.8/3054 official dyno decal.

The inspection was conducted on a Dynojet 248c, in SAE Smoothing 5, on software version 6.03. These recert pulls were ~10 HP/TQ greater than his official dyno decal and further stress the need to provide for ample cushion to accomodate for dyno & scale variance between events.

Great job to our random dyno recert winners Team Pedersen/Marvel, Eric Varner and Todd Covini for staying within the limits and winning races thus far in the season! Who will be the next random dyno recertification winner??? Stay tuned and see you at Hallett!!!

-=- Todd

[Mike Bell]

Todd et al:

Is there any possible way to get an official dyno selected in the Austin, Houston and DFW areas? (I'm just asking, the answer could be that it is not practical or possible.) This dyno variation thing is pretty difficult for me to grasp but if the condition exists can/should we make an effort to find dyno's that all seem to measure close to one another and use those exclusively? Perhaps we could use some of the AI/CMC funds on that effort since the random compliance checks seem to continue to validate that nobody is "over" the allowed limits.

I dont' care if they all read "low" (but those going to Nationals may care a bunch!) but having something of a yardstick is better than this variation issue IMHO. Seems to me that allowing the use of any dynojet is more cause for concern based upon the results we've seen/heard about thus far. We've built up quite a knowledge base about available dynojets in those metro areas, perhaps we could leverage that in an attempt to do some "dyno testing" using one car? Otherwise, just tell me where AG did his 230/288 pulls and that's where I'll go from now on! :wink:

[CMC17]

I truly doubt anyone will be caught over the limit. The random drawing does not deter those that are inclinded to push the limits. A self re-cert/annual is useless without a director or tech inspector on-site. Numbers can be manipulated at will. For those that are at or over the limit probably aren't worried. The results will be the same regardless which dyno is used. Having a piece of paper that "reads".. "I'm legal" means diddly. There are 101 ways to "fool" themselves, but a true testament to character are those that throw those 101 ways out the window and races without the "extra" power crutch.

But, what do I know.

<edit> Not interested in a pissing match either... just stating the facts. The way it is now.. dyno's are useless.

[Mike Bell]

Look, I'm not interested in a pissing match. I just want a place to go and consistently get numbers that won't get me tossed out or DQ'd plus be on par with my competitors.

Running 230/288 like AG is doing at 3150 min weight is pretty much telling me he's comfortable with the ability to reproduce those numbers when necessary. Doesn't matter if it's reading high or low, as long as it's consistent right?

[RichardP]

Before this gets too out of hand, I guess I should post the actual numbers.

The old numbers:
316.5 HP
320.0 Tq

That's a difference of 5 HP and 5.8Tq. The last dyno that was done was at the track on Saturday morning with a very fresh engine. It was run for the first time on Thursday night and only had the one session on track for break in. It was also heat soaked from being on the track while the recert was done with the car off the trailer.

I just don't see a big dyno variance here and I never have with one of my cars. I expected the numbers to be higher and they were.

Richard Pedersen
#91 LX5.0

[Mike Bell]

RP,

April 06 race report has your numbers as:
Pedersen/Marvel 312 314 2964

Perhaps that's where Todd got the ~10HP?

But the point still remains, until we get a set of dynos that read reasonably close to one another then EV's conclusion above seems more accurate to me than other conclusions. I tune for 230/300 on a dyno that's 3% low while someone else tunes on a dyno that's 3% high, guess who has more power come race day? In CMC I'd say that's worth chasing down.

[Adam Ginsberg]

At this time, selecting an "official dyno" is pretty difficult - shops come and go, dyno's get bought/sold, etc. No promises, but we'll discuss it.

If your hood gets sealed, simply go back to the dyno you were at earlier this year, Mike. That should provide repeatable numbers - although we all realize there is no guarantee.

FWIW, I dyno'd my car at Lou Gigliotti's. We believe his dyno reads a bit on the high side, and that was a good thing, IMO. I'm very comfortable with being able to reproduce that number on another dyno, and I suspect it will probably read lower.

Something else Daron and I do.....is keep the car a bit heavy. We typically come off the track right about ~3200lbs ( a bit more w/Daron in the car...like ~3210-3220 ), giving us a 50-60lb margin. At MSR-H, I came off @ 3185 after the 40min, which is just about right. For a 40min race, I fill the car all the way up, just to play it safe. That, coupled with the cool suit, keeps us where we want to be WRT weight.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Mike - you bring up an important point. It's well within a competitors grasp to "tune" to a specific dyno. However, that could come back and haunt them at some point down the road.

Someone dyno's on a low reading dyno, getting their 230/300, and comes off the scales @ ~3160. That competitor gets sealed, and is sent to a different dyno due to time, location, etc, and blows a 233hp.....now they are underweight, and DQ'd.

My preference is to always run a bit heavy, on the off chance a dyno reads a few HP higher.

[Mike Bell]

My understanding is that the competitor could go back to the dyno of their choosing (or their original dyno shop) for a certification compliance check. That not correct?

[Mike Bell]

Mike - you bring up an important point. It's well within a competitors grasp to "tune" to a specific dyno. However, that could come back and haunt them at some point down the road.

Someone dyno's on a low reading dyno, getting their 230/300, and comes off the scales @ ~3160. That competitor gets sealed, and is sent to a different dyno due to time, location, etc, and blows a 233hp.....now they are underweight, and DQ'd.

My preference is to always run a bit heavy, on the off chance a dyno reads a few HP higher.

It may be that there are too many variables to nail down that last 6% variation (or whatever percentage it turns out to be). I was just hoping that there was a dyno in each metro area where we could duplicate reasonable results to try and minimize the dyno as a possible source of variance.

I too carry extra weight, but at my current power levels it's not that important. As I work towards the competitive power levels I want to make sure of two things:

1.) That I don't go over - ever.

2.) That the numbers my competitors produce are similar.

[GlennCMC70]

I truly doubt anyone will be caught over the limit. The random drawing does not deter those that are inclinded to push the limits. A self re-cert/annual is useless without a director or tech inspector on-site. Numbers can be manipulated at will. For those that are at or over the limit probably aren't worried. The results will be the same regardless which dyno is used. Having a piece of paper that "reads".. "I'm legal" means diddly. There are 101 ways to "fool" themselves, but a true testament to character are those that throw those 101 ways out the window and races without the "extra" power crutch.

But, what do I know.

<edit> Not interested in a pissing match either... just stating the facts. The way it is now.. dyno's are useless.

i'm not sure what your saying here. are you saying that no one here has the integrety to play by the rules, to "do the right thing cause its the right thing to do"?
i commend those who take their car to the dyno mid-year for no other reason than to make sure they are still legal. had i done this last year, i wouldnt have suffered the fate i had. we all know now that the dyno was the cause of my issue. i now run a 4mm smaller restricter than last year and the only difference is the dyno was repaired. i run a smaller restricter than the other 2 LT1 cars in the class. and smaller than the one in the car we just built.
i was starting to worry that if Jeff gets his name drawn he's gonna get busted. only cause of where he dyno'ed, not cause i dont trust him. but once he put his car on the dyno after last event, i have 100% trust in him that he's legal. i even called him and told him that was very admirable of him. i've been on 5 dyno's durring the first 60 days of the year, 4 of them durring the 30 days prior to the season.
i'm not implying that you are accusing myself or Jeff of cheating. only that you are implying that no one here takes any pride in trying to be 100% legal - just as you do.
you are 100% correct that the only 100% perfect and fair way to do this would be to have the same dyno @ every event and have all cars dyno after qualifing and once qual is over, all cars are kept in impound and not to be touched till after the race.
but you and me both know 5-10 hp is not gonna be the difference in a win or loss. if it was, a SPEC Miata would not run faster than us @ MSR-C. its more about set-up and driver @ that power difference.
i'm sure we are all here in part due to the desire to race on a level playing field. i for one would not want to be the one who violates that desire or trust (even though it seems i have last year).

[CMC17]

Don't mind me.. I'm just pissed off and grumpy today. I'm sure if anyone isn't following the rules, they will post here and come clean. If no one posts, then we can all be assured that everyone is 100% legal and leave it as that.

[Todd Covini]

Hope you feel better Eric! :D

Mike and all...we can certainly name a "preferred" dyno location in Houston, Austin and Dallas to minimize the # of variables. However, by keeping things open it gives people the flexibility they need if there is a local Dynojet in their hometown. (Remember, not everyone is a top 5 car however, everyone must come to the track with a Dyno sheet.)

Here in Houston, we've tried to run everything at Horsepower Engineering however, as you know, they had problems at our annual dyno and they had problems this past weekend, so it was nice to have the flexibility to go to Fastlane or Houston Performance.

As you stated, if there isn't a trackside dyno, sealed hood folks generally have a choice of where to go and the natural decision would be back to where you got your original. However, if there is a trackside dyno, that'll be the official dyno for the weekend. No choice if there is one right there.

As everyone stated, generally, vehicle weight is what is supposed to make up for the dyno variance in HP/TQ. In CMC...the power limit is 230/300, but there is an allowance for +7 HP & TQ. In AI, since we are using the highest power reading of the 3, you really have to be cutting it right down to the limit on weight AND read much higher on the re-dyno to run into trouble.

Anyway...some minor variance is expected and I think folks can manage that accordingly.

Should we name Top 3 Preferred AI/CMC dyno locations in each of the cities just to limit our location variables?? (Not mandatory...just suggested dynos for knowledge base reasons)

i.e.- (just a suggestion)

Houston-
1) Horsepower Engineering
2) Houston Performance
3) Fastlane

Dallas-
1) MSR Cresson
2) LG Motorsports
3) Kwik Kar

Austin-
1)
2)
3)

[jeffburch]

I’m leaving this forum, see you all in OK.










NOT!
My car just has a vacuum leak. (j/k)

All this talk has
:oops: < Me blushing

LOL!


jb

[AI#97]

[quote="Todd Covini"]


Dallas-
1) HPP RACING, Lewisville
2) LG Motorsports
3) 21st century Muscle cars...Carrollton.


HPP is usually very Busy and use the dyno 2 to 3 times a day. It gets a lot of use and is maintained very well as they tune their shop car on it and EVERY car they build gets tuned on it. I will also offer up that Jeremy is the best Tuner for Ford motors of any kind in Texas and that includes Murillo in SA. If we need to work out a deal with them for 3 pulls, let me know and I can contact them about it....I will be there friday to verify that my motor has not "loosened up" and put me over the mark.....to follow the rules. I will warn of this....my aero package was off last weekend which was spilling air around the radiator and the temps were in teh 220's which was pulling over 6 degrees of timing....that's now fixed so expect me to be back on my mark!!! :P

LG's dyno reads within 1hp and 10 tq of the Hpp dyno within 7 days but WAY different weather.

21st Century may have gone under??? but there is also a dyno shop near 121 business and I35 that is available....

Just my $0.02 for the DFW area gang.....given the known issues with the Cresson Dyno, I would suggest we bypass it till we know it's fixed....and I am not talking about the a/f ratio...

[mitchntx]

Dallas-
1) MSR Cresson

3) Kwik Kar


The dyno at Cresson is the one that used to be at Kwik-Kar in Carrollton(?).

I certified last fall after the last race at the Kwik-Kar dyno and rolled the drums before the April event and there was a 8/2 difference. :shock:

Now, I'm 125lbs over minimum weight so I'm still within the margin.

And NASA's never paid for a single pull ... even the one where I had my hood sealed.

I don't have an issue with using the dyno as a tool to get to and maintain HP/TQ ratios. I do have a problem with having a hard line drawn with a measuring device that has such a wide variance.

The hard line should have a variance built in that mimmicks the measuring device.

JMH&WO

[donovan]

Austin-
1) ART - American Racing Technology http://www.americanracingtech.com/
2) Colvin Automotive http://www.colvinautomotive.com/
3) AutoTek

[Todd Covini]

OK...sounds like we have Houston & Austin somewhat taken care of.

1) What is the problem/solution for the MSRC dyno? I heard the A/F wasn't working correctly, but that don't matter for recerts. I heard the drum brake was dragging and that was fixed. What am I missing?

2) I heard Kwik Kar sold that dyno to MSRC because they were building a new in-ground model. Seems as though if that is correct, it may be the dyno-of choice with the latest & greatest equipment.

Pls advise....

-=- Todd

[chicane23]

A few things!

Kwik Kar will not be getting another dyno.

JG will not get on another above ground dyno anytime soon! That one at Cresson is not bolted to the ground very good and scared the S... out of me! Ask Matt W.

The dyno at Cresson needs work and cost me a weekend of racing and about $300.

HPP will be the dyno for JG.

[GlennCMC70]

the Kwik Kar no longer has a dyno, its now @ MSR-C.
there is RPM in Lewisville (matt mentioned them @ 121/I-35). SpeedTeck in Ft. Worth, no others jump out @ me.

[Mike Bell]

Great discussion but I think one of my points is getting missed or muddied in here:

We need to check between the dyno's in the 3 metro areas for "variations". What good is it to have a dyno on the list in Houston that is 3% high when a dyno on the list in DFW is 3% low or vice versa or some combo of the possible combinations?

I think we tried to do this with the MSRC dyno back in Feb (or March?) when we put TC's car on the dyno, but it read so low that I think we all felt the dyno was not accurate or running properly or both?

Pick a car (I suggest using a director's car as they are most likely to make most events and are the one's helping us through our dyno fog) and dyno it at one of the "preferred" locations in the three areas, see how they vary or IF they vary or to what degree they vary. I think that is a better use of our AI/CMC funds right now since the "random" dyno checks don't seem to be catching anyone over the limits allowed in the rules.

That way when I line up against a competitor who has 230/288 and I have say 227/285 (fantasy but stay with me here) I have some confidence that those numbers actually mean that we are closely matched in the motor department rather than who dyno'd where on what day and the numbers mean very little to nothing - which is what I think EV was driving at with his post earlier in the thread.

[MikeP99Z]

Alamo Autosports in Arlington has a 248c - and I dyno'd almost identical numbers between LG's and Alamo's dyno last year.

[GlennCMC70]

i'll address your 6% variance issue and lets all see what we all think of it.
Dyno Jet will tell you their dynos are repetable down to 1% on the same dyno. i'll accept that any dyno could be 3% off ( +/- ) calibrated @ any given time. so your 6% variance will get you a 216 hp minimum and a 244 hp maximum under worst case conditions while shooting for 230 hp. thats a 30 hp possible max difference. the most i have ever heard of between two dynos is about 10 hp. that puts the one @ +5 hp and the other @ -5 hp. i still believe that 10-15 hp is not going to be the difference between winning and loosing. 30 hp will contribute, but its unlikely that size of a deviation would be present.
so w/ a maximum of 30 hp between two cars established, we can move to how would that factor. how many AI cars are running slower than 1:49.6xx @ MSR-H? of those cars, how many are @ 230hp? 250 hp? 270 hp? i dont know all the AI hp #'s for the AI class, but most of those guys are running a 1:46.xxx to a 1:??.xxx on a 2.7 mile track w/ about 300 hp, right?
i think i have more HP/TQ than anyone in class. w/ 229.5hp and 297 tq, i'm up there. i didnt pull anyone down the straights this past weekend. not a single person.
lets keep this going.

[mitchntx]

Can we also factor in the scales?

Remember last year at Hallett, everyone was seeing an extra 30lbs of weight and at MSR-C in April, it was giving data that appeared to be 15-20 low. That is a 40lb swing ...

Take the 1% variance the Dynojet says is acceptable and a 40lb swing low and that could cause, an otherwise 100% legal car to be DQed on nothing more than varieinces of the measuring devices ...

I'm not advocating no dyno certs. But holding precise numbers using an imprecise tool is looking for angst.

[jeffburch]

Can we also factor in the scales?

Remember last year at Hallett, everyone was seeing an extra 30lbs of weight and at MSR-C in April, it was giving data that appeared to be 15-20 low. That is a 40lb swing ...

Take the 1% variance the Dynojet says is acceptable and a 40lb swing low and that could cause, an otherwise 100% legal car to be DQed on nothing more than varieinces of the measuring devices ...

I'm not advocating no dyno certs. But holding precise numbers using an imprecise tool is looking for angst.

BINGO!

jb

[AI#97]

I think Glenn is hitting it right on the nose....There are several AI cars with a lot more HP but similar torque and weight as the CMC cars.....this you will probably find is a misnomer given that the average AI car makes the power in the 3500-6000 rpm range and the CMC cars are in the 1500-5000 range. Show me the torque for both cars at 3500 and you will find it's likely the same or the CMC car is HIGHER!

I know that I have 100 more rwhp than Nick Runyon's CMC car but I'll be damned if it ain't a good drag race for us coming out of most corners. At the first event in Cresson when I Scott Smith and I were running to LB, it was a good drag race and his car was only running on 7 cylinders!

So, Glenn's comments about driver, car prep and maybe even tire age are going to have more effect on the competition than just a few HP is probably accurate. I had this conversation with Donovan this last event that I think the reason my cars is doing well is because it was fresh with new shocks, new tires, new brakes new everything.....driver ability is yet to be determined, but a fresh race car goes a long way to being competitive.

If 10 hp were this influential, then the racing in CMC wouldn't be this close! Buy seat time, not HP.......

[Todd Covini]

Can we also factor in the scales?

Remember last year at Hallett, everyone was seeing an extra 30lbs of weight and at MSR-C in April, it was giving data that appeared to be 15-20 low. That is a 40lb swing ...

Take the 1% variance the Dynojet says is acceptable and a 40lb swing low and that could cause, an otherwise 100% legal car to be DQed on nothing more than varieinces of the measuring devices ...

I'm not advocating no dyno certs. But holding precise numbers using an imprecise tool is looking for angst.

BINGO!

jb

Ohhh...I love that song...B-I-N-G-O....B-I-N-G-O......B-I-N-G-O, and Bingo was his Name-oh! :D

OK...I've heard this discussion once or twice in the past 10 years. Let's keep the creative juices flowing....

So what's the reasonable solution???

CMC generally has a limit of 230/300/3150.
AI has a weight to power ratio limitation.

How should we measure that???
I'm all ears...if there is a better way to skin this cat, let us know!

-=- T

PS- No-one says we have to be right at the limit of HP or Weight....but the rules say we can't be over.

[Todd Covini]

So what's the reasonable solution???
++++++++++++++

OK...I'll start things off.
Howsabout...We use our AI/CMC funds to purchase one of these:

http://www.gtechpro.com/

and then Adam or I get to jump in your driver's seat, lick the suction cup, stick one of those babies on the windshield and mash the throttle for a run down the front straight! Whatdyasay??? 8)

(It's been done before...but people seem to like the dyno route a little better.)

-=- T

[David Love AI27]

how many AI cars are running slower than 1:49.6xx @ MSR-H? of those cars, how many are @ 230hp? 250 hp? 270 hp? i dont know all the AI hp #'s for the AI class, but most of those guys are running a 1:46.xxx to a 1:??.xxx on a 2.7 mile track w/ about 300 hp, right?

ME! 1.52s... 290s hp w/310s1 tq most AIs are over 300 in both carrying 3300 lbs I'm over 11 to 1 in HP and 10.5 to 1 in torque.... most of the CMC cars have me beat... think I'll detune my car...

[David Love AI27]

Can we also factor in the scales?

Remember last year at Hallett, everyone was seeing an extra 30lbs of weight and at MSR-C in April, it was giving data that appeared to be 15-20 low. That is a 40lb swing ...

Take the 1% variance the Dynojet says is acceptable and a 40lb swing low and that could cause, an otherwise 100% legal car to be DQed on nothing more than varieinces of the measuring devices ...

I'm not advocating no dyno certs. But holding precise numbers using an imprecise tool is looking for angst.

How about this... if you are 7% over your combined hp/weight then you loose ALL points up untill the time you are found to be over... if you are 3-7% over you run the rest of the season with 100 lbs of balast (over your min. weight), 0-3% 50 lbs for the rest of the season.

[GlennCMC70]

forget the issue w/ the scales. unlike dyno's, we all are subject to the same scales durring the same time period. we all get the same + or - error @ the same time.

[mitchntx]

True.

But if the weekend that the scales are -40 variance, a person is tagged for recert, that 50lb pad everyone says run is shrunk to almost nothing.

And then the dyno reads that 1% high ...

You're toast.

[donovan]

The scales are less accurate than any dynos I have been on...
My car has repeated numbers on three different dynos.

but, without changing anything on my car it was swelled about 50lbs over the last five events...yup, I have gained weight on the car somewhere.

Has anyone with scales check their car before an event and then re-scale at the event?

Last season I was consistantly at 3150-3160 after our 20 minute races... this year I have been 3190-3210... after the last 40 minute race that I started with 3/4 tank I was ~3140.

[Mike Bell]

David,

That's good info on both subjects (not that I wanted to discuss scales in this thread lol). What three dynos were you able to repeat your numbers on and were all three exactly the same? Sure seems that some other dynos are way off then.

On the scales, as long as the reading is repeatable then it is like the dyno, it's just reading high but it is consistently high so we can count on it and race accordingly.

[mitchntx]

On CMC #8 before the April race, PST's scales had the car 80lbs lighter than what NASA's scales said it weighed.

David ... you got exactly the same numbers on 3 different dynos?

Now that's a dyno pool I would like to have access to. If this were the norm, I wouldn't be in the conversation.

But like I said earlier, I'm carrying around an extra 100lbs+ to have a pad for the pad.

[Mike Bell]

So what's the reasonable solution???
++++++++++++++

OK...I'll start things off.
Howsabout...We use our AI/CMC funds to purchase one of these:

http://www.gtechpro.com/

and then Adam or I get to jump in your driver's seat, lick the suction cup, stick one of those babies on the windshield and mash the throttle for a run down the front straight! Whatdyasay??? 8)

(It's been done before...but people seem to like the dyno route a little better.)

-=- T

Todd, call me later today, I've got a gtechpro here at the house, you can have mine gratis if used for this purpose. :lol:

How about we take your Focus on a trip around the state doing some dyno pulls? Or better yet, I'll rent a V6 mustang for a week and hit Austin, DFW, and Houston dyno's over a 2-3 day period doing nothing but dyno pulls with it and see if we can come up with a list of 3 dyno sites in each of those 3 metro areas where the numbers are similar?

Then we could use the gtechpro on the V6 Mustang to find out how "accurate" that device is for measuring HP lol. I just happen to need to go to Austin this week or next on business.............. :wink:

[michaelmosty]

The scales are less accurate than any dynos I have been on...
My car has repeated numbers on three different dynos.

but, without changing anything on my car it was swelled about 50lbs over the last five events...yup, I have gained weight on the car somewhere.

Has anyone with scales check their car before an event and then re-scale at the event?

Last season I was consistantly at 3150-3160 after our 20 minute races... this year I have been 3190-3210... after the last 40 minute race that I started with 3/4 tank I was ~3140.
The scales have been dead on the entire year w/ my car. I HOWEVER HAVE NO INPUT FROM ROUND 2. In round 1, 3, and 4 my car came off track after the 20 min. race around 3165 (lowest being 3161 and highest being 3172).

[AI#97]

The scales are less accurate than any dynos I have been on...
My car has repeated numbers on three different dynos.

but, without changing anything on my car it was swelled about 50lbs over the last five events...yup, I have gained weight on the car somewhere.

Has anyone with scales check their car before an event and then re-scale at the event?

Last season I was consistantly at 3150-3160 after our 20 minute races... this year I have been 3190-3210... after the last 40 minute race that I started with 3/4 tank I was ~3140.

Experiencing the same thing with my car David....first race of the year came off after 20 minute race at 317X....I know for a fact I have dropped 40 lbs off the car and still reading 3180 post race. Just did lexan this weekend which I weighed the glass compared to lexan last night and it was 32 pounds less, 1 pound in eronious interior fasteners no longer needed and about 4 pounds in steel I cut out of the car.....so, I am guessing the NASA scales will read well over 3200 after the next race... :roll:

As for the dyno accuracy, dyno your car, take that number and make sure you are 20 lbs over minimum, carry 50 lbs in ballast in the trailer if needed and play the gamble.

Only other solution I can offer is that if you dyno at the annual, do nothing to the car, dyno again mid year after getting sealed and dyno MORE, then maybe you lose half of your points instead of ALL of them....However, that is not what the rules state.

This is racing guys and if you want accuracy to the 10th decimal point, it just isn't going to happen. If you don't want to live and die by the dyno or scales....then run AIX, they could use the car count.... :P

I know, the f'n rookie needs to shut up now......

[chicane23]

Yea, would you please hush! :shock:

BTW, 20 lbs is only like 2.11 rwhp and 2.2 rwtq. You better have a bit more cushion. :idea:

[Todd Covini]

I know, the f'n rookie needs to shut up now......

Actually...you're coming around just nicely, there Matt!!! :lol:

You've been spot-on in the last few posts I've seen. A touch of tone...and a smidge of sarcasm, but overall, I'd give you an 8.5 for accuracy!

-=- T

[donovan]

My history of repeating numbers on dyno.

Engine combo #1 on my AI car was dyno'd at AutoTek and then three months later at Colvin Automotive. The HP was 244/247 the TQ was 298/300.

Engine Combo #2 was dyno'd at Colvin and then at ART about six months later. The HP was 265/266 and the TQ was 285/285.

Later I did some changes and dyno'd the car again at Colvin at 277hp/300tq... I made some more changes but should not have boosted the numbers and sure enough at ART I was 276hp/299tq.

The last two runs I did at ART with the current set up my car is 295hp 315tq and four months apart it layed down the same numbers on the same dyno.

All of this if over a three year period... I have yet to dyno in Dallas or Houston, as soon as I get the change I will let everyone one the results.

Oh, and the scales have been consistant this year... just heavy from last year.

David D.

[mitchntx]

the scales have been consistant this year... just heavy from last year.

David D.

Thanks for posting that info. it is encouraging ....

As for the scales ...

In April, CMC #8 required 140# of ballast to make 3230 with Mike Patterson at the helm.

In May, we removed all ballast and hand held fire extinguisher, added a Halon fire system, installed a cool suit and put Steve Mulder behind the wheel. The car weighed 3250.

There is a 50# difference in driver weight. So, I guess that is one heavy cool suit!

It's puzzling ...

[Mike Bell]

David,

Thanks for sharing that info. Sounds to me like the results are repeatable and consistent on the dyno. Couple that with the info RP gave about why his numbers changed and I feel better about the dynos we have available. I guess one or two dyno's out there may be out of whack but overall it isn't a huge mess.

[donovan]

Maybe we should put something in about a protest of the dyno...

I'm not sure what the answer is...

I really don't think there is a good answer... other than treating the trackside dynos just like the scale... you all weigh before the event to add ballast... maybe its time to start dyno's as well if you are that close.

Just a thought

[AI#97]

I know, the f'n rookie needs to shut up now......

Actually...you're coming around just nicely, there Matt!!! :lol:

You've been spot-on in the last few posts I've seen. A touch of tone...and a smidge of sarcasm, but overall, I'd give you an 8.5 for accuracy!

-=- T

Funny, other than the name calling and tantrum about someone changing my signature, I don't think I have changed at all......? :?

Maybe you are all just coming around to MY way of thinking?!!! :shock:

[michaelmosty]

[/quote]
Maybe you are all just coming around to MY way of thinking?!!! :shock:[/quote]

Oh no, we're all doomed!! :shock: :wink:

[mitchntx]

Funny, other than the name calling and tantrum about someone changing my signature, I don't think I have changed at all......? :?

Maybe you are all just coming around to MY way of thinking?!!! :shock:

And your way of thinking really doesn't differ too much from mine.

However, you do drive a Ford, so your opinion garners more credibility.

:twisted: