Roll cage size vs weight

[Alien]

15.6.18 Roll Cage Tubing Sizes
For the purposes of determining roll bar tubing sizes, vehicle weight is as raced, but
without fuel and driver.

2501 - 3000 lbs.
1.750” x 0.095” Chrome-moly / Seamless mild steel (DOM)

3001 - 4000 lbs.
1.750” x .120” Chrome-moly / Seamless mild steel (DOM)


Two questions, one I think is obvious. This rule states as raced w/o fuel and driver. Am I correct in assuming the dry weight includes cool suit cooler, cameras, ballast etc?

Say you built a third gen whose dry weight is 2990, (add driver and fuel to get to 3150) and used the 1.75 x .095. All is legal in 2008.

CMC rules now change to 3200 minimun. You add 50lbs ballast. So now, dry, the car weighs 3040. Is the car now illegal per the CCR or is the grandfather clause understood?

*edit* I'm pretty sure I read an ASedan rule that stated that their cars could use the sub-3000lbs sizes regardless of actual weight.

[GlennCMC70]

i would read "as raced" as all the parts required for a race and not all the add on stuff like cool suits and ballast.
for instance, its got to have legal weight wheels, complete motor that runs.

i have never seen a car checked for compliance to this rule.

[Al Fernandez]

While I have never seen a car be specifically checked for this either, I would not assume "as raced" means anything other than everything the car rolls off the track with other than driver and fuel. In other words, I would include things like ballast and your cool suit. So there you have it, two people opining, two opinions.

I'll ask NASA for their definition since this is a CCR item and really their opinion is the only one that matters.

[AI#97]

i would read "as raced" as all the parts required for a race and not all the add on stuff like cool suits and ballast.
for instance, its got to have legal weight wheels, complete motor that runs.

i have never seen a car checked for compliance to this rule.

Mine was checked at the dyno day at lou's in 2006 when I got my book... don't say "Never".... you were there too!

[RichardP]

Mine was checked at the dyno day at lou's in 2006 when I got my book... don't say "Never".... you were there too!


But then it would have been checked with Lou's scales and not the official NASA scales... :roll:


My opinion is that the base weight is without ballast. Ballast is tuning that, among other things, is based on driver weight. If you put a smaller driver in (or the driver looses weight), you need more ballast.

If ballast were part of the base weight, you could easily get into a situation where a car was only legal for fat people. Skinny people with ballast not allowed...

Same thing with the power to weight ratio in AI. Ooops, car made too much power. I need to add ballast to make it legal but adding ballast would make the cage illegal because of base weight???

Cool suit? Really??? Do you really want a situation where a car would be legal without a cool suit but illegally over weight with it??? Isn't that realistically part of the driver weight?


Richard P.

[GlennCMC70]

i would read "as raced" as all the parts required for a race and not all the add on stuff like cool suits and ballast.
for instance, its got to have legal weight wheels, complete motor that runs.

i have never seen a car checked for compliance to this rule.

Mine was checked at the dyno day at lou's in 2006 when I got my book... don't say "Never".... you were there too!

really? they took all the fuel out of your car? and in 2006, i was just another racer. your AI car was not on my radar. sorry to reduce your head size one notch.

[mitchntx]

I can see both sides.

But the reason for a cage and its strength is to support the weight.

If it's below 3K and you use .095 tube and then add 600lbs of ballast, ducts, cool suit, ballast, fuel, accusump, driver ...

Would that create a safety issue?

[Al Fernandez]

You know, the whole Glenn Vs Matt feud is getting old :roll:

You could argue right/wrong many ways since "as raced" is not explicitly defined. My point was not to say "this is the best definition" rather to point out that everyone has an opinion and only NASA's is the one that matters since that is the one that will be used when it comes to enforcing.

[Alien]

I can see both sides, which is why the question was posted in the first place.

Wasn't trying to cause trouble (I swear!), it's just in rereading the rules like a good boy should, this is the only one that I'm not sure my car follows. I come off track at 3220 with maybe 5 gal fuel. I weight 165 (havn't weighed with full gear on) so I think I'm right around the 3000lb mark. Cage is a mix of .120 (main hoop and diag, down bars, and driver dr bars) and .095.

The change in min wt from 3150 to 3200 doesn't really affect me, but I can see how it could affect others with regards to this rule.

I understand that it is very unlikely that this will ever be checked, but it's one of those things that, should it ever come time to sell the car, it would be nice to inform the buyer of anything that doesn't fit the rules.

[AI#97]

Glenn/Richard. My point was the tubing thickness was checked and that Glenn was within fifty feet of the car taking up space... Not that he wasn't paying attn. Car was not scaled however I was asked what it weighed... Which at the time was a guess.


Nothing to see here and I was not/am notcurrently busting Glenna balls.

[GlennCMC70]

Glenn/Richard. My point was the tubing thickness was checked and that Glenn was within fifty feet of the car taking up space... Not that he wasn't paying attn. Car was not scaled however I was asked what it weighed... Which at the time was a guess.


Nothing to see here and I was not/am notcurrently busting Glenna balls.

why measure the tube if your gonna guess at the weight? why not just guess at the whole thing?
my point still stands, i've never seen this checked.

[michaelmosty]

Glenn/Richard. My point was the tubing thickness was checked and that Glenn was within fifty feet of the car taking up space... Not that he wasn't paying attn. Car was not scaled however I was asked what it weighed... Which at the time was a guess.


Nothing to see here and I was not/am notcurrently busting Glenna balls.


my point still stands, i've never seen this checked.
No kidding, I have never had any portion of my cage checked and don't even have a roll bar #.

[Wirtz]

:?: What's on your log book?

[Hood]

No kidding, I have never had any portion of my cage checked and don't even have a roll bar #.

Well... not until now. :D

Each car will be different with different drivers. If it is under 3000 lbs without driver and fuel then you can use .095 1.75" or .120 1.5" CM or DOM. I suggest that all you skinny guys start eatin' more to get your dry weight down...

[michaelmosty]

:?: What's on your log book?
#__________

[AI#97]

why measure the tube if your gonna guess at the weight? why not just guess at the whole thing?
my point still stands, i've never seen this checked.

The guess was plus or minus 50lbs so it was no big deal.

I will say this much, I am damn glad you and mitch don't run this series... If you did, nobody would ever see the track. :roll:

Michael's blank number is interesting! :lol:

[GlennCMC70]

why measure the tube if your gonna guess at the weight? why not just guess at the whole thing?
my point still stands, i've never seen this checked.

The guess was plus or minus 50lbs so it was no big deal.

I will say this much, I am damn glad you and mitch don't run this series... If you did, nobody would ever see the track. :roll:

Michael's blank number is interesting! :lol:

care to explan what you mean by the comment about me and Mitch?

as for MM's logbook, way before my time.

[AI#97]

care to explan what you mean by the comment about me and Mitch?

as for MM's logbook, way before my time.

Sure! You argue too damn much about the details and nobody would make it out of tech. Too many damn "what if's". We get it, you guys have your racing patchs and and know your shit. BFD. Let's race and have fun damnit! If a car is 40lbs over weight for a given cage tube, who cares. Apparently the only people it matters to are you two....

Relax and chill dude!!! :roll:

[GlennCMC70]

care to explan what you mean by the comment about me and Mitch?

as for MM's logbook, way before my time.

Sure! You argue too damn much about the details and nobody would make it out of tech. Too many damn "what if's". We get it, you guys have your racing patchs and and know your shit. BFD. Let's race and have fun damnit! If a car is 40lbs over weight for a given cage tube, who cares. Apparently the only people it matters to are you two....

Relax and chill dude!!! :roll:

wow, you got some creative reading skill's. you should go back and read my posts again. you lump me and Mitch in the same boat and we dont even agree w/ one another.
and ask around, i'm pretty sure me and Al have let plenty of folks on track who were not 100% legal. as for Mitch, he will let anyone on track.

[mitchntx]

How did I get drug into this?

[GlennCMC70]

How did I get drug into this?
its Matt's fault, like it always is.

[michaelmosty]

http://www.toplessrobot.com/darth-kitty.jpg

[mitchntx]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[AllZWay]

Just another data point to this silly arguement.. I was told I could just stamp my own roll cage, but I don't own stamps.

[AI#97]

[
wow, you got some creative reading skill's. you should go back and read my posts again. you lump me and Mitch in the same boat and we dont even agree w/ one another. and ask around, i'm pretty sure me and Al have let plenty of folks on track who were not 100% legal. as for Mitch, he will let anyone on track.

thank you for making my point....my comprehension is just fine!

Where my mistake was made was getting into another mindless rules debate with the two of you.... :roll:

[GlennCMC70]

the debate was not over rules, but rather you pointing out i saw something that never happened.

it's OK, you can admitt you were wrong.

[mitchntx]

How did I get drug into this?

[Rob Liebbe]

My logbook has a cage number, it was generated by SCCA when the car ran in SSGT with the previous owner. I believe that it is etched in the rollbar. Y'all are out of compliance.

[AI#97]

the debate was not over rules, but rather you pointing out i saw something that never happened.

it's OK, you can admitt you were wrong. Something you will never do so what is your point.

I merely said that you were there Glenn...not that you weren't doing your job....like you admitted above! ;) Put down the conspiracy crack pipe.

Have things in this area been lax? You bet! Is it anyone's fault other than who is issuing log books...? Maybe?

Point being that there needs to be a clearly defined answer as to what "as raced dry weight" does and does not include, and then a review of how we are issuing log books when a new car/cage are brought to the table. For instance, was Jerry required to get a new log book when he redid the cage in his car?! It's called ambiquity and to date, no one has cared to ask the question as it isn't enforced very well...

Al is on the right track to get the clarification, but I would venture to say, if you have a car with a valid log book as of today, you are legal unless it has something to do with the new requirements for Door bars on the driver side as that specifically was to update some grandfathered SCCA approved cars.

[Todd Covini]

Be nice, you two.
Don't start slinging mud and getting it on everyone.
Cages are checked upon issuing a logbook, and again during annuals.
Diameter & thickness is far more important to notate in the logbook than stamping a cage #.