Special request - Dyno File for 2010.

[GlennCMC70]

How many of you would be willing to take a USB drive w/ you to the dyno and copy and send me the "Dynojet WinPeP 7 Run File" for your official 2010 dyno?

what i want to do is take the best file from each platform and overlay them all to the same graph. this will allow us all to get a good visual of what each platform looks like.

if you cant get a digital copy, ask to have them do this:
File
Export Data
Preview
Print or Save to File

the Dynojet software is free from the dynojet site.
i can email you a file of my own if you need one.

[BlueFirePony]

I'd be fine with that.

[michaelmosty]

Will do, but what is a USB drive?

[marshall_mosty]

Will do, but what is a USB drive?I think he meant a USB "jump" drive... But who knows, there may be some new "bLiNg" hardware I'm not aware of.

8)

[Todd Covini]

I think he's avoiding the term "Thumb Drive" because he's worried about where that might have to be inserted to get the data.

[jeffburch]

In the big city I heard the term dongle.
I dont even wanna know about that one.

jb

[Al Fernandez]

I think that is a great suggestion. Exporting to a jump drive, or even to paper (the dyno system then prints a table of the data) will enable us to do better data analysis. Of course we can do this using the graphs you guys already submit, but it is a royal PITA and much less accurate.

[Fbody383]

I'm in... and then make the all the graphs available without tying them to their particular car.

Of course, my 211 is easy to spot.

[BryanL]

I agree that this is a great idea. I suggest a database be put on the national website showing everyones dyno graph. I think this would be beneficial for the series. Showing prospective racers how close the dyno graphs are would show the platform parity.

I have already sent Glenn my 40 runs from last year. Trying to find the files for this year.

[GlennCMC70]

as glad as i am to see you guys here (those who have posted) support this, you wouldnt in a million years quess how much resistance i'm getting from a few here and a few CMC Regional Directors.
CMC Texas has always been a shinning example of sportsmanship. this is another tool that will keep us and the rest of the country on a level playing field.
since i dont think i'll get much support for this from the other regions, i'll make due w/ what i can get from you folks here.

PS - i tried to attach a file to this thread and the site will not accept that type of file extension. i currently have 24 of my own, some at CMC power and some w/ no restriction.

[ShadowBolt]

You can have all my files. I think this is a good idea.


JJ

[mitchntx]

I'm out.

All my competitors need to know is if I'm legal.

The health of my motor as outlined on a dyno sheet will let my competitors know just how hard he can run me and then possibly lead to some high risk, on track maneuvers.

Raise your hands ... how many here have heard/read about Francis' down on power woes and made a passing decision based upon that?

[GlennCMC70]

when i pass a car, the last thing that is a factor is "what was his dyno numbers?"
at this point i dont know who is making what and i have all of the dyno sheets now.
whether or not i pass a car is only based upon what i see on track and nothing more.

all i'm asking for is a digital copy of what you are already giving me. right now, i have to lay one sheet of paper over another to see if things are fair. then its a judgement call due to differing scales of the graph. in digital format i can import the data to the same graph.

if you dont want this stuff made public, i can deal w/ that. but help me ensure the platforms are fair.

[jeffburch]

Let me guess where the resistance is from.
The next step will be a RFID in the driver instead of the car :lol:

[GlennCMC70]

Let me guess where the resistance is from.
The next step will be a RFID in the driver instead of the car :lol:

only for tracking those troublemakers who dont race. :wink:

[David Love AI27]

Let me guess where the resistance is from.
The next step will be a RFID in the driver instead of the car :lol:

only for tracking those troublemakers who dont race. :wink:

LOL.. he is still a majority owner in a race car, for at least another week. :roll: (not to his liking, I'm sure). :(

[mitchntx]

when i pass a car, the last thing that is a factor is "what was his dyno numbers?"


I didn't say you said it out loud in your helmet, but someone who is zealous about that $2 medal will do his homework.

And the data is factored in, conciously or subconciously, while on the track.

Its no different than factoring in those drivers who are more timid than others. As a driver, you realize it on some level and make decisions based upon that realization.

For years, people knew that if they put a fender on me I'd move over. I recall Al saying the same thing.

Knowing a competitors weaknesses and tendencies is part of race craft.

[ShadowBolt]

For years, people knew that if they put a fender on me I'd move over.

That's for damn sure. Mitch will slam the door!

JJ

[mitchntx]

For years, people knew that if they put a fender on me I'd move over.

That's for damn sure. Mitch will slam the door!

JJ

After you get bullied enough, you say enough is enough.




3.9 Dynamometer Certification
All participants who wish to compile season points must submit a certified dynamometer report prior to the start of the race or make arrangements to have a dyno test performed immediately after the race. The dynamometer inspection will consist of two parts, a completed CMC Dyno Spec Sheet and Dyno Sheet Readout Graphs. All pages must be signed and dated by the dynamometer operator performing the tests. These forms must be kept with the vehicle's logbook and be ready to present to any official. The CMC Dyno Spec Sheet includes instructions for performing the official dynamometer inspection, which must be followed in order for the dyno inspection to be valid. The Dyno Spec Sheet is available on the CMC website or from the CMC Chief Director, see section 10.


I suggest this entire section be rewritten.

What is a "Dynamometer report"? That and "Body Contact Report" is the only instance in all the CMC rules that this term is used.

I know what Glenn thinks it is, but the rule explicitly says what has to be turned in ... just a "report".

In fact, the passage goes on to say



These forms must be kept with the vehicle's logbook and be ready to present to any official.


No where does it say the graph HAS to be turned in, just kept with teh logbook. I'm assuming MY dyno graph with MY logbook. The way its written, it could meean Everyone's dyno graph with Glenn's logbook.

Again the ONLY thing in the rules that HAS to be turned in is a "report" and that is undefined.

Also ...



All participants who wish to compile season points


That tells me if I don't care about season points, a dyno isn't necessary.

And that's backed up here ...



3.7 New Drivers/New Model Cars
The CMC Chief Director may allow a new competitor or competitor in a new model car to enter as a “Fun Run” with a car not in complete compliance with CMC Rules. Competitors with non-compliant cars may not collect points.


If dyno graphs are required ... say so
If dyno graphs are required to be submitted to an official ... say so.
If dyno graphs are required to be submitted both in hard copy and electronic form ... say so.

If its not in the rules, don't expect it.

[GlennCMC70]

Sorry, i dont know of any other way of saying it. thats the most absurd thing i've read so far today. there have been plenty of cars on track w/ us all that make less or more power than a CMC car. the power that a car makes (as in peak or the dyno graph) has no factor in my decision to pass them or not. i've passed plenty of AI car w/ a 100hp advantage and i've been passed by miatas w/ a 100+ hp disadvantage.

when i say i dont know each of your dyno numbers, i am 100% positive that is the way i mean it. it is not a factor at all.

but! if you think it is a factor (even subconciously) why allow the directors to be the only ones who see this data? you have to race at least one of them for now and both in the future. why allow us that so called "advantage"? why not level the playing field?
at this point i do not think there is any downside to any of this.

all i'm asking for is a easier way for the directors to do what EVERYONE here wants us to do. keep informed about all platforms and identify unfair advantages one platform has over another.
just today Matt commented that its crazy that it took 2 years to get where we are w/ 3rd gens and CMC-2. it takes time and data collection is key. if we are allowed to compile this data now, before we need it, the reaction is faster when it comes time to use it.
lets say at MSR-C 2010 we as directors agree to look into the LS1 cars to see if they are at a disadvantage w/ regards to power under the curve. the only way to do that is to look at dyno curves. if i have no data, then i have to assume the LS1 drivers are just complaining as each driver does about thier own platform. they may have a valid case, but w/ out data to use, i cant help them. since everyone has already dyno'ed for the year and none of us have the digital files we need to do the compairison, we will now have to wait till the following year to attempt to gather this data in hope of proving/disproving the LS1 drivers claims.

[mitchntx]

Sorry, i dont know of any other way of saying it. thats the most absurd thing i've read so far today.

The day is young ...

Its just as absurd as calling people out for not wanting to comply with your request.

[GlennCMC70]

For years, people knew that if they put a fender on me I'd move over.

That's for damn sure. Mitch will slam the door!

JJ

After you get bullied enough, you say enough is enough.




3.9 Dynamometer Certification
All participants who wish to compile season points must submit a certified dynamometer report prior to the start of the race or make arrangements to have a dyno test performed immediately after the race. The dynamometer inspection will consist of two parts, a completed CMC Dyno Spec Sheet and Dyno Sheet Readout Graphs. All pages must be signed and dated by the dynamometer operator performing the tests. These forms must be kept with the vehicle's logbook and be ready to present to any official. The CMC Dyno Spec Sheet includes instructions for performing the official dynamometer inspection, which must be followed in order for the dyno inspection to be valid. The Dyno Spec Sheet is available on the CMC website or from the CMC Chief Director, see section 10.


I suggest this entire section be rewritten.

What is a "Dynamometer report"? That and "Body Contact Report" is the only instance in all the CMC rules that this term is used.

I know what Glenn thinks it is, but the rule explicitly says what has to be turned in ... just a "report".

In fact, the passage goes on to say



These forms must be kept with the vehicle's logbook and be ready to present to any official.


No where does it say the graph HAS to be turned in, just kept with teh logbook. I'm assuming MY dyno graph with MY logbook. The way its written, it could meean Everyone's dyno graph with Glenn's logbook.

Again the ONLY thing in the rules that HAS to be turned in is a "report" and that is undefined.

Also ...



All participants who wish to compile season points


That tells me if I don't care about season points, a dyno isn't necessary.

And that's backed up here ...



3.7 New Drivers/New Model Cars
The CMC Chief Director may allow a new competitor or competitor in a new model car to enter as a “Fun Run” with a car not in complete compliance with CMC Rules. Competitors with non-compliant cars may not collect points.


If dyno graphs are required ... say so
If dyno graphs are required to be submitted to an official ... say so.
If dyno graphs are required to be submitted both in hard copy and electronic form ... say so.

If its not in the rules, don't expect it.

wow. i'm done w/ responding to you about this.
i am asking for your help. i in no way demanded it. i didnt tell anyone this was a requirement. i ASKED for this info. if you dont want to provide it, dont. but dont ask for us to use this info to help you if your not willing to provide it.

[GlennCMC70]

i didnt call you out, you stood up and raised your hand.

[mitchntx]

you wouldnt in a million years quess how much resistance i'm getting from a few here

You started it ...

I felt as though I, as one of the resistance, needed to explain my POV being as you decided to take it public.

I have been very vocal about this amongst our group, so it wasn't 100% private. But I don't think its appropriate for you, as a director, to condemn my opinion to the world in doing this just to make your life easier.

[Al Fernandez]

Mitch, I envisioned making data available by platform, not by driver name. Would that ease your concern? At that point a racer looking at this data would not know which car is which, but they would know where they stack up in relation to the masses.

[michaelmosty]

Raise your hands ... how many here have heard/read about Francis' down on power woes and made a passing decision based upon that?
Someone could walk over and look at his dyno sticker on the windshield to see the 211 hp and wouldn't even need to look at his graph.

[mitchntx]

Mitch, I envisioned making data available by platform, not by driver name. Would that ease your concern? At that point a racer looking at this data would not know which car is which, but they would know where they stack up in relation to the masses.

OK ... but how does that address the original intent of the directors knowing and no one else?

[mitchntx]

Raise your hands ... how many here have heard/read about Francis' down on power woes and made a passing decision based upon that?
Someone could walk over and look at his dyno sticker on the windshield to see the 211 hp and wouldn't even need to look at his graph.

Exactly ... and that should be it. That's all I or you need to know about David's car.

Its none of our business WHERE it makes 211 or even 259. Then has a limit and that's all me or you need to know.

If it its a table top, then it will show on track. If it bugs you, then submit the protest form and the $50.

David, please understand, I'm not picking you. Merely using your situation as an extreme example to illustrate my points.

[David Love AI27]

Its no different than factoring in those drivers who are more timid than others.

Thanks for not calling me out :shock: :oops: .... LOL

[mitchntx]

Its no different than factoring in those drivers who are more timid than others. As a driver, you realize it on some level and make decisions based upon that realization.

For years, people knew that if they put a fender on me I'd move over.

LOL ... actually, I was referring to myself.

[Fbody383]

Raise your hands ... how many here have heard/read about Francis' down on power woes and made a passing decision based upon that?
Someone could walk over and look at his dyno sticker on the windshield to see the 211 hp and wouldn't even need to look at his graph.


David, please understand, I'm not picking you. Merely using your situation as an extreme example to illustrate my points.
No harm, no foul; I thought it was the car length I gave up on any kind of straight that made passing easy(er).

I hear ya Mitch, but I guess I give more weight to "intent." If the intent jof the rule is that competitors will be notified of each others dyno results, then make the rules clear to that end.

IF, as Mitch shows (pretty clearly in my estimation) the intent is to have a "legal" car, verifiable only to the directors by a dyno pull, then write the rule clearly that way and then the windshield sticker only needs to show minimum weight. Or does it just need to show annual tech?

As long as the car is legal when teched or protested, who needs to know? I think this kind of thinking gets us farther away from the gentlemen racer activity that could hamper post race festivities.

[David Love AI27]

Look... National rules can be ammended for each Region, right? If the regional directors want a copy of ALL the dynos to aid in decision making then so be it, change the Regional rules. I have no problem with that. If the rules says all I have to do is prove my numbers then thats all I'm going to do (call me an asshole, your not the first and I plan to live alot longer so you won't be the last). Either way there is going to be bitching... there always has been, there is right now and it will continue in the future.

Al is already collecting data and I'm sure he is doing it to benefit the series. Add a paragraph, enforce it equally and move on.

[mitchntx]

I think this kind of thinking gets us farther away from the gentlemen racer activity that could hamper post race festivities.

Bing! I think you are on to something ...

In a gentleman's racing world, we should go to the dyno and VERIFY our numbers and that should be good enough.

Nirvana!

http://tonykurtsandy.homestead.com/files/kurt_cobain_with_cat.jpg

[AI#97]

I think this kind of thinking gets us farther away from the gentlemen racer activity that could hamper post race festivities.

Bing! I think you are on to something ...

In a gentleman's racing world, we should go to the dyno and VERIFY our numbers and that should be good enough.

Nirvana!



WHICH dyno?! ;)

[Todd Covini]

I remember a day when there were TWO members of LAW Motorsports who were a PITA. Won't you just drink the kool-aid, Mitch?!?!? :wink:

http://www.acuraworld.com/forums/attachments/f36/26695d1242324922-teenager-impersonates-kool-aid-man-saleen-mustang-kool_aid_man.jpg

[Jeremy Gunter]

Glenn,
A guy with AI/CMC Texas Regional Director in his sig can ask for this information without any argument.

A guy with ..."
CMC #70 4th Gen
2005 5th in season points (Rookie Year)
2006 2nd in season points / 3rd @ Nationals
2007 1st in season points / 3rd @ Nationals
2008 4th in season points / Texas E1 Champ & 3rd Overall / 1st @ Nationals
2009 GRM Calendar Mr. March / TWS 8hr Enduro Overall Win / 1st @ Nationals
Fastest CMC Goober in the World!"...
in his sig is going to get some opposition.

it's not the fact that you are one of our regional leaders... be careful how you approach those you feel are not within the rules...

[Fbody383]

I think this kind of thinking gets us farther away from the gentlemen racer activity that could hamper post race festivities.

Bing! I think you are on to something ...

In a gentleman's racing world, we should go to the dyno and VERIFY our numbers and that should be good enough.

Nirvana!



WHICH dyno?! ;)

I think this kind of thinking gets us farther away from the gentlemen racer activity that could hamper post race festivities.

Is somebody cheating? How much HP or TQ *really* matters? What's the lap time difference in my car between me/Glenn/James/Patterson/MFW driving?

See, I'm too dense to just step away and let all this get flogged by everybody else.

Rewrite the rule to make the intent clear, include language that redacted (car number removed) data/graph will be made available to all participants.

Thrown in $$$ for the Rookie Rebuild Fund.

[AI#97]

Dave, my point was, and still is that the dyno BS is just that, BS. If I dyno on dyno X and you on Y, and it is well known that they both read differently, a director CANNOT tell me which dyno to go to for verification as I have a valid argument I am racing per the dyno I used.

Hence why the west coast guys and others were SHOCKED that we don't have dyno's at our events. My response to them was "it really isn't necessary in Texas"....but don't expect that to last forever as more racers join this group. Besides, we'd rather drink beer and lock people in port-a-johns than load and watch cars on dynos!!! ;)

[David Love AI27]

Hence why the west coast guys and others were SHOCKED that we don't have dyno's at our events.

At Nationals, during my 3rd impound one of the tech guys asked if I had my dyno sheet. I said "yes"... He said "Can I see it?" I said "Sure, I will go and get it after we are finished here" he replyed... wait for it.... wait for it... "You mean you don't have it with you?" :shock: :shock: I said "WHAT?!? WITH ME?!?! I just came off the track. Am I SUPPOSED to have it in the car???".... He said "no, I just you might" :roll:

[AI#97]

Hence why the west coast guys and others were SHOCKED that we don't have dyno's at our events.

At Nationals, during my 3rd impound one of the tech guys asked if I had my dyno sheet. I said "yes"... He said "Can I see it?" I said "Sure, I will go and get it after we are finished here" he replyed... wait for it.... wait for it... "You mean you don't have it with you?" :shock: :shock: I said "WHAT?!? WITH ME?!?! I just came off the track. Am I SUPPOSED to have it in the car???".... He said "no, I just you might" :roll:

technically, we are supposed to have the log book in the car too...and by Mitch's rant, we are supposed to have the dyno sheet in the log book.

So, anyone want to start a discussion about selective rules enforcement and negating enforcing ANY rule?! LOL!!!! Come on Mitch, jump on in!!!! :lol:

[MikeP99Z]

Kool-aid man needs to go.

[donovan]

MMMmmmm, Kool-aid...

[Fbody383]

But the director can seal the hood and have someone meet you for the next dyno also.


Dave, my point was, and still is that the dyno BS is just that, BS.

But at least the dyno BS (Better Situation) keeps us from going the way of Spec Miata or American Sedan in engine costs. Is the dyno variation generally more than what 10-30lbs of ballast would cover?


Besides, we'd rather drink beer and lock people in port-a-johns than load and watch cars on dynos!!! ;)

And push water off the EZ-up BEFORE it breaks...

[mitchntx]

Mike ...

Your car and all your stuff is sitting out by the curb.

[MikeP99Z]

I'm referring to the picture embedded above, not the concept...

[mitchntx]

It's raining ....

[BlueFirePony]

My engine is basically stock and my driving habits are pretty transparent - so is my skill level.
You can pretty much guess my dyno #s right now and figure out where you can pass me without seeing me on track...if it helps move the sport and our series forward I am in.

Now, I am planning to build a new engine starting this winter so all that nicey-nicey might change in 2011 ;)