Old School Iron

[scopx]

Have lurked here for good bit and observed that no 1st generation Iron is used (with one exception.) Have reviewed AI rules and my questions are, are the old cars suspension(s) design so archaic as not to be considered for AI ? or are they getting hard to find? In AIX, could not the allowed suspension changes bring it into more modern realm? My thoughts were on using 67 Mustang donor. Do know I would not be competitive, but would be fun to feel the adrenaline rush.
Thanks in advance for addressing questions. (Am old man with too much time.)
TLS

[marshall_mosty]

TLS,
The old "1st Gen" Mustangs are pretty weak structurally and require quite a bit of shoring up for road race duty. Griggs is one of the only outlets for a decent front/rear suspension setup, but it's ungodly expensive (15-20K just for suspension bits).

Your best bet it to do something newer, as spare parts/body panels are more available in the aftermarket.

Just my opinion. YMMV

[BlueFirePony]

I know Jay and his Camaro kicked my ass all over ECR so its definately possible to run a 1st gen car competitively but that car is on a whole other playing field $ wise.
I'd love to see a whole spectrum of generations out there but I'm with Marshall on this.

[Hood]

I too was on the old school AI band wagon with a 1968 Cougar. I had figured a way to adapt SN95 parts with an LSA conversion and coil-overs for the front-end. All parts with few exception are available from circle track suppliers such as Lefthander Chassis and Coleman Racing. I also had figured out how to use a C4 Corvette rack, aluminum spindles and brakes (Z51 13.5" rotors) with custom control arms from the aforementioned sources. Alterations to the crossmember had to be done in either case to accommodate the rack.
Alas, someone wanted the car more than I did (read that, three times what I paid for it) and it went away. All this stuff is applicable to the Mustang as well. I'd love to build ah old school AIX car one of these days. Just waiting for the $'s to land in my racing budget. If you look at last year's nationals AIX winner, it went to a mega-budget turbo-engined '66 Mustang. Apparently it had enough power to just win drag races between turns :wink: . Could have been good driving too...

[Fbody383]

Your best bet is to do something newer, as spare parts/body panels are more available in the aftermarket.

I appreciate Marshall's honesty and generally agree - for most folks.

But since I don't know you let me say that, if you have a burning deisre to build a 1st gen Pony (hopefully a fastback), then have at it. I'm guessing it won't be as cheap as other routes, but the car will certainly stand out on track.

Regardless of what you end up in welcome, come out and hang with the group.

[gt40]

Whatever happened to the guy who wanted to run a Javelin in AI? I saw a Javelin at ECR but never had a chance to talk to him.

[Rob Liebbe]

Whatever happened to the guy who wanted to run a Javelin in AI? I saw a Javelin at ECR but never had a chance to talk to him.

Ken Caudle is the AMX driver and prospective AMX AI builder. Don't scare him away. It would be cool to see the old iron out there. Todd Covini needs to chime in here as he was planning a 67 Mustang fastback AI build at one time.

[scopx]

Thanks for the prompt reply and forthright comments. I would give my right nut(don't think its working anyway) for a 67 FB. Unfortunately, its just a coupe that I started to redo and the futher I got into it, the worse the sheet metal,floor pans got. So I just pulled power train out and pushed it outside to rust. Now after drooling here for weeks and having rules up in the background to review, am leaning towards possibly doing the AIX thing.
Someone said the unibody/suspension was weak and cost to make it turn would expensive compared to later years. (Sorry. can't go back and thank him while posting.) I did do a time trial once a rough dirt oval track and did notice how "loose" whole thing was.

However, if I do this, it will be on the LO Buck side. Hell, I'm so cheap, am now gathering components to make my own beer.

I failed to pickup in rules that turbos are allowed in AIX. Went back and reread that section. DUH, oldtimers kickin in.That puts another "spin" on it. I love'em.
I think I can make some mods myself to stiffen and upgrade rear suspension as have some welding skills, etc. And few ideas of my own.

Another question that probably should be directed to a Rules type person. As I would have to replace the floor pans anyway, would it be beyond reason to install "sheet metal" of original thickness and location which would be shaped for center tunnel, etc?
And floor pan would be supported on the perimeter by square tubing.

I could not compete you guys in AI class, as do not have the seat time in and "sort out" time in the vehicle. So, if decide to do this, have to go unlimited and just hope to be able to hang and not exchange too much paint.
Any additional comments would be appreciated.
I migrate between NE Tx and Central Tx. And seem to be centrally located to most of the tracks excepting OK. My "barn" is located about 50 miles NW of Tyler.
Thanks
TLS

[AI#97]

floor pans MUST be stock and can only be "clearanced" for exhaust, driveline and suspension clearance. what you described would be illegal in AI and X...

Personally, the dollars and time invested in an old school build would be fruitless unless you go X and build a 500hp motor. I well setup CMC car with 260hp is going to pretty well destroy you unless you put big money into the suspension.

I'd love to build an old school challenger or GT350 clone. However, if you are going to drop 10-15k in building it, you might as well build a nice SN95 CMC/2 or AI car that would be pretty competitive and would have less issue with body panel repair costs going wheel to wheel.

if you have the time, money and will, build the old school car. if you want to race door to door, be competitive and spend less money and get racing faster, build or buy an SN95 or 4th gen camaro.

[Wirtz]

I still have my '71 Firebird Formula I wanted to build into an AI car....

Based on all the feedback in this thread, I think we all need to go make your desired old irons and then duke it out 8)

[AI#97]

I still have my '71 Firebird Formula I wanted to build into an AI car....

Based on all the feedback in this thread, I think we all need to go make your desired old irons and then duke it out 8)

My idea of old iron X car on a budget would be a 68 dart GTS with a built, destroked 340 with about 650 hp... I agree, we should bring back AIV!!!!

[mitchntx]

floor pans MUST be stock and can only be "clearanced" for exhaust, driveline and suspension clearance. what you described would be illegal in AI and X...


CMC
7.5.8 All chassis and structure repair must be done as close as possible to the OEM factory specifications. Besides what is allowed by these rules, no additional chassis/frame strengthening is allowed. All body repairs must maintain OEM stock contours.

AI
7.3 Frame
The entire tub, floorpan, firewall, and frame assemblies including the cowl and windshield frame must remain in the stock position and cannot be relocated. “Cowl” is defined as the metal structure installed by the factory between the firewall and base of the windshield. “Frame” and “framerail” are defined as the parallel boxed metal rails running the length of the car that form the basis of the unibody or frame. “Floorpan” is defined as the sheetmetal forming the floor and trunk floor of the car. Cars may not be
“channeled” to raise the floor within the body or lower the body below the frame rails. The only modifications to these structures allowed will be in the following instances and no secondary purpose for a modification is allowed (i.e. electrical cable passage facilitating suspension clearance). If a modification is not listed below it is specifically not allowed.
a) To facilitate the addition of safety equipment such as subframe connectors and roll cage bracing (i.e. roll cage may extend through the firewall to strut towers);
b) To facilitate plumbing or electrical access. For AIX only, plumbing shall include intercooler or intake piping, but all air intakes must be mounted outside the cockpit.
c) To facilitate transmission fitment or access.
d) For installation of a fuel cell or fuel tank access. S197 chassis Mustangs may relocate the fuel tank from the rear seat stock location to the trunk area behind the rear axle.
e) For exhaust clearance. This does not allow exhaust components to be run through the firewall, which is not allowed.
f) To facilitate installation of and access to ignition and induction components in 4th generation F-body GM vehicles. Allowed modification is restricted to removal or clearancing of the cowl/wiper bucket area. The cowl and firewall must remain otherwise intact.
g) The floorpan may be modified for the purpose of facilitating the installation of a three-link type suspension. Such modification is limited to a hole being cut in the floorpan to allow the “third link” to pass through the floorpan to the attachment point in the cockpit. All components that intrude into the cockpit must be covered.
h) Rear framerails may be “notched” for suspension clearance in AIX only.
i) AIX vehicles may have the rear floorpan between the frame rails removed from the roll cage main hoop rearward, but the frame rails must remain intact and a suitable covering must be in place to provide a bulkhead between the driver compartment and the ground.

From the CCR
27.4.2 Damage
Damage from an incident is limited to the following definition: Any sheet metal, fiberglass, or other body material, deformity significant enough to cause the NASA Officials to enforce the “50/50 rule,” thus requiring repairs. Damage to suspension or other mechanical components are not included in this definition. Damage to plastic or vinyl bumper covers, trim pieces, splitters, marker lights; and marks from tire rubs, are not considered damage for the purposes of this section.



CMC ... as close as possible doesn't explicitly say OEM only.

The AI statute is about ALTERING a car's floor pan, firewall, etc during the build, not repairing damage.

And the CCR defines damage and it's cosmetic appearance quite loosely.


I'd say repairing rust damage in a car using sheet metal is OK as long as it meets the 50/50 rule and you don't alter the pan to accomodate relocating major components.

[AI#97]

floor pans MUST be stock and can only be "clearanced" for exhaust, driveline and suspension clearance. what you described would be illegal in AI and X...


CMC
7.5.8 All chassis and structure repair must be done as close as possible to the OEM factory specifications. Besides what is allowed by these rules, no additional chassis/frame strengthening is allowed. All body repairs must maintain OEM stock contours.

AI
7.3 Frame
The entire tub, floorpan, firewall, and frame assemblies including the cowl and windshield frame must remain in the stock position and cannot be relocated. “Cowl” is defined as the metal structure installed by the factory between the firewall and base of the windshield. “Frame” and “framerail” are defined as the parallel boxed metal rails running the length of the car that form the basis of the unibody or frame. “Floorpan” is defined as the sheetmetal forming the floor and trunk floor of the car. Cars may not be
“channeled” to raise the floor within the body or lower the body below the frame rails. The only modifications to these structures allowed will be in the following instances and no secondary purpose for a modification is allowed (i.e. electrical cable passage facilitating suspension clearance). If a modification is not listed below it is specifically not allowed.
a) To facilitate the addition of safety equipment such as subframe connectors and roll cage bracing (i.e. roll cage may extend through the firewall to strut towers);
b) To facilitate plumbing or electrical access. For AIX only, plumbing shall include intercooler or intake piping, but all air intakes must be mounted outside the cockpit.
c) To facilitate transmission fitment or access.
d) For installation of a fuel cell or fuel tank access. S197 chassis Mustangs may relocate the fuel tank from the rear seat stock location to the trunk area behind the rear axle.
e) For exhaust clearance. This does not allow exhaust components to be run through the firewall, which is not allowed.
f) To facilitate installation of and access to ignition and induction components in 4th generation F-body GM vehicles. Allowed modification is restricted to removal or clearancing of the cowl/wiper bucket area. The cowl and firewall must remain otherwise intact.
g) The floorpan may be modified for the purpose of facilitating the installation of a three-link type suspension. Such modification is limited to a hole being cut in the floorpan to allow the “third link” to pass through the floorpan to the attachment point in the cockpit. All components that intrude into the cockpit must be covered.
h) Rear framerails may be “notched” for suspension clearance in AIX only.
i) AIX vehicles may have the rear floorpan between the frame rails removed from the roll cage main hoop rearward, but the frame rails must remain intact and a suitable covering must be in place to provide a bulkhead between the driver compartment and the ground.

From the CCR
27.4.2 Damage
Damage from an incident is limited to the following definition: Any sheet metal, fiberglass, or other body material, deformity significant enough to cause the NASA Officials to enforce the “50/50 rule,” thus requiring repairs. Damage to suspension or other mechanical components are not included in this definition. Damage to plastic or vinyl bumper covers, trim pieces, splitters, marker lights; and marks from tire rubs, are not considered damage for the purposes of this section.



CMC ... as close as possible doesn't explicitly say OEM only.

The AI statute is about ALTERING a car's floor pan, firewall, etc during the build, not repairing damage.

And the CCR defines damage and it's cosmetic appearance quite loosely.


I'd say repairing rust damage in a car using sheet metal is OK as long as it meets the 50/50 rule and you don't alter the pan to accomodate relocating major components.

the "INTENT" of the AI rule is to not gain any aero dynamic advantages under the car with smooth sheet metal.... atleast that is what my protest form would say! ;)

[mitchntx]

Form and $50 ... :wink:

[marshall_mosty]

Watch out with replacing stock structure, albiet rusted with nothing other than OEM replacement panels. Here is a thread on the national site that pretty much killed this Mustang SEMA car...

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18750&hilit=+firewall

[gt40]

It'd be nice to hear an official response to this, but I figure if one were to install an OEM-type replacement floor in the OEM location, you'd be within the intent of the rule.

[mitchntx]

Watch out with replacing stock structure, albiet rusted with nothing other than OEM replacement panels. Here is a thread on the national site that pretty much killed this Mustang SEMA car...

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18750&hilit=+firewall

I didn't read it close enough to determine if the aluminum covered the steel or replaced it.

But, the way that thread reads is that the STEEL firewall was replaced with an ALUMINUM firewall and yes ... illegal.

The OP in this thread is wanting to replace a rusted stel panel with a steel panel.

The outer shell doesn't have to be OEM, just reasonable facsimiles thereof and pass the 50/50 rule.

Why on earth you guys are fretting about a floor pan is beyond me. But thats what makes AI ... AI!

[Todd Covini]

I gave up on a 10 year dream project of completing my AIX '67 Fastback when I was offered $10k for something that was going to cost me another $30k++ to complete.

Realities of family set in...but the dream never went away.

Today...that $30k would be better spent in a turnkey S197 track car. Spend the garage time tweaking instead of heavy lifting and neglecting the family. Still ooks like the 'ol '67 girl...with all the modern handling conveniences.

I've replaced my old school AI dream with that new school AI dream.

Coming soon to a track near you...

[marshall_mosty]

Watch out with replacing stock structure, albiet rusted with nothing other than OEM replacement panels. Here is a thread on the national site that pretty much killed this Mustang SEMA car...

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18750&hilit=+firewall

I didn't read it close enough to determine if the aluminum covered the steel or replaced it.

But, the way that thread reads is that the STEEL firewall was replaced with an ALUMINUM firewall and yes ... illegal.

The OP in this thread is wanting to replace a rusted stel panel with a steel panel.

The outer shell doesn't have to be OEM, just reasonable facsimiles thereof and pass the 50/50 rule.

Why on earth you guys are fretting about a floor pan is beyond me. But thats what makes AI ... AI!
Mitch,
It's not that we are "fretting about a floor pan". I just wouldn't want the OP to put a bunch of effort into something that was eventually deemed illegal during tech inspection/protest. We are only trying to help mitigate any future issues that may arise.

[mitchntx]

Marshall, believe, I understand what you are trying to prevent.

But in yours and Matt's scenario, if I straddled the curb at T1 at NPR and ripped the floor pan out of my car, I would either have to buy a replacement tub or buy a donor car for it's floor pan.

Forming a piece of sheet steel of similar thickness and weight isn't an option.

Now, ask again ... why are AI costs sky-rocketing?

[AI#97]

Marshall, believe, I understand what you are trying to prevent.

But in yours and Matt's scenario, if I straddled the curb at T1 at NPR and ripped the floor pan out of my car, I would either have to buy a replacement tub or buy a donor car for it's floor pan.

Forming a piece of sheet steel of similar thickness and weight isn't an option.

Now, ask again ... why are AI costs sky-rocketing?

Correct. However, you could replace the panel with one from a mustang if it's cheaper! LOL!!!!

the reason AI costs are skyrocketing is because of people like you Mitch that read between the lines and say "what if" and the fact that many racers have more money than skills. I just LOVE whipping their asses with a garage built car with bolt on parts that have been around for 15 years.

[Todd Covini]

Mustang floor pans are $35.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/GMK-3020-511-64R

While I can appreciate the cost savings of flipping an old stopsign over and welding it in, I don't think the difference of $20 is an example what's driving AI costs up. :roll: :lol:

-=- Todd
National AI Director

[mitchntx]

Unfortunately, its just a coupe that I started to redo and the futher I got into it, the worse the sheet metal,floor pans got. So I just pulled power train out and pushed it outside to rust. Now after drooling here for weeks and having rules up in the background to review, am leaning towards possibly doing the AIX thing.

Thanks
TLS



Mustang floor pans are $35.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/GMK-3020-511-64R


So Todd ... were trying to prove a point to me or help the OP?

[mitchntx]

the reason AI costs are skyrocketing is because of people like you Mitch that read between the lines and say "what if" and the fact that many racers have more money than skills.


What reading between the lines? No where does it say "repair MUST be made using OEM components". Remember, that's what the OP is trying to do ... repair.

The AI rule only loosely addresses "alterations" that can accomodate AI additions or deletions. And it only comes close in the CCR where it says OEM-like and meets a 50/50 rule.

And you, of all people, should be on the "not much money, but lots of skills" bandwagon. Don't penalize those who can think, build and fabricate.

Write a rule that says what it means, and there is no interpretation. Write a rule to try and encompass the world and you begin to get interpretations on both sides of intent.

I have no problem mandating OEM only replacement internal and external panels. If that's the "intent" then write it in.

Loose wording is what causes the costs to go through the roof.

[scopx]

Again thanks for all the input. And I can appreciate everyones position here.
The floor pans are not that big of deal to replace. I was just looking for ease of installation, and wanted clarification so as not to paint myself in a corner like the 67 yellow fastback in attached thread. In this case, would have to do both sides from firewall back.
All or most of the upgrade mods to suspension I was going to build myself, control arms and all. Usually if I can get good look at it, and study it for bit to determine it function, can make it, albeit with lot of bitching and redos. (Was orginally trained as "combination body & paint" man as they called it in olden days.) Did do the shelby drop,adjustable control arms, and Granada disc conversion on my 65 coupe from scratch by gleaning info from internet. In other words, nothing original on my part, just following where others have gone before. But am little hazy on "adjustable" Ackerman.
So, thanks for the council. I will continue to ruminate. Just hate to see the old coupe go wanting.
TLS

Might show up at a track function in future to observe and eyeball at close proximity AI & X vehicles, but that would prob just shove me over the edge concerning decision.

[AI#97]

TLS

Might show up at a track function in future to observe and eyeball at close proximity AI & X vehicles, but that would prob just shove me over the edge concerning decision.

Best thing you can do before you spend a dime on anything.

[Waco Racer]

I do know of a '69 Camaro that will be racing in AIX next year.

[Fbody383]

I do know of a '69 Camaro that will be racing in AIX next year.

I thought BL drove a '68.

I'm leaving the '69 "stock"

[Waco Racer]

I do know of a '69 Camaro that will be racing in AIX next year.

I thought BL drove a '68.

I'm leaving the '69 "stock"

Rookies :roll:

[scopx]

After much consternation and deliberation, have decided to build a streetable open roadster with halo cage acceptable to NASA regs. And will be designing/building own front suspension and "welded sheet metal" floor pan. Then can have it both ways (if can pass tech inspection.) If I interpret regs correctly, would then be placed in SU class.
So may see you down the road somewhere Guys.
Still hate to see the old beast lying out in the weeds.

Thanks for all the input.
TLS

[TJ Bain]

Correct. However, you could replace the panel with one from a mustang if it's cheaper! LOL!!!!

the reason AI costs are skyrocketing is because of people like you Mitch that read between the lines and say "what if" and the fact that many racers have more money than skills. I just LOVE whipping their asses with a garage built car with bolt on parts that have been around for 15 years.

The Mustang floor pan wouldn't fly. A couple years ago, I asked Griswold if I could weld Mustang strut towers on my Firebird (to reduce weight and use Mustang CO kits) and he said only if I wanted to be DQ'd. :lol:

Come on! There still OEM... :shock: :wink: