Wow ... damn near $400 to race

[mitchntx]

I had heard rumors that fees were going up. Didn't expect it to be a 20% increase.

[David Love AI27]

[Todd Covini]

Who has been run off???

[cjlmlml]

It sure seemed like the TWS rookie day went very well.

It wsnt as involved as planning a full race weekend, but:

AICMC had its own run group all weekend

Track was super helpful to work with.

Do we need NASA TX to plan a race at TWS or can we do it ourselves?

Thinking out loud here.....

[mitchntx]

I guess we could all sign up for HPDE 4 and just go at it ... ;)

Hallett has COMA ... maybe Motorsports Club could come up with something similar.


Texas Driving Experience at TMS, The Driver's Edge and APEX can routinely fill up the grid. These are sound business models that seem to work.

When I suggested benchmarking these groups (along with several other things), I was dismissed.

[drierson]

NASA-SE is only $269 for the weekend and they have an event at Road Atlanta March 13-14, which is the same weekend as the NASA-TX at MSR-C. I would rather save some on entrance fees to put towards some gas and try out Road Atlanta. Is anyone else interested??

[David Love AI27]

[ShadowBolt]

Since we race for a plastic medal why should it cost any more than TDE? We do not get as much track time now. That's great news. I was told we could also lose a race soon. Three races and almost $400.00! I've been looking for a new trailer but maybe I need to rethink that. Just when you think CMC is going to get better and bigger they go up on the price and run some people off.

JJ

[mitchntx]

I can never get a response from NASA-Texas via e-mail and I can't get a return phone call from Shannon, so I'll post this here. Some one who has the "insider" contact info, feel free to pass this along.


I have several years in marketing strategies, dealing with everything from a new safety initiative to frozen salaries. It runs the gammet.

So, to market the series ...


Institute a racer's package.

Package 3 event weekends together for a discounted price ... say $1050. It's still an increase over last years's per-race fee, but discounted enough over this year's structure to get folks' attention

Particulars ...

Payable by January 24th.
Regular and normal races only. No enduros.
Non-refundable, non-transferrable.
Redeemable at any NASA-Texas sanctioned event in 2010 only.

Not sure how teams could make this work, but I'm sure something could be worked out.

This gives NASA-Texas a nice nest egg and working capital to begin AGGRESIVELY advertising the series.

Sponsor several of the major internet sites that we all visit routinely. Solicit a list from the users. Or ask at registration. The bigger sites are ~$100 a quarter ... sign up for 1/2 a year and see how it works out.

Advertise in GRM by placing the year's schedule in the mag. I bet this is a freebie.

Build posters and bills that could be placed on track bulletin boards. It's important to have a tear-away pad with all the pertinnent contact info attached to the poster. This is something the potential customer can take with them and not have to rely on memory.

Contact competitors and attempt to build a bridge to get new blood headed NASA's way. But you have to have something to offer. Also check what the competitor's are charging. Benchmark them. Figure out why they are filling the grids and NASA-Texas isn't. Self-Assessments are vital to maintain continued viability and improved performance.

Finally, at registration, ASK where the participants heard about the event and NASA-Texas. This "survey" will point a finger at where to spend your advertising dollars.

These are just a few ideas to try and generate a buzz about what we have going on here.


Another idea is to offer a limited number of $100 off coupons for those of us who take our cars to the Texas Mile. Make an exhibition run, but put us right up front where everyone can see us, the cars and we can answer questions. Face time is vital for people to see who we really are.


These are all simple, cheap marketing strategies that can pay big dividends TODAY, not next year.

[MikeP99Z]

Have you sent the above to Shannon? All good ideas !

If not, I can forward it and see what we can make happen.

<sips some Koolaid>
Regarding this thread - some cost increase was expected at some point in time. This was likely derived from 2009 car counts, as well as increased insurance costs and event costs the past 2 years. Costs vary by region depending on turnout (I noticed Homestead was $499 for the weekend and RA was $299). The increase is not meant to run people off, but you can't lose money putting on an event either.
<spits out the Koolaid>

Feel free to share concerns or suggestions with me via PM and I'll get them into the right hands.

[mitchntx]

Have you sent the above to Shannon? All good ideas !

If not, I can forward it and see what we can make happen.

<sips some Koolaid>
Regarding this thread - some cost increase was expected at some point in time. This was likely derived from 2009 car counts, as well as increased insurance costs and event costs the past 2 years. Costs vary by region depending on turnout (I noticed Homestead was $499 for the weekend and RA was $299). The increase is not meant to run people off, but you can't lose money putting on an event either.
<spits out the Koolaid>

Feel free to share concerns or suggestions with me via PM and I'll get them into the right hands.

Please do forward. I've never gotten a response from Shannon.


Primarily car count, from what I've been told.

But unless I missed this lesson in Business 101, when a company, who has a core clientelle and is trying to generate cash flow, raises it's product's pricing, it tends to fix things for the near term. But it doesn't sustain the growth.

If 50 more cars on average began showing up, I doubt the price would go down.

[MikeP99Z]

Package 3 event weekends together for a discounted price ... say $1050. It's still an increase over last years's per-race fee, but discounted enough over this year's structure to get folks' attention
Not gonna happen.



This gives NASA-Texas a nice nest egg and working capital to begin AGGRESIVELY advertising the series.
The entry fees cover event costs, not marketing.



Sponsor several of the major internet sites that we all visit routinely. Solicit a list from the users. Or ask at registration. The bigger sites are ~$100 a quarter ... sign up for 1/2 a year and see how it works out.
If we can get a solid list of popular sites for AICMC, and other groups, they will do this. Series directors will have to pull together a top ten list or similar.



Advertise in GRM by placing the year's schedule in the mag. I bet this is a freebie.
Done, you should start seeing ads next month. It wasn't cheap or free.



Build posters and bills that could be placed on track bulletin boards. It's important to have a tear-away pad with all the pertinnent contact info attached to the poster. This is something the potential customer can take with them and not have to rely on memory.
Now on the list to be designed and distributed.



Contact competitors and attempt to build a bridge to get new blood headed NASA's way. But you have to have something to offer. Also check what the competitor's are charging. Benchmark them. Figure out why they are filling the grids and NASA-Texas isn't. Self-Assessments are vital to maintain continued viability and improved performance.
Social networking sites are up and running, and more will be added by the respective directors. Competitors fees have been checked and benchmarked. They aren't filling the race grid either (the competition doesn't pay workers, and DE pricing is similar to competition). Self assessment meetings have already been conducted, more will follow in January.



Finally, at registration, ASK where the participants heard about the event and NASA-Texas. This "survey" will point a finger at where to spend your advertising dollars.
Will add survey at registration table.



Another idea is to offer a limited number of $100 off coupons for those of us who take our cars to the Texas Mile. Make an exhibition run, but put us right up front where everyone can see us, the cars and we can answer questions. Face time is vital for people to see who we really are.
Details to be worked out, but this can be done.

Regarding JJ's post - no track time is slated to be cut from the AICMC schedule. It is up to the directors to decide if there will be 3 or 4 races per weekend. If it is 3, then the 3rd will be like a 40 min race on Sunday. The exception to this is the Enduro weekend - for which the schedule has not been finalized yet - but likely only 3 sprint races that weekend.

Open to more suggestions.

This response has been approved and sponsored by KRAFT Foods Inc., makers of Kool-Aid and sugar free Kool-Aid (only 5 calories per serving !)

[Todd Covini]

Shannon's very aware of the "Package Deal" concept but they are not interested in the "pay it forward" idea where they bank/account for events in advance. It's come up many times before...maybe Mike can serve it up differently with success.

I realize any price hike hurts and it would feel so much better if we guaranteed X number of additional cars which could hopefully stave off an increase.

Regarding attracting new cars into the series...we're doing it folks. Radio & newspaper ads and television spots on Speed are not going to do it and Pantas, Royce and the other regional directors will tell you that.

We are attracting new drivers to the series at the grassroots level with the very things we're doing. Image, video, word of mouth, great experiences, track time, great racing, banquets, etc. Shoulda been to Rookie Day to see the count, the excitement and the energy in the room.

As far as taking our ball and going elsewhere, I've got too much loyalty for that. I had a choice in the beginning, chose NASA and will stick with them. They've provided me thousands of great memories and hundreds of great friends over the years. I like the AI/CMC series too much and don't feel like going back to DE or racing in an inferior class. I'm not going to leave over a few extra dollars....but would still like to keep costs low somehow!!!

-=- Todd

[MikeP99Z]

We have a playground to play on, with people we generally like to play with. No playground is perfect, but we get more time on this playground than on the other one per dollar. This playground has a suggestion box, the other one doesn't.

This is a hobby, everyone in the organization - competitors and staff alike, have real jobs.

I'm happy to have a place to play with good friends, and meet new people at every event.

[mitchntx]

I can sleep well knowing I tried to move forward.

The sad thing is the region is mired in a traditional, unchanging, un-moving business model.

It doesn't take an MBA to see that it isn't working.

[MikeP99Z]

I'm tryin' man, I can only do so much as a liaison, and others can only do so much as directors.

[David Love AI27]

[Alien]

Gary R. has brought people into the series. What interested them?
I think I speak for the others when I say this...
http://www.nsxfiles.com/Pyramid_of_speed.htm

Myself, Nick, Wade, Cody, and Kent, all came from autocross. Strangely enough, 4 out of 5 of us autocrossed Ford Rangers at one time or another before stepping down to pony car. Myself (3rd gen), Nick (LS1, 3rd gen), Wade (multiple Foxes), Cody (Fox, LS1, 3rd Gen, LT1) and Kent (Mustangs). Wik a love of American V8s, CMC was/is the cheapest way to get our feet wet at the top of the Pyramid. The goal was not to use DE's as a stepping stone, but rather to get past that level as quickly as possible. Racing was our goal. I think between us 5 we maybe have done a dozen? DE events outside of NASA/trying to get our licenses.

ASedan was a blip on my radar until Costas pointed me towards CMC so I didn't "hemorrhage money" into an AS car.

[David Love AI27]

[Todd Covini]

too simple.
it's not that easy...we've spent some time at car shows, autocrosses, etc.
How did we get from "I'm out" to "I'm determined to get more people"? :D

I'm just sayin'....

[Shortcutsleeping]

I think I had at least a decent hand in getting Gary R, Nick, Cody and Wade pointed towards CMC. I don't claim Kent.... :shock: hehehehe

Coming from a marketing background, I personally think it is a waste to spend money on GRM (love the mag tho!) for Texas only. Keep posting up awesome vids and stories (have somebody do official writeups with driver quotes and pics, links to vids, etc) on every forum you can find and you'll gain more than any mag can get you. Use your connections to infiltrate DEs and get those folks who show w2w desire pointed toward your sanctioning body. I have personally moved several folks from the hpde route over to sanctioning bodies to get w2w licenses since I have instructed for a few groups. Works like a champ.

Lastly, I've searched and searched and can't find 2010 event pricing anywhere....does anyone have a link or an exact price?


Costas
cars and such...

[MikeP99Z]

Lastly, I've searched and searched and can't find 2010 event pricing anywhere....does anyone have a link or an exact price?


https://www.nasaproracing.com/event

Click on an event. Only a few 2010 events open for registration at the moment.

[David Love AI27]

too simple.
it's not that easy...we've spent some time at car shows, autocrosses, etc.
How did we get from "I'm out" to "I'm determined to get more people"? :D

I'm just sayin'....

Sorry, my bad... all input will be deleted

[mitchntx]

I think my point was missed about GRM.

I agree with Paul about "advertising" in GRM. The folks that get GRM are ALREADY NASA members. That's not your target audience.

GRM does have a section called "Coming Events". It's on page 180 of the most recent issue. Surely that's a freebie ...


On a few sites I frequent, there already is a sponsor that advertises track time (LS1Tech.com for example). So, any mention I might make about NASA-Texas is considered non-sponsor advertising and the post gets deleted. I can skate by posting vids and such, discussing the weekend, etc. But advertising before hand is a no-no.


One last point ... Mike/Todd ... your heartfelt comments about the viability of Jay and Shannon are understood. Both of you have history and a personal stake in their success.

If your pleas are truly heartfelt, then why don't you guys say "thanks , but no thanks" to the comps you get. The extra $5K a year you 2 guys would provide would go a long way to meet that goal. Just a suggestion.

[Thinkkker]

I don't claim Kent.... :shock: hehehehe


Not many do.... :( :lol:

*the below is a outsiders view on things, so may not be all true*

I have known of the series for awhile. When it first showed in TX, the numbers at least looked low. This is at least if you compare to East and West coast at the time. Coming from AutoX and such, I would want the largest most competitive class to play with. This is a big checkmark for me to look at.

The next is time/money. Which, one of these two, will be the big issue I am sure with most around. I have never had the time since college, and never had the money prior to graduation. It is quickly coming to the point where both are at a happy spot and W2W racing is a viable option.

Onto the knowing/learning of AICMC. This is all due to word of mouth mainly. Honestly, nationals coverage is shown in GRM, but I look at the pictures and see what is there and it still seems like it is out of gasp. Even though I may pay near the same to take a street car to run for a couple days, every bit as far away, at probably near the same cost for SoloII Nationals. This gives a cool look at it, but it still "appears" like more of a pro thing.

*again, outsider looking in*

Learning of friends I have and talking to the guys out running the series is what really draws me to this, and the V8 love of course. The only other place I can think of good draws for folks is Lemons. I know a couple of teams have come from this group, but not sure how to tie the two together. A sticker on the rear of the car, or front for those of us with about 40hp, may be the best bet for advertising so to speak.

I think the biggest issue with how I have learned and am progressing into the group *hopefully soon...* is that once you are in, I am sure that much time is spent just doing Nasa events. I do not say this in a bad way, but this lends to no new blood since you see the same folks. It is not like a AutoX where someone can drive up off the street and jump out to play. Most tracks are at least slightly out of the way.

Hopefully this makes some sense. I just figured I would add a little to the discussion even if its useless.


Oh yeah, I have always thought the entry fees would be super huge. If a add is put out, it may be mentioned that racing for just about HPDE prices. That may get some interest too. Not sure if this is put out or not. It makes sense in my mind.

[mitchntx]

I don't claim Kent.... :shock: hehehehe


Not many do.... :( :lol:

*the below is a outsiders view on things, so may not be all true*

I have known of the series for awhile. When it first showed in TX, the numbers at least looked low. This is at least if you compare to East and West coast at the time. Coming from AutoX and such, I would want the largest most competitive class to play with. This is a big checkmark for me to look at.

The next is time/money. Which, one of these two, will be the big issue I am sure with most around. I have never had the time since college, and never had the money prior to graduation. It is quickly coming to the point where both are at a happy spot and W2W racing is a viable option.

Onto the knowing/learning of AICMC. This is all due to word of mouth mainly. Honestly, nationals coverage is shown in GRM, but I look at the pictures and see what is there and it still seems like it is out of gasp. Even though I may pay near the same to take a street car to run for a couple days, every bit as far away, at probably near the same cost for SoloII Nationals. This gives a cool look at it, but it still "appears" like more of a pro thing.

*again, outsider looking in*

Learning of friends I have and talking to the guys out running the series is what really draws me to this, and the V8 love of course. The only other place I can think of good draws for folks is Lemons. I know a couple of teams have come from this group, but not sure how to tie the two together. A sticker on the rear of the car, or front for those of us with about 40hp, may be the best bet for advertising so to speak.

I think the biggest issue with how I have learned and am progressing into the group *hopefully soon...* is that once you are in, I am sure that much time is spent just doing Nasa events. I do not say this in a bad way, but this lends to no new blood since you see the same folks. It is not like a AutoX where someone can drive up off the street and jump out to play. Most tracks are at least slightly out of the way.

Hopefully this makes some sense. I just figured I would add a little to the discussion even if its useless.


Oh yeah, I have always thought the entry fees would be super huge. If a add is put out, it may be mentioned that racing for just about HPDE prices. That may get some interest too. Not sure if this is put out or not. It makes sense in my mind.

That is fantastic in-sight and should be taken to heart by every one ... me included.

Quite honestly, you are the target market share.

[Hood]

I too was one of those that came from auto-x into w2w. (Gary R. left another one out :) ) I had been looking to jump into w2w for many years and could not bring myself to make the leap because of the high entry costs (all relative). I began by examining A-Sedan and was put off by having to put SO much money into the engine, transmission and tire programs (all of which are grenades with the pins pulled). I then started eyeing NASA in the late 90's but there weren't many races in Texas at the time. I let it rest as a 'one of these days' sort of thing until I moved to California. I began attending the NASA events out there, mostly at Buttonwillow and Willow Springs, and got the bug again. I was initially prepared to enter AI with a stolen chassis (for what I payed for it, it seemed like a gift) and a limited budget that would have allowed me to race 3 different weekends that year. I wound up moving back to Texas and after talking to Jeff W. and Michael M. I was convinced to shelve the AI car for a bit and try CMC. Well, I don't regret it for a second and have actually spent less money FOR THE ENTIRE YEAR, INCLUDING THE CAR PURCHASE, than I had planned on just getting the AI car finished. So... if you've read this far, I'll tell you that I have many hobbies and have invested many dollars in them but, dollar for dollar this has been the most fun I've had doing ANY of them...and that includes aerobatics (to the tune of $200/HR!) I fully expected the price increase and will just budget it as part of my hobby. I may not go out to lunch as often to compensate ($50/week adds up) but I'm still going to make my best effort to show up to ALL the races next year... hopefully with a bit more competitive car :wink: .

[BlueFirePony]

One thing to consider here folks is that the actual demographic for our series to grow is those people who are WILLING to:
Spend the $, Share in the commaradarie, and COMPETE.

If you want to look at the eco-system, a TDE/Apex etc will have a broader pool than a racing series. We can play in a DE pool and even have fun but I know a lot of DE, TT and even autoXers that just don't want to go in the W2W deep-end. So our market is smaller.

Getting our game company started has had me digging deep into marketing and R&D related to purchasing behavior related to "interactive" - our series is similar with a MUCH smaller market.

Feel me?

You need to take care of what you have - I don't mean pander (well, maybe a little). You have your advocates so work with them.
Dell found that it saved THOUSANDS of hours each year in customer service and grew specific product lines dramatically by working with product advocates - a gift card here and there and recognition was all it took. I am still under NDA but other companies are doing the same thing with fantastic results.

Go ahead and lay down a marketing strategy that includes (preferably) low cost broadcast messaging (GRM, fine) but focus energy on high-touch approaches.

I've been doing the internet thing for many years (back before Al Gore started to create it) and was involved in the pioneering that monetized it..for better or worse...I've got lots of experience in social media and have seen some wild successes but have also seen a large number fail because they need a lot of care and feeding - got enough horses to pull that sled? Let me know if you want some input/help there.

I like the Rookie Day but make it 3 times a year (North-Houston, Central-TWS, North-Cresson?) and make it an out-reach - "Open Doors and Drive Day". Go with Mitch's idea of "exhibiting" the racers every chance ... make the series approachable, interesting even intoxicating (like it is for most of us!).
Hallet is looking to be the Hyperfest of our region....it should draw in people...but we need a huge event more central to our region....Austin would be great...would Harris Hill be an option? How about TMS!?? Night race? Charity race? Pro-AM race?

There is a car show every weekend somewhere in Texas during spring and summer. How about pulling in a few local advocates from our series and others (yes, growth in other series can help us too) and have us (sure, count me in) do some outreach at local events.

Address the barriers that are naturally there - $ & time is a big deal so make sure the value is well messaged!

The commaradarie aspect is absolutely critical for growth and longevity. Like Todd, I've found the group of people I want to race with. I've dropped as much coin on this and I plan to spend as much time as I can to make sure this is a place I can create memories for many years to come.

[mitchntx]

All great suggestions. But keep eyes on the prize ...

This is NOT about growing our series as much as it is growing NASA-Texas.

[David Love AI27]

All great suggestions. But keep eyes on the prize ...

This is NOT about growing our series as much as it is growing NASA-Texas.

THATS WHAT I'VE BEEN TRING TO SAY FOR THE LAST 6 MONTHS!! Why doesn't anyone get that????

WTF???

[mitchntx]

Oh ... THAT'S what you've been trying to say. :lol:

Honestly David ... your posts weren't very clear on who your rants were leveled at. They could be interpretted towards me, towards Glenn, towards Al, towards Misty, towards Santa Claus ... or a combination of the above.

This small group of racers can't continue to keep NASA-Texas afloat. But the burden is squarely on our collective shoulders.

Because of that, as a group, we need to figure out how to plug the holes on this sinking ship.

Mike had eluded to a comprehensive self-assessment. Thinking positively, I hope that a part of that was benchmarking the competitors and then taking a hard look at the deltas between success and less than success in NASA-Texas.

For instance ...

The Driver's Edge -
a driver gets his own run group for the weekend
advanced drivers are $275 for the weekend
discount packages and gift certificates offered
wider variety of tracks (Harris Hill in mid-January, TMS at night and regularly do MSR-C and H backwards and the big tracks)

These are the kinds of things that will increase car count. If those deltas can't be closed, then there is little room for improvement.

I realize that NASA-Texas wants to focus on racing. But it's time to be honest and conclude that that business strategy isn't working.

Great positive dialogue, here fellas.

[David Love AI27]

Oh ... THAT'S what you've been trying to say. :lol:

Honestly David ... your posts weren't very clear on who your rants were leveled at. They could be interpretted towards me, towards Glenn, towards Al, towards Misty, towards Santa Claus ... or a combination of the above.


OK, if its honesty you want: ITS ALL MISTY'S FAULT... THAT BITCH... DON"T GET ME STARTED!!! :wink:

but really:

2008, Jason finished 2nd in AIX... NO TROPHY from NASATX, boy wasn't that a nice way to treat an 18 yo just coming into the series his rookie year... $50 extra if you were a Team, for what? We both paid individual memberships and both paid for comp licenses that was an additional $300 per year AND THEY CAN'T GIVE HIM A $5.00 TROPHY AND A PAT ON THE BACK??!!??

No break for multiple car teams. Jason and I were going to run at least two cars and switch between the cars. My registration was going to be $870.00 per event and $970 if I registered at the track... and $1,180 if I brought my TT car... $7,000/year!!!!

OH and sorry we can't use you as an instructor... in other words we don't want to comp any more registrations...

[mitchntx]

I feel your pain ... my first year of CMC2 was a bunch of snickering from other racers and a piece of white aluminum with my name scribbled on it from Todd. He thought it funny ...

The registration nightmare you refer to is a by-product of low car count eg. low cash flow. And one thing I cannot stress enough is that the racers have been carrying and continue to carry this burden.

If change isn't going to happen at the top, then that burden has to shift to us. Because, speakign for myself, I can't justify $2500/year for nothing but entry fees to race.

The cost of racing in southern Colorado or Kansas with the RM guys or at Road Atlanta with the SE guys is about the same out of pocket expense as it is for me to race at Houston or Hallett.

[ShadowBolt]

First NASA Texas has to figure out how to keep the drivers they have. JB told me about NASA at a Drivers Edge event or I still would not know about it. We are growing CMC in Texas but we are still losing a few each year. I bitch about the money but I really worry about others looking in and wondering why they should pay more and get less track time than with TDE or Apex. I don't know about this year but last year Rick sold out all but one event with TDE. What makes people want to do his events and not do DE's with NASA? I have heard many times that NASA Texas does not really want DE'rs at all. I know most that do DE's will not want to race but I still think that is where most of our new blood will come from. Rick is not going to tell his drivers about NASA and lose them to W2W. I think we need a strong DE program to build the series. The rookie weekend was a blast. These guys are light years ahead of where I was when I started racing. Most of these guys are Gary's friends. I had one with me for the first part of the day Sat. If he starts racing with us it will be because I invited him not because he learned about it doing DE's apart from NASA Texas. Looks to me like we will have to take care of this or it will not happen but we do need NASA Texas to promote the DE's!


I agree David that the extra $50.00 to share a car is BullShit. Only one of us can be in the car at a time and all the points are going to our team.

JJ

[AI#97]

Misty and i have run "the numbers" for NASATX...how they aren't making $40k to 50k a year running the 6 events is beyond me. The fact they make "twice as much on the TX miles events as they do an entire season of NASATX racing...".....further begs the question of how much does it cost to run a Porsche for a year....? :? :lol:

BTW, there are "other" options out there gaining ground. Testing 2010, better in 2011. Not NASA but right in their back yard.

Ya'll have fun....I'm making another batch of popcorn.

[BlueFirePony]

All great suggestions. But keep eyes on the prize ...

This is NOT about growing our series as much as it is growing NASA-Texas.

THATS WHAT I'VE BEEN TRING TO SAY FOR THE LAST 6 MONTHS!! Why doesn't anyone get that????

WTF???

Growing our series is about growing NASA-Texas. We are a series with several classes that can attract people across W2W interests and where else is an American racing series more powerful than in Texas?

[mitchntx]

All great suggestions. But keep eyes on the prize ...

This is NOT about growing our series as much as it is growing NASA-Texas.

THATS WHAT I'VE BEEN TRING TO SAY FOR THE LAST 6 MONTHS!! Why doesn't anyone get that????

WTF???

Growing our series is about growing NASA-Texas. We are a series with several classes that can attract people across W2W interests and where else is an American racing series more powerful than in Texas?

Not arguing that point.

But realistically, AI and CMC cannot generate 100 car fields. Maybe through Covini-colored glasses, but in the real world, that's just not gonna happen any time soon.

So, Spec Miata, Honda Challenge, Legends ... all have to get on board. What ever happened to all those stock cars that were showing up and knocking Jeff's doors off?

[David Love AI27]

My intent is to post FACTS.. I'm not trying to "be negative", I am trying to shed light on FACTUAL stiuations that hurt NASATX and in turn hurt AICMCTexas...

Oh and Todd "I am out" for the reasons stated above and because when I do submit simple ideas, I'm told "its not that simple"... And just because I'm not racing in this series doesn't mean I don't have a genuine love for AICMCTexas, the drivers in the series and the sport of racing overall.

I haven't seen you racing? Why do you care?

How does that feel?

This is NOT personal, you have put yourself in a position of power, a position to initiate change, a position that comes with a big target... you will NEVER make EVERYONE happy... just be glad it is only Matt and I that are upset (I would say Mitch, too, But I think he is secretly in love with you)... and yes I pulled you into it too, Mitch, it wouldn't be a rant without you..

You want to go head to head with me... get a race car and meet me on grid! Again, its not personal. As a person and a fellow racer, I love you as much as the next guy (I'm not gay... not that theres anything wrong with it).

[kbrewmr2]

be careful comparing against SE's prices as Jim does discounts if you pay well before - as the event gets closer the discount is phased out

[David Love AI27]

be careful comparing against SE's prices as Jim does discounts if you pay well before - as the event gets closer the discount is phased out

fiddy extra here if you are late...

[ShadowBolt]

be careful comparing against SE's prices as Jim does discounts if you pay well before - as the event gets closer the discount is phased out

fiddy extra here if you are late...

And fiddy more if you share a car.


JJ

[ShadowBolt]

I was told when I first started that Rick (from The Drivers Edge) was going to take over NASA. When I called him and ask he said he wished. How different would things be with Rick and his people running the show?

This is NOT a jab at Al or Todd! I just don't understand why if there is no prize money how running a racing venture is very different from running a driving school.


JJ

[David Love AI27]

I was told when I first started that Rick (from The Drivers Edge) was going to take over NASA. When I called him and ask he said he wished. How different would things be with Rick and his people running the show?

This is NOT a jab at Al or Todd! I just don't understand why if there is no prize money how running a racing venture is very different from running a driving school.


JJ

Too be fair... I believe the insurance is VERY high when you go W2W or even "timed"... Misty may have some insite to this. That is why there is no lap times at TDE or TWS HPDE?

However, look at Rick's wedsite... always "up to date" and he makes his rounds and talks to all his customers and sends out thank you emails to all his instructors... lots of smiles and great communication...

[ShadowBolt]

I was told when I first started that Rick (from The Drivers Edge) was going to take over NASA. When I called him and ask he said he wished. How different would things be with Rick and his people running the show?

This is NOT a jab at Al or Todd! I just don't understand why if there is no prize money how running a racing venture is very different from running a driving school.


JJ

Too be fair... I believe the insurance is VERY high when you go W2W or even "timed"... Misty may have some insite to this. That is why there is no lap times at TDE or TWS HPDE?

However, look at Rick's wedsite... always "up to date" and he makes his rounds and talks to all his customers and sends out thank you emails to all his instructors... lots of smiles and great communication...

You are right David. The insurance may be a killer. You are also right that Rick makes you feel like your his most important customer or instructor.

JJ

[AI#97]

Too be fair... I believe the insurance is VERY high when you go W2W or even "timed"... Misty may have some insite to this. That is why there is no lap times at TDE or TWS HPDE?

However, look at Rick's wedsite... always "up to date" and he makes his rounds and talks to all his customers and sends out thank you emails to all his instructors... lots of smiles and great communication...

You are right David. The insurance may be a killer. You are also right that Rick makes you feel like your his most important customer or instructor.

JJ[/quote]

Careful what you ask for boys and girls....to introduce 4 sessions of HPDE, TT and race groups will mean we end up with a Thunder and a Lightning race group. Still could squeeze in 4 ea, 30 minute races in a weekend, but a LOT more cars on track. Think fast cars and slow cars... If you are cool with that........say it.

[ShadowBolt]

Too be fair... I believe the insurance is VERY high when you go W2W or even "timed"... Misty may have some insite to this. That is why there is no lap times at TDE or TWS HPDE?

However, look at Rick's wedsite... always "up to date" and he makes his rounds and talks to all his customers and sends out thank you emails to all his instructors... lots of smiles and great communication...

You are right David. The insurance may be a killer. You are also right that Rick makes you feel like your his most important customer or instructor.

JJ

Careful what you ask for boys and girls....to introduce 4 sessions of HPDE, TT and race groups will mean we end up with a Thunder and a Lightning race group. Still could squeeze in 4 ea, 30 minute races in a weekend, but a LOT more cars on track. Think fast cars and slow cars... If you are cool with that........say it.[/quote]

Who said four sessions? Maybe only two but at half the price of a normal DE. Also why do we have the Legacy cars with us? I assumed it was just to get car counts up?

JJ

[BlueFirePony]

Too be fair... I believe the insurance is VERY high when you go W2W or even "timed"... Misty may have some insite to this. That is why there is no lap times at TDE or TWS HPDE?

However, look at Rick's wedsite... always "up to date" and he makes his rounds and talks to all his customers and sends out thank you emails to all his instructors... lots of smiles and great communication...

You are right David. The insurance may be a killer. You are also right that Rick makes you feel like your his most important customer or instructor.

JJ

Careful what you ask for boys and girls....to introduce 4 sessions of HPDE, TT and race groups will mean we end up with a Thunder and a Lightning race group. Still could squeeze in 4 ea, 30 minute races in a weekend, but a LOT more cars on track. Think fast cars and slow cars... If you are cool with that........say it.[/quote]
Not to mention trying to throw tech inspections into a DE organized event? Adding competition to the mix affects more than the insurance cost. Rick is very careful to message that his events are non-timed, non-competitive. I have heard him correct workers, instructors and even participants when he hears the word "racing" come up.
We can probably go down the line comparing a TDE event to a NASA event. I ran TDE events for almost three years and loved them...Rick is a great guy and run's a great organization but they are not flawless and I would argue that NASA deals with more complex logistics and marketing (DE + TT + W2W != DE).

[BlueFirePony]

All great suggestions. But keep eyes on the prize ...

This is NOT about growing our series as much as it is growing NASA-Texas.

THATS WHAT I'VE BEEN TRING TO SAY FOR THE LAST 6 MONTHS!! Why doesn't anyone get that????

WTF???

Growing our series is about growing NASA-Texas. We are a series with several classes that can attract people across W2W interests and where else is an American racing series more powerful than in Texas?

Not arguing that point.

But realistically, AI and CMC cannot generate 100 car fields. Maybe through Covini-colored glasses, but in the real world, that's just not gonna happen any time soon.

So, Spec Miata, Honda Challenge, Legends ... all have to get on board. What ever happened to all those stock cars that were showing up and knocking Jeff's doors off?
Completely understand Mitch...I guess I am looking to heat up the lake and not boil the ocean right now. You all have seen much more than I have and I appreciate the deep knowledge all y'all have. I just think that if we focus on our series and help NASA-TX anchor then it will reciprocate in the long run. Call me optimistic or a Covini-disciple...just come race with me ;)

[David Love AI27]

Careful what you ask for boys and girls....to introduce 4 sessions of HPDE, TT and race groups will mean we end up with a Thunder and a Lightning race group. Still could squeeze in 4 ea, 30 minute races in a weekend, but a LOT more cars on track. Think fast cars and slow cars... If you are cool with that........say it.

Matt, I don't think anyone wants this to be like TDE as far as run groups... I think the point is we would like to see it run in the same business like manner as TDE... when is the last time you got a big "honest to god" smile and thanks from the people that have YOUR cash in THEIR pockets??

I do hope that everyone understands that it IS a business, this is NOT an non-profit organization. THEY ARE OWNERS and have the right to set their own prices, it is just a shame that the diehard "I don't want to go to another series" guys have to pay for someone elses mismanagement and/or greed...

[AI#97]

My point was missed....the 4 HPDE group, two or 3 race group formula is the NASA National model from just about EVERY other NASA region.

Basically, it's a TDE event with a race group or two instead of "instructor" group.

If I were to do things, I'd probably follow an "Apex" model of green, blue and advanced groups and throw "racecraft" in with TT...with the focus of at least 4 - 30 minute races per weekend for racers, HPDE sessions would be 20 minutes only. It could be done, but you guys will have to learn to race with Group 7 and probably one other (download a NASA SE schedule sometime to compare). Only place this could be a problem is Cresson and maybe Hallett with the shorter tracks. Would you have a problem if an event was paid for by HPDE students and your race entry fee was say.....$200? or maybe $250 with some badass trophies?

As for "not needing NASA"..... there are ways around this....the rookie day was a pretty good example! ;)

[mitchntx]

Rumors abound about a new "grassroots" series ... formed just like NASA was when folks became disgruntled with the SCCA.

And in many ways, NASA has become this big, political machine, very much like the SCCA.

Maybe its just the nature of this hobby?

Small, intimate, grassroots racing today. And as it grows, so grow the politics. I don't see that changing. At best, it would be a stop-gap measure.

Which takes me full circle ... which is better? New or improved? I'm kind leaning towards improved ... today, any way.

[AI#97]

Rumors abound about a new "grassroots" series ... formed just like NASA was when folks became disgruntled with the SCCA.

And in many ways, NASA has become this big, political machine, very much like the SCCA.

Maybe its just the nature of this hobby?

Small, intimate, grassroots racing today. And as it grows, so grow the politics. I don't see that changing. At best, it would be a stop-gap measure.

Which takes me full circle ... which is better? New or improved? I'm kind leaning towards improved ... today, any way.

Interesting how some NASA folks forget so easily how NASA was formed in the first place....a group of racers that hated the "establishment" left and formed their own sandbox. Proof nobody learns from History any more.

[Rob Liebbe]

have to pay for someone elses mismanagement and/or greed...

Are we talking racing or US Government? 8)

[Todd Covini]

Rumors abound about a new "grassroots" series ... formed just like NASA was when folks became disgruntled with the SCCA.

And in many ways, NASA has become this big, political machine, very much like the SCCA.

Maybe its just the nature of this hobby?

Small, intimate, grassroots racing today. And as it grows, so grow the politics. I don't see that changing. At best, it would be a stop-gap measure.

Which takes me full circle ... which is better? New or improved? I'm kind leaning towards improved ... today, any way.

Interesting how some NASA folks forget so easily how NASA was formed in the first place....a group of racers that hated the "establishment" left and formed their own sandbox. Proof nobody learns from History any more.
+++++++++++++

Ooookk guys. I'm still clueless as to exactly what your issues are. You drew me out, like you wanted to. This negativity volley is pretty comical. "big political machine?" "the establishment?" C'mon...

I approached Matt and talked for 30 minutes last weekend to try and get to the heart of what the problems are but all I got out of it was "Todd needs to tighten up and Matt needs to lighten up". I was good with that.

Listening to a handful of guys on emotional rollercoasters the last month or so has been pretty exhausting for the occasional forum follower....and trust me, I'm not the only one who feels that way. It's very anti-climatic & disappointing to have some really, really awesome things for the series only get minimized to "yeah, but it could have been a whole lot better".

Awards banquet with awesome new trophies, championship ring concept, fun time with family, over 60+ people, etc. (sourface)

Amazing 2009 Season Video (sourface...bleh...what we really need is, $100k productions, this & that, and the other thing)

2010 AI Rules (sourface...they were late...who cares that they have sweeping changes & new initiatives to begin to reign in costs & grow car count like we demanded was necessary)

Rookie Day with 20+ people, driving drills, more than 5 new rookies & new cars joining (sourface....what we really need to grow is....TV shows...radio commercials...magazine ads...etc.)

NASA Texas can do 100% of the things on your wish list, throw all the money in the world at marketing, advertising, trophies, personal smiling life coaches to steward your entire weekend experience (with cherries on top)....but all that will be null & void and worthless to grow the series/region if we have sourface attitudes. Who wants to be a part of the drama? It's 20 minute posts like these that will cancel out 20 man/days of advertising, recruiting, promoting activity.

We can't pay people to come race with us if our attitudes are piss poor. It's about the fun...if it's not fun for you, don't do it. We can understand that...but then don't go on & on & on about "I'm not having fun, not going to do it...I'm leaving now....I'm mad as hell....not going to do it....I hate you guys...I don't want to have anything to do with this group"...but then come back every day to explain more & more about it. <<

Don't get me wrong. Higher costs never sit right. Some things need improvement, no doubt. Let's talk constructively about them, but not at the expense of all of the good things & good people we have!!! We do some pretty awesome things as a region & as a series, but you'd never know it reading some people's posts.

I've tried to call/reach out to a number of folks to find out exactly what the issues are, and still haven't gotten a return call. Somebody? It's the same old Todd here....somebody clue me in...where's the elephant in the room? I can't see it??

-=- Todd

PS - Mitch...as for your suggestion that my entries not be comp'd as an official as a possible means to grow the series and keep costs down? FYI...I haven't had a comp'd entry fee in 2 years and likely won't get one next year either. Put your money where your mouth is and offer to install free roll cages for new Texas rookies joining the series in 2010! That will grow interest and car count...if your desires are genuine/heartfelt. :wink: :lol:

[mitchntx]

I actually thought this thread was candid, yet positive and proactive on how to improve the over-all picture ... until now.

You see, you just opened the door wide open for this to turn south by pointing fingers and pointing what you percieve as short-comings.

So folks who are already poissed off will now feel compelled to respond. Thanks for the sevant leadership approach.

I still stand by comment ... don't defend a price increase if you are in-line for a free ride. It lacks any credibility and whether you accept or not is not the issue. Just a deflection.

[ShadowBolt]

Todd,

First off CMC is the most fun I have ever had. I am not going anywhere. Some of the best guys I have ever know are the guys in CMC. Rookie day was a blast. Hell I even brought a possible new racer with me. What I don't understand is why people are not joining NASA in droves. I don't understand why we are ask to pay more instead of the owners growing the series? I do know that I did five to seven DE's a year for five years and never heard of NASA even though I was getting tired of doing DE's. JB happened to see me at PST on a TDE weekend or I would not be racing now. How is that possible? All I know is Rick filled up his weekends at $275.00 and now NASA is going up. We were told in one of the meetings to expect to lose a race in the future. Price is going up and we will soon lose a race? I know nothing about marketing and will never try to tell anyone how to run NASA (or any other business I don't own) that is their business but I bet you if I owned it every DE'er in Texas would know about NASA and we would have the best Racecraft program in the country. How is NASA Texas going to grow the way it is run right now, unless we the drivers grow it for them? I don't know how anyone finds out about it other than word of mouth. Nothing I wrote was targeted at you or Al. You don't own the place so you don't make the rules. I want to see CMC grow and not die but if things keep going the way they have, it will.


JJ

[Todd Covini]

Mitch,
You guys had me on page 1...I was listening and ready/willing to help anyway I could. It was candid & constructive. In fact, Mike & I are already rolling on action items.

You lost me on page 4...the innuendos and blanket accusations were a bit much.

-=- Todd

PS - I was serious too. Free rookie roll cages would be a huge attraction/recruiting tool. :lol:

[donovan]

I meet people every week at H2R that don't know what NASA.

The other thing I heard recently was that some people did not know you could DE your street car at a NASA event! They lumped NASA into SCCA type of group that does not have a DE run group on there race weekends.

DD

[donovan]

Here I will help!!

If you are a Rookie in AI-CMC and you buy your brake pads from Donovan Racing, for each set of front pads (either Hawk or PFC) you will get a free bottle of ATE Super Blue or ATE Amber.

And you are still getting the deep AI-CMC discounted price on the pads at the same time!!!

DD

Edit: Change my mind, any Rookie in NASA Texas not just AI-CMC!!

[mitchntx]

You lost me on page 4...the innuendos and blanket accusations were a bit much.

-=- Todd

PS - I was serious too. Free rookie roll cages would be a huge attraction/recruiting tool. :lol:

:confused:

I didn't post anything about free roll cages ...

Quote me so we have clear communication. Otherwise, go start working on teh 2011 rules ...

[AI#97]

[
I approached Matt and talked for 30 minutes last weekend to try and get to the heart of what the problems are but all I got out of it was "Todd needs to tighten up and Matt needs to lighten up". I was good with that.



If that is all you got out of it, I guess I just need to yell it out LOUDER in the future. Maybe I was just too nice because there was an audience that didn't need to hear what I REALLY wanted to say...you probably planned it that way, but thanks for discrediting my points that you waste my money and piss off far more people than you care to know.

So as Mitch put it, you opened the door. As long as you or AL have anything to do with being a director in AI, regionally or nationally, I will NOT field a car in this region or any other in AI. Do you get it now?

[Adam Ginsberg]

Ok.....so who can I convince to come race with us in Cali?? Free BBQ and beer at every race, for veterans and rookies. :)

[ShadowBolt]

Matt,

If that is the case then you really should not post here anymore.

Todd and Al will be around for awhile. No reason to run other possible raers off because you have a problem with those guys.

JJ

[MikeP99Z]

2008, Jason finished 2nd in AIX... NO TROPHY from NASATX, boy wasn't that a nice way to treat an 18 yo just coming into the series his rookie year... $50 extra if you were a Team, for what? We both paid individual memberships and both paid for comp licenses that was an additional $300 per year AND THEY CAN'T GIVE HIM A $5.00 TROPHY AND A PAT ON THE BACK??!!??


It was my understanding that year end points-based trophies were awarded by NASATX in every class for 1st through 3rd, and handed out at the first event of 2009 or given to the respective series director for distribution.

The $50 extra driver fee is being evaluated and will likely be dropped if it is a car under the "team" name, and the drivers are sharing the same car in the same run group for the weekend (ie David doing races 1 and 3 and Jason doing races 2 and 4, or similar etc.).

I'll need some clarification on the multicar thing - say Jason has a CMC car for the full weekend entering in all p/q/r sessions, and David has a race car in X for all p/q/r sessions - that's essentially 2 full entries. If David also brings out a TT car to run in all TT sessions, then it should only be a supersize fee or something like that for the additional track time not a complete separate entry. I'll present whatever scenario it is and see what I can do, just post or PM exactly what it is.

[GlennCMC70]

Rumors abound about a new "grassroots" series ... formed just like NASA was when folks became disgruntled with the SCCA.

And in many ways, NASA has become this big, political machine, very much like the SCCA.

Maybe its just the nature of this hobby?

Small, intimate, grassroots racing today. And as it grows, so grow the politics. I don't see that changing. At best, it would be a stop-gap measure.

Which takes me full circle ... which is better? New or improved? I'm kind leaning towards improved ... today, any way.

Interesting how some NASA folks forget so easily how NASA was formed in the first place....a group of racers that hated the "establishment" left and formed their own sandbox. Proof nobody learns from History any more.
+++++++++++++

Ooookk guys. I'm still clueless as to exactly what your issues are. You drew me out, like you wanted to. This negativity volley is pretty comical. "big political machine?" "the establishment?" C'mon...

I approached Matt and talked for 30 minutes last weekend to try and get to the heart of what the problems are but all I got out of it was "Todd needs to tighten up and Matt needs to lighten up". I was good with that.

Listening to a handful of guys on emotional rollercoasters the last month or so has been pretty exhausting for the occasional forum follower....and trust me, I'm not the only one who feels that way. It's very anti-climatic & disappointing to have some really, really awesome things for the series only get minimized to "yeah, but it could have been a whole lot better".

Awards banquet with awesome new trophies, championship ring concept, fun time with family, over 60+ people, etc. (sourface)

Amazing 2009 Season Video (sourface...bleh...what we really need is, $100k productions, this & that, and the other thing)

2010 AI Rules (sourface...they were late...who cares that they have sweeping changes & new initiatives to begin to reign in costs & grow car count like we demanded was necessary)

Rookie Day with 20+ people, driving drills, more than 5 new rookies & new cars joining (sourface....what we really need to grow is....TV shows...radio commercials...magazine ads...etc.)

NASA Texas can do 100% of the things on your wish list, throw all the money in the world at marketing, advertising, trophies, personal smiling life coaches to steward your entire weekend experience (with cherries on top)....but all that will be null & void and worthless to grow the series/region if we have sourface attitudes. Who wants to be a part of the drama? It's 20 minute posts like these that will cancel out 20 man/days of advertising, recruiting, promoting activity.

We can't pay people to come race with us if our attitudes are piss poor. It's about the fun...if it's not fun for you, don't do it. We can understand that...but then don't go on & on & on about "I'm not having fun, not going to do it...I'm leaving now....I'm mad as hell....not going to do it....I hate you guys...I don't want to have anything to do with this group"...but then come back every day to explain more & more about it. <<

Don't get me wrong. Higher costs never sit right. Some things need improvement, no doubt. Let's talk constructively about them, but not at the expense of all of the good things & good people we have!!! We do some pretty awesome things as a region & as a series, but you'd never know it reading some people's posts.

I've tried to call/reach out to a number of folks to find out exactly what the issues are, and still haven't gotten a return call. Somebody? It's the same old Todd here....somebody clue me in...where's the elephant in the room? I can't see it??

-=- Todd

PS - Mitch...as for your suggestion that my entries not be comp'd as an official as a possible means to grow the series and keep costs down? FYI...I haven't had a comp'd entry fee in 2 years and likely won't get one next year either. Put your money where your mouth is and offer to install free roll cages for new Texas rookies joining the series in 2010! That will grow interest and car count...if your desires are genuine/heartfelt. :wink: :lol:


Todd - very well said.
Guys, I want everyone to stay and race w/ us. But if you are going to do what Todd pointed out (sit here and bitch constantly about how you are leaving and why) just leave then. This message has not changed in the 5 years I've been around. Don't ruin what we have just because your not happy. The rest of us may be happy enough to stay and are acceptant of the conditions.

I have also not seen anyone defend the price increase. I'm pretty sure I speak for all regional directors that we are not happy to see this. I have seen comments from Todd about the reality of it, but that is all. Its NASA TX's ball of wax. They can charge what they feel is right for you to look at it. There is nothing we can do about it but communicate your feelings about this along w/ our own.


My personal feelings are:
How do you expect to make money at something that gets zero promotion. Car count is the key to making money. The more cars we have the less per car you need to charge to cover costs.
How to increase car counts??
Magazine Ad's (not GRM - but the others - Super Chevy, GM High Performance, Pro Touring Mags, FFMM's mag). You want to expand the number of folks who have heard of you. Too many folks here in Texas (even those in the HPDE scene) have never heard of NASA and what it offers over other groups.
The Friday before each race weekend, see about getting on the air at the radio stations local to the event to talk about the Organization and the event. We have many articulate folks who can do this in the Dallas/Ft Worth, Houston, and B/CS areas. Hallet can be taken care of from Tulsa or OKC. You offer up free entry fee tickets (for HPDE not to be spectators) as prizes to the "Morning Show" games they play.

Also, ALL HPDE folks should be classed in a TT class. Require 4 out of six weekends and a minimum of x cars in the class for 4 out of 6 weekends to qualify for Regional Championships. This will build the HPDE groups (its the draw away from TDE and APEX that NASA needs). Get the competitive juices flowing.

[MikeP99Z]

We were told in one of the meetings to expect to lose a race in the future. JJ

We are not losing any track time as a group from what we had last year. Directors may choose to run a 40 or 45 min race on Sunday instead of two 20 min races. That's up to y'all.

The only "known" 3 race weekend is during the Enduro weekend. All the logistics for the Enduro weekend (costs, track time, tech, staff etc.) are being worked out over the next couple months.

[GlennCMC70]

Mike - good news about the $50 fee for 2 drivers racing as a Team in the same car. That has been a big "WTF" for me for a long time. I've been asked to explain that by several racers.

[MikeP99Z]

Since so many are tired of getting the "medals", or aren't even bothering to pick them up, I'm working on getting real trophies for each event.

Maybe TX/RM/GL can sport a few bucks for some badboy ones at Hallett (just a thought, someone else can pick up the Summer Nationals trophy ball).

Clifton has something in mind for Hallett also, but I need to develop a new algorithm to figure that one out.

[MikeP99Z]

Magazine Ad's (not GRM - but the others - Super Chevy, GM High Performance, Pro Touring Mags, FFMM's mag). You want to expand the number of folks who have heard of you. Too many folks here in Texas (even those in the HPDE scene) have never heard of NASA and what it offers over other groups.

The GRM ad is to highlight our schedule for the year like other regions, and to promote the Enduro so other people know about it. More people will want to come down/over and try to claim the E1 win...

The other magazines will likely take National to support. We can pitch it though (highlighting all regions, schedules and programs).



The Friday before each race weekend, see about getting on the air at the radio stations local to the event to talk about the Organization and the event. We have many articulate folks who can do this in the Dallas/Ft Worth, Houston, and B/CS areas. Hallet can be taken care of from Tulsa or OKC. You offer up free entry fee tickets (for HPDE not to be spectators) as prizes to the "Morning Show" games they play.

I don't have an answer on this personally, but I'll submit it.



Also, ALL HPDE folks should be classed in a TT class. Require 4 out of six weekends and a minimum of x cars in the class for 4 out of 6 weekends to qualify for Regional Championships. This will build the HPDE groups (its the draw away from TDE and APEX that NASA needs). Get the competitive juices flowing.

I'm fine with doing this for HPDE 3/4, we can get Ken involved. Ken has a new regional championship thing with points/drops being worked out on the Texas section of nasaforums.

We're already in enough hot water for combining 1/2 and 3/4 rather than each being a separate run group, and I know JWL would shoot you and me if this type of challenge was tossed at a 1/2 driver. Also, in no way should a 1/2 driver be challenged to worry about a best lap time, or even be timed at all....

[GlennCMC70]

you are correct. i should have said i was targeting HPDE 3/4 only.

[Al Fernandez]

Personally I hate the price increase. I also dont understand how its possible that the NASA fees are higher for racers than for HPDE-ers, or that they're higher here than in places like Ca. Please do continue to give Shannon et al your thoughts about this.

Meanwhile...I suggest we concentrate on our end and our end only: AI and CMC. Just my opinion, of course.

Oh, and keep it civil :wink:

[nasa-rm]

you are correct. i should have said i was targeting HPDE 3/4 only.

Finally speaking up on something I can comment on.

It has to be groups with open passing. TT is useless if you can't pass.

Force all the instructors (including double dipping racers) driving in HPDE to be in a TT class. We had 2-3 TT entries here until we did that. Now we have 15-16 TT entries and it makes the series better. Now we have folks jumping from other groups to run TT since no other group in our area has a real TT program.

[donovan]

Here is a thought...

HPDE is usually the smallest run group. But they require the most comp'd entry's per driver.

The fee is ~$100 less per entry!
A lot of the student require an instructor, and the instructor gets a comp'd entry of what would have been a race entry fee!

To me that does not make sense.

I don't know how many instructors NASA has, but it is not good business to charge someone $300 and comp an instructor a $400 fee for that smaller entry.

That formula does not sound like a money maker!

[ShadowBolt]

Here is a thought...

HPDE is usually the smallest run group. But they require the most comp'd entry's per driver.

The fee is ~$100 less per entry!
A lot of the student require an instructor, and the instructor gets a comp'd entry of what would have been a race entry fee!

To me that does not make sense.

I don't know how many instructors NASA has, but it is not good business to charge someone $300 and comp an instructor a $400 fee for that smaller entry.

That formula does not sound like a money maker!

I agree it sounds like a Obama deal.

JJ

[kbrewmr2]

I will have to say I don't want anyone in TT that isn't ready - we're fully open passing just like the race groups without mandated safety equipment. Ensuring that first off they're driving well enough to handle it, and second off that they've got a level head on their shoulders and won't do race-style passes (which hurt both cars times and aren't as safe) is absolutely necessary. Every guy that I sign off on their TT license has had someone I trust (usually another one of my TT guys that instructs) ride with them to evalutate all of that.

(and yeah, I've been whining about that one to Natl about the mandated equip thing for a while, please whine too :) )

I don't get the price increase just like you guys, but, I should keep my mouth shut since I'm a comp'd entry as well :x I do really hope that all the work I do to run my group (1 guy for 10-25 entrants) is enough that I'm "pulling my weight" at least... doing what I can to bring in more paying people too.

You do need to comp instructor entries though, thats a beyotch of a job - I know - I switched from that to Timing & Scoring initally after getting put into a wall one too many times by a student. You will not get instructors if you charge any kind of fee really. And with that gone, well, there goes HPDE because there is no one there to help them, there goes your new TTers, your new racers... maybe the pricing structure between DE & TT & racing needs tweaked, but adding a fee for instructing is about the worst thing I think could be added in my experience

- KB, NASA-SE T&S 05-06, SE TT Dir 06-08, TX TT Dir 09 - ?

[donovan]

…You do need to comp instructor entries though, thats a beyotch of a job - I know - I switched from that to Timing & Scoring initally after getting put into a wall one too many times by a student. You will not get instructors if you charge any kind of fee really. And with that gone, well, there goes HPDE because there is no one there to help them, there goes your new TTers, your new racers... maybe the pricing structure between DE & TT & racing needs tweaked, but adding a fee for instructing is about the worst thing I think could be added in my experience

What I’m saying is that the formula has never looked right to me, and even more so now!

I think it needs reviewed and adjusted!

Just like any business when money is tight and you start looking around for areas to cut, reduce or change… this is one department that needs a complete overhaul.

Your reactive comments are the same reaction that we get from NASA most of the time in the past, its "No" or "That's now how we do it", they don’t seem to really ever try to digest the information and come up with anything alternative or listen to the alternative suggest that are delivered.

The only real thing I remember them running with are the T-Shirt sales, but that's only becuse we were doing it on our own and putting the profits in our groups funds... they wanted the profits and took over the shirts a few years back. It was all about the money and nothing else...

I know it’s a tough job instructing, but I think higher entries for the races are going to drive off more people than an instructor going from a 100% comp’d entry to something like 50% off entry! Or something like, for every two event you instruct you get one free! I don’t know what the magic number is because I don’t know rest of the story about the monies, but the current system is not working!

I suspect that since every NASA Texas event feels like it’s the first time they have ever run an event… the back end of the business is run the same way!

Just like some of us live paycheck to paycheck… they live from race weekend to race weekend and never can catch up!
DD

[MikeP99Z]

I will have to say I don't want anyone in TT that isn't ready - we're fully open passing just like the race groups without mandated safety equipment. Ensuring that first off they're driving well enough to handle it, and second off that they've got a level head on their shoulders and won't do race-style passes (which hurt both cars times and aren't as safe) is absolutely necessary. Every guy that I sign off on their TT license has had someone I trust (usually another one of my TT guys that instructs) ride with them to evalutate all of that.

The idea is for you to be a liaison with the HPDE 3/4 people and provide them with some base TT classification, points sheets, etc. to get them interested in TT. But since you had to post here first, I haven't had time to PM you. LOL I'll PM you later tonight.

[BlueFirePony]

I will have to say I don't want anyone in TT that isn't ready - we're fully open passing just like the race groups without mandated safety equipment. Ensuring that first off they're driving well enough to handle it, and second off that they've got a level head on their shoulders and won't do race-style passes (which hurt both cars times and aren't as safe) is absolutely necessary. Every guy that I sign off on their TT license has had someone I trust (usually another one of my TT guys that instructs) ride with them to evalutate all of that.

(and yeah, I've been whining about that one to Natl about the mandated equip thing for a while, please whine too :) )


Having had at least one personal best-time screwed up by a less-than-aware DE driver in a TT session I really appreciate you keying in on that Ken as well as everyone realizing that putting DE drivers in over their head is not good for safety, nor growth of the driver (and therefore the sport). Having gone through the DE/TT/W2W progression I have seen a lot of really good focus on safety and driver-focused progression and the few times I've seen someone allowed/encouraged to step up before they were ready it has, at a minimum, screwed up a competitive run and created potential safety issues.

[Al Fernandez]

You're spot on David. Of course we cant see it now since there arent many events open for registration, but I seem to recall other regions charging more for DE than for racing, not the way we see it here. Fundamentally, it costs more to have a DE student than a racer (due to instructors), so shouldnt that product cost more? But of course, DE costs are benchmarked to competitors (TDE for example). So what is a race group benchmarked against? What does it cost to run with SCCA in Texas?

[mitchntx]

But of course, DE costs are benchmarked to competitors (TDE for example).

That's not exactly a true statement.

Rick charges $295 (like NASA-Texas DE) for an HPDE 1/2 student. But it goes down to $275 for the advanced groups that don't require an instructor.

A couple of the by-products that TDE gives is variety. They run MSR-C 1.7 both directions plus the 3.1

Harris Hill, TMS (at night no less) are other "draws" for a potential customer.

So its not ALL about the entry fee.

Like I've been preaching, the AI/CMC GROUP has the proper perspective for the most part. It shows in the growth.

Where the most impact can be felt is when the other groups find their "proper perspective".

And what's proper for us might not be proper for them. In these "hard times" open minds make headway. Its time for big chunks of pride and ego to be swallowed so that the whole can flourish not just a couple pieces.

I'm glad others have taken up this banner as well. Because bucking the system is basically what cost me my spot at the NASA-Texas table. Well, maybe it was blunt honesty that did it, but it is what it is. So the rest of you, be careful ... 8)

[BlueFirePony]

my spot at the NASA-Texas table.
You are welcome at any BBQ I cook anytime Mitch!

[donovan]

I'm glad others have taken up this banner as well. Because bucking the system is basically what cost me my spot at the NASA-Texas table. Well, maybe it was blunt honesty that did it, but it is what it is. So the rest of you, be careful ... 8)

I have nothing to worry about... 8)

I like some other have been enjoying a free ride, now it's time to step up!

Instead of asking their staff to work at a reduced rate or just say no free entry, they just cut staff and the remaining people are having to work harder!!

Again, mismanagement!

Maybe I would feel better if the people that run the show would stop showing up with new expensive cars!!!

DD

[ShadowBolt]

I'm glad others have taken up this banner as well. Because bucking the system is basically what cost me my spot at the NASA-Texas table. Well, maybe it was blunt honesty that did it, but it is what it is. So the rest of you, be careful ... 8)

I have nothing to worry about... 8)

I like some other have been enjoying a free ride, now it's time to step up!

Instead of asking their staff to work at a reduced rate or just say no free entry, they just cut staff and the remaining people are having to work harder!!

Again, mis-management!

Maybe I would feel better if the people that run the show would stop showing up with new expensive cars!!!

DD

I have no idea how this works but why would NASA National not want someone else in here running NASA Texas? Even with the current economy Texas is not doing all that bad (way better than most of the rest of the country) and I think Texas car guys are ripe for the picking. As most of us know and have said in this thread, NASA Texas is not known to the car guys in Texas. I would think NASA National would take this away from the current owners for not doing a damn thing to promote the business. Can they not do anything about it? A franchise owner usually has a lot of control over his local owners. Maybe the whole thing is not run well. Tony G left NASA Ca. for what he thought was poor management.


JJ

[mitchntx]

I have no idea how this works but why would NASA National not want someone else in here running NASA Texas?

JJ



which is better? New or improved? I'm kind leaning towards improved ... today, any way.

Who knows what all the "inside" stuff is. From the outside looking in, it certainly can be viewed as questionable.

Since I started this melee, I have had some off-line discussions and have gained some in-sight on how N_Tx conducts their business. It has been enlightening, to say the least.

Not sure if I 100% agree, but at least their does appear to have some logic behind it. One thing for sure ... in the absence of reality, people make up their own. So sometimes, it's probably best to be forth-coming to head off rumors and innuendo.

And its the reason I think we can improve what we have instead of starting all over and probably winding up with a whole new set of issues at some point in time.

[ShadowBolt]

I have no idea how this works but why would NASA National not want someone else in here running NASA Texas?

JJ



which is better? New or improved? I'm kind leaning towards improved ... today, any way.

Who knows what all the "inside" stuff is. From the outside looking in, it certainly can be viewed as questionable.

Since I started this melee, I have had some off-line discussions and have gained some in-sight on how N_Tx conducts their business. It has been enlightening, to say the least.

Not sure if I 100% agree, but at least their does appear to have some logic behind it. One thing for sure ... in the absence of reality, people make up their own. So sometimes, it's probably best to be forth-coming to head off rumors and innuendo.

And its the reason I think we can improve what we have instead of starting all over and probably winding up with a whole new set of issues at some point in time.

I'm all for working to make things better and not starting all over, but I do not understand the customer having to promote the business for the owners or the business will die.

JJ

[mitchntx]

I'm all for working to make things better and not starting all over, but I do not understand the customer having to promote the business for the owners or the business will die.

JJ


This small group of racers can't continue to keep NASA-Texas afloat. But the burden is squarely on our collective shoulders.


It does seem odd. But to honest, who can market better?

You and Steve both get a percentage of your business via word of mouth. And thats the best kind.

Now, as far as threads like this turning people off?

I honestly doubt it. I think people are drawn to open and honest dialogue by a bunch of passionate participants.

[kbrewmr2]

Donovan - do you instruct or have you done it in the past?

We'll gloss over how all other DE groups comp their instructors. How would we retain & recruit when we're the only one that asks them to pay for the "priveledge" of working (it is a job) for NASA-TX?

maybe there is a solution outside the box, I just don't think that we've found it yet

8)

[donovan]

Donovan - do you instruct or have you done it in the past?

Yes, but not with NASA Texas.


We'll gloss over how all other DE groups comp their instructors. How would we retain & recruit when we're the only one that asks them to pay for the "priveledge" of working (it is a job) for NASA-TX?

I for one enjoy instructing, and I do not do it solely for the free track time. If someone were only doing it for the free track time and otherwise would not be there... no comment!


maybe there is a solution outside the box, I just don't think that we've found it yet

Ahh, but first NASA Texas needs to remove the box they have built around themselves!

This is all good discussion.

DD

[AllZWay]

David... I think I get your idea of the money not matching.. but if I were comped at half...screw it... it ain't worth the hassle.

In my case I would probably just race less and not have the headaches of instructing.

The headaches at times have almost made me quit even at full comp.

[kbrewmr2]

I'd love to hear from the big wigs themselves on this actually

[AI#97]

Instruction program is apparently getting updated....got my call recently. There will be FAR fewer comp'd entries soon. Even the regular instructors will be limited to mostly a handful with Ryan having much more upfront planning and contact. Shannon is working harder to redevelop the HPDE program to feed each series. Don't know if it's a push from national, or just trying to keep counts up and find a niche....but it's movement in the right direction. Have to give her credit for that.

I also agree with James, instructing and racing at the same event is DAMN hard work. It requires you have a very reliable car and additional prep before the event to NOT have to work on it at all. If you have to constantly work on your car and miss your student sessions, it usually ends up being a quick dismissal. 1/2 price on entry means no bueno.

[donovan]

David... I think I get your idea of the money not matching.. but if I were comped at half...screw it... it ain't worth the hassle.

In my case I would probably just race less and not have the headaches of instructing.

The headaches at times have almost made me quit even at full comp.

I hear you... It does take a special person that can juggle a race weekend with instruction... I have chosen not to do it because any student I would have during a race weekend would not have 100% of my attention, it would not be fair. I choose to do it on DE only type events, I know there are people that can do it... more power to them! and I'm jeolous!

I'm just thinking out loud, I don't know what the answer is, but there should be something better that will work for all three (NASA, Student and Instructor).

DD

[ShadowBolt]

David... I think I get your idea of the money not matching.. but if I were comped at half...screw it... it ain't worth the hassle.

In my case I would probably just race less and not have the headaches of instructing.

The headaches at times have almost made me quit even at full comp.

I have never instructed with NASA but I did for a while with TDE. It is not worth the effort. Some days you don't have time to think and if you have car issues your sunk. I can't imagine instructing during a race weekend. You guys earn every penny!

JJ

[rleng1]

Donovan - do you instruct or have you done it in the past?

Yes, but not with NASA Texas.


We'll gloss over how all other DE groups comp their instructors. How would we retain & recruit when we're the only one that asks them to pay for the "priveledge" of working (it is a job) for NASA-TX?

I for one enjoy instructing, and I do not do it solely for the free track time. If someone were only doing it for the free track time and otherwise would not be there... no comment!


maybe there is a solution outside the box, I just don't think that we've found it yet

Ahh, but first NASA Texas needs to remove the box they have built around themselves!

This is all good discussion.

DD

David doesn't instruct, he schools with the black miata.

[donovan]

Now that is funny!! What a fun weekend that was!!!

[michaelmosty]

It seemed like every time I came down the front straight during that session I looked up and saw the Miata. I thought, boy what crazy timing this is. :lol:
I'm just curious to see what the Mustang looks like all finished. 8)

[donovan]

I'm just curious to see what the Mustang looks like all finished. 8)

you and me both!!

I did find another 15 lbs yesterday!! I think that's 100 so far!!!

Looking for 3025-3050 post race!!
If I hit the gym hard I could be sub 3000 post race!!!