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View Full Version : dyno every year is dumb.



ShadowBolt
01-21-2010, 01:32 PM
I have been wondering why we dyno at the start of every year? It is a pain in the ass and it accomplishes nothing. Why were our cars okay from Feb. to Oct. last year but now three months later we must dyno once again. Unless you changed something on the car why re-dyno? As soon as you leave the dyno you could change something and unless you got your hood sealed and had to re-dyno no one would ever know. The dyno at the start of the year was a waste of time. I was talking to another racer about this today and he had a great idea. I don't want to say his name so the powers that be will not just throw it out because it was HIS idea. How bout we all put $50.00 in the kitty at the first of the year (about what one dyno session cost) and just have the top three or four guys at random weekends draw for who has to dyno (on our money). The only thing I see wrong with this idea is if one guy gets unlucky and has to dyno several times in a year. I don't know how often the top guys have to go now but I think I remember Wirtz having to dyno several times in 2008. With this plan if we have 20 CMC CMC-2 drivers we would have enough money to get 15-20 dynos done per year.
Sorry to say but guys at the back of the pack like me will not win just because they are cheating with 30 extra h/p but if I got lucky I could also get picked to have the hood sealed and recheck the car.

Okay firesuit is on.
JJ

Wirtz
01-21-2010, 02:18 PM
I've been thinking along similar lines, but with a few differences.

I don't think it should be someone from only the top 3 to dyno per the luck of the draw. I do like the idea of the entire filed being put in the hat for a occasional random drawing. The reason is cheating, or thoughts that someone is cheating, can spread and wreck a series from within. It does not matter if you are first or last, your car needs to meet the rules.

One idea was to treat dynos like we do inspections. Get a dyno cert, it is good for one year. Make a change to your car part way through the year and you redyno, you're good for another year. Get pulled in a drawing to recheck, your good for another year.

It would be up to the driver to maintain his dyno info in his log book and to make sure it is up to date. There should be a statement about what happens if someone comes and runs with a cert out of date (hood / computer seal and immediate retest?).

I really do agree that dyno runs at the first of the year only for the start of a new season is pointless.

Jeff

David Love AI27
01-21-2010, 02:24 PM
In the past, we did random dynos... I propose if you finish in the top 2 and you DON'T have a current dyno that your hood be sealed and you get a dyno within 10 working days or you are DQed...

At Nationals I had 3 or 4 "current" dynos and I picked one to be my "official" dyno. Had I got caught with different numbers then I would have been DQed...




Edited out the smart ass remarks before posting

David Love AI27
01-21-2010, 02:26 PM
I've been thinking along similar lines, but with a few differences.

I don't think it should be someone from only the top 3 to dyno per the luck of the draw. I do like the idea of the entire filed being put in the hat for a occasional random drawing. The reason is cheating, or thoughts that someone is cheating, can spread and wreck a series from within. It does not matter if you are first or last, your car needs to meet the rules.

One idea was to treat dynos like we do inspections. Get a dyno cert, it is good for one year. Make a change to your car part way through the year and you redyno, you're good for another year. Get pulled in a drawing to recheck, your good for another year.

It would be up to the driver to maintain his dyno info in his log book and to make sure it is up to date. There should be a statement about what happens if someone comes and runs with a cert out of date (hood / computer seal and immediate retest?).

I really do agree that dyno runs at the first of the year only for the start of a new season is pointless.

Jeff

you propose a dyno be good for 12 months? unless the earmarked changes have been made? That would be nice!!

Fbody383
01-21-2010, 02:37 PM
One idea was to treat dynos like we do inspections. Get a dyno cert, it is good for one year. Make a change to your car part way through the year and you redyno, you're good for another year. Get pulled in a drawing to recheck, your good for another year.

Which in the general case, IS a dyno for the first race of the year.

I'm in this camp also and think using GPS based data acquisition is a potential interim step; run the GPS on random cars each qual/race session and anything over a given percent triggers re-dyno. Make the margin big enough to avoid false positives.

What about offering competitors the opporunity to "buy" a car to dyno? Jerry and I think Wirtz is over so we put up collectively (split determined between the protestors) $150, $200, enough that it would cover the dyno AND aggravation costs.

Not picking on Wirtz or Jerry just using them since they're in the thread.

And under current rules I still need to get one done in the next 8 days.

kbrewmr2
01-21-2010, 03:04 PM
I'd rather put my car on the dyno than deal with teardowns, cam measurements, the whistler, CC'ing heads, and that kind of crap. I switched how my car was handled in PT to avoid that actually...

There are many ways to set up a class and its compliance measures. And I'm just offering a different POV :) You guys do have a pretty well setup class after all...

ShadowBolt
01-21-2010, 04:09 PM
I've been thinking along similar lines, but with a few differences.

I don't think it should be someone from only the top 3 to dyno per the luck of the draw. I do like the idea of the entire filed being put in the hat for a occasional random drawing. The reason is cheating, or thoughts that someone is cheating, can spread and wreck a series from within. It does not matter if you are first or last, your car needs to meet the rules.

One idea was to treat dynos like we do inspections. Get a dyno cert, it is good for one year. Make a change to your car part way through the year and you redyno, you're good for another year. Get pulled in a drawing to recheck, your good for another year.

It would be up to the driver to maintain his dyno info in his log book and to make sure it is up to date. There should be a statement about what happens if someone comes and runs with a cert out of date (hood / computer seal and immediate retest?).

I really do agree that dyno runs at the first of the year only for the start of a new season is pointless.

Jeff

I don't want to have to get a dyno done even once a year. That is all I have done so far. Unless something has changed the numbers will not be much different. I like the idea that anyone (I agree Jeff ) could get drawn every race weekend. Only a fool would cheat and hope he did not get drawn out of the hat. The only way it would work is you could get unlucky and get drawn several times in a row.


JJ

AllZWay
01-21-2010, 04:09 PM
I have to agree that the yearly dyno is a major pain in my butt. I have to load up an haul 2 hours just to get a dyno done.

And this year I dynoed about 5hp less than last year and I haven't touched a thing.

I could go for a random dyno from the entire group every weekend...not just top finishers though.

Of course there are issues regardless of which way you go.

I prefer the yearly dyno over tear downs and other hassles and random dynos would still be a major pain for me since nothing is local....unless the dynos were done at the track.

All in all the current system is a pain, but I still think it is an okay system.

ShadowBolt
01-21-2010, 04:30 PM
All in all the current system is a pain, but I still think it is an okay system.

I agree James but a random system would be better IMHO.

JJ

michaelmosty
01-21-2010, 05:28 PM
The only problem with multiple random dyno's is that if throughout the year 75% of the people get called then it is only an advantage for a small few. If 1 or 2 people / event get called to dyno then that isn't enough people. If 3 or 4 get called then by the end of the year it will be almost a full number of dyno's.

At least this way people have a few months to get their dyno done during a time that is most convenient for them.
I agree it sucks to make no changes, dyno every year, and get the same results.

rleng1
01-21-2010, 05:55 PM
What if, I'm just saying, that your dyno is good for 2 years, and only during the 2nd year, will you be considered for a random dyno.
Just a rookie idea.
Dyno day was fun, but then again, it was my first time. And everything is so much more funner the first time.....except racing :roll:

Rob Liebbe
01-21-2010, 08:27 PM
I like the fact that the dyno days are set in the "off" season. I'm happy with the current system of annual dynos and the threat of random dynos throughout the year. However, I'm not sure that this can ever be fully policed with the existence of flip switches, etc. On the track data may be a good gauge of how a car performs while on track. I could run a cheater tune on the track, flip a hidden switch coming off the track and then have my hood sealed and the dyno number would go right back to what it should be.

If a car is getting a good run down the track, the reason is not necessarily by horsepower, but by corner exit speed, early throttle application, later braking, bigger balls, whatever. On-track data would help figure this out. Having said that, does anyone really have the time to analyze the data, etc. In fact, you'd have to analyze multiple cars for each event to get a comparison. I barely have time to work on my car and download videos most of the time.

If someone else has the time and the knowledge, then I guess we could try that. As for now, the current system may not be perfect or great, but it works for me.

Rob - 222 hp - Liebbe

David Love AI27
01-21-2010, 08:42 PM
but by bigger balls,

I went through all the spares for the 3 car and didn't find any... DOH

mitchntx
01-21-2010, 08:47 PM
Random thoughts in no particular order ...

A recent poll showed everyone was mostly OK with the current level of tech and had no issue with even more. This is less?

How many times have we all heard (and most if not all realize) 10, even 20hp has a lot less to do with laptimes than talent. So is it really necessary to "dyno cert"?

Are really low lap times found in more HP/TQ or elsewhere like in track width, ride height, brake packages, etc? Meaning, is too much emphasis placed on HP/TQ compliance and too little every where else?

If a racer never breaches the top 5, what does it matter?

Rob Liebbe
01-21-2010, 09:15 PM
If a racer never breaches the top 5, what does it matter?

No offense to anyone, but maybe some are worrying that the top 5 have a horsepower advantage and want to worry about this instead of working on other performance areas.

In racing you get out of it what you put into it.

My advantage is lots of time in many different kinds of cars doing many different kinds of driving on many different tracks for many years.

I fully believe that it comes down to vehicle prep and seat time. Fortunately I have lots of experience with the Fox platform and lots of seat time. I still need bigger balls, especially while passing under braking.

Oh yeah - my ribs are healing up faster than expected. I'm starting to entertain the thought of making it to MSR-H. I'll have to convince my wife of this however and at least wait until I'm out of pain pills to see how I'm really feeling.

AllZWay
01-21-2010, 09:39 PM
[quote=mitchntx]
Oh yeah - my ribs are healing up faster than expected. I'm starting to entertain the thought of making it to MSR-H.

Good news... I hope you get well enough to do it.

mitchntx
01-21-2010, 09:43 PM
If a racer never breaches the top 5, what does it matter?

No offense to anyone, but maybe some are worrying that the top 5 have a horsepower advantage and want to worry about this instead of working on other performance areas.

In racing you get out of it what you put into it.

My advantage is lots of time in many different kinds of cars doing many different kinds of driving on many different tracks for many years.

I fully believe that it comes down to vehicle prep and seat time. Fortunately I have lots of experience with the Fox platform and lots of seat time. I still need bigger balls, especially while passing under braking.

Oh yeah - my ribs are healing up faster than expected. I'm starting to entertain the thought of making it to MSR-H. I'll have to convince my wife of this however and at least wait until I'm out of pain pills to see how I'm really feeling.

Can't disagree, generous words of wisdom and good news.

In Jerry's world, though, most of those front runners would be sealed and sent to the dyno.

ShadowBolt
01-22-2010, 08:31 AM
In Jerry's world, though, most of those front runners would be sealed and sent to the dyno.

When did I say that? I'm talking about random dyno testing. At first I thought only the front runners would need to do it but I can see it should be everyone.


JJ

mitchntx
01-22-2010, 10:56 AM
Ah ... I see.

Fbody383
01-22-2010, 12:34 PM
How many times have we all heard (and most if not all realize) 10, even 20hp has a lot less to do with laptimes than talent. So is it really necessary to "dyno cert"?

Are really low lap times found in more HP/TQ or elsewhere like in track width, ride height, brake packages, etc? Meaning, is too much emphasis placed on HP/TQ compliance and too little every where else?

I hate when Mitch is reasonable.

Have "we" ever had one of the top guys just restrict down 20hp and compare lap times?

I agree that other setup meausures extract the most out of the hp/tq performance but they also seem to be the easiest to police.

BryanL
01-24-2010, 08:50 PM
Rob-Which flavor you like? Vicodine or Hydrocodone? I'm sure I have some old ones sitting around. They work particulary well after a few BL's.

Mitch-it isn't just the top 5. While I might be fighting for a top 10 finish I don't want to be fighting a guy that isn't legal. I like to think the playing field is as level as possible from top to bottom.

Francis-Glenn pulled his restrictor at Hallet in the Fun Run deal and lap times didn't really change.

GlennCMC70
01-24-2010, 08:55 PM
Guys, the data logger days are coming. Once they are here, we will likely see the dyno requirement go away. Dont read into this, its just me making assumptions.

mitchntx
01-24-2010, 09:04 PM
Wait a minute ... I'm not advocating doing away with it or changing or keeping it the same. I'm Switzerland here ....

It was an interesting thought and probably deserves some healthy discussion.

If nothing else, it answers a lot of "why" questions that new guys always seem to ask.

Alien
01-25-2010, 09:03 AM
Guys, the data logger days are coming. Once they are here, we will likely see the dyno requirement go away. Dont read into this, its just me making assumptions.

I fail to see how this will work. What data is going to be read and will there be a hard number not to exceed? Won't this make 'tuning' a bit more difficult? Won't be a case of change timing/ fuel pressure / restrictor plate and make another pull. My local sherriff isn't too keen on racecars on the street.

GlennCMC70
01-25-2010, 09:09 AM
I never said you couldnt use the dyno to verify your power, but rather the requirement to do so could go away.
As for the parameter being used...... I dont think we are that far into it yet.
I know the MaxQ unit will compute HP. It requires data input of the car logged to be usefull.

For now, this is at a point of being nothing more than a fesability study kind of thing. At the first stage of this will be used to compair platform parity.

Fbody383
01-25-2010, 11:36 AM
Francis-Glenn pulled his restrictor at Hallet in the Fun
Run deal and lap times didn't really change.

See, proves that guys like me with limited skillz don't need no stinkin' dyno.

<dominus onus> BL I hereby certify you are Duece legal <et tu bu corborundum>

I was gonna add words, but in the end it would just complicate the ruleset - why are we fighting a really pretty good setup?

Going back to my hole now.

yeah, yeah... gonna try to get a dyno done Wednesday

Boudy
01-28-2010, 09:17 PM
I think you guys really need to be careful what you ask for.

This is a spec series and lucky for us every racer is allowed to prove his legality at the onset of every season as an alternative to tear downs, claim rules, or any of the other "pain in the ass systems" out there. To top it off you have the entire off season to get it done at your own convenience. I've never seen a more racer friendly enforcement system in any other racing venue. I can tell that some of you have never tossed your box of engine parts in the trailer at 2:30 am for the ride home after a tear down or towed your roller home after getting claimed for $350.

Secondly, an off-season dyno is far easier to accomplish than a random dyno draw mid-season when you may only have a few weeks to get it done prior to the next event and also need to coordinate witness personnel ect.

It doesn't matter if we agree openly that a few HP won't drop lap times but racers are racers and the engine will always be first on the list of mods in the search for lower times. It's never his ability, just ask him. The annual dyno simply protects us all from ourselves and does so without the additional headaches of other systems.

Opening dynos to every other year opens up the need for tighter enforcement at the track which none of us really want.

So again, "Please be careful of what you ask for!"

Boudy

David Love AI27
01-28-2010, 09:23 PM
so noted... will get dyno tomorrow... 8)

now need to decide if it is worth paying twice the price for cam-lock belts if they are only good for two years :?

mitchntx
01-28-2010, 09:46 PM
Been where Boudy describes.

It's not fun starting over with just a week to put it all back together or source another one and with only $250 (Robert's claim price is adjusted for inflation). 8)

kbrewmr2
01-28-2010, 10:11 PM
so noted... will get dyno tomorrow... 8)

now need to decide if it is worth paying twice the price for cam-lock belts if they are only good for two years :?

I avoid buying SFI belts for this reason - FIA all the way (or belts rated for both). These are what I have, good for what they cost and how long they're rated for ($149 + ship):

http://www.apexperformance.net/CartGenie/prod-895.htm

use Trackpedia-10 at checkout for 10% off (or maybe its Trackpedia10, I forget)

little late for this season maybe though :? your current belts are fine for Time Trials though :o :shock: 8)

GlennCMC70
01-28-2010, 11:09 PM
G-Forcebelts w/ cam-lock can be had in FIA form for $150.

David Love AI27
01-28-2010, 11:30 PM
G-Forcebelts w/ cam-lock can be had in FIA form for $150.
Isn't OG a new series sponser?

http://www.ogracing.com/catalog/2-Car/32-Harnesses-and-Restraints/item-1172-G-FORCE-PRO-SERIES-5-PT-CAMLOCK-HARNESS-SET

kbrewmr2
01-29-2010, 09:28 AM
they're the official supplier for NASA nationwide according to what I got in my license packet

never bought anything from them before so I can't comment good or bad on how their service is yet

ShadowBolt
01-29-2010, 10:06 AM
I think you guys really need to be careful what you ask for.

This is a spec series and lucky for us every racer is allowed to prove his legality at the onset of every season as an alternative to tear downs, claim rules, or any of the other "pain in the ass systems" out there. To top it off you have the entire off season to get it done at your own convenience. I've never seen a more racer friendly enforcement system in any other racing venue. I can tell that some of you have never tossed your box of engine parts in the trailer at 2:30 am for the ride home after a tear down or towed your roller home after getting claimed for $350.

Secondly, an off-season dyno is far easier to accomplish than a random dyno draw mid-season when you may only have a few weeks to get it done prior to the next event and also need to coordinate witness personnel ect.

It doesn't matter if we agree openly that a few HP won't drop lap times but racers are racers and the engine will always be first on the list of mods in the search for lower times. It's never his ability, just ask him. The annual dyno simply protects us all from ourselves and does so without the additional headaches of other systems.

Opening dynos to every other year opens up the need for tighter enforcement at the track which none of us really want.

So again, "Please be careful of what you ask for!"

Boudy


I agree about not wanting to have to teardown. What I'm saying is everyone or just one person, could change something on the car right after the new year dyno so I don't see how it does any good enforcing the rules. Never knowing when a random dyno could be thrown at you would force you to not cheat. Obviously I'm the only one that feels that way.


JJ

David Love AI27
01-29-2010, 10:21 AM
I think you guys really need to be careful what you ask for.

This is a spec series and lucky for us every racer is allowed to prove his legality at the onset of every season as an alternative to tear downs, claim rules, or any of the other "pain in the ass systems" out there. To top it off you have the entire off season to get it done at your own convenience. I've never seen a more racer friendly enforcement system in any other racing venue. I can tell that some of you have never tossed your box of engine parts in the trailer at 2:30 am for the ride home after a tear down or towed your roller home after getting claimed for $350.

Secondly, an off-season dyno is far easier to accomplish than a random dyno draw mid-season when you may only have a few weeks to get it done prior to the next event and also need to coordinate witness personnel ect.

It doesn't matter if we agree openly that a few HP won't drop lap times but racers are racers and the engine will always be first on the list of mods in the search for lower times. It's never his ability, just ask him. The annual dyno simply protects us all from ourselves and does so without the additional headaches of other systems.

Opening dynos to every other year opens up the need for tighter enforcement at the track which none of us really want.

So again, "Please be careful of what you ask for!"

Boudy


I agree about not wanting to have to teardown. What I'm saying is everyone or just one person, could change something on the car right after the new year dyno so I don't see how it does any good enforcing the rules. Never knowing when a random dyno could be thrown at you would force you to not cheat. Obviously I'm the only one that feels that way.


JJ

I'm behind you Jerry... The year before you came into the series we did just that... Dyno cost came out of the AI/CMC TEXAS fund... I remeber watching car numbers being drawn out of a hat, literally...

GlennCMC70
01-29-2010, 10:26 AM
..... and it worked great until we picked Jerry McNeils car out of the hat.
Who goes to Mississippi to verify it?

David Love AI27
01-29-2010, 10:36 AM
..... and it worked great until we picked Jerry McNeils car out of the hat.
Who goes to Mississippi to verify it?

Anybody that comes all the way from Mississippi deserves a "get out of jail, free" pass.. jk

he could have video taped it... you know "honor amongst theives"... :roll:

mitchntx
01-29-2010, 11:11 AM
I guess the part that kind of confuses and amuses me is ...

We don't think any one is cheating. So prove it.

:lol:

David Love AI27
01-29-2010, 11:15 AM
We don't think any one is cheating.

Speak for yourself... :wink:

RichardP
01-29-2010, 11:15 AM
I remeber watching car numbers being drawn out of a hat, literally...


Yea, that worked great. We would draw numbers out of a hat on Saturday evening so you had the rest of the weekend to put your car back to a legal condition...

I wish we would do more compliance dyno testing even though it's a huge pain in the ass. I also wish there were dynos at more race tracks. We don't even take advantage of the dyno at the track when there is one...


Richard P. (compliance checked twice in the past)

donovan
01-31-2010, 01:38 PM
so noted... will get dyno tomorrow... 8)

now need to decide if it is worth paying twice the price for cam-lock belts if they are only good for two years :?

I avoid buying SFI belts for this reason - FIA all the way (or belts rated for both). These are what I have, good for what they cost and how long they're rated for ($149 + ship):

http://www.apexperformance.net/CartGenie/prod-895.htm

use Trackpedia-10 at checkout for 10% off (or maybe its Trackpedia10, I forget)

little late for this season maybe though :? your current belts are fine for Time Trials though



:o :shock: 8)

I know a local retail shop that has them cheaper!

And they are usually cheaper than other retailers. :-)

DD