Make up track session

[Al Fernandez]

We are in a good position to get NASA Tx to give us an extra session at Hallett or ECR due to having lost the last race at MSR-C. Its not guaranteed, but Patterson is going to be taking up the cause and I believe he will succeed.

The questions is...how do we use that time? I can think of many options, each with good and bad aspects. We need to hear from you! How do we use an extra session, have fun, and not screw someone who isnt able to make the event with the extra session?

[Alien]

Whatever it is, I vote for it being at Hallet!

[Wirtz]

My inital thought is to be fair to those at MSR-C that might not be at Hallett, NASA should offer up an entry fee discount to those that lost a race on whatever their next entry is. To be honest I could use a bit of a smaller hit to the ol wallet.

Personally, I'm ok with the season ending race tally being one less than initally planned. That chance does not effect the numb er of drops you would get this year if I did my math right.

AND; no matter how it plays, thanks to NASA and anyone here that is working with them to offer up anything for the racers.

[ShadowBolt]

I talked to Mike about this last week and he ask if I thought the make-up race should be for everyone or just those that lost the race at Cresson. I told Mike that I thought everyone should be allowed to run but I have changed my mind. This make-up race should be a full points race as it should have been with just those that missed out at MSRC. The only issue would be if someone that was at Cresson does not make the Hallett event. I bet that is not a problem and everyone that was at MSRC will be at Hallett.


JJ

[Wirtz]

Thinking on it a bit more; if we got an extra session at some event; how would it work. Someone at that event that was not at MSR-C has to sit it out? Could be goofy at Hallett where we have some many others from out of region....

[ShadowBolt]

Thinking on it a bit more; if we got an extra session at some event; how would it work. Someone at that event that was not at MSR-C has to sit it out? Could be goofy at Hallett where we have some many others from out of region....

Jeff,

I don't see how it would be a problem to the other out of town racers since they would still be paying for and getting four races. I also have no problem with a discount instead but I would rather have the track time I lost. I could care less what event we do it at Hallett or TWS or ECR.


JJ

[michaelmosty]

Like Wirtz said, at least the # of drops will be the same if we get a make-up race or if we don't. Even if we don't get a make-up race, the 4th race at TWS in April will still give us the same # of races as last year making it 5 drops at the end of the year.
It would be cool if we got an extra race at Hallett. How kick ass would it be for the talk around the nation to be that the Hallett event would have 5 races!!! That is just a bonus for the out-of-towners.

My vote would be for a random draw from the hat. Put 10 scenarios in and see what we get. Car number, age, height, weight, coolest cowboy outfit, etc. :lol:

[AllZWay]

I am okay with not having it, but if we have it, I vote for a random draw of some sort like Michael suggested and probably not for points either.

Hallett would be cool to have an extra race also.

[Wirtz]

How kick ass would it be for the talk around the nation to be that the Hallett event would have 5 races!!! That is just a bonus for the out-of-towners.


I think that needs to be clarified as to the intent. My assumption is that the extra was just for the ones at MSR-C. Not everyone entered at Hallett. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Alien]

If it is for everyone that shows at Hallet, how about just call it the "true" championship race (if it occurs at Hallet). AI/CMC/CMC2 all as one class.

Grid based on an invert of overall qualifying time from previous qual session of the day. Standing start. Give the slowest guys a head start like bracket racing. Send a pair of cars every 2 seconds. Better yet! Have Todd stand in the middle of the two rows, and when he runs past your door you go! Should be about 2-3 seconds gap each row, but as he gets closer to the back of the pack and starts to tire, the gap grows :D

If it is for only those that who were at MSR-C, I see no reason not to do it as an invert of R3 for points.

If it's just a discount entry fee, I'm perfectly good with that too.

[mitchntx]

Gary ... stop. I almost choked.

How about an old fashioned LeMans style start? Make it interesting by making it a 3 legged helmet race, paired with the person you've gridded next to. A 3-legged helmet race is where each driver jams their foot into a really small, closed face helmet.

If there is an odd number, you run with Matt White.

[GlennCMC70]

There should be no assumed intent.
If its a points race, it really should be for those who missed a race at MSR-C. But its likely not everyone at MSR-C will be at Hallett. So thats not fair.
A fun race at Hallet (what better place than the "Summer Nats" to do this!) would be a great!
Its great we get some payback for missed track time. We should use it for the best benifit of all those in attendance.

I voted for fun. This will add to the draw that is Hallett. Something to talk about for years to come.

Other ideas are welcome. Those listed above are not the options we are limited to.

[GlennCMC70]

I'm liking what Gary almost did w/ it.

How about this......
We run our normal 4 races and 2 quals. We use the Nationals method of assigning points based on the finish position of each of the 4 races. For the 5th race, we grid based on points earned from the previous 4 races. The winner will be crowned the NASA TX Summer Nats Champ. The 5th race will not be a Texas points race, but will carry a title you can take hiome w/ you. Its a National style event and a regional event all rolled into one. We can fab up a trophy.

Thoughts?

[Fbody383]

The winner will be crowned the NASA TX Summer Nats Champ. The 5th race will not be a Texas points race, but will carry a title you can take hiome w/ you.

I kinda like that.

What about a combined CMC/2 rolling start with all starting positions drawn at random?

"Fairest" economics would be free session for those that were at MSR and nominal charge for the rest of us.

[ShadowBolt]

How kick ass would it be for the talk around the nation to be that the Hallett event would have 5 races!!! That is just a bonus for the out-of-towners.


I think that needs to be clarified as to the intent. My assumption is that the extra was just for the ones at MSR-C. Not everyone entered at Hallett. Maybe I'm wrong.

I'm with Jeff on this. It should only be the guys that lost time at MSRC. That is why they are talking about doing this. Not to have an extra race just to have one. It was supposed to give back to the guys that lost a race that they paid for. If that is not what we are doing then we should have a fifth race every weekend. Now some are trying to turn it into a Summer Nationals race. I like the idea of a Summer National race but that does not pay back the guys that lost a race at MSRC.
If you are going to take a vote it should only be voted on by racers that were at Cresson.

Glenn,
Bet you $50.00 everyone that was at Cresson will be at Hallett. If not I agree it would not be fair.

JJ

[Al Fernandez]

but as he gets closer to the back of the pack and starts to tire, the gap grows
:lol: :lol: I'd be afraid of the gap growing to infinity as Todd pulls a Homer Simpson and collapses on the track.

Getting a discount will be more difficult I would assume, but we can certainly try if that's the majority perspective. I'll add that as an option.

No intent at this point other than to keep the championship fair and enable the best bang for your racing buck. Keep the thoughts flowing!

[GlennCMC70]

I'll take that bet, but not your money.
Greg Hughs will likely not make Hallett. Put the money on my tab.

[mitchntx]

How about marketing to the other regions that there will be a bonus race ... 5 races in a weekend. In some regions, that's two more than they get already. I bet some of the "out-of-towners" who are on the fence, might make the trip.

As far as only allowing the racers who raced at MSR-C the extra time, as long as it doesn't mess with the season ending points, what difference does it make?

IMHO ... this should have been negotiated behind closed doors and announced at Hallett.

Now we have 3 months of hating to endure. :roll:

[rleng1]

I'm pretty sure Wade told me that he would not be able to make Hallet as well. He is going for ROTY as well so a 5th points race at Hallet would not be fair to him.
I like the Summer Nats championship race....inverted start? :roll:

[kbrewmr2]

that Nationals style race at Hallett would be great to watch 8)

[GlennCMC70]

Also, there is never a guarantee of track time. So there is no promise of a missed race ever being made up. NASA is offering to give us something they dont really have to. So if this ever happens again, dont expect the same thing to happen.

[GlennCMC70]

I'm pretty sure Wade told me that he would not be able to make Hallet as well. He is going for ROTY as well so a 5th points race at Hallet would not be fair to him.
I like the Summer Nats championship race....inverted start? :roll:

We could flip a coin.

[Wirtz]

Divide the ideas. One is what could be done for the guys that lost out at MSR-C. A totally different idea would be what to do with the Hallett event. I don't see any reason why they need to be linked.

Discount the entry for someones next event. I see no reason why that would not be something NASA can manage. Good, now that's done...

What kind of coolness can we come up with for Hallett? The idea of a 5th race, or a fun race seems like it should be kind of easy right? Last year they ran the grudge race as it was. So the time in schedule should not be at issue.... I seem to remember that only a couple of guys entered the grudge race.

And again, I'm glad any of this is even being discussed :)

Pah!

[mitchntx]

So is the issue lost track time or is it track time you paid for didn't get and want back?

If it's the latter and if it matters not in the points race, what difference does it make who ALL is on grid during this time. If you get yours you get it.

From a marketing standpoint, regardless of the sound reasoning, the segregating of the haves and the have nots will be viewed as a bunch of spoiled brats not wanting to share.

I'm just sayin'

[GlennCMC70]

Matt, you have an opinion you want to share about how we are all going about this wrong?

[BlueFirePony]

If NASA can swing it I think the high road on this would be to offer folks who missed out at MSR-C to get a discount to Hallet or any subsequent race this year (only) AND have a non-points fun session for all cars (whether they were at MSR-C or not) at Hallet - Time Trial style 3 laps and off with some silly $5 trophy for the top in each class.

20 cars per run, on and off - next 20 go.

And since I could not get the charity race going for TWS, how about everyone that wants to run the fun race brings a can of food or other non-perishable item as their entry fee.

Just sayin' ;)

[rleng1]

Last year at Hallet, the AI/CMC class put on a great show. The Grudge race was outstanding, especially when Patterson decided to do burn outs at the top of the Bitch.
However, the other races were close fought, I would expect nothing but fantastic this year.
At least NASA TX realizes that we and a few other groups did lose track time, though it was out of their control, and they are trying to make it right for us. You have to appreciate that.
We will be having other regions participate at Hallet. Let's put on a show and let them know why the best racers are in the state of TEXAS.
Summer Nationals just sounds cool to me.

[AI#97]

Matt, you have an opinion you want to share about how we are all going about this wrong?

Sure, here is how I see it....had it been lightning and rain, a safety issue, that caused the last race to be cancelled, would you be asking for money back or another race? How about if a driver was being cut of a car or airlifted out or dead...?

You seem so cavalier, why don't you ask the EVO driver for your money's worth?

Don't see what has changed in 4 years that makes you guys feel entitled to 4 races per weekend. Maybe it's obamacare..., maybe it's ego....but I don't see ANYTHING in the CCR's about Guaranteeing ANY amount of track time....? but those are just guidelines anyway right?

Yeah, it sucks you guys lost the 4th race of the weekend, but things happen and this group isn't immune either.

To me, it seems like you're getting a little big for your britches. So who runs NASATX anyway....? It seems like you think YOU do....?

[GlennCMC70]

If your talking to me, let me responde.
I think I already said in a previous post that there is not 100% quarantee of 4 races. I also do not support a refund of lost track time.
It also wasnt my idea of making up the lost track time, it was the Assistant Race Director. The extra track time was asked for, not demanded.
But get this..... we as Series Directors thought it would be best to see what the racers thought about how thier track time should be used.
Wow! Customer Service 101 seems to me.
As for entitlement to 4 races... Well I recall you being one of many wanting to not miss the 2nd race of the day due to darkness at MSR-H. You seem to have that same "entitlement" problem we all have.

Seems your mis-informed there Matt.

[AI#97]

not going there.

[GlennCMC70]

not going there.

How convenient. :roll:

[Todd Covini]

C'mon guys...all good points, but let's not bitch at each other.
Whether the complaint is no customer service in one thread...or in another, it's too much customer service/entitlement.

It just gets old listening to bitchin'.

Everyone wants what is best for the series...please let's keep it constructive.
+++++++++

My opinion?
a) we shouldn't expect a refund or make-up session...things happen outside our control, and our points system already takes variation in the # of races per weekend into account. Let it ride....
b) it's awesome that Mike and others are seeking to "make good" on it.
c) I love Mitch's idea to throw the extra time into the Hallett promotion...and really send a shockwave thru the AI/CMC nation that you'll get 5 races at the SummerNationals!!! :-)

....now about using me as a starter...you really think I'd stand between rows on the start of an AI/CMC race at Hallett?? Have you ever SEEN videos of the start of races at Hallet???

Besides....this year, the car count is going to be so high at Hallett that I won't be able to make it to the back of the pack unless I'm on something motorized.

-=- Todd

[Wade]

I was extremely disappointed to have missed the 4th race at MSRC...and of course the 2nd and 3rd races as well :-( Wish I could find some way to pin those on the EVO driver, but a blown up trans did me in. I have emailed NASATX and requested a one day credit (the diff between $285 one day reg and $385 two day reg) for the next event that I attend. If I get a hundred bucks credit towards TWS...AWESOME. If not, so be it. I'll still be it TWS, just a hundred bucks lighter.

Since the word is out, I most likely will NOT be at Hallett due to a fellow car enthusiast scheduling his wedding on that weekend in Houston. I blame her not him! I am not at all happy with having used two of my drops already, and seeing 4 more go away at Hallett! Lucky rookies get 7 drops, but that is cutting it waaay to close. I'm gunning for Randy! (and Wayne?!)

[michaelmosty]

Ok, do we need to put up a collection for Todd to ride a segway for the start of the fun-run race?

[Boudy]

If they offer up a make-up session then cuddos to NASA-TX, much appreciated. They certainly don't owe a refund so anything they give is and should be considered Lagniappe.

On the other hand, I see an idea developing. If NASA-TX feels at all froggy then it's probably in their financial best interest to offer a 5th AI/CMC race to attract more cars. Sure, we would be the beneficiary but we are also the ones who began dragging cars from other regions to Hallett to begin with and I do hope NASA-TX is able to reap some reward.

Finally, I like the idea of some sort of fun run. Swap cars, positions... hell I don't care, let's just have fun.

BTW: 10 gallons of Rita lasted less than 2 hours last year.(and I don't mix that shit for light weights...) Guess I'll have to bring more this time. :lol: :lol:

Boudy

[mitchntx]

c) I love Mitch's idea to throw the extra time into the Hallett promotion...and really send a shockwave thru the AI/CMC nation that you'll get 5 races at the SummerNationals!!! :-)

-=- Todd

Dammit Todd. You always come in here and flex you freaking muscles, putting people down and calling them out. I'm sick of it man. You have pissed me off, for the last time.

So, I qui ......

Oh ... wait ...

You agree with me?

Nevermind ...

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~madeira/Mackie%20The%20Star/Nirvana%20-%20Nevermind.JPG

[AllZWay]

If they offer up a make-up session then cuddos to NASA-TX, much appreciated. They certainly don't owe a refund so anything they give is and should be considered Lagniappe.

On the other hand, I see an idea developing. If NASA-TX feels at all froggy then it's probably in their financial best interest to offer a 5th AI/CMC race to attract more cars. Sure, we would be the beneficiary but we are also the ones who began dragging cars from other regions to Hallett to begin with and I do hope NASA-TX is able to reap some reward.

Finally, I like the idea of some sort of fun run. Swap cars, positions... hell I don't care, let's just have fun.

BTW: 10 gallons of Rita lasted less than 2 hours last year.(and I don't mix that shit for light weights...) Guess I'll have to bring more this time. :lol: :lol:

Boudy

I am completely with Boudy here.... I certainly never expect to get a make up session. As they say ...Boys this is racing and crap happens.

But if they do... I still think Hallett is the place and could be used as a draw to bring more cars and do something fun and different... also the Hallet way. No points...just fun.

[ShadowBolt]

I am in the minority here. I love the idea of an extra race at Hallett but don't call it a make-up to those that lost a race at MSRC.

I do want to make sure Mike knows how much I appreciate his efforts. I do think it has gotten all fubared up from his orignal intent.

THANKS MIKE for looking out for us!


JJ

[jeremiahkellam]

I vote we extend the race lengths at Hallett. It will give everyone more track time without stressing the schedule. I don't know if the extended time at MSR-C was just a "one-off" or if we are doing that at every event, but longer races will attract more racers and benefit the group and NASA TX as well.

Other than that, I didn't expect anything in return, in total, we lost less than 10 min of track time over a typical weekend.

Either way... WAY TO GO MIKE!! Thanks for the effort.

[Fbody383]

Ok, do we need to put up a collection for Todd to ride a segway for the start of the fun-run race?

Camry - it's as fast as a segway.

Boudy - bring more mix to Hallett, I don't want to go to sleep thirsty.

Mike Rocks!

[MikeP99Z]

All:

Good points stated in the above threads. Here’s where I stand on a few things:

1. There is no guarantee of X track time or races during any weekend, especially due to unforeseen circumstances.

2. There won’t be a “credit” or discount for the folks in Groups A, B, C, D, and G that lost track time. See #1. (Note: The SCCA rule is that if you turn 1 lap on the racetrack, then that counts for your entry fee – no refunds/discounts/makeups.)

3. There is no way to repeat the exact entrant list from MSRC. If there is an additional “race”, then it won’t be for points.

4. There are ongoing discussions with Shannon regarding getting the race Groups that lost a race an additional 20 minutes at one event later this year, but not at the same event. Hallett is a candidate for Group D, ECR is a candidate for Group G, and maybe some extra time for Group C at TWS. The discussions will continue next week, they are dealing with the Texas Mile from today through Sunday. She is being very cordial in hearing me out regarding makeup track time, but there are no guarantees at this point.

5. I’m not going to exclude anyone from this track time at the future event – whether it turns out to be an additional race, or extended session time – if you are there great, if not, I’ll buy you a beer.

If 12 of the 20 entrants at MSRC show up at Hallett, and we have 40 entrants at Hallett, I’m not going out on track to race with 11 folks while the other 28 watch. Personally, I see it as 20 of us purchased the keg and brought it to a 40 person party. I’m not going to have 12 people sit in Al’s trailer drinking the beer while the other 28 hit golf balls at the side of Al’s trailer (honest Mr. Insurance guy, it’s hail damage). So, it’s an “All for 1” scenario.

So…

20 minutes of track time at a future event (race, practice, whatever). You can also consider four 30-min races rather than two 30-min and two 20-min races – your choice as a Group. I like the 5th race scenario for Hallett.

No points.

No exclusions.

This has been requested and is being considered, but keep in mind that there are more people involved than just Group D. No guarantees, See #1.

There is no money involved, just time. If you want to put money in the hat for the 5th race, consider a charity collection.

Is that cool?

[mitchntx]

hit golf balls at the side of Al’s trailer


Focus, Mike.

Keep the Saturday night activities for another thread.

[MikeP99Z]

I don't know if the extended time at MSR-C was just a "one-off" or if we are doing that at every event,

It is for every event.

[rleng1]

Amen brother Mike.
Where can I get a cat?

[rleng1]

Amen brother Mike.
Where can I get a cat?

[Todd Covini]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_LlfXWxcpJyU/SMPfoRM9DPI/AAAAAAAAI7M/DhwkVptDPDQ/s320/ragdoll-twins.jpg

[nasa-rm]

Regardless of where you do it, consider using the pursuit format.

We do them about once a year as a bonus thing and our guys (well, at least most) love them. The grid is setup inverted with the slowest cars up front and the fastest trying to catch them. Fastest time from prior points races in the weekend are used so there's no sandbagging.

I can help Cheryl and Kathy with setting the grid. Then, all you need is someone with a stopwatch to release from head of pit lane.

[rpoz27]

Australian chases are fun. I set one up once a year for BMWCCA races and the racers love it.

[Al Fernandez]

Thanks everyone for your comments.

Obtaining a credit or refund was never one of our goals, though we did consider it once several folks commented on it. Rather, our goal was to get some extra track time and see what folks would enjoy the most.

There were plenty of votes in favor of doing something different than a standard points race. In discussions w/NASA we came to the conclusion that longer track sessions would be much easier for them to absorb than additional sessions. This, coupled with comments around a nationals style weekend is how we solidified the Hallett format.

Again, thanks for your comments.