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michaelmosty
04-17-2010, 04:31 PM
What kind of battery box are y'all using?
Cheap plastic one, expensive aluminum one, expensive steel one, or homemade?

I have to change mine out before TWS and the only thing I had laying around was a cheap plastic one but there isn't enough room (box is too narrow) for the all-thread hold downs.
The only thing I have found on the internet are more plastic boxes or $100 aluminum or steel boxes.

mitchntx
04-17-2010, 05:00 PM
O'Reilly's has a couple different sizes of plastic marine enclosures.

The smaller of the two is extremely tight for our sized batteries.

Neither are over $20.

jeremiahkellam
04-17-2010, 06:12 PM
Just throw it in a brown paper bag, You'll be fine...! :wink:

Rob Liebbe
04-17-2010, 06:29 PM
I'm using the large one from Oreiley's.

GlennCMC70
04-17-2010, 07:05 PM
I use a metal frame from a dirt track shop w/ the same plastic box that Mitch and Rob mentioned. There are two sizes. Get the larger one.

way2neary
04-17-2010, 09:57 PM
My car came with an aluminum battery box... Dang, I didn't know the thing was $100... I defintely would've gone with another option.

AllZWay
04-19-2010, 08:12 AM
I use a metal frame from a dirt track shop w/ the same plastic box that Mitch and Rob mentioned. There are two sizes. Get the larger one.

Same here... metal frame from Coleman's and then a cheap plastic box.

cjlmlml
04-19-2010, 08:24 AM
I have a big metal one in the garage you can have cheap,


took out of the car when I went with the mini battery , just want it out of the garage

michaelmosty
04-19-2010, 10:11 AM
I have a big metal one in the garage you can have cheap,


took out of the car when I went with the mini battery , just want it out of the garage
That sounds good.
I looked at O'Reilly but both sizes are only 7.5" wide. I have a group 34 battery that is right at the same depth so I'd have to relocate the hold downs to the outer ends of the battery. I would like to keep the same mounting setup and backing plate if possible.

RichardP
04-19-2010, 10:42 AM
If you are doing battery stuff, glancing at the CCR, section 18.8, might be a good idea. Seems to be the most violated/ignored rule in the book...


Richard P.

GlennCMC70
04-19-2010, 02:01 PM
I strap the battery from end to end, not side to side for that reason.

There is no requirement for the allthread and strap to be inside the box.

michaelmosty
04-19-2010, 02:31 PM
I strap the battery from end to end, not side to side for that reason.

There is no requirement for the allthread and strap to be inside the box.
Shouldn't the battery be secured inside the box?
A secured box with a battery moving around inside seems odd.

mitchntx
04-19-2010, 02:45 PM
On the last couple cars ...

I have all thread on either end of the battery, going through the box and then through the body.

1/8" x 2" strap as a backing plate underneath the car.

Then a metal strap across the top of the battery secured with wingnuts on the all thread.

So the battery is bolted to the car and sandwiches the box between the two.

The lid is then secured with the nylon strap.

Rob Liebbe
04-19-2010, 03:03 PM
On the last couple cars ...

I have all thread on either end of the battery, going through the box and then through the body.

1/8" x 2" strap as a backing plate underneath the car.

Then a metal strap across the top of the battery secured with wingnuts on the all thread.

So the battery is bolted to the car and sandwiches the box between the two.

The lid is then secured with the nylon strap.

Similar to mine - I may have actually copied Mitch's setup, but definitely not Glenn's. 8)

GlennCMC70
04-19-2010, 03:45 PM
I strap the battery from end to end, not side to side for that reason.

There is no requirement for the allthread and strap to be inside the box.
Shouldn't the battery be secured inside the box?
A secured box with a battery moving around inside seems odd.

I guess I gotta draw you a picture.
You knotch the box so the strap sits on top of the battery and extends outside the box a few inches. drill holes in the ends and run 3/8" allthread down to the body. I would also sleeve the allthread w/ some tubing to limit how tight you can pull the strap down on the battery and to prevent you from pulling the floor up to the strap. I would also still bolt the box down to the floor.
As I said, you dont have to keep the strap inside the box.

The big thing to realize here is the box is there to COVER the battery. Its not there to keep it in place. That is what the battery strap is for. Plastic non-conductive box's are my preference.

GlennCMC70
04-19-2010, 03:46 PM
On the last couple cars ...

I have all thread on either end of the battery, going through the box and then through the body.

1/8" x 2" strap as a backing plate underneath the car.

Then a metal strap across the top of the battery secured with wingnuts on the all thread.

So the battery is bolted to the car and sandwiches the box between the two.

The lid is then secured with the nylon strap.

Similar to mine - I may have actually copied Mitch's setup, but definitely not Glenn's. 8)

Thats OK Rob, Mitch knows who built his box. :wink:

michaelmosty
04-19-2010, 03:56 PM
Gotcha Glenn, I understand that way now.
I'm picking up the box from Chris tomorrow and will try to get it to work. If not, I'll rig up a bracket with the plastic box I have.

GlennCMC70
04-19-2010, 04:16 PM
While on the subject. I know of a few directors who are not happy w/ some of the 100 lb battery box's out there in CMC. I'll be proposing in the off season that those home built box's be disallowed and only commercialy available boxes will be allowed. Existing home built box's will have to be approved by a series director. Again, I will be proposing this at the end of 2010.
You have those who took advantage of the battery relocation rule and used it as an oppertunity to violate the ballast placement rule to thank for this. If you havent done this, you will likely not have anything to worry about.

michaelmosty
04-19-2010, 04:33 PM
While on the subject. I know of a few directors who are not happy w/ some of the 100 lb battery box's out there in CMC. I'll be proposing in the off season that those home built box's be disallowed and only commercialy available boxes will be allowed. Existing home built box's will have to be approved by a series director. Again, I will be proposing this at the end of 2010.
You have those who took advantage of the battery relocation rule and used it as an oppertunity to violate the ballast placement rule to thank for this. If you havent done this, you will likely not have anything to worry about.
For those that don't know, I'm the one that took advantage of the rule. I have been cheating the system since I started racing 5 years ago. :roll: As soon as it was addressed to me that I needed to change it I am now doing so. I have not tried to hide this at all and have even talked about it on the national CMC forum. BTW, 100 lbs. is a little exaggerated.

Since this is an issue, why not address it formally now instead of at the end of the year. If there are other people out there with 100, 50, or even 15 lb. battery boxes they need to be addressed now and not at the end of the year.
The same can be said for cool-shirt brackets. I was told the only purpose of a battery box or cool-shirt bracket is to hold that item and not add additional weight. These need to be addressed immediately so revisions can be made to the current rules!

GlennCMC70
04-19-2010, 04:42 PM
While on the subject. I know of a few directors who are not happy w/ some of the 100 lb battery box's out there in CMC. I'll be proposing in the off season that those home built box's be disallowed and only commercialy available boxes will be allowed. Existing home built box's will have to be approved by a series director. Again, I will be proposing this at the end of 2010.
You have those who took advantage of the battery relocation rule and used it as an oppertunity to violate the ballast placement rule to thank for this. If you havent done this, you will likely not have anything to worry about.
For those that don't know, I'm the one that took advantage of the rule. I have been cheating the system since I started racing 5 years ago. :roll: As soon as it was addressed to me that I needed to change it I am now doing so. I have not tried to hide this at all and have even talked about it on the national CMC forum. BTW, 100 lbs. is a little exaggerated.

Since this is an issue, why not address it formally now instead of at the end of the year. If there are other people out there with 100, 50, or even 15 lb. battery boxes they need to be addressed now and not at the end of the year.
The same can be said for cool-shirt brackets. I was told the only purpose of a battery box or cool-shirt bracket is to hold that item and not add additional weight. These need to be addressed immediately so revisions can be made to the current rules!

I cant say I knew this affected you. I do know of others though.
As for addressing it now, I would love to. I've been told in the last 24 hrs that rules changes need to be addressed in the off season. So that is how I'm planning to deal w/ it. If it was up to me, I would have every box checked at TWS and required to be fixed by years end to allow your points to be kept. But its not up to me. My pointing this out in your thread is a total coincidence. Good of you to man up about it, but I didnt have you in mind w/ this.

The intent of this rule is to allow battery relocation to a safer place than the nose of the car. Doing so w/ a box made of 1" steel plate is going beyond the intent of CMC's allowance of relocation.

michaelmosty
04-19-2010, 05:03 PM
I didn't officially man up. Al and I talked about earlier this year and it was agreed that I would change it before TWS. If there are other people (I'm not sure if I am the only one) that haven't been told to change the same issue, then it would definitely piss me off.

My $.02 on waiting until the end of the year to make a rule change: that is total crap. If something is important enough to make a racer change something on his car now then it needs to be addressed now and not pushed under the rug until the end of the year.

Rob Liebbe
04-19-2010, 05:03 PM
Kudos for the creative interpretation of the rules as they are currently written. I wouldn't change it until the rules state so or you get a fix-it-ticket.

AllZWay
04-19-2010, 05:17 PM
For those that don't know,

You cheating SOB.... :lol:

Acutally, I think that nuclear containment box you called a battery box was in pretty plain sight. :P

mitchntx
04-19-2010, 05:46 PM
As for addressing it now, I would love to. I've been told in the last 24 hrs that rules changes need to be addressed in the off season.


So addressing 20 issues over a six week period is better than one or two a month throughout the year?

No wonder some stuff gets shuffled through so easily and other stuff gets a cursory look.

You do realize that implementation can be deffered till the next year, right? A decision can be made now and made effective for the 2011 season. Toyo tire rules isn't the best of models to pattern.

Heaven forbid that the racers that are affected can address issues as they go as opposed cobbling something together during the off season instead of spending Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays with family.

GlennCMC70
04-19-2010, 08:27 PM
As for addressing it now, I would love to. I've been told in the last 24 hrs that rules changes need to be addressed in the off season.


So addressing 20 issues over a six week period is better than one or two a month throughout the year?

No wonder some stuff gets shuffled through so easily and other stuff gets a cursory look.

You do realize that implementation can be deffered till the next year, right? A decision can be made now and made effective for the 2011 season. Toyo tire rules isn't the best of models to pattern.

Heaven forbid that the racers that are affected can address issues as they go as opposed cobbling something together during the off season instead of spending Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays with family.

I see you quoted me, but I assume you are not addressing me. We are on the same side of the fence this time.

jeffburch
04-19-2010, 09:24 PM
...

Boudy
04-19-2010, 09:48 PM
The intent of this rule is to allow battery relocation to a safer place than the nose of the car.

YES! A safer place than under the hood to mount ones crush-able acid vessel is next to the driver in an impale-able plastic container!:evil: Honestly, where do you come up with some of this... stuff? :roll:

My Competition Engineering C4029 battery box is 28.5 lbs and is the safest box I could find to mount a battery next to my acid sensitive ass. In addition I purchased a light weight gel cell as it is safer than liquid acid which negates my steel box down within 10 lbs of any other 50 lb battery in the same location. Now Al Fernandez asked me to remove it which I did without argument or debate. However, I am looking for another alternative. Sure I'm opposed to 1" plates and such but you have elevated my personal level of exposure to risk in this area.

My sub frame connectors were installed to the manufacture's instructions. I was asked to cut the point where the center of the bar was attached the floor pan. Now if any of the 4 attachment points break then be bar becomes a vaulting pole, impales my cockpit, or cleanly breaks off on the other end. I have a 33% chance for that failure to end well for me. You have elevated my personal level of exposure to risk in this area.

Quite honestly, areas in our rules set keep cropping up and reasoning/justifications given just don't add up to more than hog wash.

I'm fine with enforcement but more enforcement means that additional attention needs to be placed on our rules as a whole this year to ensure that intents are still valid and that enforcement doesn't expose competitors to elevated levels of risk. In 2 consecutive events you have taken away from my cars safety in 2 areas. Neither case did I have a performance advantage.

My long winded point, "Enforcement is great as long as you've got your shit straight!"

Boudy

GlennCMC70
04-19-2010, 09:53 PM
The intent of this rule is to allow battery relocation to a safer place than the nose of the car.

YES! A safer place than under the hood to mount ones crush-able acid vessel is next to the driver in an impale-able plastic container!:evil: Honestly, where do you come up with some of this... stuff? :roll:

My Competition Engineering C4029 battery box is 28.5 lbs and is the safest box I could find to mount a battery next to my acid sensitive ass. In addition I purchased a light weight gel cell as it is safer than liquid acid which negates my steel box down within 10 lbs of any other 50 lb battery in the same location. Now Al Fernandez asked me to remove it which I did without argument or debate. However, I am looking for another alternative. Sure I'm opposed to 1" plates and such but you have elevated my personal level of exposure to risk in this area.

My sub frame connectors were installed to the manufacture's instructions. I was asked to cut the point where the center of the bar was attached the floor pan. Now if any of the 4 attachment points break then be bar becomes a vaulting pole, impales my cockpit, or cleanly breaks off on the other end. I have a 33% chance for that failure to end well for me. You have elevated my personal level of exposure to risk in this area.

Quite honestly, areas in our rules set keep cropping up and reasoning/justifications given just don't add up to more than hog wash.

I'm fine with enforcement but more enforcement means that additional attention needs to be placed on our rules as a whole this year to ensure that intents are still valid and that enforcement doesn't expose competitors to elevated levels of risk. In 2 consecutive events you have taken away from my cars safety in 2 areas. Neither case did I have a performance advantage.

My long winded point, "Enforcement is great as long as you've got your shit straight!"

Boudy

Boudy

There is no reason you should have been required to remove your box. I know what box you have, and it should be legal.
As for my preference of a plastic box, its not located next to me.

As for your sub-frame connectors.. There are plenty of sub's for a 4th gen that are not CMC legal. Sorry you made a back pick.

Take my call.

GlennCMC70
04-19-2010, 10:30 PM
Me and Robert just talked.
His battery box is legal. I've told him to re-install it.
I'll take care of this.

michaelmosty
04-19-2010, 10:59 PM
......
jb
Haha, JB you crack me up.
If something is bothering you then say just come out and say it!!
From what you just said you think Fox cars, 3rd gens, SN95's, LT1 4th gens, SN99's, LS1 4th gens, and S197 are all equal correct?
The fact of the matter is that the cars all have advantages and disadvantages. That is what the current rules are working to correct.

You seriously think a 91 Camaro or 91 Mustang should be the exact same weight and hp as an 08 Mustang?

Boudy
04-19-2010, 10:59 PM
We did.
He did and I will.
I'm sure he will.

As for as sub-frame connectors, they are just as likely to become dislodged and launch you as a drive-shaft which requires at least a hoop. Also, it's more likely to impale the cockpit than a drive-shaft. Scary to me...

Glenn, is it legal to chain or hoop it for safety if it does not serve as an attachment point?

Boudy

Boudy
04-19-2010, 11:15 PM
Now it's main hoops in the trunk. BFD. Grow 100#'s and maybe a pair.
CMC should be the same weight and power over the same tire but ya'll have chosen so many cans of worms to open up you'll never agree on anything again.
F'ing laugh my ass off.
What was bubba gump racing is now just another wallet revolving charge account chase. Grand Am envy. Just out-rule one another into bankruptcy. Beg borrow and borrow some more.
Hotel rooms and 40' motorhomes.
I got into cmc because I thought I could afford it. I couldn't have been more wrong.


jb
Haha, JB you crack me up.
If something is bothering you then say just come out and say it!!
From what you just said you think Fox cars, 3rd gens, SN95's, LT1 4th gens, SN99's, LS1 4th gens, and S197 are all equal correct?
The fact of the matter is that the cars all have advantages and disadvantages. That is what the current rules are working to correct.

You seriously think a 91 Camaro or 91 Mustang should be the exact same weight and hp as an 08 Mustang?

Nope! I'm fairly certain that he thinks '08 Mustangs should not be allowed to race CMC at all.

Boudy

mitchntx
04-20-2010, 03:53 AM
Glenn, is it legal to chain or hoop it for safety if it does not serve as an attachment point?

Boudy

You mean something like an anchor chain from a 100' yatch?
Gotta love "creative interpretation" ...

Like it or not, the series is moving from the grassroots, mom&pop style to a more sensitive and competitive environment.

Every time I walk over to Mosty's car, he throws a car cover over it. Robert has his daughter run over his car just so tech can't inspect track width. Jerry has an ejectable front nose so that spoiler clearances can't be checked ... see how uber-competitive it's getting?

8)

marshall_mosty
04-20-2010, 06:57 AM
Kudos for the creative interpretation of the rules as they are currently written. I wouldn't change it until the rules state so or you get a fix-it-ticket.
I'm kinda sorry that the 45 minutes of pure welding and the super crazy sunburn I got from it is now going to be a boat anchor. That "box" was really a work of art...

One thing that I have talked to Michael about it for the CMC power's to be to CLEARLY state what is within the interpretation of the rules. Written rules are easy to comply with. Interpretation of the class intentions are difficult at best. Either set a weight limit that can easily be checked and verified on the NASA scales and then stamped into the box (like a roll cage number), but be it the actual weight of the box, lid, etc.

One thing that may be missed here is the necessity for a beefy underplate under the floor of the car to distribute the load of a 35lb battery in an 80G crash. Think 35*80= 2800lbs pulling on the floor.

Michael's "box" has a 1/8" plate the size of the lid on the underside of the floor. We felt that this was more than adequate to load enough floor surface area to keep the beheamouth in check during a crash. So, if there is a weight limit, don't count the mounting strap, but say that it can be no more than A" x B" and no thicker than .XXX" thick steel to keep people from having a 1" thick mounting plate.

**rant on**
All these CMC interpretations are what make me so glad I'm in AI. I was really thinking of building a CMC-2 car last year by parting out my AI car so I could have some closer racing than what we have in AI (due primarily to car count), but I'm glad I changed my mind so that I can do what I want, think creatively, and be patted on the back for thinking outside the box and not be ostracized for it. **rant off**

GlennCMC70
04-20-2010, 07:05 AM
Michaels car was not the one being refered to w/ the 1" plate comment.

RichardP
04-20-2010, 09:16 AM
Since this thread was started for battery questions, I would like to toss in my $.02 on battery safety.

For safely securing a battery in a race car, I prefer a diagonal mount for strength and stability. Something like this in concept:
http://www.colemanracing.com/store/images/full/985-101.jpg

I like the battery to be secured in a plastic box incase the battery does shift or the box does get hit/crushed from the outside. Even with the terminals independently covered inside the box (per the rules), the chance of shorting out on a metal box and causing a fire is something I like to avoid.

I like the battery to be located inside the cage structure (rather than in the front or in the far rear of the car) to minimize the chance of the battery being crushed in an impact.

If the rules allow, I prefer a small, light weight battery to minimize the chance of the battery becoming dislodged in a heavy impact.

I also prefer a gell cell or dry cell battery so I don’t have the possibility of an acid spill.

I prefer a starter solenoid to be mounted to a solid structure right next to the battery to minimize the length of unfused constantly hot wire.

Most of this stuff isn’t required by the rules. It’s just my opinion on how to make a safe system within the allowed rules…

Richard P.

mitchntx
04-20-2010, 09:24 AM
To be 100% safe, eliminate batteries altogether. Push start, baby!

RichardP
04-20-2010, 09:30 AM
One thing that may be missed here is the necessity for a beefy underplate under the floor of the car to distribute the load of a 35lb battery in an 80G crash. Think 35*80= 2800lbs pulling on the floor.

This is an excellent point. It is also especially true if your battery box weighs more than the battery...



All these CMC interpretations are what make me so glad I'm in AI.

I'm confused by this statement??? AI has restrictions on ballast and an excessive battery box skirts the AI rules just as much as it does CMC rules.

Richard P.

David Love AI27
04-20-2010, 09:41 AM
CMC should be the same weight and power over the same tire but ya'll have chosen so many cans of worms to open up you'll never agree on anything again.

jb

From what you just said you think Fox cars, 3rd gens, SN95's, LT1 4th gens, SN99's, LS1 4th gens, and S197 are all equal correct?
The fact of the matter is that the cars all have advantages and disadvantages. That is what the current rules are working to correct.

You seriously think a 91 Camaro or 91 Mustang should be the exact same weight and hp as an 08 Mustang?

[/quote]

If you wanna race, read the f@cking rules, They are posted on the internet and available to anybody. Do your research and find or build a car that fits the existing rules. Don't say "I have a 08 Mustang and I want the series to change the rules to fit my car", thats not fair to those already invested in the series.

AND

It should be a level playing field as far as weight/hp, PERIOD...

I coached girls softball for 8 years and I thought when I got into racing I would finally get away from a bunch of crying bitches on their period... guess I was wrong...

What is illegal with Wirtz's car???... There MUST be something illegal if "I can't beat him"... there MUST be something illegal if he is faster than the ENTIRE CMC2 field... (Not a shot at you, Jeff, just an example of the type of bitching that comes from egotistical bastards that can't accept that it is the driver, not the car)

Sorry Michael, the 3 car is the target here... you just got used as an example so they could go after me...

If someone has a problem with someone elses car GROW A F@CKING PAIR and post it in public and pay for a protest!!!

RichardP
04-20-2010, 09:41 AM
As for as sub-frame connectors, they are just as likely to become dislodged and launch you as a drive-shaft which requires at least a hoop.

Dude, you need to have your medications checked. Maybe make sure they are all backed up by valid prescriptions? That has to be one of the most absurd things I have ever seen typed. :lol:


Richard P.

David Love AI27
04-20-2010, 09:46 AM
Since this thread was started for battery questions, I would like to toss in my $.02 on battery safety.

For safely securing a battery in a race car, I prefer a diagonal mount for strength and stability. Something like this in concept:
http://www.colemanracing.com/store/images/full/985-101.jpg

I like the battery to be secured in a plastic box incase the battery does shift or the box does get hit/crushed from the outside. Even with the terminals independently covered inside the box (per the rules), the chance of shorting out on a metal box and causing a fire is something I like to avoid.

I like the battery to be located inside the cage structure (rather than in the front or in the far rear of the car) to minimize the chance of the battery being crushed in an impact.

If the rules allow, I prefer a small, light weight battery to minimize the chance of the battery becoming dislodged in a heavy impact.

I also prefer a gell cell or dry cell battery so I don’t have the possibility of an acid spill.

I prefer a starter solenoid to be mounted to a solid structure right next to the battery to minimize the length of unfused constantly hot wire.

Most of this stuff isn’t required by the rules. It’s just my opinion on how to make a safe system within the allowed rules…

Richard P.

NASA budget cuts giving you too much free time....

Boudy
04-20-2010, 10:32 AM
As for as sub-frame connectors, they are just as likely to become dislodged and launch you as a drive-shaft which requires at least a hoop.

Dude, you need to have your medications checked. Maybe make sure they are all backed up by valid prescriptions? That has to be one of the most absurd things I have ever seen typed. :lol:


Richard P.

Then tell me why it's absurd.

I've been launched by a non-hooped drive shaft rolling my truck onto it's side so that's possible. I've also had a nerf bar break loose and hook the guard rail so that's also possible.

The lesson learned and action taken was that my drive shafts always get a hoop and misc bars that run along the length of my car get 3-point attachments. So currently if my drive shaft dislodges, my hoop keeps it from trouble. If an OFE dislodges either end of my sub frame I want 3 point attachment to help keep it from causing trouble but rules say I can't.

Maybe we're talking from different experiences or something but I'm all ears.

Boudy

AI#97
04-20-2010, 10:33 AM
One thing that I have talked to Michael about it for the CMC power's to be to CLEARLY state what is within the interpretation of the rules. Written rules are easy to comply with. Interpretation of the class intentions are difficult at best.

Damn this popcorn is good!!!

Marshall has a VERY valid point when Al and Glenn can't even get on the same step within CMC rules interpretation.... that has to be fixed first...then start enforcing the written rules.

Going to grab a beer for the fireworks!

Rob Liebbe
04-20-2010, 10:56 AM
Boudy - run a weld from the rear attachment point forward to mid-car then run a weld from the forward attachment point rearward until it is 1 inch from the rear weld. Now you have "two" attachment points and plenty of safety.

Am I helping? :twisted:

Boudy
04-20-2010, 11:01 AM
:lol: :lol:

Whole damn tread kinda has a new life doesn't it.

But thanks for the help anyway.

Boudy

Boudy
04-20-2010, 11:03 AM
Oh BTW! Can't, I no longer have a welder. :x :x

Boudy

RichardP
04-20-2010, 11:23 AM
Oh BTW! Can't, I no longer have a welder. :x :x

Boudy


If you can't weld a subframe connector so it doesn't fall off of the car, it's probably best that you don't have access to one... :lol:


The subframe connector is a static piece of steel welded at both ends. A drive shaft is a larger, heavier piece of metal with articulated joints at each end. If the front u-joint fails, the drive shaft will hit the ground and pole vault the car. If the front weld for the subframe connector fails??? the metal should still stay firmly connected to the car at the rear weld.

Richard P.

Boudy
04-20-2010, 11:52 AM
You have obviously not seem some of my Off Track Adventures... :lol: I'm pretty efficient a ripping static metal off my car. :roll: :oops:

Boudy

David Love AI27
04-20-2010, 12:01 PM
You have obviously not seem some of my Off Track Adventures... :lol: I'm pretty efficient a ripping static metal off my car. :roll: :oops:

Boudy

And daughters don't help... been there done that..

RichardP
04-20-2010, 12:08 PM
You have obviously not seem some of my Off Track Adventures... :lol: I'm pretty efficient a ripping static metal off my car. :roll: :oops:

Boudy

Oh, I've seen plenty of them. I was just commenting to someone at the last event that you were trying hard to be the group's replacement for Cory since he wasn't showing up anymore... :D

Richard P.

Fbody383
04-20-2010, 12:38 PM
If an OFE dislodges either end of my sub frame I want 3 point attachment to help keep it from causing trouble but rules say I can't.



7.6.1 The frame or subframe shall be stock for the body used. The front and rear subframes may be tied
together (front to rear only) with subframe connectors. The subframe connectors may be bolted or welded to
the unmodified subframes, but may not be welded or bolted to the floor along the length of the subframe
connector. The subframe connectors may not pass through the floor or intrude into the inside of the car.
OEM seat mount points may be altered or reinforced. The reinforcement may tie into the subframe
connectors or the cage but may not span across the floor from driver to passenger side.

Soooo.... can't you add a third point to the SFC by attaching it to an OEM seat mount point?

Adam Ginsberg
04-20-2010, 12:42 PM
My sub frame connectors were installed to the manufacture's instructions. I was asked to cut the point where the center of the bar was attached the floor pan.



7.6.1 The frame or subframe shall be stock for the body used. The front and rear subframes may be tied
together (front to rear only) with subframe connectors. The subframe connectors may be bolted or welded to
the unmodified subframes, but may not be welded or bolted to the floor along the length of the subframe
connector. The subframe connectors may not pass through the floor or intrude into the inside of the car.
OEM seat mount points may be altered or reinforced. The reinforcement may tie into the subframe
connectors or the cage but may not span across the floor from driver to passenger side.

Soooo.... can't you add a third point to the SFC by attaching it to an OEM seat mount point?

Thanks for posting that! I was confused when Boudy mentioned he was told to cut the SFC to seat cross bar (unless I have misunderstood his original comment in this thread), as the CMC rules clearly spell that out.

marshall_mosty
04-20-2010, 01:00 PM
One thing that may be missed here is the necessity for a beefy underplate under the floor of the car to distribute the load of a 35lb battery in an 80G crash. Think 35*80= 2800lbs pulling on the floor.

This is an excellent point. It is also especially true if your battery box weighs more than the battery...



All these CMC interpretations are what make me so glad I'm in AI.

I'm confused by this statement??? AI has restrictions on ballast and an excessive battery box skirts the AI rules just as much as it does CMC rules.

Richard P.
Richard,
My point about the frustration isn't pointed at the battery box stuff, but just the "it doesn't meet the intent of the series"... There have been other threads on the CMC site about roll cage design that were going down the same path.

RichardP
04-20-2010, 01:37 PM
My point about the frustration isn't pointed at the battery box stuff, but just the "it doesn't meet the intent of the series"... There have been other threads on the CMC site about roll cage design that were going down the same path.


There is no rules interpretation controversy in AI??? Really???

There's no one arguing about each other’s cars in Texas because there is no one actually competing against each other. If you think that’s better, well…

I appreciate the deep fields of highly competitive racers in CMC and accept the inevitable controversy that comes with that. I try to throw in a few tidbits to keep the controversy down (usually unsuccessfully) but it’s a pretty standard part ANY competition.

Richard P.

mitchntx
04-20-2010, 02:01 PM
As for as sub-frame connectors, they are just as likely to become dislodged and launch you as a drive-shaft which requires at least a hoop.
That has to be one of the most absurd things I have ever seen typed. :lol:

Richard P.

Whoa! I take that as a compliment.

Boudy
04-20-2010, 02:56 PM
If an OFE dislodges either end of my sub frame I want 3 point attachment to help keep it from causing trouble but rules say I can't.



7.6.1 The frame or subframe shall be stock for the body used. The front and rear subframes may be tied
together (front to rear only) with subframe connectors. The subframe connectors may be bolted or welded to
the unmodified subframes, but may not be welded or bolted to the floor along the length of the subframe
connector. The subframe connectors may not pass through the floor or intrude into the inside of the car.
OEM seat mount points may be altered or reinforced. The reinforcement may tie into the subframe
connectors or the cage but may not span across the floor from driver to passenger side.

Soooo.... can't you add a third point to the SFC by attaching it to an OEM seat mount point?

??? Beats the hell out of me. I'm so confused... :cry:

marshall_mosty
04-20-2010, 05:26 PM
My point about the frustration isn't pointed at the battery box stuff, but just the "it doesn't meet the intent of the series"... There have been other threads on the CMC site about roll cage design that were going down the same path.


There is no rules interpretation controversy in AI??? Really???

There's no one arguing about each other’s cars in Texas because there is no one actually competing against each other. If you think that’s better, well…

I appreciate the deep fields of highly competitive racers in CMC and accept the inevitable controversy that comes with that. I try to throw in a few tidbits to keep the controversy down (usually unsuccessfully) but it’s a pretty standard part ANY competition.

Richard P.

Richard,
You are correct. There is plenty to complain about in AI as well.

However, to exploit those sensitive topics as of late would take more $$$ than trying to be creative and engineering something that hasn't been used before.

With the AI fields being so thin lately, you can pretty much "run what you brung" and still be okay with everyone.

GlennCMC70
04-20-2010, 05:27 PM
Since this thread was started for battery questions, I would like to toss in my $.02 on battery safety.

For safely securing a battery in a race car, I prefer a diagonal mount for strength and stability. Something like this in concept:
http://www.colemanracing.com/store/images/full/985-101.jpg

I like the battery to be secured in a plastic box incase the battery does shift or the box does get hit/crushed from the outside. Even with the terminals independently covered inside the box (per the rules), the chance of shorting out on a metal box and causing a fire is something I like to avoid.

I like the battery to be located inside the cage structure (rather than in the front or in the far rear of the car) to minimize the chance of the battery being crushed in an impact.

If the rules allow, I prefer a small, light weight battery to minimize the chance of the battery becoming dislodged in a heavy impact.

I also prefer a gell cell or dry cell battery so I don’t have the possibility of an acid spill.

I prefer a starter solenoid to be mounted to a solid structure right next to the battery to minimize the length of unfused constantly hot wire.

Most of this stuff isn’t required by the rules. It’s just my opinion on how to make a safe system within the allowed rules…

Richard P.

I like everything you said. Agree 100%.
I use the same type mount w/ my plastic box mounted to it. I modified the one in the pick some to allow the plastic box to fit.

Thanks Richard.

GlennCMC70
04-20-2010, 05:37 PM
If you wanna race, read the f@cking rules, They are posted on the internet and available to anybody. Do your research and find or build a car that fits the existing rules. Don't say "I have a 08 Mustang and I want the series to change the rules to fit my car", thats not fair to those already invested in the series.

AND

It should be a level playing field as far as weight/hp, PERIOD...

I coached girls softball for 8 years and I thought when I got into racing I would finally get away from a bunch of crying bitches on their period... guess I was wrong...

What is illegal with Wirtz's car???... There MUST be something illegal if "I can't beat him"... there MUST be something illegal if he is faster than the ENTIRE CMC2 field... (Not a shot at you, Jeff, just an example of the type of bitching that comes from egotistical bastards that can't accept that it is the driver, not the car)

Sorry Michael, the 3 car is the target here... you just got used as an example so they could go after me...

If someone has a problem with someone elses car GROW A F@CKING PAIR and post it in public and pay for a protest!!!

I am here to tell you if we just put cars on the track at the same weight and power, it would be a one car show. Your truely unintelligent if you think otherwise.

If you think all this is to get to you, you are wrong. Your car is the reason all this got started, but it started before you owned it. And when the car owner tells me of something that is not w/in the intent of the rules by exploiting a loophole, expect the loophole to be closed. Also dont expect the Director to put up a protest fee when the info was volunteered. At this point, you sound like the 8 year old softball player. Sorry.

Wirtz
04-20-2010, 05:47 PM
With the AI fields being so thin lately, you can pretty much "run what you brung" and still be okay with everyone.

Careful with that attitude. It's a slippery slope and once the fields start of come around, or when someone is perceived to have taken it too far, it will get messy to fix what has not been done...

GlennCMC70
04-20-2010, 05:49 PM
One thing that I have talked to Michael about it for the CMC power's to be to CLEARLY state what is within the interpretation of the rules. Written rules are easy to comply with. Interpretation of the class intentions are difficult at best.

Damn this popcorn is good!!!

Marshall has a VERY valid point when Al and Glenn can't even get on the same step within CMC rules interpretation.... that has to be fixed first...then start enforcing the written rules.

Going to grab a beer for the fireworks!

Once again you speak of nothing in which you know.
Every battery box in the all of CMC land is legal as of the latest rules release. Al decided to work w/ those who he felt needed to replace what he felt was a non-legal box. One was slightly too far into the gray area, and the other was not. Al made a mistake. You ever make one? Why no, not Matt. :roll:
Anyways..... Al didnt tell me he was asking folks to change them out. I had no idea the can or worms my post was opening. Dont really see how that is my fault. My goal w/ my post was to give a heads up to those who may be in question plenty of notice as to what I was planning to propose to the other Directors for a possible change for 2011.

So, there is no interpretation to not be on the same page w/. Each of those two drivers could refuse to remove the box in question and appeal to the Race Direcotr or Jerry/John at National. That didnt happen.

Let me tell you where you can get good popcorn.... I hear ST has great popcorn over at Tech.

GlennCMC70
04-20-2010, 05:52 PM
With the AI fields being so thin lately, you can pretty much "run what you brung" and still be okay with everyone.

Careful with that attitude. It's a slippery slope and once the fields start of come around, or when someone is perceived to have taken it too far, it will get messy to fix what has not been done...

Smart man right here.

GlennCMC70
04-20-2010, 08:40 PM
If you wanna race, read the f@cking rules, They are posted on the internet and available to anybody. Do your research and find or build a car that fits the existing rules. Don't say "I have a 08 Mustang and I want the series to change the rules to fit my car", thats not fair to those already invested in the series.

AND

It should be a level playing field as far as weight/hp, PERIOD...

I coached girls softball for 8 years and I thought when I got into racing I would finally get away from a bunch of crying bitches on their period... guess I was wrong...

What is illegal with Wirtz's car???... There MUST be something illegal if "I can't beat him"... there MUST be something illegal if he is faster than the ENTIRE CMC2 field... (Not a shot at you, Jeff, just an example of the type of bitching that comes from egotistical bastards that can't accept that it is the driver, not the car)

Sorry Michael, the 3 car is the target here... you just got used as an example so they could go after me...

If someone has a problem with someone elses car GROW A F@CKING PAIR and post it in public and pay for a protest!!!

I am here to tell you if we just put cars on the track at the same weight and power, it would be a one car show. Your truely unintelligent if you think otherwise.

If you think all this is to get to you, you are wrong. Your car is the reason all this got started, but it started before you owned it. And when the car owner tells me of something that is not w/in the intent of the rules by exploiting a loophole, expect the loophole to be closed. Also dont expect the Director to put up a protest fee when the info was volunteered. At this point, you sound like the 8 year old softball player. Sorry.

Want to clarify. The person mentioned above did nothing wrong. Loopholes are found all the time in this series. We close some, some we leave open. All I wanted to do was give a long term heads up about a possible rules change. It seemed like this was a good place since MM was making a change.


Crap guys..... Bring your battery box's to post qual drivers meeting. :roll:
Wear them on your head. If it breaks your kneck, its your own fault. :wink:

Alien
04-20-2010, 08:44 PM
What kind of battery box are y'all using?
Cheap plastic one, expensive aluminum one, expensive steel one, or homemade?

A little late on the thread, but here's my attempt at Aggie engineering a box with some ideas from Wirtz and Glenn. 1/8" I think, but stacked lengthwise (so it's 1/4" lengthwise) to give a flat base for the box. You can see it matches the indents at the bottom of the plastic box for a snug fit. The seatwell is so curved, my thoughts were placing a plastic box in there where the 4 corvers would contact the floor didn't give me that warm fuzzy feeling and I wasn't going to spend $100+ on a prefabbed on that would probably still need some modifying.

http://www.fototime.com/8CBA949318D27B7/standard.jpg

Lid omitted for clarity.
http://www.fototime.com/9000A6E1B465609/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/5C9A280327B1AC9/standard.jpg
Yeah, interior is getting repainted (hopefully) this offseason.


I hope that the rewording of the rule is more like this...


say that it can be no more than A" x B" and no thicker than .XXX" thick steel to keep people from having a 1" thick mounting plate.


to keep the 100lbs boxes out rather than this...

I'll be proposing in the off season that those home built box's be disallowed and only commercialy available boxes will be allowed. Existing home built box's will have to be approved by a series director.

which kinda kills the whole cheap-bastard aspect of CMC.

jeffburch
04-20-2010, 09:03 PM
Nice clarification there GL, thanks.
The National director checked that car over at the '09 Nationals.
There was no fix-it-ticket issued. Also, there was no clarification in the official rule-creep-rewrite period this winter, so what is DL to do? 8)
You big guys at the top should correspond more frequently. 8)


__________________________________________________ ___
jb
Equal weight over the same tire patch. There rest is just tears.

GlennCMC70
04-20-2010, 09:04 PM
Gary, your box fits in my proposed wording.

GlennCMC70
04-20-2010, 09:07 PM
Nice clarification there GL, thanks.
The National director checked that car over at the '09 Nationals.
There was no fix-it-ticket issued. Also, there was no clarification in the official rule-creep-rewrite period this winter, so what is DL to do? 8)
You big guys at the top should correspond more frequently. 8)


__________________________________________________ ___
jb
Equal weight over the same tire patch. There rest is just tears.

DL can sit fast till a rule change is made or we have a conversation w/ him. There will be no intent to walk up to him and pull this out of the bag and DQ him.

Alien
04-20-2010, 09:10 PM
Gary, your box fits in my proposed wording.
Yes, my box fits your wording. The new guy building a car would have to go buy a prefabbed box. Just lookin' out for the new guy.

GlennCMC70
04-20-2010, 09:26 PM
Your plastic box is a pre-fabbed box. Cost all of $12.

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/ATW0/90651.oap?keyword=battery+box&pt=N0357&ppt=C0005

But if it feels unsafe to someone, then there is all these.
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/KeywordSearchCmd?Ne=1+2+3+1147708&Ntt=battery+box&Ntk=all&langId=-1&storeId=10001&Jnar=0&N=0&catalogId=10002&itemPerPage=60

If you still feel you should build your own, submit your ideas to the directors. The worst we can say is no.

Alien
04-20-2010, 09:35 PM
I misunderstood. I read "commercially available box" as "commercially available mount" and thought something like this...
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CEE-4125/

AI#97
04-20-2010, 11:04 PM
With the AI fields being so thin lately, you can pretty much "run what you brung" and still be okay with everyone.

Careful with that attitude. It's a slippery slope and once the fields start of come around, or when someone is perceived to have taken it too far, it will get messy to fix what has not been done...

Smart man right here.

Wow. You just denounced what you three directors have been advocating all year... Now I'm more confused... :?

GlennCMC70
04-21-2010, 07:04 AM
With the AI fields being so thin lately, you can pretty much "run what you brung" and still be okay with everyone.

Careful with that attitude. It's a slippery slope and once the fields start of come around, or when someone is perceived to have taken it too far, it will get messy to fix what has not been done...

Smart man right here.

Wow. You just denounced what you three directors have been advocating all year... Now I'm more confused... :?

Seems you just announced you dont really know whats going on.

marshall_mosty
04-21-2010, 07:05 AM
With the AI fields being so thin lately, you can pretty much "run what you brung" and still be okay with everyone.

Careful with that attitude. It's a slippery slope and once the fields start of come around, or when someone is perceived to have taken it too far it will get messy to fix what has not been done...
Jeff,
My comment was posted in the jest that at MSR-C, I was obviously not in compliance to the AI rules (no dyno and about 150 lbs light)... But the others in the field did't care and I was able to run up front with MP, which was something I have only dreamed of in the past. Not to say that AI will always be that way, but I posted prior to the event about my situation and my intent to run AIX due to my dyno/weight issue, but the AI crowd said "come on" so I did. Nothing more to imply about the series and any creep of allowances.

mitchntx
04-21-2010, 07:22 AM
With the AI fields being so thin lately, you can pretty much "run what you brung" and still be okay with everyone.

Careful with that attitude. It's a slippery slope and once the fields start of come around, or when someone is perceived to have taken it too far, it will get messy to fix what has not been done...

Smart man right here.

Wow. You just denounced what you three directors have been advocating all year... Now I'm more confused... :?

Me too ... I've always considered Wirtz a pretty sharp individual. Nor did I know that the directors had been advocating anything surrounding Mr. Wirtz.

What makes you think he's anything but a smart, well respected individual?

GlennCMC70
04-21-2010, 07:48 AM
Back on topic.

The CCR says:
18.8 Battery
The battery shall be securely fastened down to the car. No Bungee cords or rubber cords may be used to function as the sole hold down mechanism. An electrically nonconductive material must cover the positive battery terminal. Any battery located inside the driver’s compartment shall be fully covered and firmly secured to the chassis in a
marine type battery case. True dry cell batteries may be mounted without a surrounding case, however a case is still recommended. Note- there is a difference between “dry cells” and “gel cells.” Gel cells still need to be mounted in a case.

From what I know, a Marine Type Case is a plastic case. So, make sure your case is of non-metalic material. Also, as said before, the case is not there to hold the battery. That is the job of the battery hold down.

This is from the current CCR. I'll be making some calls today.

RichardP
04-21-2010, 09:34 AM
http://www.fototime.com/8CBA949318D27B7/standard.jpg



In my opinion, this is a battery setup that is fully legal but marginally capable of securing the battery in an accident.

First, the top bar that goes across the top of the battery is just a thin plate. Tightening the bolts doesn’t really clamp the battery. It mostly just bows the plate across the top of the battery and puts the attachment bolts in bending at the thread roots. This also digs the edges of the plate into the battery possibly causing a rupture down the road from the normal vibrations it would see.

Swapping the top plate for an aluminum angle or even a u-channel would give it significantly more bending stiffness and allow it to do a much better job of clamping.

Second, there is nothing to restrain the bottom of the battery from sliding out from underneath the clamp other than the marginal friction load. I use 1” angle welded in a perimeter that the battery box can sit in. In this case, a couple of tabs welded to the plates that are already there would keep the battery from sliding around underneath the clamp.

With a few bucks from Home Depot and a ½ hour of fab time, this marginal design could be transformed to be really good.

Richard P.

Alien
04-21-2010, 10:01 AM
Swapping the top plate for an aluminum angle or even a u-channel would give it significantly more bending stiffness and allow it to do a much better job of clamping.
Noted. Thanks.


Second, there is nothing to restrain the bottom of the battery from sliding out from underneath the clamp other than the marginal friction load ... In this case, a couple of tabs welded to the plates that are already there would keep the battery from sliding around underneath the clamp.
As long as there is a clamping load on the battery, the box (with it's recesses sitting squarely on the steel below) shouldn't move latterally. The battery with only the friction load could, however, move within the box ~3/4". Would the tabs mentioned be restraining the battery or the box. If battery, wouldn't they have to penetrate the bottom of the box?

OMG, three consecutive posts on topic with no bitching :)

GlennCMC70
04-21-2010, 10:21 AM
Gary, shape the strap to go down the sides then out to the all thread.

I use a short length of angle steel w/ the corner facing up and holes for the all thread in the corner.

rpoz27
04-21-2010, 10:58 AM
With the AI fields being so thin lately, you can pretty much "run what you brung" and still be okay with everyone.

Careful with that attitude. It's a slippery slope and once the fields start of come around, or when someone is perceived to have taken it too far it will get messy to fix what has not been done...
Jeff,
My comment was posted in the jest that at MSR-C, I was obviously not in compliance to the AI rules (no dyno and about 150 lbs light)... But the others in the field did't care and I was able to run up front with MP, which was something I have only dreamed of in the past. Not to say that AI will always be that way, but I posted prior to the event about my situation and my intent to run AIX due to my dyno/weight issue, but the AI crowd said "come on" so I did. Nothing more to imply about the series and any creep of allowances.

The others in the field at that event didn't care. Nobody else on the AI roster was asked their opinion. Now the points are skewed by illegal cars collecting full points when they should have been doing a fun run or in AIX. Personally, it pisses me off.

NickV
04-21-2010, 12:43 PM
This is my version. I took Gary's idea and used it as a basis.

The bottom plastic piece is a replacement tray you get at auto parts stores. It is bolted through the floor pan just like the battery mount. The metal straps are 1/8" flat bar bent and welded together to make the mount. The hold down is shorter than the battery by a touch so when it's bolted down it clamps on real well to the battery itself.

RichardP
04-21-2010, 04:06 PM
As long as there is a clamping load on the battery, the box (with it's recesses sitting squarely on the steel below) shouldn't move latterally. The battery with only the friction load could, however, move within the box ~3/4". Would the tabs mentioned be restraining the battery or the box. If battery, wouldn't they have to penetrate the bottom of the box?

OK. I didn't get that you were utilizing recesses in the bottom of the plastic box. That will help for a reasonable hit but probably wouldn't be strong enough for a big hit. If you put tabs outside the plastic box, it would be secured much better.

For the battery inside the box, I've seen the battery shifted to one side and then a piece of wood wedged in there to keep the battery from moving. That's why I like the angled clamp. It fully secures the battery inside the box.

Richard P.

GlennCMC70
04-21-2010, 04:20 PM
Back on topic.

The CCR says:
18.8 Battery
The battery shall be securely fastened down to the car. No Bungee cords or rubber cords may be used to function as the sole hold down mechanism. An electrically nonconductive material must cover the positive battery terminal. Any battery located inside the driver’s compartment shall be fully covered and firmly secured to the chassis in a
marine type battery case. True dry cell batteries may be mounted without a surrounding case, however a case is still recommended. Note- there is a difference between “dry cells” and “gel cells.” Gel cells still need to be mounted in a case.

From what I know, a Marine Type Case is a plastic case. So, make sure your case is of non-metalic material. Also, as said before, the case is not there to hold the battery. That is the job of the battery hold down.

This is from the current CCR. I'll be making some calls today.

From JWL today:

I interpret this as simply requiring a sealed box. I have seen steel,
aluminum, plastic, and composite for these with the idea being that
the box will contain an acid spill if there is an impact or
malfunction that ruptures the battery case.

Hope that helps.

Look for more on this later. My quess was wrong.

David Love AI27
04-21-2010, 04:34 PM
Back on topic.

The CCR says:
18.8 Battery
The battery shall be securely fastened down to the car. No Bungee cords or rubber cords may be used to function as the sole hold down mechanism. An electrically nonconductive material must cover the positive battery terminal. Any battery located inside the driver’s compartment shall be fully covered and firmly secured to the chassis in a
marine type battery case. True dry cell batteries may be mounted without a surrounding case, however a case is still recommended. Note- there is a difference between “dry cells” and “gel cells.” Gel cells still need to be mounted in a case.

From what I know, a Marine Type Case is a plastic case. So, make sure your case is of non-metalic material. Also, as said before, the case is not there to hold the battery. That is the job of the battery hold down.

This is from the current CCR. I'll be making some calls today.

From JWL today:

I interpret this as simply requiring a sealed box. I have seen steel,
aluminum, plastic, and composite for these with the idea being that
the box will contain an acid spill if there is an impact or
malfunction that ruptures the battery case.

Hope that helps.

Look for more on this later. My quess was wrong.

Most Marinje boxes are NOT sealed, They have large tunnels at the top for the cables where acid could easliy leak leak out. My 27 car has a LEGAL box. it is a moroso with sealed top and the cables are sealed. It is expensive but it is LEGAL. The cheap marine boxes are illegal but there are alot of them being used.

GlennCMC70
04-21-2010, 04:34 PM
With the AI fields being so thin lately, you can pretty much "run what you brung" and still be okay with everyone.

Careful with that attitude. It's a slippery slope and once the fields start of come around, or when someone is perceived to have taken it too far it will get messy to fix what has not been done...
Jeff,
My comment was posted in the jest that at MSR-C, I was obviously not in compliance to the AI rules (no dyno and about 150 lbs light)... But the others in the field did't care and I was able to run up front with MP, which was something I have only dreamed of in the past. Not to say that AI will always be that way, but I posted prior to the event about my situation and my intent to run AIX due to my dyno/weight issue, but the AI crowd said "come on" so I did. Nothing more to imply about the series and any creep of allowances.

The others in the field at that event didn't care. Nobody else on the AI roster was asked their opinion. Now the points are skewed by illegal cars collecting full points when they should have been doing a fun run or in AIX. Personally, it pisses me off.

To be on the roster you have to be there. So yes, all the AI cars on the roster were there and didnt care. Similare considerations have been made for you in the past. This is the norm when the car count is so low. Had there been something like 10 AI cars show up (yes, we have over 10 AI cars in this region) I'm sure the rules would have been enforced differently. The same things were done for CMC here and all regions when there is an attempt to build the class up. By you and Matt and DD, and not running AI at TWS, the field is held to a low number. We have another new AI racer coming down from OK to run, and he wants to run AI, but the numbers are too low. Car count build better car count. W/ the 5 we had at MSR-C, plus you 3 and the new guy from OK, we would have 9 AI cars. W/ that many cars, rules would be enforced and drivers would be allowed to "run what you brung".
Think about that, 9 AI cars. add the other AI cars to that and there would be a very nice AI field.

Also, how is it your worried about season points when you have missed 2 events already and this event your running ST2. That will put the tally to 50% of the AI races you have missed. I dont get it.

GlennCMC70
04-21-2010, 04:36 PM
Back on topic.

The CCR says:
18.8 Battery
The battery shall be securely fastened down to the car. No Bungee cords or rubber cords may be used to function as the sole hold down mechanism. An electrically nonconductive material must cover the positive battery terminal. Any battery located inside the driver’s compartment shall be fully covered and firmly secured to the chassis in a
marine type battery case. True dry cell batteries may be mounted without a surrounding case, however a case is still recommended. Note- there is a difference between “dry cells” and “gel cells.” Gel cells still need to be mounted in a case.

From what I know, a Marine Type Case is a plastic case. So, make sure your case is of non-metalic material. Also, as said before, the case is not there to hold the battery. That is the job of the battery hold down.

This is from the current CCR. I'll be making some calls today.

From JWL today:

I interpret this as simply requiring a sealed box. I have seen steel,
aluminum, plastic, and composite for these with the idea being that
the box will contain an acid spill if there is an impact or
malfunction that ruptures the battery case.

Hope that helps.

Look for more on this later. My quess was wrong.

Most Marinje boxes are NOT sealed, They have large tunnels at the top for the cables where acid could easliy leak leak out. My 27 car has a LEGAL box. it is a moroso with sealed top and the cables are sealed. It is expensive but it is LEGAL. The cheap marine boxes are illegal but there are alot of them being used.

You could be spot on David.

RichardP
04-21-2010, 04:39 PM
From JWL today:

I interpret this as simply requiring a sealed box. I have seen steel,
aluminum, plastic, and composite for these with the idea being that
the box will contain an acid spill if there is an impact or
malfunction that ruptures the battery case.

Hope that helps.


He can interpret it that way if he wants but that's clearly not what it says. If he wants it to say that, it needs to be re-written.


Richard P.

David Love AI27
04-21-2010, 04:43 PM
If you wanna race, read the f@cking rules, They are posted on the internet and available to anybody. Do your research and find or build a car that fits the existing rules. Don't say "I have a 08 Mustang and I want the series to change the rules to fit my car", thats not fair to those already invested in the series.

AND

It should be a level playing field as far as weight/hp, PERIOD...

I coached girls softball for 8 years and I thought when I got into racing I would finally get away from a bunch of crying bitches on their period... guess I was wrong...

What is illegal with Wirtz's car???... There MUST be something illegal if "I can't beat him"... there MUST be something illegal if he is faster than the ENTIRE CMC2 field... (Not a shot at you, Jeff, just an example of the type of bitching that comes from egotistical bastards that can't accept that it is the driver, not the car)

Sorry Michael, the 3 car is the target here... you just got used as an example so they could go after me...

If someone has a problem with someone elses car GROW A F@CKING PAIR and post it in public and pay for a protest!!!

I am here to tell you if we just put cars on the track at the same weight and power, it would be a one car show. Your truely unintelligent if you think otherwise.

If you think all this is to get to you, you are wrong. Your car is the reason all this got started, but it started before you owned it. And when the car owner tells me of something that is not w/in the intent of the rules by exploiting a loophole, expect the loophole to be closed. Also dont expect the Director to put up a protest fee when the info was volunteered. At this point, you sound like the 8 year old softball player. Sorry.

Want to clarify. The person mentioned above did nothing wrong. Loopholes are found all the time in this series. We close some, some we leave open. All I wanted to do was give a long term heads up about a possible rules change. It seemed like this was a good place since MM was making a change.


Crap guys..... Bring your battery box's to post qual drivers meeting. :roll:
Wear them on your head. If it breaks your kneck, its your own fault. :wink:

My rant was over the top and out of line there are other personal issues going on right now. I apologize to everyone on the forum.

I should have simply stated that I KNEW this was all directed towards my car..

Sorry again for my attitude and my language

GlennCMC70
04-21-2010, 04:45 PM
From JWL today:

I interpret this as simply requiring a sealed box. I have seen steel,
aluminum, plastic, and composite for these with the idea being that
the box will contain an acid spill if there is an impact or
malfunction that ruptures the battery case.

Hope that helps.


He can interpret it that way if he wants but that's clearly not what it says. If he wants it to say that, it needs to be re-written.


Richard P.

I told him that. Al and myself talked this morning and we plan to address this w/ NASA.
Feel free to contribute to that effort if you want.

GlennCMC70
04-21-2010, 04:46 PM
If you wanna race, read the f@cking rules, They are posted on the internet and available to anybody. Do your research and find or build a car that fits the existing rules. Don't say "I have a 08 Mustang and I want the series to change the rules to fit my car", thats not fair to those already invested in the series.

AND

It should be a level playing field as far as weight/hp, PERIOD...

I coached girls softball for 8 years and I thought when I got into racing I would finally get away from a bunch of crying bitches on their period... guess I was wrong...

What is illegal with Wirtz's car???... There MUST be something illegal if "I can't beat him"... there MUST be something illegal if he is faster than the ENTIRE CMC2 field... (Not a shot at you, Jeff, just an example of the type of bitching that comes from egotistical bastards that can't accept that it is the driver, not the car)

Sorry Michael, the 3 car is the target here... you just got used as an example so they could go after me...

If someone has a problem with someone elses car GROW A F@CKING PAIR and post it in public and pay for a protest!!!

I am here to tell you if we just put cars on the track at the same weight and power, it would be a one car show. Your truely unintelligent if you think otherwise.

If you think all this is to get to you, you are wrong. Your car is the reason all this got started, but it started before you owned it. And when the car owner tells me of something that is not w/in the intent of the rules by exploiting a loophole, expect the loophole to be closed. Also dont expect the Director to put up a protest fee when the info was volunteered. At this point, you sound like the 8 year old softball player. Sorry.

Want to clarify. The person mentioned above did nothing wrong. Loopholes are found all the time in this series. We close some, some we leave open. All I wanted to do was give a long term heads up about a possible rules change. It seemed like this was a good place since MM was making a change.


Crap guys..... Bring your battery box's to post qual drivers meeting. :roll:
Wear them on your head. If it breaks your kneck, its your own fault. :wink:

My rant was over the top and out of line there are other personal issues going on right now. I apologize to everyone on the forum.

I should have simply stated that I KNEW this was all directed towards my car..

Sorry again for my attitude and my language

Who are you and what did you do w/ DL?
Sometimes I wish my postes were delayed 24hrs.

marshall_mosty
04-21-2010, 04:46 PM
With the AI fields being so thin lately, you can pretty much "run what you brung" and still be okay with everyone.

Careful with that attitude. It's a slippery slope and once the fields start of come around, or when someone is perceived to have taken it too far it will get messy to fix what has not been done...
Jeff,
My comment was posted in the jest that at MSR-C, I was obviously not in compliance to the AI rules (no dyno and about 150 lbs light)... But the others in the field did't care and I was able to run up front with MP, which was something I have only dreamed of in the past. Not to say that AI will always be that way, but I posted prior to the event about my situation and my intent to run AIX due to my dyno/weight issue, but the AI crowd said "come on" so I did. Nothing more to imply about the series and any creep of allowances.

The others in the field at that event didn't care. Nobody else on the AI roster was asked their opinion. Now the points are skewed by illegal cars collecting full points when they should have been doing a fun run or in AIX. Personally, it pisses me off.

If is that big of a deal, I will take zero points then for all the races I ran. I clearly stated I was okay with this prior to the event on this forum.

Glenn, can you please make the update to the points. I don't want to ruffle any feathers, as I am just out there to have fun. I even told everyone that I would take a last place finish to not mess up the Toyo bucks either...

RichardP
04-21-2010, 04:48 PM
Most Marine boxes are NOT sealed, They have large tunnels at the top for the cables where acid could easliy leak leak out. My 27 car has a LEGAL box. it is a moroso with sealed top and the cables are sealed. It is expensive but it is LEGAL. The cheap marine boxes are illegal but there are alot of them being used.


Here is the fun part (that clearly isn't going to sit well with you):

The rule specifically says "Marine Type" which is a non-sealed setup. Your setup is not a "marine type" and is therefore, technically, not legal by the rule as it is written (even though it is "better").

Sealed boxes like you have are legal and required for NHRA, so you would be good to go there (although you would fail on many other things).

Clearly the rule is poorly written as it stands. As I have mentioned before, it is also the most widely ignored rule.


Richard P.

GlennCMC70
04-21-2010, 04:49 PM
With the AI fields being so thin lately, you can pretty much "run what you brung" and still be okay with everyone.

Careful with that attitude. It's a slippery slope and once the fields start of come around, or when someone is perceived to have taken it too far it will get messy to fix what has not been done...
Jeff,
My comment was posted in the jest that at MSR-C, I was obviously not in compliance to the AI rules (no dyno and about 150 lbs light)... But the others in the field did't care and I was able to run up front with MP, which was something I have only dreamed of in the past. Not to say that AI will always be that way, but I posted prior to the event about my situation and my intent to run AIX due to my dyno/weight issue, but the AI crowd said "come on" so I did. Nothing more to imply about the series and any creep of allowances.

The others in the field at that event didn't care. Nobody else on the AI roster was asked their opinion. Now the points are skewed by illegal cars collecting full points when they should have been doing a fun run or in AIX. Personally, it pisses me off.

I will take zero points then for all the races I ran. I clearly stated this prior to the event. Glenn, can you please make the update to the points. I don't want to ruffle any feathers, as I am just out there to have fun.

Sorry. I already did the points. It will take more than the rants from other folks who have decided to not race w/ AI for me to change it.

David Love AI27
04-21-2010, 04:53 PM
Most Marine boxes are NOT sealed, They have large tunnels at the top for the cables where acid could easliy leak leak out. My 27 car has a LEGAL box. it is a moroso with sealed top and the cables are sealed. It is expensive but it is LEGAL. The cheap marine boxes are illegal but there are alot of them being used.


Here is the fun part (that clearly isn't going to sit well with you):

The rule specifically says "Marine Type" which is a non-sealed setup. Your setup is not a "marine type" and is therefore, technically, not legal by the rule as it is written (even though it is "better").

Sealed boxes like you have are legal and required for NHRA, so you would be good to go there (although you would fail on many other things).

Clearly the rule is poorly written as it stands. As I have mentioned before, it is also the most widely ignored rule.


Richard P.

It sits fine with me... I honestly don't care what other people do and if I feel anyone is violating the rules and/or doing something that could cause harm to Jason or myself, I will file a protest.

David Love AI27
04-21-2010, 04:56 PM
Sometimes I wish my postes were delayed 24hrs.

X2

AI#97
04-21-2010, 09:17 PM
To be on the roster you have to be there. So yes, all the AI cars on the roster were there and didnt care. Similare considerations have been made for you in the past. This is the norm when the car count is so low. Had there been something like 10 AI cars show up (yes, we have over 10 AI cars in this region) I'm sure the rules would have been enforced differently. The same things were done for CMC here and all regions when there is an attempt to build the class up. By you and Matt and DD, and not running AI at TWS, the field is held to a low number. We have another new AI racer coming down from OK to run, and he wants to run AI, but the numbers are too low. Car count build better car count. W/ the 5 we had at MSR-C, plus you 3 and the new guy from OK, we would have 9 AI cars. W/ that many cars, rules would be enforced and drivers would be allowed to "run what you brung".
Think about that, 9 AI cars. add the other AI cars to that and there would be a very nice AI field.

Also, how is it your worried about season points when you have missed 2 events already and this event your running ST2. That will put the tally to 50% of the AI races you have missed. I dont get it.

There is a familiar statement! And you reiterate it with every post you make.

GlennCMC70
04-21-2010, 10:12 PM
Please explain to me why you wouldnt want to run w/ 8-10 other AI cars.
Please.

Al Fernandez
04-22-2010, 01:50 AM
Man, it feels like every time I go to a third world country something fun happens! :lol: Greetings from Angola. I managed internet and cell phone access yesterday long enough to read a couple of threads and make one post and chat w/a couple of people. It seems to be working pretty good this morning though.

Anyway, back on topic...excellent tech on here, thanks to those that are contributing to that. I fully agree that rule needs some attention from the NASA folks and as Glenn said we'll be discussing that with them.

Regarding our two drivers with fix it tickets...I made the mistake of not telling Glenn about it (he wasnt there at the time). I thought I had, so put it out of my mind. My bad. This was compounded because Glenn didnt understand the reason for the fix it tickets clearly. My bad again. I will write more details if I can today if not after the weekend.

Regarding drivers scoring points with less than legal cars...we've been doing that for years and will continue to do so because it is good for a lot of reasons as long as it is out in the open. We describe the non-conforming aspects and allow all attending drivers to vote. If nobody has a problem they get points. This isnt new to AI/CMC nor to Tx.

More importantly...see you guys (and girls) at TWS!!!

AI#97
04-22-2010, 08:16 AM
Please explain to me why you wouldnt want to run w/ 8-10 other AI cars.
Please.

I don't feel like buying a 50 ton press to get it to sink into your thick skull.


Al, if you are only looking at points on an event by event basis, you are wrong. Where is the incentive to show up if you can't climb in the points battle to win year end Toyo bucks because someone has been running on Hoosiers or had no dyno and scored points? What about the year end MM contingency that gets hosed up by "fun run" cars? There is $1500 or so you could be screwing people out of at the end of the year and I doubt for a minute you have considered that in your short-sighted decision matrix.

BlueFirePony
04-22-2010, 08:44 AM
Please explain to me why you wouldnt want to run w/ 8-10 other AI cars.
Please.

I don't feel like buying a 50 ton press to get it to sink into your thick skull.


Al, if you are only looking at points on an event by event basis, you are wrong. Where is the incentive to show up if you can't climb in the points battle to win year end Toyo bucks because someone has been running on Hoosiers or had no dyno and scored points? What about the year end MM contingency that gets hosed up by "fun run" cars? There is $1500 or so you could be screwing people out of at the end of the year and I doubt for a minute you have considered that in your short-sighted decision matrix.
Wow, just wow.

mitchntx
04-22-2010, 09:02 AM
Please explain to me why you wouldnt want to run w/ 8-10 other AI cars.
Please.

I don't feel like buying a 50 ton press to get it to sink into your thick skull.


Al, if you are only looking at points on an event by event basis, you are wrong. Where is the incentive to show up if you can't climb in the points battle to win year end Toyo bucks because someone has been running on Hoosiers or had no dyno and scored points? What about the year end MM contingency that gets hosed up by "fun run" cars? There is $1500 or so you could be screwing people out of at the end of the year and I doubt for a minute you have considered that in your short-sighted decision matrix.

C'Mon, Matt. You are just arguing to be arguing, now.

You are a big Hoosier tire fan. Get a set and come on out and "fun run" yourself and climb your own way up the points ladder.

RichardP
04-22-2010, 09:42 AM
Al, if you are only looking at points on an event by event basis, you are wrong. Where is the incentive to show up if you can't climb in the points battle to win year end Toyo bucks because someone has been running on Hoosiers or had no dyno and scored points?


The fields are not deep enough for any of the contingencies to be activated. Letting extra cars play helps the contingencies. The people involved don't mind what is going on. You are not one of the involved people.

It's OK for you to go away now. Please.


Richard P.

BlueFirePony
04-22-2010, 01:25 PM
Wow, just wow.
Hoping to make up for getting distracted and posting off topic.


Back on topic.

The CCR says:
18.8 Battery
The battery shall be securely fastened down to the car.

Check


No Bungee cords or rubber cords may be used to function as the sole hold down mechanism.

Check


An electrically nonconductive material must cover the positive battery terminal.

Check


Any battery located inside the driver’s compartment shall be fully covered and firmly secured to the chassis in a
marine type battery case.

Maybe check. Battery box is mounted in the trunk but there is nothing really between me and the trunk with the back seats removed. Clarification on what constitutes inside the driver's compartment please? I am assuming the "intent" is within the front of the car from the main hoop forward to the firewall? But maybe it extends past the hoop to the rear of the driver and if so is the trunk delineated by where the back seats were? Still learning here...


True dry cell batteries may be mounted without a surrounding case, however a case is still recommended. Note- there is a difference between “dry cells” and “gel cells.” Gel cells still need to be mounted in a case.

Check - Check



From what I know, a Marine Type Case is a plastic case. So, make sure your case is of non-metalic material. Also, as said before, the case is not there to hold the battery. That is the job of the battery hold down.
My thinking is that if "inside the driver's compartment" excludes the trunk area then my metal box is fine...otherwise I need to replace with, essentially, a non-conductive (ala plastic) case.

BTW, I like Richard's idea of clamping at an angle - I think that would be a wise modification to make.

Fbody383
04-22-2010, 01:34 PM
Any battery located inside the driver’s compartment shall be fully covered and firmly secured to the chassis in a
marine type battery case.


Maybe check. Battery box is mounted in the trunk but there is nothing really between me and the trunk with the back seats removed. Clarification on what constitutes inside the driver's compartment please? I am assuming the "intent" is within the front of the car from the main hoop forward to the firewall? But maybe it extends past the hoop to the rear of the driver and if so is the trunk delineated by where the back seats were? Still learning here...


I'll throw the dice.

Absent a complete "firewall," i.e. appropriate panel to separate the spaces, it's still considered to be in the driver's compartment.

And I think I've learned that you should not use metal thick enough to be called "plate" to do that.

mitchntx
04-22-2010, 01:36 PM
I would interpret intent in this case that if you and the contents of that battery can co-mingle, it needs to be inside a box.

BlueFirePony
04-22-2010, 02:07 PM
I would interpret intent in this case that if you and the contents of that battery can co-mingle, it needs to be inside a box.
And therefore a full covered, marine style case - aka plastic box, yes? My battery is clamped and in a box, but it's a metal box.

David Love AI27
04-22-2010, 02:08 PM
Any battery located inside the driver’s compartment shall be fully covered and firmly secured to the chassis in a
marine type battery case.


Maybe check. Battery box is mounted in the trunk but there is nothing really between me and the trunk with the back seats removed. Clarification on what constitutes inside the driver's compartment please? I am assuming the "intent" is within the front of the car from the main hoop forward to the firewall? But maybe it extends past the hoop to the rear of the driver and if so is the trunk delineated by where the back seats were? Still learning here...


I'll throw the dice.

Absent a complete "firewall," i.e. appropriate panel to separate the spaces, it's still considered to be in the driver's compartment.

And I think I've learned that you should not use metal thick enough to be called "plate" to do that.

INTERESTING... and what is the MINIMUM thickness of the so called rear firewall 1", 2" maybe 3"... any chance this rear firewall is located above the rear axles?

AI#97
04-22-2010, 02:52 PM
C'Mon, Matt. You are just arguing to be arguing, now.



No Mitch, I'm not. I'm doing my damnedest to try and preserve what REAL racing in AI used to be before the CMC Trio implemented their power grab. I'm also sick of the double standard that I have to spend time and money to be compliant to run, yet others are allowed to just goof around and play. If you want fun runs or are unable or willing to be compliant, sign up for HPDE...it's a lot cheaper and You can still attend the bar b ques on saturday night and won't have to worry about Glenn wanting to DQ your car because Al told you that you were legal...

I know full well there are 5 cars NOT racing AI in TX over the last 4 years, possibly more, because of the crap going on OR more importantly, the fact that they don't want to deal with Al, Todd or Glenn as the leaders of AI and would prefer David or Mike running AI. That would more than double the current legal AI field last time I looked at the results sheets unless they decide to class more CMC2 cars into AI after the fact. :roll:

This whole situation boils down to something like this. Say National decides that the guy running Spec Pinata can increase car count more than Al/Glenn in CMC/2 because the SM director lied and told national that Al/Glenn didn't want to be directors anymore without EVER conferring with them. They appoint the guy, who has no clue what a CMC car is all about, loves tear downs, condones all contact as "damn, that sucks", and doesn't care about YOU because he KNOWS he isn't wrong and will tell you HIS way is the ONLY way all day long. He goes and re-writes the rules so he can more easily manage his new series and possibly marry the two series together later because he thinks you should be running 4 cylinder engines like a Miata (Ie...The Miata, Camaro and Mustang Challenge...call it MCMC for short). Then, when Mitch "little kitty" Warren raises his hand and cries "FOUL!...Why are we doing this new X thing?"....you get told YOU don't know anything about MCMC and if you don't like it you can leave as he tells you "This is how I ran MY SERIES and that's what those drivers like, so you will have to like it too." See how long it takes for you to get pissed off and move to another series... OR, you put all your shit up for sale...AGAIN :roll:

That's the problem here with the trio in charge of AI and that too many people are blinded by their hatred of me or a preconceived notion that I just LOVE to argue till I get my way to see what is really going on... :roll: You all couldn't be any more wrong...SERIOUSLY. I could cure cancer tomorrow and you are so blinded by your preconceived notions about me, you would spite me for doing so even if YOU yourself had cancer. Hell, I think Glenn would walk off a cliff if I told him not to even though it's smart and rational and I'm more informed about why NOT to jump off a cliff.

I guess Ron White was correct....you can't fix stupid.

Oh, and Richard....field an AI car or shut your trap and go play with Scott Whitehead on Corner Carvers with all the wannabe race car drivers who haven't fielded a car in the series for over 3 years, but ALWAYS feel the need to interject and help write the rules. :roll: You have your own reasons for not racing here but apparently are too chicken to voice them. You act as if you are so righteous on here but I've heard words uttered from your mouth that would rival any criticism I have had the balls to post in the past. Don't be a hypocrite.

michaelmosty
04-22-2010, 03:01 PM
I'm going to get the battery box installed in the car tonight.
Thanks for all the suggestions. 8)

RichardP
04-22-2010, 03:14 PM
My thinking is that if "inside the driver's compartment" excludes the trunk area then my metal box is fine...otherwise I need to replace with, essentially, a non-conductive (ala plastic) case.

I wouldn't worry about your metal box for the time being. I've never seen a metal battery box fail tech. Make sure your battery is secure and go from there. Making changes before you know what might change can lead to frustration and extra work. Fix it if/when the rule is revised.


Richard P.

RichardP
04-22-2010, 03:16 PM
Oh, and Richard.


I'm embarrassed that I ever thought of you as a fellow competitor or a friend...


Richard

marshall_mosty
04-22-2010, 03:27 PM
What would be the disadvantage to allow the dry-cell batteries in CMC?

With the current cost of a decent battery $80 + box and tie down fab ($25-100), it makes a 12-lb dry cell battery more of an option, right?

Since it's light, you don't ever have the speculation that the box (that isn't required to be there anymore) is ballast.

Just a quick search on google gave me this:
http://www.portablepower.com
Odyssey PC680 $106.45

This is the same battery I have in my AI car (but make by Hawker), and it has worked very well. It weighs 12 lbs and mounts with a few pieces of all-thread and some aluminum angle.

cjlmlml
04-22-2010, 03:36 PM
You can thank Obama for all of this.

Fbody383
04-22-2010, 03:51 PM
What would be the disadvantage to allow the dry-cell batteries in CMC? Too much like the upper dash trim piece in 4th gens and optisparks?

I'm gonna print out my favorite threads and let the authors read their posts around the campfire on Saturday.

Alien
04-22-2010, 03:55 PM
Just a quick search on google gave me this:
http://www.portablepower.com
Odyssey PC680 $106.45


Battery Type: VRLA/AGM

AGM != dry cell

Q. Is the ODYSSEY® battery a completely dry battery?
A. Because the ODYSSEY battery has no free acid inside, it is covered under the US Department of Transportation (USDOT) unregulated "wet nonspillable wet electric storage batteries" classification and International Air Transport Association (IATA) "unrestricted" air shipments categories. These batteries may be shipped completely worry-free. Supporting documentation is readily available.

mitchntx
04-22-2010, 04:05 PM
C'Mon, Matt. You are just arguing to be arguing, now.


No Mitch, I'm not.


I don't understand your agenda by coming here and posting the same set of problems and issues over and over and over and over and over.

What do you expect to accomplish?




I guess Ron White was correct....you can't fix stupid.


"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results."
Rita Mae Brown in her book Sudden Death on Pg. 68 from 1983.

michaelmosty
04-22-2010, 04:20 PM
What would be the disadvantage to allow the dry-cell batteries in CMC? Too much like the upper dash trim piece in 4th gens and optisparks?

I'm gonna print out my favorite threads and let the authors read their posts around the campfire on Saturday.
Only do this if the author is able to act out the personalities and emotions of each posting individual. This could get fun! :lol:

David Love AI27
04-22-2010, 04:23 PM
What would be the disadvantage to allow the dry-cell batteries in CMC? Too much like the upper dash trim piece in 4th gens and optisparks?

I'm gonna print out my favorite threads and let the authors read their posts around the campfire on Saturday.
Only do this if the author is able to act out the personalities and emotions of each posting individual. This could get fun! :lol:

Do I need to bring my school desk and props???

AllZWay
04-22-2010, 04:27 PM
What would be the disadvantage to allow the dry-cell batteries in CMC? Too much like the upper dash trim piece in 4th gens and optisparks?

I'm gonna print out my favorite threads and let the authors read their posts around the campfire on Saturday.
Only do this if the author is able to act out the personalities and emotions of each posting individual. This could get fun! :lol:

After a few beers....this could be tons of fun. :lol:

I bet there is less drama in a beauty pagent. :P

David Love AI27
04-22-2010, 04:30 PM
What is the topic, again.... OH yes, Battery Boxes...

I looked in all my cars and I have one in each of them. AND there is a battery in each box, one has a big heavy yellow one, one has a big heavy red one and one has whatever Walmart had on sale at the time of purchase...

are you allowed a "backup" battery to go with secondary ignition system, in case of failure??

GlennCMC70
04-22-2010, 04:38 PM
C'Mon, Matt. You are just arguing to be arguing, now.



No Mitch, I'm not. I'm doing my damnedest to try and preserve what REAL racing in AI used to be before the CMC Trio implemented their power grab. I'm also sick of the double standard that I have to spend time and money to be compliant to run, yet others are allowed to just goof around and play. If you want fun runs or are unable or willing to be compliant, sign up for HPDE...it's a lot cheaper and You can still attend the bar b ques on saturday night and won't have to worry about Glenn wanting to DQ your car because Al told you that you were legal...

I know full well there are 5 cars NOT racing AI in TX over the last 4 years, possibly more, because of the crap going on OR more importantly, the fact that they don't want to deal with Al, Todd or Glenn as the leaders of AI and would prefer David or Mike running AI. That would more than double the current legal AI field last time I looked at the results sheets unless they decide to class more CMC2 cars into AI after the fact. :roll:

This whole situation boils down to something like this. Say National decides that the guy running Spec Pinata can increase car count more than Al/Glenn in CMC/2 because the SM director lied and told national that Al/Glenn didn't want to be directors anymore without EVER conferring with them. They appoint the guy, who has no clue what a CMC car is all about, loves tear downs, condones all contact as "damn, that sucks", and doesn't care about YOU because he KNOWS he isn't wrong and will tell you HIS way is the ONLY way all day long. He goes and re-writes the rules so he can more easily manage his new series and possibly marry the two series together later because he thinks you should be running 4 cylinder engines like a Miata (Ie...The Miata, Camaro and Mustang Challenge...call it MCMC for short). Then, when Mitch "little kitty" Warren raises his hand and cries "FOUL!...Why are we doing this new X thing?"....you get told YOU don't know anything about MCMC and if you don't like it you can leave as he tells you "This is how I ran MY SERIES and that's what those drivers like, so you will have to like it too." See how long it takes for you to get pissed off and move to another series... OR, you put all your shit up for sale...AGAIN :roll:

That's the problem here with the trio in charge of AI and that too many people are blinded by their hatred of me or a preconceived notion that I just LOVE to argue till I get my way to see what is really going on... :roll: You all couldn't be any more wrong...SERIOUSLY. I could cure cancer tomorrow and you are so blinded by your preconceived notions about me, you would spite me for doing so even if YOU yourself had cancer. Hell, I think Glenn would walk off a cliff if I told him not to even though it's smart and rational and I'm more informed about why NOT to jump off a cliff.

I guess Ron White was correct....you can't fix stupid.

Oh, and Richard....field an AI car or shut your trap and go play with Scott Whitehead on Corner Carvers with all the wannabe race car drivers who haven't fielded a car in the series for over 3 years, but ALWAYS feel the need to interject and help write the rules. :roll: You have your own reasons for not racing here but apparently are too chicken to voice them. You act as if you are so righteous on here but I've heard words uttered from your mouth that would rival any criticism I have had the balls to post in the past. Don't be a hypocrite.



You dont own an airplane do you? Cause that sounded like a manifesto.

Tried to send a PM, but I got an "Invalid User ID" error.

BlueFirePony
04-22-2010, 05:24 PM
What would be the disadvantage to allow the dry-cell batteries in CMC? Too much like the upper dash trim piece in 4th gens and optisparks?

I'm gonna print out my favorite threads and let the authors read their posts around the campfire on Saturday.
Only do this if the author is able to act out the personalities and emotions of each posting individual. This could get fun! :lol:

Do I need to bring my school desk and props???
No...those are comedic master pieces that will only be marginalized by those without your touch....and a case of 5 hour drinks ;)

Mrs. Crumpacker
04-23-2010, 02:04 PM
What would be the disadvantage to allow the dry-cell batteries in CMC? Too much like the upper dash trim piece in 4th gens and optisparks?

I'm gonna print out my favorite threads and let the authors read their posts around the campfire on Saturday.
Only do this if the author is able to act out the personalities and emotions of each posting individual. This could get fun! :lol:

After a few beers....this could be tons of fun. :lol:

I bet there is less drama in a beauty pagent. :P

This absolutely needs to happen. We will supply the video camera! :lol:

Sam's suggestion: Have other people pretend to be the posters.
Ex: Frank as MFW and Randy as Glenn

Todd Covini
04-23-2010, 09:12 PM
Oh gosh...."Battery Boxes" went from zero to 9 pages with 122 replies and 1336 views since April 17th.

I don't have all nite...dare I read it all?

Can someone give me the Reader's Digest condensed version? :lol:

Todd Covini
04-23-2010, 09:53 PM
Nevermind....I got sucked in and read it all and now have reader's remorse.

Some interesting perspectives...

-=- Todd

Jrod
04-23-2010, 11:46 PM
Absent a complete "firewall," i.e. appropriate panel to separate the spaces, it's still considered to be in the driver's compartment.

And I think I've learned that you should not use metal thick enough to be called "plate" to do that.

INTERESTING... and what is the MINIMUM thickness of the so called rear firewall 1", 2" maybe 3"... any chance this rear firewall is located above the rear axles?

I don't know what constitutes firewall material around here, but for structural steel welding, AWS D1.3 sheet metal code states:
This welding code covers arc welding of structural sheet/strip steels, including cold formed members (hereafter collectively referred to as sheet steel) which are equal to or less than 3/16 in. (0.188 in. / 4.8 mm) in nominal thickness.
Thicker materials fall into the D1.1 structural steel code, commonly considered 'plate' steel.
On top of looking highly suspicious for 'free' ballast, 1/4" or greater firewall would be kind of a pain to weld to the factory steel.

David Love AI27
04-24-2010, 12:20 AM
'free' ballast

I believe the topic is battery boxes and fire walls... don't recall ANY comments concerning "ballast"... that would be another topic all together...

Jrod
04-24-2010, 12:28 AM
I suppose I was responding more to the 'don't use plate for a firewall' comment than your post. There seemed to be some discussion about the legality of excessively thick boxes earlier; I only intended to add a data point for material selection.

David Love AI27
04-24-2010, 06:57 AM
I suppose I was responding more to the 'don't use plate for a firewall' comment than your post. There seemed to be some discussion about the legality of excessively thick boxes earlier; I only intended to add a data point for material selection.

Ok.. well that is different... LOL