So what is so special about Hallett?

[mitchntx]

The trophies ...

http://lawmotorsports.net/Pics/AI-CMC%20001.jpg

Jerry and Al came up with a plan for something special to award the podium finishers at Hallett. And after many phone calls, e-mail and sparks, this is what Jerry produced.

As I understand it, the base will be black and white checkered, the back will be powder coated silver and the medallions up front will be red.

And the real estate up front is for the NASA-Texas award.

Great job, Jerry and Al

[Jeremy Gunter]

deleted cause I was acting like Glenn White. Great work though guys!!!

[ShadowBolt]

I did make these but Mitch came up with 95% of the design. After powdercoating they are going to look kick-ass! You did a great job Mitch! Thanks for the help.

JJ

[Alien]

Where's the smiley wik the two huge thumbs up?

well, that ^^^ to Mitch, Jerry and Al.

[Jeremy Gunter]

...

[Rob Liebbe]

I can't wait to win me one of them!!!!!

[BlueFirePony]

Incredible!

[mitchntx]

aw shucks, Jerry ... you give me way too much credit.

[ShadowBolt]

aw shucks, Jerry ... you give me way too much credit.

You design it and I build it.

JJ

[mitchntx]

This thing is what 10" wide, 6" deep and 5" tall?


While talking with Leinert this evening, I had another idea.
Sent you an e-mail.

[michaelmosty]

That looks simply amazing, great work guys!!

[Chuck]

Very nice!!!

Chuck
CMC #14

[AllZWay]

Simply put ...... AWESOME!!!

[kbrewmr2]

holy crap, those are awesome!

[Al Fernandez]

As is typical...Mitch is responsible for the concept and design, Jerry is responsible for the physical work, and I'm responsible for...managing and taking credit :lol: :wink:

Cant give enough thanks to Mitch and Jerry for making these possible. Just outstanding!! :D

[Rob Liebbe]

What's the point structure for the Shootout again. A link to previous thread will work.

[David Love AI27]

What's the point structure for the Shootout again. A link to previous thread will work.

Qualify in front of the 19, finish 4 races in front of the 19 and take home a trophy.. sounds simple...

[David Love AI27]

What's the point structure for the Shootout again. A link to previous thread will work.

Qualify in front of the 19, finish 4 races in front of the 19 and take home a trophy.. sounds simple...

[GlennCMC70]

What's the point structure for the Shootout again. A link to previous thread will work.

This is the only thread I found on it.
http://www.aicmctexas.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3473&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
I'm still unclear to the fine details. Points for each of three races will be tallied to determin starting position for the final 40 minute race. How many qual sessions is still unknown. Do we flip the finish for R1 to determin R2 grid? I think.
I'll get ahold of Al and work this out. Look for a responce in a week or so.

[michaelmosty]

The black/white checker with silver and red sounds like an awesome color combination!! 8)

[GlennCMC70]

Found this on the CMC Forum.


At Hallett we'll have a total of four races;
Race 1: 30 minutes, standing start, order in each class based on qual session times

Race 2: 30 minutes, rolling start, order in each class is the invert of R1 finish

Race 3: 30 minutes, rolling start, order in each class is the invert of R2 finish

Race 4, the Summer Shootout: 40 minutes, standing start, order in each class determined by the total points earned in R1-R3.

[ShadowBolt]

The black/white checker with silver and red sounds like an awesome color combination!! 8)

I was thinking Black and Red would have been nice.


JJ

[GlennCMC70]

Black, Silver and Lime Green fells, thats where its at!

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/6684/pt2uj4.jpg

http://www.lawmotorsports.net/Pics/Glenn/web/Glenn_MO_06_1_750.jpg

[kbrewmr2]

That 4th race I assume is a "winner take all"?

I'll have to be sure to watch that one :shock: :twisted:

[jeremiahkellam]

What's the point structure for the Shootout again. A link to previous thread will work.

I'm assuming it's the same one they use for Nats, which is located in the CCR (I think it is the same point structure that AI uses...)

[jeremiahkellam]

I'm going to put this out there one more time... I think the idea of griding based on a points system with 2 inverted races in flawed. Think with me here...

You go out and qualify 1st and finish the first race in first, you start the second race from the back and finish 6th, assuming we have about 15 cars in each class, you the start the third race in 9th, and lets say you manage to finish 3rd. That will give you 255 points.

Now on the other hand, you qual 1st, finish first, start the next race last, do 2 laps and pull off in last, start the third race in 1st again and check out in the last race (ask Mosty how easy his win was after starting first on the invert last year...) This would give you 260 points...

How is that fair? DEATH TO SANDBAGGERS!!!!!

(my calculations might be off, but not more than 2 points +/-)

[AllZWay]

The black/white checker with silver and red sounds like an awesome color combination!! 8)

I was thinking Black and Red would have been nice.


JJ

Actually Red with Black. :P

[Rob Liebbe]

Black, Silver and Lime Green fells, thats where its at!

http://www.lawmotorsports.net/Pics/Glenn/web/Glenn_MO_06_1_750.jpg

We'll have David Love add the lime green to your car Saturday night! Your numbers don't count as they are "piss-yellow".

Thanks for the link to the other thread - It reminded me that I may need a beer and you offered to buy it!

"Rob, you need a beer. I'm buying." - Glenn Landrum

[Alien]

Doesn't (or didn't) Nascar do a thing during one of their 'special' races where the last segment may or may not have inverted the top ten cars? It was decided by flip of a coin.

Two thoughts come out of this. One is only invert the top x cars for the 3rd race. Or, invert the class or not based on a coin flip after the 2nd race.

[GlennCMC70]

I'm going to put this out there one more time... I think the idea of griding based on a points system with 2 inverted races in flawed. Think with me here...

You go out and qualify 1st and finish the first race in first, you start the second race from the back and finish 6th, assuming we have about 15 cars in each class, you the start the third race in 9th, and lets say you manage to finish 3rd. That will give you 255 points.

Now on the other hand, you qual 1st, finish first, start the next race last, do 2 laps and pull off in last, start the third race in 1st again and check out in the last race (ask Mosty how easy his win was after starting first on the invert last year...) This would give you 260 points...

How is that fair? DEATH TO SANDBAGGERS!!!!!

(my calculations might be off, but not more than 2 points +/-)

I understand the issue you have pointed out. I'll address this w/ the others. Would a qual session for grid of R3 fix it?

Also, why does this senario not play out for season points?

[Rob Liebbe]

Use qual times from previous events where you know they weren't sandbagging. Hard to normalize across regions though.

Fastest Individual Lap time from Race 3.

Draw numbers from a hat.

Fastest Exit Test driver goes first.

By car number, lowest first to highest last.

Cars painted like state flags start first.

Wirtz and Landrum always start in the back - facing perpindicular to the track and nose to nose.

The Orange AI Trans Am in front and block everyone equally this time.

Eric Varner's Lemons car always starts last.

Is this helping?

[GlennCMC70]

no

[jeremiahkellam]

I'm going to put this out there one more time... I think the idea of griding based on a points system with 2 inverted races in flawed. Think with me here...

You go out and qualify 1st and finish the first race in first, you start the second race from the back and finish 6th, assuming we have about 15 cars in each class, you the start the third race in 9th, and lets say you manage to finish 3rd. That will give you 255 points.

Now on the other hand, you qual 1st, finish first, start the next race last, do 2 laps and pull off in last, start the third race in 1st again and check out in the last race (ask Mosty how easy his win was after starting first on the invert last year...) This would give you 260 points...

How is that fair? DEATH TO SANDBAGGERS!!!!!

(my calculations might be off, but not more than 2 points +/-)

I understand the issue you have pointed out. I'll address this w/ the others. Would a qual session for grid of R3 fix it?

Also, why does this senario not play out for season points?

I think it has Glenn, ask Wirtz how he lost the '08 CMC championship... I'm just saying...

[GlennCMC70]

No matter. We are looking into it.
When I asked about the Season Points, I was looking at if from a every invert POV. Due to the Hallett Formatt it seems work that way.
I've already addressed it w/ the others involved.

As for JB and Wirtz in 2008, I'm sure JB knew what he needed to do to win. That strategy would not have worked for a whole season.

[GlennCMC70]

One way to fix this would be to add a Q2. Or we could use fastest lap time from R2 for grid of R3. For fastest average of the whole R2.

The point of the inverts was to keep everyone in the hunt for a good finish all the way up to the end (R4). I dont want to base everything off of Qual, lap times and finish position.
I dont like random stuff either as it requires no driver skill to do things like pick car #1 as your car number.
Open to ideas.

[Rob Liebbe]

no 8)

[Al Fernandez]

Yep, absolutely open to ideas...other than adding a qual session as we dont have time in the schedule for that and maintain the race lengths.

[michaelmosty]

It is tough b/c I like multiple formats.
I can see running the "main race" based off a qualifying but I love the fact that all three previous races factor into where you start for R4.

What if we do something unique like factoring in both finishing positions for R1-R3 as well as qualifying for R4. To do this we would have to shorten a couple of the races by 5 minutes but we already have an insane amount of "race time". We could make up 15 minutes by running R1-30 min, R2-25 min, R3-25 min, and R4-35 min.
Take the qualifying position for R4 and subtract it from your total race points from R1-R3. If you qualify 5th you subtract 5 from your total points accumulated from R1-R3 to get your total points leading into R4.

Just throwing out random ideas. 8)

[GlennCMC70]

If there is a Q2, it will be for R3 grid, not R4 grid.

We could just do away w/ the invert's, but I do not like not having inverts. Those are a major factor in why we have so many great racers here in TX.

[Todd Covini]

Unbelievable trophies and simply awesome initiative!

Huge thanks to Mitch, Jerry & Al for making those happen!
We need to continue to work toward making "Summer Nationals" a special event, and a nice prep for the National Championship.

With that, I like all the ideas toward the points structure to help achieve that goal. We'll continue to work this with Glenn's help/prodding/leadership.

-=- Todd

[michaelmosty]

If there is a Q2, it will be for R3 grid, not R4 grid.

We could just do away w/ the invert's, but I do not like not having inverts. Those are a major factor in why we have so many great racers here in TX.
Agreed, the inverts is what makes it so beneficial for all individuals.
I love the fact that R4 is the determining race.

Since this is an abnormal weekend what if we make R1 + R4 based on qualifying. R2 is an invert from R1 and R3 is a completely random draw. (Nothing that gives an advantage to a certain group (youngest - oldest,#1-#99, bald vs. alot of hair) but a completely random draw with everyone's number in a hat and pick out all 40+ numbers (grouped by class).

[jeremiahkellam]

I've said it before, I understand and appreciate the beneift of running inverted races.

What if we revise the points format to give the lower finishing cars less points, but then they recieve the benefit of starting the next race up front. say 1st place gets 100, and then 5 points less for each place there after...???
Having a linear point format will reward consistancy rather than strategy.

[RichardP]

My preference would be:
Saturday qual session to grid first race
Second Saturday race inverted from first race
Third race Sunday based on fast laps from both Saturday races
Final race by points from first three races


Richard P.

[GlennCMC70]

My preference would be:
Saturday qual session to grid first race
Second Saturday race inverted from first race
Third race Sunday based on fast laps from both Saturday races
Final race by points from first three races


Richard P.

Thats what I proposed last night to Al, Todd Mike and Clifton. Only difference was I used the Sat R2 Invert fastest lap to grid R3 not both R1 and R2.

[GlennCMC70]

If there is a Q2, it will be for R3 grid, not R4 grid.

We could just do away w/ the invert's, but I do not like not having inverts. Those are a major factor in why we have so many great racers here in TX.
Agreed, the inverts is what makes it so beneficial for all individuals.
I love the fact that R4 is the determining race.

Since this is an abnormal weekend what if we make R1 + R4 based on qualifying. R2 is an invert from R1 and R3 is a completely random draw. (Nothing that gives an advantage to a certain group (youngest - oldest,#1-#99, bald vs. alot of hair) but a completely random draw with everyone's number in a hat and pick out all 40+ numbers (grouped by class).

I just do not like the random part of it. No skill required to place you on the grid well.

[michaelmosty]

If there is a Q2, it will be for R3 grid, not R4 grid.

We could just do away w/ the invert's, but I do not like not having inverts. Those are a major factor in why we have so many great racers here in TX.
Agreed, the inverts is what makes it so beneficial for all individuals.
I love the fact that R4 is the determining race.

Since this is an abnormal weekend what if we make R1 + R4 based on qualifying. R2 is an invert from R1 and R3 is a completely random draw. (Nothing that gives an advantage to a certain group (youngest - oldest,#1-#99, bald vs. alot of hair) but a completely random draw with everyone's number in a hat and pick out all 40+ numbers (grouped by class).

I just do not like the random part of it. No skill required to place you on the grid well.
Fair enough.
I think I'd like it if I benefited but would think it was a crappy idea if I was at the back. :)

[jeremiahkellam]

My preference would be:
Saturday qual session to grid first race
Second Saturday race inverted from first race
Third race Sunday based on fast laps from both Saturday races
Final race by points from first three races


Richard P.

I like the idea of doing times from both Sat races or if only taking times from race 2, take an average of the 3 best laps (if this is the route we are going...) Because so much hype has been placed on this race with the trophy and just good ole bragging rights, I don't want to see people that have no stake in the season points battle taking advantage of the situation because they too want to win the Summer Shootout. And I'll call Glenn out here, because you are a prime example...

You're not concerned with season points at all at this point. So you are the guy in my senario that sandbags to start up front, or (if you are only taking a single lap time from race 2) lags back and finds some open track to lay down one hot lap

I sure you wouldn't do that, I'm just throwing it out there because we've seen it happen in the past... It doesn't work in the long run, but when it comes down to a race or 2, it can play out that way, and it can be an even bigger advantage when racing at a track like Hallett with soooo many cars...

The more I run the numbers, I think the bigger spread in the points system would work to eliminate any monkey business. It will create a larger point spread in the end... but for those out racing like they should be, it will all be the same...

[mitchntx]

I thought hobbies were supposed to relieve stress, not promote it.

Not being a part of the points race, I am now concerned about pissing off those of you who are by simply not pulling over and giving you a point by on inverts. God help me if I mess up your points race.

Silly me thinking all this was supposed to be fun.

[Jeremy Gunter]

Silly me thinking all this was supposed to be fun.

Can it be fun and serious at the same time? Stress relief isn't the same for everyone.

[mitchntx]

Good point.

Time to evaluate and assess priorities. This has clearly gone beyond what I consider fun.

[Rob Liebbe]

Good point.

Time to evaluate and assess priorities. This has clearly gone beyond what I consider fun.

Spoken like a man who has all girls. :roll:

[cobra132]

Double the points for R1 ,as this is the only qualifing race, so it will be 50% of the total. R2 and R3 will be 25% each and make a "special" trophy for JK. FMR

[jeremiahkellam]

make a "special" trophy for JK. FMR

I'll just take the one pictured above... :lol:

I'm really just f'ing with all of you. Playing mind games... I already have Mitch looking in his mirrors... :shock: I'll be looking for that point by, if you point left, I'm going right!!

My focus is on Nats and season points. I could care less if I win another race at this point (other than Nats), I'm just going for strong consistant finishes.....

You believe that Jeremy...??? :wink:

[Jeremy Gunter]

My focus is on Nats and season points. I could care less if I win another race at this point (other than Nats), I'm just going for strong consistant finishes.....

You believe that Jeremy...??? :wink:

Of course I do! and I'm glad you're thinking that way. I would hate to upset you before you go to nats... :lol:

[jeremiahkellam]

My focus is on Nats and season points. I could care less if I win another race at this point (other than Nats), I'm just going for strong consistant finishes.....

You believe that Jeremy...??? :wink:

Of course I do! and I'm glad you're thinking that way. I would hate to upset you before you go to nats... :lol:

That's the idea! By the way... good luck with chasing those HP/ TQ #s... :lol:

[ShadowBolt]

I thought hobbies were supposed to relieve stress, not promote it.

Not being a part of the points race, I am now concerned about pissing off those of you who are by simply not pulling over and giving you a point by on inverts. God help me if I mess up your points race.

Silly me thinking all this was supposed to be fun.


Screw the points. Lets race!


JJ

[GlennCMC70]

So what about this:
R1 - grid set by qual
R2 - grid set by invert of R1 finish
R3 - grid set by pionts earned from R1 and R2.
R4 - grid set by points earned from R1, R2, R3.
So far, this could be the best answer. JK - please find the flaw in this proposal.

Or we could use finish position instead of points. R3 grid could be set by your average finish position from R1 and R2.

The problem is this, we are trying to have a NASA Nationals format race weekend by using an inverted race as a factor. NASA Nationals obviously does not do this, so we have introduced an anomaly into that format. We either do away w/ the invert, get creative w/ the format, or develope a points scale that deviates from CMC, AI and the CCR. The later being something I think will work, but I would like to find another solution.

[David Love AI27]

we could use finish position instead of points. R3 grid could be set by your average finish position from R1 and R2.



More weight given to R1 in case of a tie..


just my $0.02, not that it matters

[GlennCMC70]

Accually, we would default to fastest lap turned between R1 and R2 for ties (I would guess.)

[michaelmosty]

So what about this:
R1 - grid set by qual
R2 - grid set by invert of R1 finish
R3 - grid set by pionts earned from R1 and R2.
R4 - grid set by points earned from R1, R2, R3.

Sounds like a great solution to me.

[jeremiahkellam]

JK - please find the flaw in this proposal.

The problem is this, we are trying to have a NASA Nationals format race weekend by using an inverted race as a factor. NASA Nationals obviously does not do this, so we have introduced an anomaly into that format. We either do away w/ the invert, get creative w/ the format, or develope a points scale that deviates from CMC, AI and the CCR. The later being something I think will work, but I would like to find another solution.

Don't put his off on me like I'm causing a problem! You explained it yourself. This is being built up to be the "Unofficial, but as far as CMC goes, this is where the real Champions are, Nationals."

I could care less if anything changes from the current format. The races are long enough that it will all play out the same in the end.

You LAW boys sure get your feelings hurt easily, you don't have any boys either, do you...???

[GlennCMC70]

JK - please find the flaw in this proposal.

The problem is this, we are trying to have a NASA Nationals format race weekend by using an inverted race as a factor. NASA Nationals obviously does not do this, so we have introduced an anomaly into that format. We either do away w/ the invert, get creative w/ the format, or develope a points scale that deviates from CMC, AI and the CCR. The later being something I think will work, but I would like to find another solution.

Don't put his off on me like I'm causing a problem! You explained it yourself. This is being built up to be the "Unofficial, but as far as CMC goes, this is where the real Champions are, Nationals."

I could care less if anything changes from the current format. The races are long enough that it will all play out the same in the end.

You LAW boys sure get your feelings hurt easily, you don't have any boys either, do you...???

Get off the defensive. I never implied you were causing a problem. Busting your balls more than anything, but also pointing out you have done a good job finding flaws in the proposed system. You are now the "go to" guy for this. So settle down. You really need to relax.
I can assure you my feelings are in very good shape.

[jeremiahkellam]

JK - please find the flaw in this proposal.

The problem is this, we are trying to have a NASA Nationals format race weekend by using an inverted race as a factor. NASA Nationals obviously does not do this, so we have introduced an anomaly into that format. We either do away w/ the invert, get creative w/ the format, or develope a points scale that deviates from CMC, AI and the CCR. The later being something I think will work, but I would like to find another solution.

Don't put his off on me like I'm causing a problem! You explained it yourself. This is being built up to be the "Unofficial, but as far as CMC goes, this is where the real Champions are, Nationals."

I could care less if anything changes from the current format. The races are long enough that it will all play out the same in the end.

You LAW boys sure get your feelings hurt easily, you don't have any boys either, do you...???

Get off the defensive. I never implied you were causing a problem. Busting your balls more than anything, but also pointing out you have done a good job finding flaws in the proposed system. You are now the "go to" guy for this. So settle down. You really need to relax.
I can assure you my feelings are in very good shape.

Was that a compliment Glenn???
Ahhh shucks!!! :oops: I love you too!! :wink:

[GlennCMC70]

Now I just take it all back.

Is that an apology?

[Papa Kellam]

Enough already.
I like Glenn's idea: R1 grid by qual time, R2 grid invert from R1 finish, R3 grid by points from R1 & R2, R4 grid by points from R1/R2/R3.
Did I get that right?

By the way, I don't but the BS about your all out there just to have fun. If you only wanted fun you wouldn't spend the money and time you do in this group. You can go to the go-cart track on Saturdays and have "fun" and it's a lot cheaper. No matter what level you are at, racing is serious. The fun starts after the racing.

Hope I'm not out of line here.

Have a nice day :)

[mitchntx]

My feelings are far from hurt. The atmosphere has evolved, that's all.

[jeremiahkellam]

My feelings are far from hurt. The atmosphere has evolved, that's all.

How did NASCAR go from running booze to the marketing billion dollar giant it is today???

Competition. It's why every one of us races. If we didn't want it to be competitive, there are plently of "car clubs" we could join that cruise the back roads on Sunday...

I'm a huge fan of boxing, amatuer and pro levels both. I find it amazing that 2 guys can hype themselves up to that level and give and take a beating, and 2 seconds after the final bell, they are hugging and high fiving... It's all sport, you just have to decide, are you a good sportsman, or not...

[GlennCMC70]

Enough already.
I like Glenn's idea: R1 grid by qual time, R2 grid invert from R1 finish, R3 grid by points from R1 & R2, R4 grid by points from R1/R2/R3.
Did I get that right?

By the way, I don't but the BS about your all out there just to have fun. If you only wanted fun you wouldn't spend the money and time you do in this group. You can go to the go-cart track on Saturdays and have "fun" and it's a lot cheaper. No matter what level you are at, racing is serious. The fun starts after the racing.

Hope I'm not out of line here.

Have a nice day :)
Wise Old Man you are PK.

[David Love AI27]

you just have to decide, are you a good sportsman, or not...

NOT!!

[BlueFirePony]

How did NASCAR go from running booze to the marketing billion dollar giant it is today???

Competition.

Nah. It's all about the cute cheerleaders... Ooops. Sorry ...thought this was the taking-itself-too-seriously-NFL-is-losing-fanbase chatroom.

FWIW, I like the last proposal Glenn posted (R1 from Qual, R4 from R1+R2+R3)

I am just in this completely for fun - this year - next year different story.

[Fbody383]

NOT!!

Yeah, David Love not sportsman like... first KL on me, I'll have the party trailer there.

Hey Mosty! Since Jeremiah is out for having fun, he can join "Jeremy's Quest" and fight it out for the Hard Charger award.

Papa Kellam ~ how far from the tree did that apple fall?

[mitchntx]

My feelings are far from hurt. The atmosphere has evolved, that's all.

How did NASCAR go from running booze to the marketing billion dollar giant it is today???


I never got into this thinking I was in a "billion dollar giant" series. I never considered myself one apex away from getting a factory ride.

Yet the seriousness with which many here take this series is as if that possibility exists.

Glenn and I have had this conversation numerous times. I don't get you uber-competitve guys and you obviously can't figure out where I come from.

I don't get how a thread started about special trophies for a fun weekend and wound up about wringing every last point possible out a weekend.

[GlennCMC70]

I don't get how a thread started about special trophies for a fun weekend and wound up about wringing every last point possible out a weekend.

I think it wound up ensuring the system wasnt flawed. I would be pissed if I raced my ass off only to see the guy who sandbagged walk home w/ all the recognition. Not only would folks be pissed, but it would devalue the award. Sounds sort of like what was going on w/ the OG Racing Video Contest.
So we decided to kick this around and ensure that the entent of the award was protected. I'm sure 99.99% of all who show up will race w/ integrity and in the spirit of the event. But it only take 1 person to give it a bad name. It is best to remove the possibility before its exploited.
No reason to view the conversations here from a negative POV.

[ShadowBolt]

My feelings are far from hurt. The atmosphere has evolved, that's all.

How did NASCAR go from running booze to the marketing billion dollar giant it is today???


I never got into this thinking I was in a "billion dollar giant" series. I never considered myself one apex away from getting a factory ride.

Yet the seriousness with which many here take this series is as if that possibility exists.

Glenn and I have had this conversation numerous times. I don't get you uber-competitve guys and you obviously can't figure out where I come from.

I don't get how a thread started about special trophies for a fun weekend and wound up about wringing every last point possible out a weekend.


As usual we have managed to screw up a good thread!

Mitch, no one is more competitive than I am but I'm a realist also. I don't have the talent (or will not spend the time it takes to do like Jeremiah and go from midpack to the front in one season) but I do realize that I am racing with the best group of friends I have ever had and that we get a piece of plastic for winning. I have found that racing for fifth (like I did with Sam at TWS or the race Jay and Boudy had a Cresson for fourth or fifth) is as much fun as you can have on the track. I would rather race Sam every lap for fifth than be half a lap out front all by myself (but I do hope to win one someday). I will also give you racing room instead of the BS 3/4 rule. I want to race, not force you off the track or hit you.


Back on topic.....my paint shop ordered special gloss powders for the awards. Did I tell you what a good idea-man Mitch is? I would have never thought of making the awards look like the Hallett winners circle. The pic up top does not do it justice. We do have to come up with a way to put this all together. I have been thinking 5 minute epoxy........other ideas?

JJ

[GlennCMC70]

Drill holes in the base and weld studs to the back of the vertical parts that sit in the holes drilled in the base.

[GlennCMC70]

I took out the trash.

[Fbody383]

I would have never thought of making the awards look like the Hallett winners circle.This thing is gonna be cool! Can't wait to see it.

[mitchntx]

Mitch, no one is more competitive than I am but I'm a realist also. I don't have the talent (or will not spend the time it takes to do like Jeremiah and go from midpack to the front in one season) but I do realize that I am racing with the best group of friends I have ever had and that we get a piece of plastic for winning. I have found that racing for fifth (like I did with Sam at TWS or the race Jay and Boudy had a Cresson for fourth or fifth) is as much fun as you can have on the track. I would rather race Sam every lap for fifth than be half a lap out front all by myself (but I do hope to win one someday). I will also give you racing room instead of the BS 3/4 rule. I want to race, not force you off the track or hit you.


I appreciate your thoughts and sentiment. And that's why I like racing with you.

[AI#97]

I took out the trash.

bla, bla, bla.

[ShadowBolt]

Drill holes in the base and weld studs to the back of the vertical parts that sit in the holes drilled in the base.



I already have slots in the base but I could drill and tap the upright pieces and use machine screws.


JJ

[Jeremy Gunter]

So can something serious be fun? Or something fun be serious? What jk did last year was engrained into him long before he had a license. This is not an original thought of mine, but something brought up in conversation today... I played soccer in england at 6, traveling teams at 8, and quit to be a normal kid at 12. My brother played on a feeder team for manchester united so second in my family is a sad day.. For me to race middle of the pack is not acceptable in my mind. To be second for me is equal to being last, its not personal... I enjoy the company of each and every person at the track, love the respect given to everyone and respect that there are many reasons people do this. At the end of the day, you should be having fun, if you're not, don't think its someone elses fault.

[Cody Powell]

Mitch is the coolest guy I know! and I have a cat!

[mitchntx]

Jeremy, I don't think it's your fault. I don't think it's JK fault ... or Glenn's. It's no one's fault.

I know and accept the fact that you guys and others are willing to pay a price for being first. The difference is some are willing to pay Neiman Marcus prices and I'm only a K-Mart shopper.

At the end of the day, both of us will walk out of the store with clothes on our back. The only real difference is the label.

Does that help you understand my POV?

[mitchntx]

Mitch is the coolest guy I know! and I have a cat!

You need a bigger group of aquaintances ...

You coming to Hallett?

[Cody Powell]

Man you know I want to and I can't :twisted: I am finally working somewhat steady again!
On the bright side I am buying a 2000 Z28 with 30,000 mile to turn into a race car of some sort! Prolly AI but who knows?
Call me I sent you a PM!

[Al Fernandez]

Cody you're not allowed to miss Hallett. Oh, and dont forget the grass skirt.

Good discussion on options for R3 grid, keep the thoughts going.

[GlennCMC70]

So is everyone good w/ this solution?
R1 - grid set by qual
R2 - grid set by invert of R1 finish
R3 - grid set by pionts earned from R1 and R2.
R4 - grid set by points earned from R1, R2, R3.

Do we want to use the CCR points system or use average finishing position w/ fastest lap in R1/2 as the tie breaker?

[Al Fernandez]

Well, I'm not enamored with it since it eliminates one invert. From a pure fun perspective I'd rather have two inverts. From an official's perspective I can see that this format is less prone to sandbagging.

[AllZWay]

Well, I'm not enamored with it since it eliminates one invert. From a pure fun perspective I'd rather have two inverts. From an official's perspective I can see that this format is less prone to sandbagging.

I agree... I can see the sandbagging argument, but the other format sounded more fun.

And folks....despite the competitivness...this form of racing should be more about the fun than the must win at all costs.

I would guess that most within our groups have the talent to race at a higher level, but most are lacking the really only thing required to run at the next level..... MONEY...MONEY... MONEY!!!

[Rob Liebbe]

Well, I'm not enamored with it since it eliminates one invert. From a pure fun perspective I'd rather have two inverts. From an official's perspective I can see that this format is less prone to sandbagging.

I agree... I can see the sandbagging argument, but the other format sounded more fun.

And folks....despite the competitivness...this form of racing should be more about the fun than the must win at all costs.

I would guess that most within our groups have the talent to race at a higher level, but most are lacking the really only thing required to run at the next level..... MONEY...MONEY... MONEY!!!

I'll let you sponsor me at Daytona next year. :D

[AllZWay]

I'll let you sponsor me at Daytona next year. :D

I certainly DO NOT have money. :evil:

[Rob Liebbe]

I'll let you sponsor me at Daytona next year. :D

I certainly DO NOT have money. :evil:

Cheap bastard. See you at Hallet, we'll hammer out the details. :D

[rleng1]

I can understand JK's concern about sandbagging. We all want to see and be in good racing.
Can we use the initial format, but R4 will be based on R1-R3 points, no invert.
Regardless, it will be very intersting, good viewing for the spectators, and a helluva a show from my seat.
Good to hear from Cody Powell, my instructor (one of them. If I only had a pic of Proctor)

[jeremiahkellam]

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting a format change, I think the 2 inverts are great! I'm only looking at adjusting the point scale so the there is a larger spread in points. Basically, instead of 15th place getting something like 75 points, they only get 30. This would certainly keep me from purposely getting last just to start up front on the next race.

[kbrewmr2]

Might I suggest considering the points breakdown the ST & PT guys are using just for the event and just to determine the grid order for your race(s)?


CCR ST/PT Place
100 100 1
90 80 2
85 65 3
80 50 4
75 40 5
70 35 6
69 30 7
68 25 8
67 20 9
66 10 10
65 5 11
64 1 12
63 0 13

or some variation thereof - take the ball and run with it, just a free idea from someone with nothing to gain or lose :)

[Crumpacker]

Screw the points. Lets race!
JJ

I like where your head's at!

Oh... By the way JJ, we're tied in season points. :wink:

[David Love AI27]

Screw the points. Lets race!
JJ

I like where your head's at!

Oh... By the way JJ, we're tied in season points. :wink:

Love you guys...

[ShadowBolt]

Screw the points. Lets race!
JJ

I like where your head's at!

Oh... By the way JJ, we're tied in season points. :wink:

Love you guys...


Your just saying that cause you love our figures.

JJ

[Al Fernandez]

Ok, we've been going back and forth on this and here's where we're currently at:

1) We really hate to give up an invert. After all, this is a regional event and inverts are a big part of the reason why all of you are as good as you are.

2) We can deviate from the standard CCR points for this event to minimize the sandbaging, but we cant eliminate it and keep the guys in mid pack down in the hunt. So far the points structure that appears to work best is 100,90,95,85,80,75,etc. dropping 5 points per position. If anyone with math skills want to take a shot at something better, please let me know! For the purposes of season points, each of the 4 races collect standard class points.

3) If I catch wind of someone intentionally sandbagging they will be required to run around the main straight wearing only their helmet and underwear screaming "help me Oprah", otherwise they'll be DQ'd from the Shootout.

Will that work?

[mitchntx]

3) If I catch wind of someone intentionally sandbagging they will be required to run around the main straight wearing only their helmet and underwear screaming "help me Oprah", otherwise they'll be DQ'd from the Shootout.

Will that work?

It's "Help me Tom Cruise!" :roll:

[michaelmosty]

So far the points structure that appears to work best is 100,90,95,85,80,75,etc. dropping 5 points per position.
Will that work?
Now you are going to have the 2nd place guy slam on the brakes at the finish to get 3rd. :roll:

[Al Fernandez]

:lol: Like I said, anyone with better math skills want to take a shot?

[Fbody383]

:lol: Like I said, anyone with better math skills want to take a shot?

I was thinking about this a little since I too like the inverts.

Since the fast guys always find a way to get to the front, and I understand that the goal is to find an overall winner and not just a one race winner, consider the following.

Everyone is at risk for a mechanical or incidental cotact that could drop them several places or all the way to last. The invert format then allows them to start up front. Questions have been rasied about the potential of someone sandbagging from a qualified grid and then being able to start up front and run away in an inverted grid race.

Use the same finishing place point schedule for all the races, BUT for the inverts award 1 additional point for each place gained from grid to finish.

Depending on the place to place point spread, this could award more points to a lower place finisher in a large field but it does reward someone for advancing during the race and provides for more total points by finishing well in Race 1 and advancing as much as possible in Races 2 and 3.

[Alien]

Quick question, will the points that are used in determining the grid for R4 be separate from the normal season points, as in, the point structure for season points will remain unchanged?

[GlennCMC70]

Quick question, will the points that are used in determining the grid for R4 be separate from the normal season points, as in, the point structure for season points will remain unchanged?

You are correct.

[GlennCMC70]

:lol: Like I said, anyone with better math skills want to take a shot?

I was thinking about this a little since I too like the inverts.

Since the fast guys always find a way to get to the front, and I understand that the goal is to find an overall winner and not just a one race winner, consider the following.

Everyone is at risk for a mechanical or incidental cotact that could drop them several places or all the way to last. The invert format then allows them to start up front. Questions have been rasied about the potential of someone sandbagging from a qualified grid and then being able to start up front and run away in an inverted grid race.

Use the same finishing place point schedule for all the races, BUT for the inverts award 1 additional point for each place gained from grid to finish.

Depending on the place to place point spread, this could award more points to a lower place finisher in a large field but it does reward someone for advancing during the race and provides for more total points by finishing well in Race 1 and advancing as much as possible in Races 2 and 3.

Dont like it, good idea, but I dont like it.
Reason #1 - Those who normally strat up front in an invert could win and still get awarded fewer points than someone who didnt. Those who finished well in R1 stand to gain a considerable amount of points as they work their way to the front.
Nice thinking out of the box though.

[ShadowBolt]

:lol: Like I said, anyone with better math skills want to take a shot?

I was thinking about this a little since I too like the inverts.

Since the fast guys always find a way to get to the front, and I understand that the goal is to find an overall winner and not just a one race winner, consider the following.

Everyone is at risk for a mechanical or incidental cotact that could drop them several places or all the way to last. The invert format then allows them to start up front. Questions have been rasied about the potential of someone sandbagging from a qualified grid and then being able to start up front and run away in an inverted grid race.

Use the same finishing place point schedule for all the races, BUT for the inverts award 1 additional point for each place gained from grid to finish.

Depending on the place to place point spread, this could award more points to a lower place finisher in a large field but it does reward someone for advancing during the race and provides for more total points by finishing well in Race 1 and advancing as much as possible in Races 2 and 3.

Dont like it, good idea, but I dont like it.
Reason #1 - Those who normally strat up front in an invert could win and still get awarded fewer points than someone who didnt. Those who finished well in R1 stand to gain a considerable amount of points as they work their way to the front.
Nice thinking out of the box though.

I agree with Glenn on this one.


JJ

[Rob Liebbe]

We could have a tournament, paintball guns at 20 paces, to set the starting order.

[Al Fernandez]

We could have a tournament, paintball guns at 20 paces,


Hell, we should do that anyway!

[Alien]

We could have a tournament, paintball guns at 20 paces, to set the starting order.
Screw that. Paintball during race 3. He with the least amount of 'hits' gets pole and so on and so forth down the line.

[Fbody383]

Depending on the place to place point spread, this could award more points to a lower place finisher in a large field but it does reward someone for advancing during the race and provides for more total points by finishing well in Race 1 and advancing as much as possible in Races 2 and 3.

...good idea...

Reason #1 - Those who normally strat up front in an invert could win and still get awarded fewer points than someone who didnt. Those who finished well in R1 stand to gain a considerable amount of points as they work their way to the front.
Nice thinking out of the box though.

"Of course it's a good idea!"

The sturctural issue seems to be the narrow points gap place to place. If the gap was 20 points, then moving back to front in a 10 car field is only 1/2 a place which shouldn't be an issue.

I think we should all just man up, have a cold beer toast that there will be no sandbagging, grid Race 1 by qual, grid 2 inverted from 1 finish, grid 3 inverted from 2 finish, grid 4 by total points and just get on with it.

[Fbody383]

Is there a final decision on grids for the weekend?

Race 1 - Grid by qualifying times
Race 2 - ???
Race 3 - ????
Race 4 - Grid by points earned in Races 1 through 3

I need to know how much time to allot to installing the PTZ paintball marker mount.

[GlennCMC70]

It will be the points system Al posted a few days ago. 5 point drop per place.

[David Love AI27]

Is there a final decision on grids for the weekend?


Don't worry about the starting order, better worry about finding another step on the podium, top 3 are wrapped up....

[David Love AI27]

Race 4 - Grid by season points earned

U said it...

[Fbody383]

It will be the points system Al posted a few days ago. 5 point drop per place.I'm cool with that.

I was more curious if we were keeping the inverts since apparently I'll be on the pole for 'em.

[GlennCMC70]

R2 will be an invert.

[Rob Liebbe]

Is there a final decision on grids for the weekend?


Don't worry about the starting order, better worry about finding another step on the podium, top 3 are wrapped up....

I appreciate your confindence in my podium finish there Dave :wink: , but anything could happen.

[David Love AI27]

Is there a final decision on grids for the weekend?


Don't worry about the starting order, better worry about finding another step on the podium, top 3 are wrapped up....

I appreciate your confindence in my podium finish there Dave :wink: , but anything could happen.

If you stand on the podium, you gotta go here:

https://www.nasaproracing.com/event/1110

[Rob Liebbe]

Guess I should put that on my calendar.

[David Love AI27]

Guess I should put that on my calendar.

YEP!!!

[Alien]

10:05 AM 10:35 AM 0:30 Group D AI/CMC Summer Shootout RACE 3 - Rolling Start: Based on Best Avg Finishing order Races 1& 2

1:05 PM 1:45 PM 0:40 Group D AI/CMC Summer Shootout RACE 4 - Standing Start: Based on Best Avg Finishing order Races 1-3


Do we have something in place for a tie? (for example to set race 3, if someone had a 1st and 3rd and someone else had two 2nds) Fastest lap time in either race? Fastest avg lap time of both races? Better qual time? Flip a coin?

I don't care, just think something should be in place now so it won't seem like anyone is playing favorites should the situation arise.

[David Love AI27]

10:05 AM 10:35 AM 0:30 Group D AI/CMC Summer Shootout RACE 3 - Rolling Start: Based on Best Avg Finishing order Races 1& 2

1:05 PM 1:45 PM 0:40 Group D AI/CMC Summer Shootout RACE 4 - Standing Start: Based on Best Avg Finishing order Races 1-3


Do we have something in place for a tie? (for example to set race 3, if someone had a 1st and 3rd and someone else had two 2nds) Fastest lap time in either race? Fastest avg lap time of both races? Better qual time? Flip a coin?

I don't care, just think something should be in place now so it won't seem like anyone is playing favorites should the situation arise.

season points... :twisted:

[Al Fernandez]

We'll be accepting bribes up until 10 minutes before race 4 :wink:

[Rob Liebbe]

We'll be accepting bribes up until 10 minutes before race 4 :wink:

Make it sealed bid.

[GlennCMC70]

The schedule is not correct. It will be points based.
Ties broken by fastest single Race lap up to that point.

[GlennCMC70]

So is everyone good w/ this solution?
R1 - grid set by qual
R2 - grid set by invert of R1 finish
R3 - grid set by pionts earned from R1 and R2.
R4 - grid set by points earned from R1, R2, R3.

Do we want to use the CCR points system or use average finishing position w/ fastest lap in R1/2 as the tie breaker?

This is the format we are all expecting, right?

[RichardP]

So is everyone good w/ this solution?
R1 - grid set by qual
R2 - grid set by invert of R1 finish
R3 - grid set by pionts earned from R1 and R2.
R4 - grid set by points earned from R1, R2, R3.

Do we want to use the CCR points system or use average finishing position w/ fastest lap in R1/2 as the tie breaker?

This is the format we are all expecting, right?


If there is time for a practice session on Sunday morning, why isn't it qualifying for R3???


Richard P.

[GlennCMC70]

So is everyone good w/ this solution?
R1 - grid set by qual
R2 - grid set by invert of R1 finish
R3 - grid set by pionts earned from R1 and R2.
R4 - grid set by points earned from R1, R2, R3.

Do we want to use the CCR points system or use average finishing position w/ fastest lap in R1/2 as the tie breaker?

This is the format we are all expecting, right?


If there is time for a practice session on Sunday morning, why isn't it qualifying for R3???


Richard P.

That was talked about yesterday. Final call will be made tomorrow at the track.

[GlennCMC70]

Here is the format we used.

R1 grid was based of Q1. 30 minute / standing start.
R2 grid was an invert of R1 finish. 30 minute / rolling start
R3 grid was an invert of R2 finish. 30 minute / rolling start
R4 grid was based on the points earned from R1,2 and 3. 40 minute / standing start.

[David Love AI27]

Here is the format we used.

R1 grid was based of Q1. 30 minute / standing start.
R2 grid was an invert of R1 finish. 30 minute / rolling start
R3 grid was an invert of R2 finish. 30 minute / rolling start
R4 grid was based on the points earned from R1,2 and 3. 40 minute / standing start.

AND??? what was the tie breaker???

[GlennCMC70]

Tie breaker was most wins of R1,2 and 3. Then fastest lap of R1,2 or 3. Some tied for wins and we had to use lap times. Me and Chris McComb was one such example.

[David Love AI27]

Tie breaker was most wins of R1,2 and 3. Then fastest lap of R1,2 or 3. Some tied for wins and we had to use lap times. Me and Chris McComb was one such example.

I like the format...

Great job by the directors, thanks for all the hard work....