Rule of the Day - "racing room"

[BlueFirePony]

25.4 Rules For Overtaking
...
25.4.2 Punting
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Once the trailing car has its front wheel next to the driver of the other vehicle, it is considered that the trailing car has a right to be there. And, that the leading driver must leave the trailing driver enough “racing room.” In most cases, “racing room” is defined as “at least three quarters of one car width.”

I talked to a few of you about this part of the passing rule section at TWS and actually over the last year have gotten several different interpretations. Sooo..

My expectation has always been that racing room in club racing was determined as the area between my car and your car, NOT the amount of room I leave you "on track".
If I am the lead car, I am obligated to give you enough room to place 4 wheels on track PLUS additional room between us so that we can both negotiate the turn without having to lean on each other. As specified that is typically "at least three quarters of one car width" BETWEEN us in addition to whatever room you need to keep four wheels on.
Yes? No?
[/b]

[Fbody383]

If I am the lead car, I am obligated to give you enough room to place 4 wheels on track PLUS additional room between us so that we can both negotiate the turn without having to lean on each other.Yes? No?
I'll take "no" and "why do I feel compelled to answer this."

Total required space, including space between the cars, is 3/4ths of a car when there is no fixed barrier. I still think there is some grey area when two cars are door to door with no clear position and that the passing car has to safely complete the pass.

It IS wheel to wheel racing and not time trial. I have found all of this group to attempt to give "as much room as possible." Usually. I have also had the nose chopped pretty good on a couple of occassions.

It is advantageous to be able to lean on another driver's comfort zone; if I know that driving very close to someone will aid me in cleanly gaining track position, expect it to happen.

Now, will some folks disagree on what is too aggressive in the quest for plastic medals? Certainly; we've seen some of that this week. Does that necessarily make anyone wrong? I don't think so.

My limited experience to date is that someone in a session has more skill, more car and more determination to get to the front than I do. Doesn't mean I have to roll over and give it to them.

Did this come from anything specific at TWS, pre-Hallett jitters, growth as a driver? Just curious.

[marshall_mosty]

My understanding is 3/4" of a car width of car is given to the passing car. ie if the passing driving tries to take the unprotected inside line going into a braking zone, the lead car only HAS to give 3/4 of the cars width of of track to the overtaking car. This would put the overtaking car's inside tires in the dirt.

However, my experience with this group is we give a generous 1-1.5 car widths for passing.

Regarding distance for side-to-side and front-to-back, there is no "buffer" as long as there is no contact.

[mitchntx]

My understanding is 3/4" of a car width of car is given to the passing car. ie if the passing driving tries to take the unprotected inside line going into a braking zone, the lead car only HAS to give 3/4 of the cars width of of track to the overtaking car. This would put the overtaking car's inside tires in the dirt.


This will depend entirely on who you are.

You have either committed a low percentage move, endangering other drivers or you have aggressively taken position away.

I've witnessed the same move by various drivers and seen it labeled both ways.

[GlennCMC70]

Interesting POV Brian.
Most of us here dont likethe 3/4 car rule. I would love to see the CCR change that to a full car.

[Alien]

Regarding distance for side-to-side and front-to-back, there is no "buffer" as long as there is no contact.

This is the way I've always read that rule. The room between your car the car next to you is determined by how pretty a paint job he has or how expensive their car is. ie, for when Jay Carley passes me, I'm giving 2+ car widths :)

I'm pretty sure the intent of the 3/4 rule is how much track you (leading car) are supposed to leave the other guy. Agreed that for this level of racing it might be best to word it as min 1 car width.

[mitchntx]

FWIW and not trying to muck this thread up ...

I realize whole-heartedly that this isn't HPDE. But I also realize that we're not racing for a million dollars.

Any one see Denny Hamlin and Kurt Bush last night?

Any one notice how pissed off Bush was?

Any one see any similarities to this race group?

Any one see my point?

[BlueFirePony]

Yep - just trying to grow as a driver.
My intent is pretty straightforward - I want to understand how everyone interprets the rule, and then factor that into how I will race. I know there are some situational supplements in the CCR but similar to hockey I think the rules can always be clarified amongs competitors just a bit better for my liking. It keeps any possible "aftermath" a lot more objective.

So let me lick off the start of an "evolution of a pass" here:

I am behind you coming up to a right hand turn - maybe I am pulling on you a bit. You have a defensive line but there is a good car and a half on your inside coming to the turn - I position myself on that line - you hold your line.
I wait for your lights and then brake inside knowing that I can out brake you - I get my front wheel to your door before turn in.

According the the rule then you can take away all the track at turn in leaving me to finish the evolution 2 wheels off right?
However, as illustrated on page 119 of the CCR, you cannot assume my turn in point so you would be at fault for any contact right?

[mitchntx]

If any one has an opinion, please post it up.

Stop all the behind the scenes phone calls, PMs and e-mail about series concerns.

Telling me or him or her about your issue does NOTHING to fix it.

The only way a concern can be addressed is by discussing it.

So ... if you are OK with Brian's dissection, then say so. If not, say so and why.

[BlueFirePony]

If any one has an opinion, please post it up.

Stop all the behind the scenes phone calls, PMs and e-mail about series concerns.

Telling me or him or her about your issue does NOTHING to fix it.

The only way a concern can be addressed is by discussing it.

So ... if you are OK with Brian's dissection, then say so. If not, say so and why.
Yow...guys...sincere attempt to learn here! Is this really creating a stir!? If so, I'll bow out now and just see all y'all at Hallett for some fun and competitive racing...trust me..I'll give you plenty of room regardless.

[mitchntx]

If any one has an opinion, please post it up.

Stop all the behind the scenes phone calls, PMs and e-mail about series concerns.

Telling me or him or her about your issue does NOTHING to fix it.

The only way a concern can be addressed is by discussing it.

So ... if you are OK with Brian's dissection, then say so. If not, say so and why.
Yow...guys...sincere attempt to learn here! Is this really creating a stir!? If so, I'll bow out now and just see all y'all at Hallett for some fun and competitive racing...trust me..I'll give you plenty of room regardless.

No, its not causing a stir.

Folks like you need to speak up. Kudos.

[Rob Liebbe]

I personally don't like the 3/4 rule. I prefer to make it 1 car width so that there is less possibility of a car being forced off into the grass and more risk of control loss. I personally leave enough room for the passing car because there are a couple of guys that race with us who will stuff their car into that 3/4 space way too hot with little real chance of making a safe turn if the passed car doesn't give them room. Are they taking advantage of the 3/4 car rule, yes. Are they counting on others to make room, I believe so. Are they involved in a lot of car contact, you betcha. Is it really necessary, nope.

[BlueFirePony]

No, its not causing a stir.

Ok..if you say so....I received no calls, emails or PMs so I kinda feel like I am in the eye of a hurricane!

I should probably wait to see if the pond is rippling, but...continuing with deer-like innocence on the first day of the season:

I believe I've negotiated passing situations pretty well. I personally think my passing under braking skills are far above par but I am open to peer critique.
I really don't like the CCR situational clarifiaction on pg 119 - unless I just don't understand it. I think I do understand it and it seems to put an overt responsibility on Driver A to compenstate for all sorts of screwups on the part of Driver B. I agree Driver A should be situationally aware and be prepared to execute an earlier/later turn-in than normal based on Driver B's line, but placing fault on Driver A just seems wrong.
Case(s) in point - I had a couple of issues with brake fade at ECR my first race weekend and I created this very situation with both Jerry AND Jay in different races. I drafted them down the backstraight, and pulled out with a pretty strong pull on them.
I waited just a hair too late to brake and wound up missing turn in completely driving right in front of them. They were both aware and avoided me but geez if they had t-boned me they would be at fault?
The same weekend I completed that same pass 4 or 5 other times successfully and had some awesome passes into Turn 1 - but all of those were similar - inside pass that if I screw up the other guy gets blamed?

Why don't I just plan to diamond every turn, cut in front of you and force you to check up and then see who can get the power to the wheels faster? Am I just now learning a valid passing technique?

[GlennCMC70]

This is a dynamic issue to say the least.
If you have "rights to position" and your right side tires are on the right edge of the track for a right turn, you are expected to maintain that position on the track surface all the way thru the turn- imagine lanes 1 car wide drawn along the track surface. The driver you are passing who is on your left 1 car width off the right side of the track can hold you in that position all the way thru the turn. If you dont maintain the position due to loss of grip, lack of attention - whatever - your at fault for any contact. The driver to your left must wait for your turn-in, but you cant wait to the point that now your car is further from the right side of the track than it was when you made claim to "rights of position".
You have the responsibility to "make a safe pass" not the other way around. The 3/4 car width rule comes in here. If your car was 1/4 width off the surface when contact was made, it shows you made an attempt to avoid contact by putting "two in the dirt". If you put two in the dirt to get "rights to position" you will likely be at fault for contact.
Due to the nature of the complexity, its really best to have this conversation in person. Todd does an awsome "Evolution of a Pass" and I've already talked w/ a couple folks about asking Todd to "perform" it for Hallett before our first race.

[mitchntx]

Sorry my post was unclear.

What you did was 100% spot on. If you have a concern, post it. Too many are making calls, e-mails or PMs asking for clarification in private.

If you have a concern, voice it publicly. If you have it, chances are others do too.

As Rob said, too many folks have the "I have the line so "F" him" attitude. "He'll lift or else" has no place here, IMHO.

[marshall_mosty]

So let me lick off the start of an "evolution of a pass" here:

I am behind you coming up to a right hand turn - maybe I am pulling on you a bit. You have a defensive line but there is a good car and a half on your inside coming to the turn - I position myself on that line - you hold your line.
I wait for your lights and then brake inside knowing that I can out brake you - I get my front wheel to your door before turn in.

According the the rule then you can take away all the track at turn in leaving me to finish the evolution 2 wheels off right?
However, as illustrated on page 119 of the CCR, you cannot assume my turn in point so you would be at fault for any contact right?
I was in this exact same situation at the March MSR-C back in 2007. I was the inside car and the situation didn't go to plan. The outside car, who will remain nameless (since he doesn't race with us anymore), came into my "line" and we hit side-to-side with my front tire between his front tire and door. I ended up with a broken tie rod and a ruined wheel/tire. He got the DQ (based on an IRB). I still didn't get the car together for the afternoon race. Bummed either way. It was my fault that I gave him too much credit. I would definately not worry if the person on my outside was MP, DD, RP, or MFW, but I gave this guy too much credit. My mistake. Be careful who you plan this type of maneuver on. 8)

[Alien]

However, as illustrated on page 119 of the CCR, you cannot assume my turn in point so you would be at fault for any contact right?

I look at that diagram and thinks it's a bit deceiving relative to the description. The diagram shows car B ahead of car A at the point of turn in (and contact). I would think that yes, car A should not have turned in and would be at blame. However, if car B's tire was still only to the door of car A at point of turn in as in the situation you give (more like Fig 2 or 6), I would think that the outcome would be what Glenn described earlier...

The driver to your left must wait for your turn-in, but you cant wait to the point that now your car is further from the right side of the track than it was when you made claim to "rights of position".

*edit* FWIW, one thing I've noticed is that some of the best passes from the fast guys videos are started coming out of a corner, not going in.

[BlueFirePony]

Good input everyone... I am getting closer to understanding the rationale but feel free to keep it flowing. Glenn your point about the dynamics is at the root of my thinking right now. I tend to 'visualize' a lot when I prepare to compete...the brain has an amazing ability to drive performance based on pattern recognition (I have been one of the few goalie coaches in the world to use pattern recog in training with excellent results)... and I am trying to make sure I understand what is/not acceptable.

[gt40]

I want to see of my take on this hypothetical situation is correct. I tend to internally boil things down to simple concepts and I want to see if what I go by is correct before its too late.

I think of it as the "right to manouver" If two cars are in a situation where neither one can manouver side-to-side freely without hitting the other, this comes into play.

If the trailing car's front wheel isn't overlapping the leading car's door, the front car has the "right to manouver" and the trailing car is responsible for avoiding contact. If the lead car comes over, the trailing car moves over also, or backs off to avoid contact. (I'll get to the 3/4 car-width bit in a second.)

If the trailing car has reached the leading car's door (i.e. the wheel overlaps the leading car's door,) then the trailing car has the right to manouver, and the leading car MUST give him room to do so. (I will say that if the trailing car wants to move towards the leading car, this is a really risky move and while he may technically own the line, a wise driver would try to avoid moving over on the leading car.)

Make sense?

On to the 3/4 car rule. I interpret this as meaning, if you own the right to manouver and are the lead car, you must still leave 3/4 of a car width to the trailing driver, even at the apex of the corner.

Right?

And finally, there's what's right and there's whats wise, and they're not necessarily the same thing.

[GlennCMC70]

Robert - you have it correct.

[gt40]

Robert - you have it correct. :D

[Alien]

If that's correct, doesn't that void your hold 'em to one lane thru the corner Glenn? (I'm genuinly asking) *edit* I see Fig 2 as the way Glenn describes it *edit*

The way I read Robert's situation is this.

If the trailing car has reached the leading car's door (i.e. the wheel overlaps the leading car's door,) then the trailing car has the right to manouver, and the leading car MUST give him room to do so.

I'm in the middle of the track 1 1/2 car width to either side, approaching a left hand corner. Glenn comes up on my left, wheel to my door, right to be there, share the track and all that. We stay that way around the corner. I stay in the middle, Glenn stays on the inside wheel to my door. At corner exit, I stay in the middle and don't track out, essentially killing Glenns exit speed as he has to stay on the left side of the track.

Now, according to Robert, I really should give Glenn the right to manouver? If Glenn wants to track out, I must move over to the right side of the track at corner exit?

[GlennCMC70]

I didnt read into Roberts use of the term "rights to manuver" as much as you have Gary. I did at first, but took a second look and assumed I was using the term differently than perhaps Robert was intending it. I decided to take the term as a "rights to be here" rather than litteral sence.

Gary, your example is correct, I would not be allowed to track out to the right on corner exit. I must be allowed the amount of track I laid rights to be having position. Everything under your car and to the right of your car is your to do w/ what you please. If you move right, I can move w/ you, but not force you to do so.

Like I said, this can get really confusing do to interpretational differences. Semantics plays too large of a role here and can lead to contact due to gross mis-understandings. This is really best to have these talks in person at the track w/ mock cars.

[Fbody383]

If the trailing car has reached the leading car's door (i.e. the wheel overlaps the leading car's door,) then the trailing car has the right to manouver, and the leading car MUST give him room to do so. (I will say that if the trailing car wants to move towards the leading car, this is a really risky move and while he may technically own the line, a wise driver would try to avoid moving over on the leading car.)

Make sense?


I think that's the crux of the issue ~ when has a pass been safely completed? I'm not convinced EITHER car has the right to cause the other to alter its course in this scenario, especially down a straight.

I've already been on both sides of this coin and my current thought is still that if you are passing me and I have 2 wheels at track edge, that's all I'm giving you. It IS up to me to control the car to stay at track edge until the pass is completed or aborted, but I don't subscribe to the "I'll drive off the track so YOU can complete a pass" theory. DQ, probation,suspension, whatever - if I'm at the edge of the racing surface already the Passer has the responsibility to get it done clean.

I also try to be very conscious of whether I'm passing a car on the indside or outside and whether there are other cars that could be involved and what my mistake could cause.


I personally don't like the 3/4 rule. I prefer to make it 1 car width so that there is less possibility of a car being forced off into the grass and more risk of control loss.I'm good with that, too. Want to adopt a 1 car width Texas AI/CMC rule revision?

[evarner]

Not that this discussion hasn't occurred many times before... remember Todd and Adam with the 1/18 scale race cars in the MSR-C upstairs lounge? lol

This video from way back in the day (sorry for the crappy quality) shows A to B rule many times over around TWS.

From the 3/4 rule going into T3 (TWS) to "who has the line" after a pass on the front straight (can't really see it, but I was all the way in front for a few nanoseconds). I probably held JB out longer than he wanted, but it was my line. Another pass on the orange car that could possibly be viewed as chopping his nose a bit.

Action packed - at no time did I think JB was going to hit me and I don't think he thought I was going to hit him - even though we were inches apart.

http://www.tek-racing.net/JB-wins.wmv

Discuss/Thoughts?

[jeremiahkellam]

If the trailing car has reached the leading car's door (i.e. the wheel overlaps the leading car's door,) then the trailing car has the right to manouver, and the leading car MUST give him room to do so.
Right?

I don't agree... the lead car has the right to place his/ her car anywhere on the track but must leave 3/4 width to the trailing car (if trailing cars front bumper is even or in front of front cars rear bumper) Once the trailing car's front wheel is even with front car's door, then the trailing car has right to their current line and any track opposite of the front car. Once the trailing car has pulled ahead of the front car to a point where the former trailing car's door is even with the former front car's front wheel, the former trailing car may move any where on track, but must leave 3/4 width to the other car.Only once the trailing car has completely passed what was the front car (rear bumper past former front car's front bumper) then they may move to any position on the track. (i should of done the car A, car B thing...sorry) And I guess to clarify, this is concerning a straightline senario. When entering a turn, if the trailing car has a bumper just inside the front car, but not their front tire to the door, it is the leading car's right to "close the door".

That's the way I understand it... and I would have no problem if the rule changed to "1 car width".


And finally, there's what's right and there's whats wise, and they're not necessarily the same thing.

Now I do agree with this. The way I look at it, in most cases, even if you are not at fault for contact, you put yourself in a position to be hit...

[mitchntx]

http://www.tek-racing.net/JB-wins.wmv

Discuss/Thoughts?

T3 ...

JB gave you 1/2 a car ... but ... there was a good faith effort to give you racing room. Till 6' curb feelers are part of the CCR, that's all any one could ask.

The question is, though. Had you not gotten on the brakes as hard as you did, your left front tire would have most likely been at JB's door ... would you have been at fault if contact had occurred? (over aggressive driving) or JB? (not giving enough room)

Good discussion. We need more of this open, honest discussion to get aligned on our collective interpretation.

Were you then

[Alien]

Once the trailing car has pulled ahead of the front car to a point where the former trailing car's door is even with the former front car's front wheel, the former trailing car may move any where on track, but must leave 3/4 width to the other car.
See Fig 8.

I don't think it's 3/4 rule here. The car being passed should not have to ever put 2 wheels into the dirt UNTIL the passing car is completely made the pass and the scenario is reset.

[GlennCMC70]

IS[/u] up to me [i]to control the car to stay at track edge until the pass is completed or aborted, but I don't subscribe to the "I'll drive off the track so YOU can complete a pass" theory. DQ, probation,suspension, whatever - if I'm at the edge of the racing surface already the Passer has the responsibility to get it done clean.



Your thoughts are spot on David.

[GlennCMC70]

Once the trailing car (car B) has pulled ahead of the front car (car A) to a point where the former trailing car's door (car B) is even with the former front car's (car A) front wheel, the former trailing car (car B) may move any where on track, but must leave 3/4 width to the other car (car A).
Red added by me.

Thats not correct. You are not the leading car until you complete the pass as in your rear bumper clears his front bumper. If you are car B and you are in the middle of the track w/ your right side, you may not move to the right if the car next to you (inches away) does not allow you to do so. You cannot push him to 3/4 of a car width to the right edge of the track. Your territory is from the middle to the left and his is to the middle to the right. If one of you moved left or right, the other can move also to claim the vacated territory. But you cannot force claim to territiory you do not control at that time.

I'll round up some cars and get them all marked up and we will spend some time on this at Hallett.

[jeremiahkellam]

You're right! After reading Gary's reply I realized I had that part wrong. Thanks for the clarification.

[Alien]

If there's anything I'm good at, it's being passed. :D

[Al Fernandez]

Good discussion on what is absolutely the most complex part of the ammateur racing rules. This is why we form Incident Review Boards for anything but the simplest of incidents and why every driver has a right to not one but two appeals.

We'll go over the evolution of a pass with Todd's toy cars at Hallett. We did it at nationals and it was very useful so that everyone knew how the IRBs would look at things.

[Fbody383]

Good video for content.


From the 3/4 rule going into T3 (TWS) to "who has the line" after a pass on the front straight (can't really see it, but I was all the way in front for a few nanoseconds). I probably held JB out longer than he wanted, but it was my line. Another pass on AN orange car that could possibly be viewed as chopping his nose a bit. But even if you had the lead for a nanosecond, didn't JB quickly re-establish position? To me it looks like you drove in deep and took a far-track right line simultaneously to JB drawing back up next to you.

THIS orange car might expect that since I just dove under the other guy, one that I know is fast, that his/her preferred line could put them very close to me at apex. That's what caused very minor contact at Hallett last year, i was driving the right hand edge of the track and a passing car just hit the nose with rear bumper cover. 3/4 rule says i have to brake/move/avoid the contact~if I had it to do again, a quick tap of the brakes would have caused a miss.


The question is, though. Had you not gotten on the brakes as hard as you did, your left front tire would have most likely been at JB's door ... would you have been at fault if contact had occurred? (over aggressive driving) or JB? (not giving enough room) That's my question as well. It happens pretty quickly, but I lean toward JB having re-established position and it "looks" like he left you racing room, especially considering where you placed your car. Maybe it felt/was closer than I saw in the video.


Action packed - at no time did I think JB was going to hit me and I don't think he thought I was going to hit him - even though we were inches apart. And I think to some degree that is earned as much as given. Even for guys with no brake lights. 8)


We'll go over the evolution of a pass with Todd's toy cars at Hallett. Thanks; so Todd's bringing the 2?

[Crumpacker]

Sorry to muck up with puddle when it's just starting to settle, but doesn't the 3/4 car width rule and CCR Fig 12 contradict each other?

My interpretation of the 3/4 rule and Glenn's last post say Car A can dictate the line as long as he leaves Car B at least 3/4 car width, BUT Fig 12 says "A" is at fault for contact even if "B" comes in too hot or chooses a late turn-in... that sounds alot like "B" is dictating the line even though he hasn't completed the pass.

Is it just me or is Fig 12 inviting dive bombs. :?

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af110/samcrumpacker/ccrfig12.jpg

[chris-CMC#35]

Another pass on the orange car that could possibly be viewed as chopping his nose a bit.

Wow - memory lane. That orange car was me. I think it was my second NASA weekend. Not to worry Eric - no nose-chopping: I was way slow, and basically staying out of folks' way. :)

-chris

[Alien]

My interpretation of the 3/4 rule and Glenn's last post say Car A can dictate the line as long as he leaves Car B at least 3/4 car width, BUT Fig 12 says "A" is at fault for contact even if "B" comes in too hot or chooses a late turn-in... that sounds alot like "B" is dictating the line even though he hasn't completed the pass.

Is it just me or is Fig 12 inviting dive bombs. :?

The difference that I see in that figure is car B is now ahead of car A. The upper hand has changed.

That's one thing I dislike about those diagrams, is too much changes from 2 to 3 etc. Much like tuning a car, only one change should occur to get the point across. I think this is key when Al/Todd/Glenn use the scale cars as examples. Start with the two cars going around the corner and no relative change in postion occurs, then build from there.

[mitchntx]

I think the "car talk" should occur during the party Saturday night.

[Alien]

Car talk... Dr. Frank stories... Car talk... Dr. Frank stories... Hmm... tough decision. 8)

[Crumpacker]

The difference that I see in that figure is car B is now ahead of car A. The upper hand has changed.

According to the rules, it's not about the "upper hand" but rather "Overtaking/Being Overtaken", and those roles don't change until a pass has been fully completed. See Glenn's post:

You are not the leading car until you complete the pass as in your rear bumper clears his front bumper... you cannot force claim to territiory you do not control at that time.

Change the diagram to both cars side by side entering the corner with "Car A" mid track and "Car B" contacting "Car A" due to too much speed --- I still read Fig 12 as blaming "Car A" and I feel this is incorrect.

Now switch roles, and the pass is being made on the outside by Car B, Car A slides into B due to too much speed. My discussion with other drivers and directors netted with fault on the overtaken car "A" for not slowing enough to use the room left by overtaking car "B" (which was more than a car width, but less than he could have given). It was agreed both times that the low percentage pass by Car B was ill advised, but fault still lay with Car A. I've been in this situation twice now (once as A, and once as B) so I'm very curious to your interpretations.

Maybe I should just wait 'till Todd pulls out the toy chest... :wink:


Car talk... Dr. Frank stories... Car talk... Dr. Frank stories... Hmm... tough decision. 8)

Dr. Frank stories for sure! "rules" car talk is for the interwebs.

[GlennCMC70]

As I said guys, this is a very complex and dynamic issue.

One thing to point out also, if you have your tires locked when contact is made, it will not go well for you. Locked tires and brakes are not a sign of being in control of the car. Once you are not in control, fault will easily and quickly fall your way even if the tire marks say you had position.

Last and most importantly, my opinion is not the opinion on what the intent of the CCR is in these matters. I'm just as capable of understanding incorrectly as you guys are.
I'm glad this has not gotten heated in any ways and encourage this to continue. Believe it or not, this topic comes up very couple of years just like this. We get a crop of new guys here w/ us who need to have this open dialog to understand if we all are on the same page. It’s a good thing.

Also, slightly off topic, There has been some complaints of blocking as of late. I've seen it and I've been told about it. I'll not name names or address it w/ them at this point, but I will take time to illustrate this as well at Hallett. The short of it is, you get one move to block an attempted pass from apex of one corner to the next, that’s it. Example - TWS and we both track out of T2 w/ me in front. I'm driving the normal line and slowly drift to the left setting up for T3. This is not a move. But if you move right as if your planning a move to pass on the inside of T3, I can move to block you and that is my 1 move. If you move back left to set-up for the preferred line and fast way thru the corner I cannot move back left w/ you. I must stay to the right all the way to apex. At that point, if you have not established "rights to position" I can track out like normal to the far left on track out of T3. Even if you have a run and its clear your going to eventually establish rights to position, I can track out. The best evidence of blocking is video. W/out that, its really had to do anything about it.

[Al Fernandez]

Dr. Frank stories for sure!! Well, at least once we've all had enough to drink.

I meant to type more earlier but work got in the way :x

All of these things have to be taken in context, which is why some incidents take so long to resolve, but...

A pass is complete once the overtaking car's rear bumper is clear of the overtaken car's front bumper. That said, the overtaking car has a right to be there when their tire is up to the driver of the overtaken car. At that point both cars have to share the road.

I know the 3/4 rule has been weighing on some of you lately, but remember, the purpose of that rule is not to enable the guy being passed to force others off. It is intended to remind us that we need to have room to spare to make the pass before attempting because if things go pear shaped we might have no choice but to put two wheels off. If you're not in control enough to be able to do so...you were probably carrying too much speed.

There are plenty of situations (as shown for example in figure 9) where 3/4 is not enough. There are many factors to consider, corner layout, where the contact happened, how the contact happened...its fair to say usually the overtaking driver is at fault in side to side contact, but that isnt exclusively the case.

Man this is much easier in person! :lol:

[Crumpacker]

Man this is much easier in person! :lol:

I look forward to the huddle of grown men, booze in hand, playing with toy cars.

I'll remind Darcie to bring the camera.

[ShadowBolt]

If you're not in control enough to be able to do so...you were probably carrying too much speed.



BS! How many times are you passing another car but going slow enough to turn two wheels off track in the middle of a turn? The rule would be way better if you had to give one car then if the passing driver moves over into the car being passed it's his (the passing driver's) fault.


JJ

[Al Fernandez]

:lol: Jerry
It depends on at what point in time you have to make that decision. :wink:

[ShadowBolt]

:lol: Jerry
It depends on at what point in time you have to make that decision. :wink:


I'm just saying if you are passing on the inside on a right hand turn and you are at the edge of traction (like most of us are most of the time) and you see the car you are passing coming down (because the line is his) there is no way you are going to be able to pull the car over the curb and not spin. Or at least it's doubtful. I would think most are at the very edge of traction when passing (or trying to pass) another CMC car of close to the same talent.
Sure if the passing car is way faster than the other car the pass can be made way under the edge.

JJ

[David Love AI27]

if you have your tires locked when contact is made, it will not go well for you. Locked tires and brakes are not a sign of being in control of the car.


Things that make you go "HMMMMM"..

:lol: :lol: :lol: ROFLMAO :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Al Fernandez]

You're right Jerry, which is why figure 9 in the CCR shows exactly that as an example of where 3/4 is not enough.

Like I said, that rule is there to protect the overtaken driver because, particularly when cameras where not available, it can be very difficult to prove whether it was that the overtaking car went up or the overtaken car went down.

If you dig through scenarios I think you'll come to the conclusion that regardless of whether you make it 3/4 or 1, the overtaking driver is still at risk of having the other guy cut down on him. Ultimately the only protection against this is good sportsmanship, which is exactly what the repeat offender of this will be sanctioned with.

[Fbody383]

Ultimately the only protection against this is good sportsmanship, which is exactly what the repeat offender of this will be sanctioned with.I hereby sanction everybody with good sportsmanship.

Now, say "sanction" five time fast.

[BlueFirePony]

I appreciate the show 'n' tell/in person as a re-enforcement ...I think that will help more folks than just myself .
I do think a supplemental to the CCR should be developed by NASA as well...collecting and narrating vid footage might cost but in my mind it would be the right way to go...don't need to cover every permutation but start with some and evolve it...maybe we can video the show 'n' tell as a start.

[GlennCMC70]

I've already talked w/ Al about video'ing the Hallett session and dumping it on you tube.

[Todd Covini]

We're going to have to rehearse if it's going to be taped for youtube.com productions! LOL

Another perspective to keep in mind in addition to the Appendix of the CCR is the concept of "avoidable contact". If either car A or car B causes contact due to "forcing the issue", it doesn't bode well.

Directly from the CCR Appendix...

Notes:
These two rules (ed.- rough driving & punting) are the basis by which the IRB or Race Director will determine fault
when two (2) or more cars are involved in an on-track incident. The rules described in
CCR section #25.4 are intended to help drivers determine when they should attempt a
pass, and who may be at fault should there be an incident.

The main purpose of the “¾ car width” rule is not to allow one driver to “squeeze” the other driver. The main purpose
and intent is to alert the mind of the driver that is contemplating a pass that he/she may
be “forced” to go two (2) wheels off-course to avoid a collision. Basically, this means
that the overtaking driver must be certain that he/she can attempt the pass with room to
spare, and must be prepared to take evasive action if necessary.

Lastly, remember that, even though you have the “right of way” it may not be smart to
insist upon it. You may be involved in a collision that was not your fault, but you may
end up crashing your car, sustain damage, get hurt, or at the very least be punted out of
the race. The other driver may get penalties, but that will not help you fix your car, get
your position back, or get you out of the hospital any faster.

-=- Todd

[mitchntx]

Directly from the CCR Appendix...


Lastly, remember that, even though you have the “right of way” it may not be smart to
insist upon it. You may be involved in a collision that was not your fault, but you may
end up crashing your car, sustain damage, get hurt, or at the very least be punted out of
the race. The other driver may get penalties, but that will not help you fix your car, get
your position back, or get you out of the hospital any faster.

-=- Todd

Sadly, there are those who don't care if their car gets beat up.

At some point in time, whether contact is ever your fault or not, the appearance of impropriety is all that your peer group sees. You are the only one who recalls the IRB's decision ... the rest of us see a loose cannon.

[marshall_mosty]

if you have your tires locked when contact is made, it will not go well for you. Locked tires and brakes are not a sign of being in control of the car.


Things that make you go "HMMMMM"..

:lol: :lol: :lol: ROFLMAO :lol: :lol: :lol:
Thank god for ABS... it provides the illusion of conrol. :D

[David Love AI27]

if you have your tires locked when contact is made, it will not go well for you. Locked tires and brakes are not a sign of being in control of the car.


Things that make you go "HMMMMM"..

:lol: :lol: :lol: ROFLMAO :lol: :lol: :lol:
Thank god for ABS... it provides the illusion of conrol. :D

What is this "ABS" that you speak of?????

[Rob Liebbe]

if you have your tires locked when contact is made, it will not go well for you. Locked tires and brakes are not a sign of being in control of the car.


Things that make you go "HMMMMM"..

:lol: :lol: :lol: ROFLMAO :lol: :lol: :lol:
Thank god for ABS... it provides the illusion of conrol. :D

What is this "ABS" that you speak of?????

It is a type of plastic. What 4th gen Camaros are made of I think.

[AI#97]

Love the entertainment guys....

5 years now this "rule" has been misinterpreted...that I know of. sounds like the rule needs to be re-written so it is clearly understood by all these competition license holders who don't currently clearly understand the rule... sounds like the "evolution of a pass" discussion needs to occur in HPDE 3/4 and before someone gets that cute little piece of provisional paper.

I know Scott Kerner needed it and pretty ironic he hit the comp licensing director last year.

further chuckles come from Love's post about GL....

Back to my pina colada!

[David Love AI27]

further chuckles come from Love's post about GL....

Back to my pina colada!

Glad someone liked it :roll:

Now where is my Pina Colada??? Bartender.. "set me up"

[Jeremy Gunter]

if you have your tires locked when contact is made, it will not go well for you. Locked tires and brakes are not a sign of being in control of the car.


Things that make you go "HMMMMM"..

:lol: :lol: :lol: ROFLMAO :lol: :lol: :lol:
Thank god for ABS... it provides the illusion of conrol. :D

What is this "ABS" that you speak of?????

It is a type of plastic. What 4th gen Camaros are made of I think.

:lol:

[marshall_mosty]

if you have your tires locked when contact is made, it will not go well for you. Locked tires and brakes are not a sign of being in control of the car.


Things that make you go "HMMMMM"..

:lol: :lol: :lol: ROFLMAO :lol: :lol: :lol:
Thank god for ABS... it provides the illusion of conrol. :D

What is this "ABS" that you speak of?????

It is a type of plastic. What 4th gen Camaros are made of I think.

:lol:Depending on the application, I would suggest Polycarbonate over ABS. For example, when flexural modulus is not required, but high ultimate strenth is more important, PC wins. However, if you a favorable elastic deformation curve, I would go with ABS. 6 of one, half a dozen of another. But, since I'm in AI, I prefer carbon fiber.

[Jeremy Gunter]

if you have your tires locked when contact is made, it will not go well for you. Locked tires and brakes are not a sign of being in control of the car.


Things that make you go "HMMMMM"..

:lol: :lol: :lol: ROFLMAO :lol: :lol: :lol:
Thank god for ABS... it provides the illusion of conrol. :D

What is this "ABS" that you speak of?????

It is a type of plastic. What 4th gen Camaros are made of I think.

:lol:Depending on the application, I would suggest Polycarbonate over ABS. For example, when flexural modulus is not required, but high ultimate strenth is more important, PC wins. However, if you a favorable elastic deformation curve, I would go with ABS. 6 of one, half a dozen of another. But, since I'm in AI, I prefer carbon fiber.

wasn't that the old 4th gen commercial where the shopping buggy hits the door? that's abs plastic?
http://www.goenglish.com/GoEnglish_com_BeatADeadHorse.gif

[GlennCMC70]

Saturn.

4th gen doors are fiberglass.

[michaelmosty]

Saturn.

4th gen doors are fiberglass.
Dave Francis knows that first hand. :P

[Fbody383]

Saturn.

4th gen doors are fiberglass.
Dave Francis knows that first hand. :P

Only cause the #32 didn't give me racing room. :oops:

Barkeep ~ three orange whips!