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Garbage
06-21-2006, 08:31 AM
Why is NASA still making AIX start behind AI on inverted starts? AIX is not racing AI and this weekend was a perfect example of the problems associated with the current inverted start concept.

1. Do not come back and tell me AIX is slower than AI. I walked away from the field this weekend.

2. Trying to work my way through the field only messes up battles between slower AI drivers.

3. Contact occured this weekend between an unskilled AI driver and a very safe AIX driver.

The current system must change. Don't tell me the current concept is good for the series. The two AIX cars that are currently in Texas are rapidly changing and getting better. We should not have to start behind AI on inverted starts. Ever! But maybe it is best for the series to lose two more cars by the end of the season, because directors can't see what is really best for the series. Or maybe you just want to see a good wreck and then you will make a knee jerk reaction change. At that point is it too late. Either a car is totalled or a driver is hurt.

FYI: You (directors) have alienated several of the better drivers in the region and they are gone after the end of this season. I suppose that is good for the series.

mitchntx
06-21-2006, 08:40 AM
I was kind of suprised to see the ASC car gridding at the back.

David ... who is alienated and gone after this season?

Mitch "in my own little world" Warren

Mike Bell
06-21-2006, 08:42 AM
Congrats on your 1:24.xxx lap, that's smokin' fast at Hallett. I didn't realize NASATX was inverting AIX behind AI and am sorry to hear that Skip was involved in some contact - I agree Skip is a good driver and he has always given me plenty of racing room whenever I've been near him on the track.

Maybe it was the combination of a tight track plus a mixed field that lead to some frustration/issues? Wasn't just AIX/AI/CMC in that run group, saw Hondas, a Corvette, and some wild looking red firebird (tube frame?) cars in the video JB posted up.

cjlmlml
06-21-2006, 09:14 AM
I agree that AIX should start in front of AI. Good point.

Who is alienated? Please clarify.


Nasa does have some major problems as far as I am concerned. Especially after last weekend.

No scales at Hallett. That is plain lazy and defeats the whole foundation that AI & CMC are built on.

Post race impounds were a joke really,

It was as if they were saying, Well we dont have scales, so we are going to make it up by looking for other stuff.


Come on Nasa, we pay good money for this, Please do your job.

Enforce the rules.

On the other hand I understand that this is not a perfect world, maybe our expectations should be set lower.



On the other, other hand Hallet was a blast as far as I am concerned .

Mike Bell
06-21-2006, 09:15 AM
Did anyone get selected for the random dyno cert?

mitchntx
06-21-2006, 09:21 AM
The mysterious one armed man ... Burch.

Also, Adam told me that his hood was sealed. Not sure I know what happened there. I was hoping to see some discussion on it so that if/when it happens to me, I'll better understand the reasoning behind it.

Daron was pitted right next to me and I was oblivious to all the goings on. Tech spent a lot of time roaming the pits both days.

I thought the "everyone to impound, we'll wave you through if we don't need you" idea was over the top. After R3, my car was burning down just waiting to have them wave me on. Post R4 was better, though.

Mike Bell
06-21-2006, 09:39 AM
Maybe AG trying to keep Daron out of the engine bay lol.

Garbage
06-21-2006, 09:52 AM
Oh, I forgot to say that Hallett was a blast. And I enjoyed the weekend.

Everyone in the Texas Region races pretty clean.

DA
#20AIX

oz98cobra
06-21-2006, 10:25 AM
You have no idea how much of a joke Tech was on the weekend - I'm sure you'll hear more about the NASA tech BS that I endured on the weekend in due time - right now I'd rather not talk about it, especially in an open forum.

But I will give this advice to all in our group - if you ever are questioned by NASA tech or other officials about something to do with your vehicles rules compliance, stop them right then and there and summon the Series Director on duty for the weekend before any further discussion takes place, or before you let them look at your car.

Otherwise, Hallett was a blast as always.

AI#97
06-21-2006, 10:51 AM
The mysterious one armed man ... Burch.



What's the point if there are no scales....save the AI/CMC money for beer please..... :roll:

<---wasn't there but will stir the pot a little! :D

mitchntx
06-21-2006, 10:59 AM
Daron, I respect your wanting the privacy. Adam seemed a little ticked off as well.

I hope that those of us out of the loop can get in the loop so that there are no future surprises.

Your post makes it almost sound like there was a vendeta of sorts. If so, not cool, especially based upon the circumstances surrounding the car's owner.

Is it just me or does all this secret squirrel stuff just irritate the hell out of you?

I think this is a new record for us ... 3 days post race and we're bitching and complaining. It usually takes a week or so. :wink:

mitchntx
06-21-2006, 11:03 AM
I see Mr. rierson is on the board.

I would very much like to hear his side of the start to R3 as I was almost directly behind him whenit all went down.

From my POV, it looked like most evryone went left to avoid the stalled traffic.

Mike Bell
06-21-2006, 11:05 AM
Plus he's usually got some great video to share! Hint, Hint. :wink:

michaelmosty
06-21-2006, 11:20 AM
I see Mr. rierson is on the board.

I would very much like to hear his side of the start to R3 as I was almost directly behind him whenit all went down.

From my POV, it looked like most evryone went left to avoid the stalled traffic.
Mitch,
The video I have from the R3 start looks pretty crazy. Since the Corvette "didn't move" it messed things up BIG TIME. Chris Lyons had no where to go behind the vette and the green Firebird cut left to avoid CL getting into Rierson.
At one point it was 6 WIDE with (from left to right) RayBob (blk + org camaro), Rierson, Tommy (green firebird), Lyons, Burch (left wheels on track, car on grass), and Corey (way to the right on grass).
I'll get it edited and see about posting it.

AI#97
06-21-2006, 12:20 PM
[
At one point it was 6 WIDE with (from left to right) RayBob (blk + org camaro), Rierson, Tommy (green firebird), Lyons, Burch (left wheels on track, car on grass), and Corey (way to the right on grass).
I'll get it edited and see about posting it.

Yeah, when I saw Burch's video I was like, "well, Corey started right where he left off and got some potato farming in!" :lol:

Post the video because THAT will be something to put in the highlight video!

David Love AI27
06-21-2006, 12:22 PM
Since I was on the outside looking in, I too questioned the start with AI in front of AIX. Maybe to was based on lap times combining AI and AIX?? I believe DA is confusing the issue, it was more to do with "outsiders" and inexperience. I screwed up a couple of standing starts due to inexperience, but fortunately I started in the rear. The two problems I saw in R4 are:

1.) Guy in Vette did not know where the flagman was and missed the start.

2.) Guests in AI were not aware of driving styles and the fact that Skip is not gonna stick his nose in too far to pass. I ALWAYS allow him to go by without hesitation and I believe all the "slower" AI guys do the same.

I talked to the "Dudes" and there attitude was "he is in a faster car, he needs to make the pass". I think if we went to another region we would do the same. There are some "issues" in our group that need to be explained at the driver's meeting or in private when others join us.

mitchntx
06-21-2006, 12:27 PM
Mitch,
The video I have from the R3 start looks pretty crazy. Since the Corvette "didn't move" it messed things up BIG TIME. Chris Lyons had no where to go behind the vette and the green Firebird cut left to avoid CL getting into Rierson.


That's the way I saw it as well. Tommy was trying avoid cars on his right, his left and in front.

Mr. Rierson lost, unfortunately

michaelmosty
06-21-2006, 12:37 PM
I agree Mitch, Tommy did an amazing job not to make contact w/ Lyons (at least I don't think he did). The one mistake at the start affected a dozen people.
I don't mind posting the video for others to see but I would rather it not make it to the highlight video. When you watch the video all it looks like is one big cluster f&@#.

raybob9289
06-21-2006, 12:42 PM
I agree Mitch, Tommy did an amazing job not to make contact w/ Lyons (at least I don't think he did). The one mistake at the start affected a dozen people.
I don't mind posting the video for others to see but I would rather it not make it to the highlight video. When you watch the video all it looks like is one big cluster f&@#.

michaelmosty,
Post the Video!

GlennCMC70
06-21-2006, 02:57 PM
is it me, or has that guy in the Vette been @ the center of way too many issues/incidents? yes, hes the guy who drove the FFR Cobra last year durring the friday practice day @ MSR that ended up getting T boned by me and taking out Libby and another Miata.
seems like to me, he needs to pay more attention to whats going on around him. stalling a car on a standing start??? sounds like thats too much car for him.

Waco Racer
06-21-2006, 03:02 PM
Why is NASA still making AIX start behind AI on inverted starts? AIX is not racing AI and this weekend was a perfect example of the problems associated with the current inverted start concept.

This is an easy fix. From here on out AIX, AI, AIV, & CMC will all be inverted by class only based on results of first race of the day.

Mike Bell
06-21-2006, 03:02 PM
is it me, or has that guy in the Vette been @ the center of way too many issues/incidents? yes, hes the guy who drove the FFR Cobra last year durring the friday practice day @ MSR that ended up getting T boned by me and taking out Libby and another Miata.
seems like to me, he needs to pay more attention to whats going on around him. stalling a car on a standing start??? sounds like thats too much car for him.

Is that popcorn from a 50K bag? 8)

jeffburch
06-21-2006, 03:04 PM
He didn't stall it!
He was waiting for the flagger to come down to flag us.
Someone who overheard him saying this relayed it to me.
He was sleeping.

numbnuts!!!

jb

AI#97
06-21-2006, 03:14 PM
is it me, or has that guy in the Vette been @ the center of way too many issues/incidents? yes, hes the guy who drove the FFR Cobra last year durring the friday practice day @ MSR that ended up getting T boned by me and taking out Libby and another Miata.
seems like to me, he needs to pay more attention to whats going on around him. stalling a car on a standing start??? sounds like thats too much car for him.

Typical corvette driver..... :roll: Sorry Mr. Mixon..didn't mean you!

Between car prep issues, driver issues and kind of a cocky sense of achievement, definte watch list material when in proximity on course...

michaelmosty
06-21-2006, 03:26 PM
He didn't stall it!
He was waiting for the flagger to come down to flag us.
Someone who overheard him saying this relayed it to me.
He was sleeping.

numbnuts!!!

jb
Yea, thats what the flagger does, they leave the "FLAGSTAND". :roll:

CMC17
06-21-2006, 03:37 PM
Nothing is worse than missing the green flag and not prepared to go. It has happened in the past (Becky) and will probably happen in the future whether that be in our own class or an out of class car.

Driver's meeting would be a great time to go over (briefly) the standing starts. Heck, have an air horn sound off to let every know the start is about to happen.

Simple for some and not for others not to mention a lapse in attention can spell disaster.

Beat and bash the Corvette guy over it, but in doing so, please take something positive from this and try to make "next" time better.

gt40
06-21-2006, 04:00 PM
He didn't stall it!
He was waiting for the flagger to come down to flag us...IF that is the case, it doesn't make any sense! If the flagger is at ground level, only the first few rows will be able to see him, leaving everyone else at a distinct disadvantage. You want him up high where everyone else will see him.

I think sounding an airhorn a few seconds before the start is a great idea -- as long as everyone understands that the horn is a warning only and does NOT signal the start of the race!

GlennCMC70
06-21-2006, 04:13 PM
the flagger did raise thier hand to indicate to the field that the grid was set and the green was about to fly.

and i'm not trying to pick on the guy, but its been consistant since i joined NASA.

AI#97
06-21-2006, 04:34 PM
Just a question and there I am not implying anything toward anyone at all....just curious.....but who actually verifies which drivers attend the MANDATORY driver's meetings?

Reason I ask is that there have been items covered in the meetings that seem to be ignored or the driver was not at the meeting?

jeffburch
06-21-2006, 04:40 PM
Heck, have an air horn sound off to let every know the start is about to happen.

They could just replay reveille again. 8)

Bock - boooock- b - b - b - bock - booock


jb

Garbage
06-21-2006, 04:47 PM
Wow. I missed all that starting drama on the standing start. Nailed the throttle and never looked back.

Out of Class racers should start in back if they don't have experience on standing starts or don't understand the concept of a standing start.

Out of Region racers need lessons on humility before bashing safe Regional racers.

Inverted starts should be limited to class cars and not mixing the classes. The whole purpose of an inverted start is to give the folks you are racing against a chance to win. Racing the field is not a good idea.

Post race inspections are good and will keep the cheating down to a minimum. The only thing I ask is if NASA can warn us as to how long the inspection will take. Then maybe we, the drivers, can stock water at the impound so we can hydrate after the race. I was not even sure we could leave the area or get out of our monkey suit. Getting out of that garb is all I can think about when coming off the track. Standing around for 30 minutes is not fun. Add to that, we were stressed for time between rounds and cars need maintenance.

Show some sensitivity to the lack of time and need for maintenance.

AI#97
06-21-2006, 05:05 PM
Show some sensitivity to the lack of time and need for maintenance.

Was the time we asked Clifton for the week before the race not enough....or not followed? Again, wasn't there but I am looking for info....

mitchntx
06-21-2006, 05:13 PM
Beat and bash the Corvette guy over it, but in doing so, please take something positive from this and try to make "next" time better.

The new, kinder, gentler SchuVarner. :lol:

mitchntx
06-21-2006, 05:15 PM
Heck, have an air horn sound off to let every know the start is about to happen.

They could just replay reveille again. 8)

Bock - boooock- b - b - b - bock - booock


jb

So ... feeling the pain meds working are we?

:D

jeffburch
06-21-2006, 05:26 PM
Heck, have an air horn sound off to let every know the start is about to happen.

They could just replay reveille again. 8)

Bock - boooock- b - b - b - bock - booock


jb

So ... feeling the pain meds working are we?

:D
Negative. None Tues or today. Just me :lol:

jb

David Love AI27
06-21-2006, 07:44 PM
Heck, have an air horn sound off to let every know the start is about to happen.

They could just replay reveille again. 8)

Bock - boooock- b - b - b - bock - booock


jb

So ... feeling the pain meds working are we?

:D
Negative. None Tues or today. Just me :lol:

jb

JB on meds?!? SCAREY thought... poor Bev.

Todd Covini
06-22-2006, 12:18 AM
Why is NASA still making AIX start behind AI on inverted starts? AIX is not racing AI and this weekend was a perfect example of the problems associated with the current inverted start concept.

1. Do not come back and tell me AIX is slower than AI. I walked away from the field this weekend.

2. Trying to work my way through the field only messes up battles between slower AI drivers.

3. Contact occured this weekend between an unskilled AI driver and a very safe AIX driver.

The current system must change. Don't tell me the current concept is good for the series. The two AIX cars that are currently in Texas are rapidly changing and getting better. We should not have to start behind AI on inverted starts. Ever! But maybe it is best for the series to lose two more cars by the end of the season, because directors can't see what is really best for the series. Or maybe you just want to see a good wreck and then you will make a knee jerk reaction change. At that point is it too late. Either a car is totalled or a driver is hurt.

FYI: You (directors) have alienated several of the better drivers in the region and they are gone after the end of this season. I suppose that is good for the series.

Aaaaa-gain....wish I was there.

Since this was addressed to "directors" I assume I was one of the ones it was meant for. Some of our better drivers that you mention who are leaving are the very same people who are dictating what the starting order will be. The series directors have not had control over this aspect of the race weekends for the past 2-3 events. I've always said it makes sense that the faster cars start out front, as long as there is a considerable population of them. In the past, we've looked at this on an event by event basis and scrutinized the # of drivers/qual times/split grids, etc. to decide what is best. That ability has been removed, so you are now at someone else's discretion and whatever <insert name here> motivitions are.

At the present time, we are a knee-jerkin' organization...not my style, I'm more of a long term guy.

Much hub-bub going on behind the scenes and unless a series director is actually steering this bus for the greater good of the series, then what we end up with is a fairly wild ride, as you're seeing.

So...hopefully, we can get things sorted out before the next event. I'm sure everything will come out in the wash and we'll have a great mid-year review and update in person at TWS!!!

-=- Todd

donovan
06-22-2006, 01:09 AM
Looking forward to seeing you at TWS Todd!

David D.

jeffburch
06-22-2006, 06:57 AM
I wish some CMC authority was there as well.



jb

Garbage
06-22-2006, 08:27 AM
Todd,

I did not mention names, because I don't know who is running the show. Everybody is pointing in someone else's direction. "No, I don't make the rules. They make the rules." And vice-versa.

That leaves a racer spinning faster than...insert name.

A ship without a captain. Committees suck. Dictator's are the only way to go. A sensible dictator.

You have been absent at every event I have attended this year. When you are absent, that is usually when things are at their roughest. Sense and sensibility is what this series needs. Long term vision with and eye for all classes.

Sincerely,
David

CMC17
06-22-2006, 08:29 AM
<puts down 8k remote>

<pulls up chair>

<listens intently>

AI#97
06-22-2006, 09:53 AM
Ok, I will stand as Dictator and I proclaim "point bys" or else! :lol:

David has hit a point that I support, a benevelent dictatorship ruling the series by the letter of the CCR and AI revision is what is needed. Once we all come to common ground on any gray areas the CCR does not specifically bring up such as grid arrangements, ONE person should run things as dictator. Now as a dictator and to be fair to the group, that person should NOT be a participant in the series or be a friend of any of the competitors....that's not his job.

In the words of rodney king...why can't we just all get along? or just get in the cars and race and race hard!

I can't wait for TWS....I am bouncing in my seat!!!!!

CMC17
06-22-2006, 11:29 AM
Ok, I will stand as Dictator and I proclaim "point bys" or else! :lol:

David has hit a point that I support, a benevelent dictatorship ruling the series by the letter of the CCR and AI revision is what is needed. Once we all come to common ground on any gray areas the CCR does not specifically bring up such as grid arrangements, ONE person should run things as dictator. Now as a dictator and to be fair to the group, that person should NOT be a participant in the series or be a friend of any of the competitors....that's not his job.

In the words of rodney king...why can't we just all get along? or just get in the cars and race and race hard!

I can't wait for TWS....I am bouncing in my seat!!!!!

Throttle back Turbo... there can be only one Sherriff in this here town. 8) :lol:

mitchntx
06-22-2006, 12:18 PM
Throttle back Turbo...


Not sure why I just fell out of my chair laughing ... but I did ....

:lol:

AI#97
06-22-2006, 01:04 PM
Throttle back Turbo... there

Who the hell told you about my new turbo motor?! Somebody has been snooping around the garage I guess.... :?

Adam Ginsberg
06-22-2006, 03:45 PM
I'm going to try and cover a few points that have been brought up.

1. Directors at an event - There are two directors for AI/CMC - Todd and myself. It's been that way since 2003. If only one director is present at an event, that's who is running the show for the weekend.

Hallett is the only event a regular series director wasn't present - ever. I was there in the morning, but a family emergency called me back to Dallas. To complain about a director not being present for this event in particular, based on the circumstances, doesn't give any justice to Todd or I.

There are 2 directors for a reason - 1 person can't do the job alone, and there has to be a contingency when one director can't make an event.

Richard Pedersen and David Donovan were acting series directors that weekend, as they've been a huge asset in the past with series items. You all owe them a "thanks" for their support.

MSR-C in April was a tough one due to NASA Texas getting a handle on contact. Was it perfect? No. Did we all learn a valuable lesson? Yes - how do we know? Contact issues have dropped dramatically since.

MSR-H in May wasn't rough at all from a series perspective ( tech issues of Nomex socks and the fines aside ), IMO, with the exception of a few people being very dissatisfied about having to weigh after qualifying. For those who thought it was pure BS the AIX cars had to weigh after qualifying on Saturday...here is a quote from the 2006 AI/X rules:

Section 8.4 - Impound


All finishing drivers in both classes must proceed to impound immediately after any race or qualifying session unless released by a NASA official. Failure to do so may result in penalties being imposed on the driver. It is purely the driver’s responsibility to report to impound with the vehicle and vehicle’s logbook at the proper time. If the vehicle is unable to report to impound, the driver must report to impound and remain until released by a NASA official.

Using the argument "We've never done that before!' is irrelevant. We will continue to change things up regarding tech inspections from time to time to keep everyone on their toes. It's the right thing to do for the series.

2. Dictatorship - interesting point of view. In the past, when we ( the series directors ) have made a decision/decisions that is, in our opinion, in the best interest for the series, but is unpopular amongst a few racers, a vote has been demanded. That has caused our ship to veer off course when we are working so hard to steer in the right direction for the series.

So....some want a dictator, some want to vote on everything. Makes it confusing, huh?

As to the comment of the directors alientating some drivers - each racer has their own reasons for racing/not racing. We do our best to encourage each person to come and race with us, but fully realize that we aren't going to keep every single racer 100% satisfied.

It's unfortunate, and it bothers Todd and I greatly, but that's the reality. We aren't giving up, and we aren't leaving as directors.

To some specific points/people now:

David Armstrong - it's clear you feel I've done a very poor job as a series director. It's unfortunate you feel that way, but I disagree with your assessment. I'm always open for a phone call to discuss - that goes for ANY competitor. Has since 2003.

Matt White - as I alluded to above, we've worked hard to make the right decisions for the series, even when that means it won't be the right decision for a particular competitor. We have to keep an eye on what's right for the group as a whole, which is what keeps the series strong, and brings in new cars/drivers. As I've mentioned before, the CCR's and the AI rules do not cover running the series - that's what you have series directors for.

AI#97
06-22-2006, 04:25 PM
Whoa Adam! Not intending to push buttons here but asking questions only. The dictatorship comment was meant as a suggestion once we iron out the gray areas with a vote. From that point on, lead with an iron fist of consistancy.

sorry if it sounded like I was bitching... Heck, i wasn't even there to have anything to complain about!!! :lol:

Garbage
06-22-2006, 05:00 PM
Adam,

I don't think you have done a poor job. You have a thankless job. I think things have grown out of hand. There was not enough control in the beginning when the series was small. Now that NASA has pushed a bunch of cars into the series, there is anarchy.

I don't understand why it should take complaining before change is made in a positive direction. Anticipation of a problem followed by a smooth transition keeps everyone happy.

example:
1. Impound: techs should tell everybody what is going on and allow us to rehydrate. What is the need for secrecy? That is my only complaint. Impounds are good. Plain and simple. It keeps the field honest. I don't have an issue with teching cars.

2. Inverted starts: I don't know how many times I have heard you are not racing the field. Why then put AIX behind AI? Why not allow us to start in front of AI? There are less AIX cars for the AI group to pass. You can bet if I don't feel like keeping pace with the front AI cars, I will let them by me. I have done it at MSRC during the 40 minute race. No problem with pride to wave someone by me.

Those are my only complaints. I don't care about the politics of this series. I don't care who is running this ship. I want to race. I want to race in a relatively safe environment. Added risk is not necessary.

I have never cared about the rules of CMC or AI. That is why I moved my car to AIX. I don't want the headache of those two classes. I want to do what I want to to my car and for the most part be left alone. I have that freedom in AIX.

Again, I don't care about the politics. I just want a safe, organized, and consistant race weekend. That is it.


Sincerely,
David Armstrong

chicane23
06-22-2006, 05:00 PM
MSR-H in May wasn't rough at all from a series perspective ( tech issues of Nomex socks and the fines aside ), IMO, with the exception of a few people being very dissatisfied about having to weigh after qualifying. For those who thought it was pure BS the AIX cars had to weigh after qualifying on Saturday...here is a quote from the 2006 AI/X rules:

Section 8.4 - Impound


All finishing drivers in both classes must proceed to impound immediately after any race or qualifying session unless released by a NASA official. Failure to do so may result in penalties being imposed on the driver. It is purely the driver’s responsibility to report to impound with the vehicle and vehicle’s logbook at the proper time. If the vehicle is unable to report to impound, the driver must report to impound and remain until released by a NASA official.

Using the argument "We've never done that before!' is irrelevant. We will continue to change things up regarding tech inspections from time to time to keep everyone on their toes. It's the right thing to do for the series.

I'm not going to comment on the other great stuff you wrote in the message, but I want to comment back on the AIX weigh in at MSR-H.

The bit about AIX having to weigh at MSR-H was BS and I believe you heard that from a number of people that day, including a few women. So that alone is a perception in your eyes, and you and I both know we never see eye to eye and probably never will. You have always and I mean always said everyone must weigh or top 5 and we all are usually pretty good about coming to the scales. But when AIX got to the scales in the past events AIX was always turned away.

So when David (AIX) did not show up to the scales he gets DQ’d, that was total BS!
You did that exact same thing the next day, second time you wanted everyone to weigh, and David came over and to the scales you said just AI and CMC only. You were holding the white board that said “everyone”!


Please Note: I had no problem with me getting DQ'd for not showing up after qual. I understand and know I should have come in. I was just too busy working on my car and trying to work out issues and just didn't think about it.

Adam Ginsberg
06-22-2006, 05:26 PM
So when David (AIX) did not show up to the scales he gets DQ’d, that was total BS!

No, it wasn't. He was told multiple times on the grid that all cars were required to weigh after qualifying. All cars, including AIX. It's unfortunate he didn't come to the scales, but it's his responsibility to do so when directed by a Series and/or NASA official.

And, for clarification, only is qual time was thrown out. He was not DQ'd from the race.

chicane23
06-22-2006, 05:40 PM
No, it wasn't. He was told multiple times on the grid that all cars were required to weigh after qualifying. All cars, including AIX. It's unfortunate he didn't come to the scales, but it's his responsibility to do so when directed by a Series and/or NASA official.

And, for clarification, only is qual time was thrown out. He was not DQ'd from the race.

He was NOT told including AIX on grid....that is a total lie! We were told everyone must weigh after qual.

So how do you explain the screw up at the end when you were holding a sign that said everyone must weigh? And when David showed up you said no just AI/CMC top 5 and your board didn't say anything about just AI/CMC????????

GlennCMC70
06-22-2006, 07:22 PM
what the reason for AIX to hit the scales? no HP:wieght. no minimum wieght. i'm a little confused here.

Garbage
06-22-2006, 07:37 PM
Glenn,

Yeah, there is a minimum race weight. 2650 with driver. My car is no where near this minimum.

It was my fault for missing the scales at MSRH. I was told at the grid by someone just before qualifying. And it is my fault for forgetting about it after the session was over. I will not make that mistake again. I apologized to Adam for getting upset at that event.

J.G.,

Please let that issue go. I am not upset about it anymore. Lesson learned.

Sincerely,
David Armstrong

FYI: I thought it was going to happen again at Hallett. I came off the track and went straight to impound. There was no one at impound. So I drove over to my pit, only to look back and see NASA officials running toward impound. If I had been DQ'd for that, I would have lost my temper and never found it again. :?

chicane23
06-22-2006, 08:41 PM
Not a problem I will drop it DA.

I would have never made a remark if the instigator didn't bring it up! ;-)

Garbage
06-22-2006, 08:53 PM
Understood.

Sincerely,
DA

marshall_mosty
06-22-2006, 09:52 PM
I think that radios in our cars would solve a bunch of those problems. Once the qualifying/race is over, NASA could brodcast AND have a sign (belt and suspenders) on who is going to impound.

Now, we just need to find a way for NASA and Boudy to work out the radio thing...

Todd Covini
06-22-2006, 11:54 PM
Whoa..."Adam the Terrible" really jumped out there with his dictator outfit on, didn't he?!?!?! :lol:

You guys are coming in at a "10" and I need you at a "2". Let's kick it down a few notches and try to talk rationally because I think it's obvious there are some raw nerves exposed right now.

David, I don't mean to make an example of you...but I'm going to use your quote to try and explain something.


Glenn,

Yeah, there is a minimum race weight. 2650 with driver. My car is no where near this minimum.


In a nutshell, this is a prime example of some of the frustration on the part of the directors. Let's all put our reasonable hats on now and think about the "AIX cars to the scales" order by the Dictator.

1) There IS a minimum weight for AIX.
2) Everyone knew DA's car was no-where near 2650 last year (when there weren't any other AIX cars running) and he was never req'd to scale his car. It didn't make sense to.
3) This year there looks to be some great competition in AIX and car count is picking up.
4) DA's car had an extreme make-over and showed up to the event with bad-ass carbon-fiber nose, doors and decklid for his first event of the season.
5) DA knows his car isn't anywhere near the limit (because he's checked) and many are frustrated why an AIX car should be made to go to impound....OK, but his competitors and the series dictators don't know if he is anywhere near the limit of the rules now....until he reports to the scales!

#5 is what I want to make my point. We are having a number of issues right now because individuals (all of us) are of the belief that "I" know what is right and why can't everyone else see that as clearly as I can?!?! "The sooner you come around to my way of thinking the better this series will be." This is leading to a lot of frustration on the part of racers AND directors. We're not COMMUNICATING and we're not COMPROMISING....and we're going to fix it.

In order to fix it, we will need to all put our baggage down and look forward with a clean slate and big picture perspective such as was the case with #1-5 above. Directors need to consider racer's needs....and racers need to consider Director's needs...for the general interest of the series.

We'll get there...

-=- Todd

Mike Bell
06-23-2006, 07:17 AM
Todd/Adam:

Sounds like things are getting closer to resolution via communications but I also still see some of the examples where the info gets lost or confused and some angst sets in.

Example from AG's post above:

Using the argument "We've never done that before!' is irrelevant.

It's not "irrelevant" to the participant. It's a change that may have been unexpected or not understood. Either way, calling it irrelevant is not the best word choice IMHO. Taking an extra 5 seconds to explain that "Hey, it's the start of the season and your AIX car hasn't been on the official NASA TX scales to ensure you are above the AIX min weight" would have probably handled the issue and helped the competitor understand the reason for the change.

Todd, your post is excellent as usual but you also say:


In a nutshell, this is a prime example of some of the frustration on the part of the directors.

Seems to me that the very thing that causes frustration for the competitors is causing frustration for the directors - COMMUNICATION ABOUT CHANGE.

Now we've picked up on a new buzzword, CONSISTENCY. I too like the sounds of it and I'm sure you do as well. But we can't be perfectly consistent when there are variables like car count, missing equipment, short staffing etc. which I'm sure all the competitors understand. So, that causes the need for change. I think we need to focus on the COMMUNICATION ABOUT CHANGE in addition to our efforts to find CONSISTENCY and most of these bumps should smooth out IMHO.

Now, given that, I'd like to broach a few more topics that I'd like to see resolved with NASA TX on race weekends:

1.) Mixing Group 5 and 8 - I like racing with Mr. Rierson but TBH I thought we had achieved a level of car count that enabled AIX/AI/AIV/CMC to run alone. Has that CHANGED? I very much do not want to race with ASC/Corvette/Porsche/Honda. Just my preference.

2.) Inverted starts - Did something CHANGE? Does it need to CHANGE? AIX behind AI or not - I never saw an official answer? TBH, I dislike inverted starts, and it seems to me that most of our incidents happen during them.

3.) Scales - Maybe we can go over again a CONSISTENT plan for weighing cars? Top 5 in each class after race 1 and 3 every race weekend? Something easily remembered by the competitors and directors? Also, can we get a commitment from NASA TX that the scales will be at every event? They are very important to CMC/AI rules.

4.) Race Schedule - Here's my biggie. I think we need a consistent date for release of the schedule (4 days prior, 5 days, pick a time) and not have it CHANGE so much? Also, time between rounds should be 1.5 hours IMHO, is that possible?

5.) VOTE or POLL - Personal again, seems we get "asked" to take a poll and then, regardless of the results, NASA TX makes a decision. Either don't bother with the poll and tell us you'd like some "input" before you make your decision or stick with the results of the vote.

I'm still pretty steamed that I voted for 4 x 20 but AFTER NASA TX decided to do 3 races at Hallett (based upon the poll results) I looked at the schedule and decided to quit wrenching on my car only to find out a day later they flip-flopped back to 4 x 20 due to possible temp issues in OK in June. When did Heat become a revelation or surprise?

Again, CONSISTENT vs. CHANGE vs. COMMUNICATIONS helps folks understand the who/what/why of the decisions made. OK, I'm off my soap box.

mitchntx
06-23-2006, 08:07 AM
As usual, excellent points, Mike




I'm still pretty steamed that I voted for 4 x 20 but AFTER NASA TX decided to do 3 races at Hallett (based upon the poll results) I looked at the schedule and decided to quit wrenching on my car only to find out a day later they flip-flopped back to 4 x 20 due to possible temp issues in OK in June. When did Heat become a revelation or surprise?

Again, CONSISTENT vs. CHANGE vs. COMMUNICATIONS helps folks understand the who/what/why of the decisions made. OK, I'm off my soap box.

On this point I thought it was crystal clear ...

We had voted and it was decided that we would do a 40 minute race on Sunday in order to get everyone out by a reasonable time.

The weekend prior, the heat caused a LOT of car and driver issues with 30 minute sessions. That same heat was forcast for NASA weekend.

So, in the eyes of safety, it was decided to make it 2 20s on Sunday.

A couple days later, a front comes barrelling through and cooled everything off. Changing AGAIN would have made a bad situation even worse.

I agree that consistency or the lack of surprises should be paramount. But I also realize that some flexibility ON BOTH SIDES has to be factored in to account for unforseen circumstances.

As far as Rierson and the gang running with us ....

Car count at Hallett was disturbingly low. Only 3 run groups. The Group 8 cars run about the same times as the faster CMC cars. And they have too much mass to put on track with the Legends. There was only 2 or 3 of them. I think it was a logical move. I don't see this single incident as a trend, rather a case by case decision.

I recall Rierson coming up to Glenn and letting him know that he wouldn't be factor in his race with Jeff or Corey. He was aware of potential and adequately communicated that.

Of course, from your position, on the couch drinking a Corona, you couldn't have known that. So, on paper, it might not be such a grand thing. But the reality of it was it was a non-factor.

JMHO

Mike Bell
06-23-2006, 08:41 AM
Mitch, it was Bud-Light but you nailed it. :)

We like the flexibility of NASA TX yet yearn for consistency. That's got to be fun for those running the show, lol.

mitchntx
06-23-2006, 09:08 AM
Mitch, it was Bud-Light


Why not just drink water? 8)

I think I'll have a home brewed creme ale this evening while watching my lovely bride mow the grass.

AI#97
06-23-2006, 09:22 AM
I'm still pretty steamed that I voted for 4 x 20 but AFTER NASA TX decided to do 3 races at Hallett (based upon the poll results) I looked at the schedule and decided to quit wrenching on my car only to find out a day later they flip-flopped back to 4 x 20 due to possible temp issues in OK in June. When did Heat become a revelation or surprise?



Don't even get me started on this one.... This BS decision, as if heat was an unknown safety item in the middle of f'n JUNE, to make a poll, have a majority vote of 3 races and then change it 4 days prior to a race is MF'ing stupid. And yes, I got fucked. Had it stayed 3 races, I would probably still have a very narrow lead in the points race (which strengthend my decision), now I am 56 points in the hole barely clinging to second ahead of Mr. Lyons....

My point over all is that as we all agree there is a serious lack of consistancy. The bigger problem is that quick, short sided decisions keep getting made to "catch Up" on what should already be the "Norm". The bigger problem is that we have been sitting around "discussing" this for what, 4 months now since I have been around and it seems it was a sore spot long before I got here. How difficult is it to take notes, pull them together, write a plan and make it happen and stick to it over and over and over??? Honestly?! From my newbie vantage point, the folks running the series are running it as an after thought and they only really begin to think about the next event MAYBE 4 days prior to loading up the equipment and heading out.....I mean really, HOW ON EARTH do you NOT bring scales to an AI/CMC event???? That's like driving cross country and leaving all 4 tires at home... or how about conducting a thorough CMC tech inspection and NOT know the f'n rule book....?!

Part of me is glad I chose not to attend Hallet because I think if I had, I would be soured 10x more than I already am....even if I had been successful and still on top in the points. From what I have read here in the last 4 days, it seems we made ZERO progress forward, and just took a huge giant leap backward. We have settled into a pattern of a good event, then a bad event, good, bad......that means TWS should be good, but MSR-H will end the season on a bad note.....

I will close with this..........CONSISTANCY!

thanks again! Have a wonderful day and smile! :?

Mike Bell
06-23-2006, 09:34 AM
For the record, I'm not saying it was a BS decision and I'm not saying anyone is MF'ing stupid.

I said I was still pretty steamed by the decision. No further than that for me, thanks.

AI#97
06-23-2006, 11:52 AM
For the record, I'm not saying it was a BS decision and I'm not saying anyone is MF'ing stupid.

I said I was still pretty steamed by the decision. No further than that for me, thanks.

Well, that was not meant to offend or include MB on my side....but I have said it and I meant it. Hate me for it if you will but something has to be said if we are going to make a change. Being passive, being agressive and being an a-hole hasn't worked to date......so I am open to suggestions on how to change things......maybe the suggestion is that NOTHING will change and the tide will come and go.....? :lol:

donovan
06-23-2006, 12:19 PM
I like inverted starts and lamps...

Todd Covini
06-23-2006, 05:12 PM
I totally agree with all the points on Consistency...however....there has to be some element of surprise when it comes to tech.

If we consistently tell folks we'll only weigh cars on R1 & R3......guess what...R2 & R4 results now become suspect.

If we consistently tell folks we'll only weigh certain cars, then the other car results now become suspect. Trust me...it happens...I can tell you stories.

If we consistently don't weigh after qualifying...guess what....pole positions now become suspect.

For 90% of the items, like race writeups, weekend schedules, driver meetings, etc. Consistency is King. However, some things in regards to tech do need to be changed up to keep everyone honest.

-=- T

GlennCMC70
06-23-2006, 05:17 PM
i agree w/ you on those points todd. no reason to tell people when they will not get caught cheeting.

mitchntx
06-23-2006, 05:30 PM
....

marshall_mosty
06-23-2006, 10:25 PM
Could we be told "before" we go out that we will have to report to scales so we can have water waiting to help "beat the heat"???

AI#97
06-25-2006, 10:41 PM
I like inverted starts and lamps...

It's "I love lamp.".....get it right!!! :wink:


What's funny is that inverted starts are no longer part of this hijacked thread!!!

donovan
06-25-2006, 10:51 PM
how could I mess that up... damn it...

That's alright, I ate your chocolate squirel.

AI#97
06-25-2006, 10:58 PM
how could I mess that up... damn it...

That's alright, I ate your chocolate squirel.


I am going to hide the tridents so you don't have to go into hiding from the law! :wink:

You don't have any hand grenades do you?! :shock: I could just picture you dropping them out of your car at me on the inverted starts!!! :wink: :lol:

mitchntx
06-26-2006, 06:53 AM
how could I mess that up... damn it...

That's alright, I ate your chocolate squirel.

Do you "guys" need to get a room?

:oops: :?

AI#97
06-26-2006, 07:56 AM
how could I mess that up... damn it...

That's alright, I ate your chocolate squirel.

Do you "guys" need to get a room?

:oops: :?

Nah! We are just doing our worst at trying to break up all the bitching and complaining with a little tasteless humor.....should we change movies now?