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View Full Version : Upcoming Dyno's from the Hallett race weekend



Adam Ginsberg
06-21-2006, 10:27 PM
Tomorrow, 22 June 2006, we will be dynoing Jeff Burch's and Robert Boudreaux's cars ( sealed at the Hallett event by NASA Texas ) at SpeedTek in Haltom City. That gets underway @ 11:30am - I'll be there to help Jeff unload/run it on the dyno/whatever is needed, as well as officiate and sign his dyno sheet.

Friday, 23 June 2006, my car will be dyno'd @ LG Motorsports in Wylie, TX @ 9:00am ( it was also sealed at the Hallett event, by NASA Texas ). The person(s) who felt so strongly that my car was/is illegal is cordially invited to attend this dyno session. Actually, anyone interested is welcome to attend this dyno session, to be overseen by a NASA Texas official.

donovan
06-21-2006, 11:21 PM
I sure hope the mystery is solved soon...

I would really like to know what the real story is behind the Tech Inspection they tried to preform on your car!

macstang
06-22-2006, 12:40 AM
An objective point of view...

Does it really matter what anyone dynos, we dont know what the cars weighed.

"Your numbers are 240, 310"

"My car weighed 3400"

Where would we go from there?

Mike Bell
06-22-2006, 05:09 AM
Exactly, with no scales at Hallett what are you getting dyno numbers for?

CMC17
06-22-2006, 08:36 AM
Seems like a waste of time since no "legal" weight was measured at the track. Anyone can say they were running extra weight if they are over.

1. Why weren't the scales available this time?
2. I'm sure there are lots of 'stuff' going on behind the scenes. What gives??
3. Consistency!!!!!!!

gt40
06-22-2006, 09:34 AM
If weight is such a critical factor in the rules (and it is,) then why doesn't NASA own a set of scales?!?

Without recorded weights, the dyno numbers are essentially meaningless and a waste of everyone's time and money.

donovan
06-22-2006, 09:44 AM
Without recorded weights, the dyno numbers are essentially meaningless and a waste of everyone's time and money.

I guess that is why they wanted to preform an engine teardown on a CMC car... no weight... so lets check for part numbers on the internal engine parts...

Mike Bell
06-22-2006, 09:51 AM
Without recorded weights, the dyno numbers are essentially meaningless and a waste of everyone's time and money.

I guess that is why they wanted to preform an engine teardown on a CMC car... no weight... so lets check for part numbers on the internal engine parts...

They wanted to do a teardown??? There's no teardown in CMC, who is "they"??

AI#97
06-22-2006, 09:56 AM
Without recorded weights, the dyno numbers are essentially meaningless and a waste of everyone's time and money.

I guess that is why they wanted to preform an engine teardown on a CMC car... no weight... so lets check for part numbers on the internal engine parts...

Mines sitting in the garage in 4000 pieces if anyone wants to take an inventory! I just have to get the heads back from Houston first!

Honestly, if 230/300 is the limit and 3250 is the weight.....what difference does it make what's under the hood? I guess I am looking at this from an AI stand point but.....?

donovan
06-22-2006, 10:12 AM
They wanted to do a teardown??? There's no teardown in CMC, who is "they"??

The NASA Techs + Jay... I was parked right next to it all and stayed there as mine was one of the last cars to get tech'd, but after coming off track from a 20 minute race about 25 minutes in tech was long enough... I had to go get ready for the next round. The whole thing was strange...

I'm still waiting for an official explanation as to what was going on... I want to know.

AI#97
06-22-2006, 10:40 AM
They wanted to do a teardown??? There's no teardown in CMC, who is "they"??

The NASA Techs + Jay... I was parked right next to it all and stayed there as mine was one of the last cars to get tech'd, but after coming off track from a 20 minute race about 25 minutes in tech was long enough... I had to go get ready for the next round. The whole thing was strange...

I'm still waiting for an official explanation as to what was going on... I want to know.

Keep in mind gang, we started to see this at the last event in Cresson where they were checking seatbelt mounting in POST RACE TECH.... figured that would be in PRE EVENT tech.....?

Anyway, where's my popcorn....?

gt40
06-22-2006, 10:40 AM
That was a bit odd.

The impound stuff didn't start until R2. In R2, I sat for a while and then they came around and checked the kill switch.

After R3, they made me do an egress test (I got out in 8 sec -- not bad for a fat-ass!)

After R4, they complained about some exposed electrical connections (a terminal strip,) that they wanted to see covered.

Did they do this to the other two race groups?

CMC17
06-22-2006, 11:24 AM
omg omg omg!!!!

Here's a beef I have... If the top 5 cars are pulled in after a race and get weighed.. that's 100% ok with me. However at Cresson the top 5 were pulled in and not only were they weighed, they were checked for seat belt mounting location for the submarine belt. If cars are going to be checked for compliance, I think ALL cars should be checked! Impound the whole lot and check 'em all. I don't understand (maybe I'm just slow) why only the top 5 have to be in compliance??!!??

Someone help me out here!

I want some positive reinforcement here, please don't send me to my room for a time out.

oz98cobra
06-22-2006, 11:52 AM
Here's the rub - pulling all the cars in our group to impound - with so many cars in AI and CMC now - usually creates more problems than it fixes.

At Hallett, it was even worse than some other tracks/events because they hearded us all up the hill towards the tech shed, but of course you can't fit 17 cars up there, so half the field was forced to either hold their foot on super hot brakes, or kill the engine and risk having it not restart as is often the case with hot engines. It was taking at least 30 minutes of standing around in the sun to get everyone through tech - which was 30 minutes we could not afford on a weekend with only 3 run groups and precious little time between sessions.

So while I agree in compliance checks are going to happen they ideally should be across the board, herding our whole group to tech post race is a very poor way of doing it. If they must do it post race, then I suggest perhaps they just send the top 4 to impound (as required by the CCRs), and then something like every other car? This should help keep the number manageable, and not inconvenience all the drivers all of the time.

Personally, I agree with Matt - there needs to be more pre-race checking - perhaps the tech guys need to wander through the pits more - come to us instead of us going to them when we aren't all trying to recover from the heat of battle.

gt40
06-22-2006, 12:34 PM
I have two observations:

First, if you're going to impound and check performance advantages (weight, sealing the hood for a dyno pull, etc...) then do it for the top N finishers in each race.

Second, if you're going to impound and check for safety or other items (egress test, sub strap mounting, etc...) pick M cars from the field RANDOMLY.

Then, N + M should equal some number of cars that can be pushed through the process in some qacceptable period of time (10 minutes? 15?)

Weighing and dynoing a back marker doesn't make much sense to me, and doing safety checks on only the top finishers doesn't make any sense, either.

mitchntx
06-22-2006, 01:01 PM
doing safety checks on only the top finishers doesn't make any sense, either.

Especially coming OFF the track.

However, I understand the necessity of it when Tech arrives at the nth hour.

Clifton has been very good about showing up at a reasonable time on Friday, I must say.

jeffburch
06-22-2006, 01:54 PM
I'm home.
224/297 avg.

Who reimburses the $65 and who has my 3 winner stickers and 4 medals?



jb

mitchntx
06-22-2006, 02:10 PM
I'm home.

Who reimburses the $65



Good luck ....

Mike Bell
06-22-2006, 02:11 PM
Congrats JB, well done. :)

CBurt Go
06-22-2006, 02:36 PM
I'm home.
224/297 avg.

jb

He was throwing rocks (literally) all over the place. Nice numbers!

JB
At first I thought those wooden ramps were some funky ballast and was going to speak with Mitch about updating his car to make it faster.

AI#97
06-22-2006, 03:12 PM
Personally, I agree with Matt - there needs to be more pre-race checking - perhaps the tech guys need to wander through the pits more - come to us instead of us going to them when we aren't all trying to recover from the heat of battle.

Well, I suppose the effort of setting up Tech on Friday night and then early saturday morning to cover the "safety" points is hard to do if you just show up with a log book and no car? Seems like we are working the problem backwards again. Tech the cars before the race....do QUICK compliance checks after each race....do rotor rooters if protest is filed ONLY....pretty f'n simple if a rookie can figure it out!!!! :roll:

CMC17
06-22-2006, 03:21 PM
I'm home.
224/297 avg.

Who reimburses the $65 and who has my 3 winner stickers and 4 medals?



jb

Nice numbers out of a 305. Those California cars are always right on.

I will sell you some stickers. :lol:

Adam Ginsberg
06-22-2006, 04:56 PM
If you recall from last year......

NASA Texas wanted to do a full tech inspection for each car prior to getting a windshield sticker ( required to get out on track and compete ). This created a situation where folks were missing track time on Saturdays due to the long lines if tech wasn't accomplished on Friday evening. We worked with NASA to get the following approved:

1. If the car has a clear annual, a competitor only has to show up to tech with his/her logbook, and personal safety gear. Once a race car tech sheet is filled out, the logbook gets signed, and a windshield sticker is issued.

2. If the annual required fixes, the competitor was required to bring the vehicle, logbook, and personal safety gear to tech for sign off.

3. If the vehicle had damage from a previous event, the vehicle, logbook and driver's personal safety had to come to tech to be examined, and signed off.

As far as we know, this process hasn't changed.

The issues you folks have brought forward from the Hallett event will get review w/NASA Texas, and a resolution sought.

Jeff - please be sure to contact Shannon w/NASA Texas to get reimbursed for your dyno. We'll work with NASA to get winner stickers, and medals.

Garbage
06-22-2006, 05:17 PM
Jeff,

The medals and stickers cost less than your dyno.

Medals: $1.00 each
Stickers: $.50 each
Spending an entire weekend at the track: Priceless.

There somethings you can't put a price on, like winning! :D

Sincerely,
David Armstrong

Lewis Tanner
06-22-2006, 10:29 PM
I've got an idea. If we're going to pull the entire field into impound in the hot sun, sitting in hot cars in hot racing suits, ruining our hot brake rotors for absolutely no reason at all, those that direct us to do so should have to sit in a 3x3 foot flat black painted metal box while we wait so they can understand how ridiculously inconvenient and uncomfortable sitting in a fresh from the track car for 10 minutes and then being told you did so for no reason at all and you should go back to the pits for your 30 minutes break before the next session now really is. Between that and the witch hunt, I'm wondering if they really want AI/CMC to attend the events.

mitchntx
06-22-2006, 10:47 PM
Take a breath Lewis ... if you are gonna complain about R3, please note that the issue was addressed in R4

Lewis Tanner
06-22-2006, 10:54 PM
Take a breath Lewis ... if you are gonna complain about R3, please note that the issue was addressed in R4


Maybe I'm a little fuzzy on the sequence of events, but I remember being pointed to impound in R3 (after being told that everyone was being brought to impound to prevent those running impound from having to sort leaders out), sitting for 10 minutes, having my kill switch tested (not 24 hours from the last time they tested it), then being sent on my way. Then I was waved in for R4, sat for 10 minutes, and the field was just released with no inspection at all. Hanging out on that hill in the sun trying to find a balance between melting my brake pads and keeping the car from overheating or not restarting wasn't so good.

mitchntx
06-22-2006, 10:58 PM
I too sat and waited in R3.

I was waived off by Ryan at the end of pit in and sent straight to my pit.

So, it wasn't a global issue.

Granted ... communication was lacking this weekend.

Lewis Tanner
06-22-2006, 11:07 PM
Granted ... communication was lacking this weekend.

Agreed. It wasn't the biggest issue I had with the weekend by a long shot, but I thought it warranted comment.

The guy in the ASC car, on the other hand...

Adam Ginsberg
06-23-2006, 12:35 PM
January dyno numbers posted on my windshield - 230/288.

Today's dyno numbers - 230/287.

Kevin Mixon was in attendance to verify the hood seal hadn't been touched, and to remove it. He inspected under the hood, while talking to Clifton on the phone, to verify the items marked by NASA Texas on Sunday.

We verified ignition timing, fuel pressure, tire pressures, and water temps for each pull. All were noted, and marked on the 2006 CMC dyno sheet. A copy has been turned over to NASA Texas. Logbook has been dated and signed.

Mike Bell
06-23-2006, 12:36 PM
Well done AG. Guess that answers the "repeatable" question I had.

marshall_mosty
06-23-2006, 10:38 PM
Adam,
I'm glad everything came in within "spec". Now it's time to go refill the sneaky pete bottle. :twisted:

macstang
06-23-2006, 11:48 PM
What does it matter if it was within spec if we dont know what ANYONE weighed?

I mean, why seal hoods for dyno numbers if the weight numbers are not there?

I am glad that Adam got those numbers because Daron said he thought the car felt weak.

I think money is being wasted dynoing cars that don't have valid, official weights along with them. Hell, take the money that was spent on dynoing and put it toward a set of scales.

If you can't tell, I am not happy that there wasn't scales there. we run a team that has 2 drivers that have different weights, and we want to be able to set the car up for either of us. We are going to nationals and assume that numbers there are going to be very close. we don't want to be guessing on those numbers while at Mid Ohio, that will be too late.

Adam Ginsberg
06-24-2006, 07:17 AM
Folks - we hear you loud and clear about the absent scales @ Hallett. Jerry has an excellent point that if a car is over their HP/TQ numbers ( in AI or CMC ), we have no way to verify if they were within weight.

Yes, it was a huge mistake. We are working with NASA to prevent it in the future.

bossskip302
06-26-2006, 05:50 AM
Gents...I bought the scales from Chad that had been used for some time and will bring them to all track events in the future needed or not....Y'all missed a good time at TWS this weekend with the SVTOA event.......

Skip

mitchntx
06-26-2006, 06:52 AM
Gents...
Y'all missed a good time at TWS this weekend with the SVTOA event.......

Skip

And y'll missed a great time at Texas Motor Speedway as well. I have done my job when the passenger is stomping the floor looking for that auxilliary brake pedal.

<create new invoice>
<fill in the amount>
<send>
<wait for the check to arrive>

8) :P :D

cjlmlml
06-26-2006, 09:38 AM
Adam,

Were you the random dyno car? I thought Burch was?

Not understanding why you had to go dyno.

Adam Ginsberg
06-26-2006, 01:51 PM
Adam,

Were you the random dyno car? I thought Burch was?

Not understanding why you had to go dyno.

Jeff's car was the random dyno cert picked out of the helmet. My car was sealed by the NASA Tech inspectors.

cjlmlml
06-26-2006, 03:02 PM
Since when do the Nasa tech inspectors seal hoods?

Adam Ginsberg
06-26-2006, 03:32 PM
Since when do the Nasa tech inspectors seal hoods?

Well, in the past, we ( the Series Directors ) have sealed hoods, not the NASA officials. However, they ( NASA Tech inspectors ) can seal a hood ( or 3 or 10 ) if they feel it necessary.

donovan
06-26-2006, 03:44 PM
Do they know we are doing it as a group? Should we stop wasting our money since they are going to do it?

Adam Ginsberg
06-26-2006, 04:01 PM
Ooo....my mistake for not relaying this information to the group. I thought we had covered this previously - my apologies.

At the beginning of this season, after our discussion about the series fee being used to pay for weekend random dyno checks, we ( Todd and I ) had a chat w/NASA Texas. They agreed to pay for one random dyno check each race weekend - we do not cover this out of our series fund.

Jeff Burch was our random dyno winner from Hallett. His car was dyno'd at NASA Texas' expense.

Boudy's car was dyno'd after Hallett, as he showed up without a current dyno sheet. Boudy paid for his dyno.

My car was sealed by NASA Texas tech inspectors. It was dyno'd at NASA Texas' expense.

To help clarify dyno procedures -

1. If you are sealed at the track for a random compliance check by a NASA or Series official, NASA Texas pays for the dyno. A NASA or Series official must be present to witness the seal coming off the car, and the dyno runs.

2. If a competitor comes to the track without a current dyno sheet ( first time the car is at the track, etc ), the owner has to cover the dyno costs. A NASA or Series official is not required to be present, but it never hurts to have one there.

3. If a competitor makes ANY change to the engine that could effect power in ANY WAY ( tune up, change of distributor, new cam, rebuild heads/shortblock, new intake, new exhaust/exhaust components, etc ), an updated dyno is required, to be paid for by the competitor. A NASA or Series official is not required to be present...but, same as #2, it never hurts to have one around.

The Series Directors will continue pulling a name from a helmet each race weekend, and sealing the hood on that car. That's part of what we do as Series Directors. NASA may seal an additional car ( or 2, or 10 ) as well.

Mike Bell
06-26-2006, 04:36 PM
At the beginning of this season, after our discussion about the series fee being used to pay for weekend random dyno checks, we ( Todd and I ) had a chat w/NASA Texas. They agreed to pay for one random dyno check each race weekend - we do not cover this out of our series fund.



So there have been TWO cars dyno'd each race weekend, one from our series fund and the other done by NASA TX?

Who were the lucky NASA TX selected/sealed dyno recipients from the previous 4 events prior to Hallett?

oz98cobra
06-26-2006, 04:49 PM
...
I am glad that Adam got those numbers because Daron said he thought the car felt weak.

....

Yes it did - we have been having overheating issues since R3 at MSRH, and it got too hot in R4 at Hallett and was down on power and started coughing and sputtering out of the corners - I had to short shift to make sure the temps stayed in check. I had to work hard to catch Mitch, and he was coasting in after screwing up his tire/steering!

The dyno shows the motor is fine - we just need to sort out the overheaing issue before TWS

mitchntx
06-26-2006, 04:57 PM
Further clarification ...

What about changing a broken throttle cable?

The way my restrictor plate was permenantly sealed at NPR last year, if I had broken a throttle cable, I would've to have broken the seal to replace it.

I would have then had to have had a new dyno cert or had a NASA official witness the work I did.

This sounds ridiculously stupid to me.

I say ...



17.5 Protests, Request for Action, and Appeals

17.5.1 Protests

Any entered driver may lodge a protest against another driver disputing the mechanical
compliance of their competition vehicle. To lodge a protest, the protestor shall obtain a
“Protest Form” from Registration, fill it out, and file it, along with the appropriate fee, with
the Race Director. The Race Director may accept the protest, may extend the time
allowed, or may reject the protest. For the protest to be valid, it must meet the following
conditions:

1. Be filed within thirty (30) minutes of the completion of the race.
2. Each part that is being protested must be named specifically.
3. Each part may be considered a separate protest, in terms of fees.
4. Each part listed shall be accompanied by the rule(s) number that it violates.
5. The title of the rulebook must be cited with each rule number.
6. Accepted by the Race Director.



This Jr. High bullsh!t of whining and crying to NASA, the Directors and/or other competitors about potential cheating has got to stop. It's getting old.

So if someone again thinks I've dicked with my restrictor plate, fill out the paperwork, write the check and then we'll look. Cause there ain't gonna be any more of this petty bullsh!t on the #9 car.

No more singling someone out. If NASA or the Directors wants my restrictor plate PERMENANTLY sealed, then by God in heaven I better see valve covers sealed on other cars.

Random till I get a dyno ... I understand. But this permenant crap just ain't gonna happen. If you think there is something suspicious, see 17.6 of the CCR.

We're adults here ... act like it.

Personally, it sounds like someone was trying to piss off Adam enough to get him to quit. JMHO ....

jeffburch
06-26-2006, 05:28 PM
Oh, it was definitely "mess with Adam day".
Cop mentality for ya (literally).
A friggin' joke (yet par).
Cartoon.




jb

AI#97
06-26-2006, 05:37 PM
If all this shit keeps up we might as well just all go rent V6 mustangs and go have a "spec" race.....haven't had so much fun in a long time!!!

Has anyone seen my baseball?!!!

Personally, I think we are all just about worn out with dealing with the BS so I am to the point of just not caring any more. I will show up with my ride, race as hard as I can and go home then just ignore it all. It's obvious nothing is going to change so in Jeff Burch's words, let's all just "cinch it up".....the arguments just aren't worth the payout anymore because all we are getting is $2 plastic medals....there is no marketing, there isn't any cute trophy girls probably cause there aren't any trophies, there aren't any Speed TV people in the bleachers and NO ONE ever hears about our races to even come out and watch them because no one is thinking of selling tickets or announcing it on the radio, and the racers have to pay to hold their awards banquet at the end of the year when WE all already know the outcome.

The boat to the Big Picture left and there was no one on it!

See you monkeys in August! :lol:

donovan
06-26-2006, 05:42 PM
Three books, no one said anything about three books...

AI#97
06-26-2006, 05:55 PM
Three books, no one said anything about three books...

If you are talking about the books of Star Wars.....keep in mind the order they made the movies was 4,5,6, 1,2, 3!!! :wink: :P

Adam Ginsberg
06-26-2006, 06:19 PM
So there have been TWO cars dyno'd each race weekend, one from our series fund and the other done by NASA TX?

No, only one dyno per weekend, all paid for by NASA Texas. Hallett was unique, in that JB's hood was sealed as the winning # pulled from the helmet, and mine was sealed by NASA Texas.


Who were the lucky NASA TX selected/sealed dyno recipients from the previous 4 events prior to Hallett?

RP @ MSR-H in May, Eric Varner @ MSR-C in April, Todd Covini @ MSR-C in March.

Matt - there is marketing for AI/AIX and CMC. Every race writeup is marketing for the series. I disagree with your assessment that no one hears about our racing - I get emails/phone calls every week about folks interested in racing with us, all due to our writeups and emails.

Mike Bell
06-26-2006, 07:23 PM
If you're good with it AG then that's what matters in this case. Someday when I get picked for such special attention I may need your help in remembering the who/what/why. :?

See you guys in August at TWS. :D

donovan
06-27-2006, 12:14 AM
Three books, no one said anything about three books...

If you are talking about the books of Star Wars.....keep in mind the order they made the movies was 4,5,6, 1,2, 3!!! :wink: :P

Nope... Evil Ash & Good Ash...



Highlight below for movie title...
Army of Darkness - B rate Bruce Campbell Movie

CMC17
06-27-2006, 07:33 AM
You guys need to get out more. lol

donovan
06-27-2006, 08:04 AM
:oops:

CMC17
06-27-2006, 08:14 AM
LOL I guess I'm one to talk.. Just because I'm a lvl 60 Night Elf Rogue and helped 39 other combatants in our raid group take down a high level instance dungeon boss.... doesn't mean I need to get out more too? Right? :lol:

AI#97
06-27-2006, 08:46 AM
LOL I guess I'm one to talk.. Just because I'm a lvl 60 Night Elf Rogue and helped 39 other combatants in our raid group take down a high level instance dungeon boss.... doesn't mean I need to get out more too? Right? :lol:

Uhmmm.....what? :lol:


<----Not as nerdly as Schuvarner!


Adam, you are probably right about what YOU do...my reference was NASA TX in general. They should be making some sort of contact or making presentations at events like Driver's edge, SVTOA, any PCA or BMW HPDE's...etc. I think it would be really neat to work a deal with TMS during their Laps for Charity to do an exhibition event similar to what MRT did at Mid America..... Does all that make sense if your goal is to increase car counts?

Here is what's in my Carnack envelope....Group 5 is the only group that is growing, all other run groups are shrinking every event. If we don't have 40 car fields soon, there will be just one big run group like in Florida with 70 cars on track...This is terrible for spectators because they sit for 3 hours between races. I just get the feeling someone has thrown their hands in the air and given up.....and it isn't just the racers.... :(

mitchntx
06-27-2006, 09:25 AM
I think it would be really neat to work a deal with TMS during their Laps for Charity to do an exhibition event similar to what MRT did at Mid America..... Does all that make sense if your goal is to increase car counts?


Makes perfect sense ... but Jerry at TMS is a PITA to work with.

We MIGHT be able to swing the IRC, but I doubt the track would let us on the Roval.

oz98cobra
06-27-2006, 09:56 AM
Matt does have a point. I am surprized at how little attention NASA TX draws to itself?

What Adam does is almost like "preaching to the converted" if you like as the news is being targeted to car nuts, and it has been quite successful in attracting the attention of potential new racers for our series. This is a good thing, and very much appreciated, but I think what Matt is saying is that NASA TX needs to do more to promote their events as a whole?

Compared to club racing events that I used to do in Australia, the one thing missing from NASA events is atmosphere - no spectators and no race commentors. Back DownUnder, grass roots race club meetings actually draw spectators - not TMS size crowds, but a couple of hundred - couple of thousand folks perhaps - similar to what you would find at a Friday night dirt track event. These events are also reported in the local press, including TV.

But this doesn't happen because Aussie's or the Aussie media think club racing is some big deal and seek out these events for themselves - it happens because the clubs who promote it do a little basic marketing - they place ads and/or listings in the local newspapers, perhaps a couple of radio spots in the week leading up to it, and they contact local TV stations who more often than not send a crew out for a couple of hours, which results in a 30 second slot on the Sunday night news sports round up.

If NASA TX did stuff like this, and we had a couple hundred folks coming out to events, and perhaps an occasional news item in the local papers or on TV, it would make it a whole lot more attractive for local companies to become sponsors when racers go knocking on doors. Also, some of those spectators who own Vettes and Mustangs, etc would see the HPDE and come back as participants.

So what would be needed to change this? NASA TX needs a PR/marketing person for starters - and someone to commentate the race meetings - and of course as you start to get a spectator following, you need to be able to accomodate them, so things like concessions, security, and porta-loos become part of the race weekend routine (funded of course by the spectators entry fees).

And no - I'm not volunteering for the job - but I think it would be a good thing for NASA if they did this!

gt40
06-27-2006, 10:58 AM
...I think what Matt is saying is that NASA TX needs to do more to promote their events as a whole?Absolutely!


Compared to club racing events that I used to do in Australia, the one thing missing from NASA events is atmosphere - no spectators and no race commentors...that's a bit of a tall order, but its something to shoot for. Having a commentator goes a long way to makinging "normal" folks understand what's going on on the track, otherwise it's just a bunch of loud cars going in a circle.

Unfortunately, finding a good commentator isn't easy -- Watch a FOX F1 racing broadcast sometime. ;)

I seriously wonder if SPEED is looking for broadcast material. It'd be nice to get a crew out to tape a race weekend for broadcast.



Also, some of those spectators who own Vettes and Mustangs, etc would see the HPDE and come back as participants.Why don't we raffle off an HPDE weekend? Come out early with your car and raffle off the enrty fee Saturday morning at the driver's meeting?



So what would be needed to change this? NASA TX needs a PR/marketing person for starters - and someone to commentate the race meetings - and of course as you start to get a spectator following, you need to be able to accomodate them, so things like concessions, security, and porta-loos become part of the race weekend routine (funded of course by the spectators entry fees).

And no - I'm not volunteering for the job - but I think it would be a good thing for NASA if they did this!I agree 100%, but finding a commentator isn't going to be easy. Neither is putting together a PA system that you can actually hear during the race.

AI#97
06-27-2006, 11:10 AM
I too can't volunteer for the job as PR but only offer up suggestions as I don't have the time to commit to it.

The commentator idea is pretty good! They tried their best at hallet during the mid america deal to bring some attention to the event which would be great is a guy was up in the scoring stand practicing for a job on speed vision with car/driver facts, intervals between 1st and second, or "WOW, did you just see that pass in turn 3?!!!" That works the excitement AT the track but you have to get spectators in the stands. Easiest way is to post event notices at the race shops, make an ad on the local radio stations, event notices at all regional autox's and schools and .......everywhere....it's called a marketing blitz to get people to show up and watch. Devil's bowl speedway does a great job of this on the radio but it's typically country stations. How about a dinner for Anyone involved in running Race or HPDE events in the 5 state area to do a consolidated advertising campaign...???

I realize the TX group is relatively new in it's 3rd or 4th year but each year has to be stepped up. Granted our AI/CMC group is growing but the rest are dwindling. I would love to see the Spec E30 class spring up. There is a huge following here in this region and the BMWCCA has two club racing events each year tied into a DE. Great events and great people. There is also a ton of E30 bmw's in the area that can be had for cheap....I am looking for one myself.

Basically, what I am saying is the overall "effort knob" needs to be turned up by NASA TX...

Todd and Adam, I apologize for being so rough on you guys the last few months but it really comes down to that you guys were likely doing the best with what you were being dealt.....with ain't much at all.

you can all hate me for being so critical but I am just trying to make sure I have someplace to race next year instead of getting fed up all the time....need something to be excited about!!!!

Just my $3.00 worth....

mitchntx
06-27-2006, 12:04 PM
There is a finite market for racing/HPDE.

There are a LOT of "vendors" competing for their share.

The vendors that provide something extra or out of the ordinary are the ones that bubble to the surface.

The Driver's Edge is offering a night time Roval event at TMS. That is gaining rick a lot of momentum.

All sporting venues have to compete for the fan's dollar. NASA has done well to hold the DE entry fee to a very reasonable price ... but I think they went too far in raising the racer's fees too high. JMHO.

For NASA, Time Trials was a gold mine and I think Glenn and I did a good job at promoting the venue as we consistantly had more and more competitors sign up.

Time was the enemy though. I couldn't do the necessary duties and meet NASA's expectations and keep a race car running both. So, in fairness to me and NASA, I had to make a choice.

Trinkets are always a crowd pleaser. All HPDE entrants get a NASA-Tx ball cap "NASA-Tx - We drive harder, y'all" and the website address on the back. Folks take that stuff to work and proudly display it for their co-workers.

At NPR last year, the track sent out mailers promoting "V8 Muscle" and there was a very nice crowd at the track.

Finally, I think we need to look inwards and see just how good of an ambassador are we being for OUR sport. Marketing AI/CMC is not just Adam and Todd's job ... it's OUR job.

I take my car down to a local Kwik Lube and set it out front on display. The owner sells me stuff at cost and many times gives it to me. It generates interest for his business. But it also is an oppurtunity for me to publicly display our series.

Spend $10 and enter one of these mom and pop car shows that are all over the place. These car really catch the eye of gear heads and we all know we like talking about how great Eric SchuVarner and Juan Pablo Burch is.

Doing stuff like that isn't necessarily helping NASA ... it's keeping us a place to race.

And I don't want the marketing job either.

AI#97
06-27-2006, 12:12 PM
Finally, I think we need to look inwards and see just how good of an ambassador are we being for OUR sport. Marketing AI/CMC is not just Adam and Todd's job ... it's OUR job.



A few of us already do this to supplement what Adam does on Mustang and other types of car nut forums. I do regular updates on our region on Modulardepot.com and dfwstangs.net to try and spark interest and we have had some.....but what you find is the average user hasn't got the resources to do it. We probably need to focus on the higher end car clubs and get that word out. Sadly, mustang and camaro guys are becoming harder to find and the imports are starting to take hold with the younger crowd looking for a speed fix.

I am going to work on getting a passenger seat setup in my car so I can create some laundry work around town and put grins on passenger's faces.....but I can't commit to too much. I was hoping to get some print at the mid america deal either in a mustang rag or just general whoring out to the vendors.....but the car had some other ideas so I guess I need to wait till next year.... :(

mitchntx
06-27-2006, 12:35 PM
That's exactly what it takes, Matt.

macstang
06-27-2006, 03:20 PM
Army bases can be a good source of participants. I say this although I am not near one (I work on a National Guard camp). The soldiers come back from war, and have a pocket full of money. After getting shot at for a year, they are returning and taking high risks in their personal entertainment lives. They buy high performance cars and bikes, and run them, unsafely, all over. We are losing soldiers every day for this reason.

I have no idea how to market Fort Hood, but there are thousands of ppl in that particular situation on that base.

I have no idea what type of support the chain of command would have on our sport, many ppl are very closed minded and see HPDE as something other than a controlled environment in which to improve someone,s driving skills. I think the soldiers that I spoke of above are prime targets for marketing HPDE to. If anyone has any idea how to market Ft hood, or any other post for that matter, I will help any way I can.

donovan
06-27-2006, 03:24 PM
you can all hate me for being so critical

I hate you because you’re so beautiful

gt40
06-27-2006, 03:30 PM
If anyone has any idea how to market Ft hood, or any other post for that matter, I will help any way I can.Free rides for any active military personel. Stage a demonstration "race" at the base? (Surely they must have a large enough parkinglog to setup up and autocross-like course and let two cars lap it ane play with each other) that and just promote the Hell out of the next TWS and Houston (lots of bases in Houston,) events.

Not related to any one group in particular, but I've always felt we should give a discount for HPDE to anyone who's just bought a performance car (mustang, 'Vette, WRX, S2000, Miata, etc...) Set it up with the dealers. Remember when Bondurant gave a $200 discount to new Cobra owners?

oz98cobra
06-27-2006, 04:15 PM
...
Not related to any one group in particular, but I've always felt we should give a discount for HPDE to anyone who's just bought a performance car (mustang, 'Vette, WRX, S2000, Miata, etc...) Set it up with the dealers. Remember when Bondurant gave a $200 discount to new Cobra owners?

That Bondurant "discount" was subsidized by Ford. I can tell you from my association with other DE orgs that trying to do anything like this via dealers is unlikely to succeed - many others have tried and failed. There is a huge amount of work involved for small gain. Besides, NASA's HPDE is already cheaper than it needs to be - price is not the issue when it comes to participant numbers!

AllZWay
06-27-2006, 04:21 PM
I have been in both Nasa's HPDE and others..... Nasa has some work to do to try and recruit students away from some of the other groups.

I think Nasa should spend the effort to bring in more students to HPDE classes, since they sure help pay the weekend bills.

Also, they probably shouldn't make all the HPDE's so race oriented, since many of the people in HPDE's have no aspirations of racing.....just driving fast safely.

y5e06
06-27-2006, 04:22 PM
Stage a demonstration "race" at the base? (Surely they must have a large enough parkinglot to setup up and autocross-like course and let two cars lap it ane play with each other)

that most likely won't work either. Not mentionining the insurance issues associated with that, a number of great [government owned] auto-x and time trial sites (e.g. Cabiniss) were shut down after 9/11 and have never been used since. Of course this is part procedure and part post commanders' decisions. But as Jerry said, they can seem very closed minded.

AI#97
06-27-2006, 05:17 PM
That's exactly what it takes, Matt.

f'n right eh....but why are the racers having to organize it? If that's the case......?

AI#97
06-27-2006, 05:18 PM
you can all hate me for being so critical

I hate you because you’re so beautiful


Must be my Panteen hair....?

David Love AI27
06-27-2006, 05:29 PM
you can all hate me for being so critical

I hate you because you’re so beautiful

And I hate you cuz your car is faster than mine... maybe I missed the target... :shock: OK.. I don't hate YOU.... :) Just hate your car... :evil:

David Love AI27
06-27-2006, 05:52 PM
I have been in both Nasa's HPDE and others..... Nasa has some work to do to try and recruit students away from some of the other groups.

I think Nasa should spend the effort to bring in more students to HPDE classes, since they sure help pay the weekend bills.

Also, they probably shouldn't make all the HPDE's so race oriented, since many of the people in HPDE's have no aspirations of racing.....just driving fast safely.

I spent a lot of time discussing NASA with my student last weekend. He was not interested in racing mainly because he didn't want to put a cage in his daily driver BUT... he absolutely loved the idea of TT... He may come to the August event and bring both his brothers... I also had a very long talk with Dan Pasterini (sp?) and may have him convinced to leave SCCA and come over to the dark side (NASA)...

I have a cousin driving in HPDE and is looking to build/buy a spec neon (doesn't want to race his porsche) and by MSR Houston I should have 5 participants just from my immediate family. Mitch mentioned TT and I believe there is LOTS of room for growth... Where else can you compete in a actual race group in a street car??? With the facilities at TWS we should have at least 100 - 200 spectators... it is only 1hr drive from Houston and you can watch 2 days of racing for only $10.00... Maybe we should look to a charity organization(s) to do fundraisers at each event... Newspapers and TV stations allow free adspace and airtime to non-profits...

AI#97
06-27-2006, 06:49 PM
you can all hate me for being so critical

I hate you because you’re so beautiful

And I hate you cuz your car is faster than mine... maybe I missed the target... :shock: OK.. I don't hate YOU.... :) Just hate your car... :evil:

That's not hate, it's just envy!! :P Besides neither is very fast sitting on jackstands! :lol:

David, you have great points...actually, we all have great points...my final great point is WHY are WE having to come up with them...? :?

David Love AI27
06-27-2006, 07:50 PM
you can all hate me for being so critical

I hate you because you’re so beautiful

And I hate you cuz your car is faster than mine... maybe I missed the target... :shock: OK.. I don't hate YOU.... :) Just hate your car... :evil:

That's not hate, it's just envy!! :P Besides neither is very fast sitting on jackstands! :lol:

David, you have great points...actually, we all have great points...my final great point is WHY are WE having to come up with them...? :?

Mine is still sitting on the trailer :( , anybody got any ideas how to get it off the trailer without the rear wheel/axle :????

No answer to the other deal.... ask Carnack

mitchntx
06-27-2006, 09:41 PM
Geez ... what a bunch of bi-polar racers ...

First off hammering NASA for picking "on the little guy" (pun intended) and now figuring ways to promote NASA and draw crowds.

I need beer ....

AI#97
06-27-2006, 09:57 PM
Geez ... what a bunch of bi-polar racers ...

First off hammering NASA for picking "on the little guy" (pun intended) and now figuring ways to promote NASA and draw crowds.

I need beer ....

Mitch like I said...I am tired of looking at this in a negative way as it just isn't productive....maybe I am just growing up a little or maybe I have taken a dive off the cliff of sanity? :lol: I guess the goal like I said is to have a place worth racing in next year.....

macstang
06-27-2006, 10:10 PM
Mine is still sitting on the trailer :( , anybody got any ideas how to get it off the trailer without the rear wheel/axle :????


I got an idea, but you wont like it.

gt40
06-28-2006, 08:54 AM
Mine is still sitting on the trailer :( , anybody got any ideas how to get it off the trailer without the rear wheel/axle :????Fork-lift?

jeffburch
06-28-2006, 09:45 AM
Mine is still sitting on the trailer :( , anybody got any ideas how to get it off the trailer without the rear wheel/axle :????
You are not spending the 7 weeks off wisely. Monday after Hallett I fixed my left elbow. Thursday after I went to dyno. Friday after I got the car up on stilts and since I have removed the gas tank. Contemplating pullin the motor and throwing some Clevite 77h's in the bottom end. Contemplating Nationals. I was watchin vids of TWS from last year. I was letting the 27 car around. You better get your ass in gear!

jb

mitchntx
06-28-2006, 09:47 AM
You guys work too hard ....

Mine is still in the trailer .....

michaelmosty
06-28-2006, 09:56 AM
Mine is totally apart, lower radiator core fixed, bumper cover getting painted today, new radiator arriving tomorrow, and new "bling" added to the car. She'll get re-assembled after the 4th of July (beer) weekend. :D

mitchntx
06-28-2006, 10:10 AM
Long list of "to Do's" for TWS ...

- check the oil level
- check the tire pressures
- fill it with gas

That's the tow rig.

Basically the same thing for #9 ....

dirwin
06-28-2006, 10:25 AM
Promoting a group like this is very hard. Race groups are very difficult to promote because they really require a dedicated car, not your modified street car. That alone will rule out military. I am a vet and I can tell you that we didn't have a place to work on a car much less the money (enlisted) to build and maintain one. You are not going to be able to even talk to any base commander, much less get him to give permission to use government property for a auto cross.

Has anyone looked at what Speed charges to put your group on television? Networks pay NASCAR for the TV rights, SCCA and NASA PAY for the coverage. Look at Grand Am, it will cost you the competitor, $6000 per day if you want that "in-car camera" to show your sponsors on the dash and they only guarantee you like 2 30 second showings.

I am not saying that you can't promote NASA Texas because you can, but, the reality it will be the DE's, not the race groups that will benefit. SCCA is just about done with club racing and because they are so pigheadded they will not do DE's they are chosing to put all their eggs in the Solo 1&2 baskets. Watch what happens after the NASA nationals this year, SCCA regional club racing will go away.

Amature racing is what we are doing. There are less than 500 drivers in the world who make any kind of full time living off of this sport. If you question that, go look and find what they mean my a "well funded driver", means you pay for the ride and hope you get noticed. Weekends start at $10,000 plus any damage you do with Grand Am GS, want to be a pro race car driver?

Not an argument, just my 2 cents.

mitchntx
06-28-2006, 10:48 AM
Has anyone looked at what Speed charges to put your group on television? Networks pay NASCAR for the TV rights, SCCA and NASA PAY for the coverage. Look at Grand Am, it will cost you the competitor, $6000 per day if you want that "in-car camera" to show your sponsors on the dash and they only guarantee you like 2 30 second showings.



Don't think so big ... think local cable access.

Every cable system has local access for anyone (almost) to produce a show.

It would take some for thought and planning ... and some equipment ... but it could be done.

With Varner's mad editing skillz, he could poop out a 30 minute race program in 10 or 15 minutes. :roll:

gt40
06-28-2006, 11:22 AM
Don't think so big ... think local cable access.I know someone who has worked on two successful cable-access shows (one of which was picked up for broadcast in Canada.) He knows all the ins and outs of producing a cable-access show and has the contacts we need.

Equipment is going to be essentially free, although I don't know the details (i.e. where can we legally shoot using their equipment, who can use the equipment, etc...) but he does.

If you guys are really interested in shooting something for promotional use and for broadcase on local access, let me know and I'll arrange a meeting.

(And if the video is good enough, we can even approach the "pros" to see if we could turn this into a for-real TV show. My sister works in the TV industry here in Dallas and is always looking for a project to produce -- the trick is finding someone to sponsor the show.)

mitchntx
06-28-2006, 12:25 PM
I started my career in TV ... Channel 7 in Tyler to be exact. Used to cut spots on film!!!!

Moved to corporate TV because I got tired of starving to death. Not as sexy, but the pay, hours and stress is much better.

I've produced a bunch of music videos for local bands to use as demos. One progressive gospel band had a couple nice recorsings in the late 80s. To stay humble, I drag the 3/4" Master out and play it occasionally. :oops:

I also directed live broadcast of local high school football games for a few years. 3 cameras and a live switch all out of a converted Winnebego. Along the same lines, Ms. Texas Beuty Pageant, Talnet shows, basketball games ... even swim meets when Dana Vollmer was just another swimmer ....

And Eric has shown everyone how he can edit. So, I think we have all the "tools" and equipment in place ....

David Love AI27
06-28-2006, 12:39 PM
I have been a member of the Lions Club for over 10 years. If they were on board they would promote us for free. How about this (brief):

Raffle ride in race car.
Free admission with purchase of $10.00 or more.
Sell "our" 2005 video or updated video showing more about NASATX.

We could do one in Houston area (Lions district 2S-2) and one in Dallas/FT Worth. NASA would have to agree to forgo the admissions and ride time as stated above. Lions would pay for related costs such as tickets, video production (especially if we added something about lions clubs or lions charities) and fuel for car. Might even get Dan Pasterini as driver and bring in some old football fans. OR:

Some Lions Clubs do car shows that bring in 100s of people and TWS has the room for large show. Cresson could line the new course with cars and in either case NASATX or AICMC could man a booth to promote the series or group.

OH by the way, watch for news on the soldier packages for the TWS event... How do we approve the purchase of calling cards using AICMC funds?? 20 pkgs w/$20 card = $400... is $20 enough???? How do I set up a poll???

macstang
06-28-2006, 04:16 PM
Promoting a group like this is very hard. Race groups are very difficult to promote because they really require a dedicated car, not your modified street car. That alone will rule out military. I am a vet and I can tell you that we didn't have a place to work on a car much less the money (enlisted) to build and maintain one. You are not going to be able to even talk to any base commander, much less get him to give permission to use government property for a auto cross.

Mississippi SCCA uses Columbus Air Base, and Grenada Air NG Base every month for auto X.

Louisiana SCCA was using the air base in New Orleans before the hurricane also.

I used to race a dirt oval car sponsored by the Auto Crafts Shop on post. The auto crafts shop is a well equipped large auto repair center that soldiers can rent a bay at a time, as well as equipment. Most even have paint booths and alignment machines.
The craft shop got the money approved through Morale Welfare and Recreation fund. We also had a racing club with a dirt track on post and were in the process of building rental race cars when 9/11 hit.

My point is, while it may be difficult, it aint impossible. I have no physical access to active duty military sites because of location, but I do have access to all the lines of communication, regulations and such.

If I was near Ft Hood, I would promote NASA there. Right now, its difficult to promote anything that has a minimum 6 hour drive attached to it.

oz98cobra
06-28-2006, 05:02 PM
David, maybe I'm just poor at math, but it seems to me you are proposing to give away more than 2/3rds of all the AI/CMC funds that we collected - which may be why you are not getting many bites on this? If we have that much to give away, why did we collect that much in the first place?

I'm not adverse to the group supporting a good cause, but I do suggest we use the funds for the group for the purpose it was collected for, which is for OUR collective benefit - and that we raise the funds for your idea separately? If you spearhead it at TWS, I'll be the first to contribute!

oz98cobra
06-28-2006, 05:04 PM
If our group wants TV exposure, it would probably be easier to get than we think - the team that made the "Motorsport Ranch TV" show for that HD TV channel is looking for something else to do? We can give them action, and we can certainly give them drama! ;)

gt40
06-28-2006, 05:33 PM
If our group wants TV exposure, it would probably be easier to get than we think - the team that made the "Motorsport Ranch TV" show for that HD TV channel is looking for something else to do? We can give them action, and we can certainly give them drama! ;)I really think we're onto something here, guys.

With the mania for reality still alive and well, what could be better than a reality TV show based on grassroots racing good old american musclecars?

David Love AI27
06-28-2006, 05:52 PM
David, maybe I'm just poor at math, but it seems to me you are proposing to give away more than 2/3rds of all the AI/CMC funds that we collected - which may be why you are not getting many bites on this? If we have that much to give away, why did we collect that much in the first place?

I'm not adverse to the group supporting a good cause, but I do suggest we use the funds for the group for the purpose it was collected for, which is for OUR collective benefit - and that we raise the funds for your idea separately? If you spearhead it at TWS, I'll be the first to contribute!

It was suggested in an earlier post: that we send phone cards to our soldiers instead of an AICMC sponsered party at TWS... I'm just offering to coordinate if it is what the group wants to do it. The one suggestion was to go back to wings and more with a $500 minimum... thought $400 for our troops would be better served... I have had a few PM's in support. I don't care either way, however I cannot afford to personally front the phone cards and collect at TWS. Time is running out. I would like to go to Channel 3 in Bryan/College Station and get some press coverage three or four days prior... It has gotta be a group decision... SO??? :roll:

mitchntx
06-28-2006, 06:01 PM
David, I committed to buying a phone card and I'm in for it. I typically do something like this once a month anyway ...

But I was also unclear that you wanted to use the AI/CMC dues for this cause.

It's noble for sure, but 2 seperate things altogether IMHO. If folks can give, then let's give.

nasajj
07-10-2006, 07:47 PM
"Army bases can be a good source of participants. I say this although I am not near one (I work on a National Guard camp). The soldiers come back from war, and have a pocket full of money."

Here is a good idea---lets target a group of people who have given us the freedom to do what we do because they have "a pocket full of money". We fight every day for you to have the ability to do what you want to do, and you feel like you for some sick twisted reason have the right to target us because we have got compensated for putting our lives on hold at home and in jeopardy over there. Im so glad that I do not live in the state of Texas and have to put up with people like you. You should thank us not try to take our money.

marshall_mosty
07-10-2006, 09:34 PM
Wow,
I think jj took the post wayyyy out of context. I believe Jerry's comments were more along the lines of soldiers who "wanted" to participate "voluntarily" in a HPDE type of event. I believe the reference to “a pocket full of money” wasn’t meant to see if we “Texans” could take all of it. It was more of taking the sport, side show, whatever you want to call it to the people who “could” participate. Trying to drum up business in the bottom 33% of society won’t solicit very many takers for obvious reasons. Racing is expensive and therefore only a certain number have the “ability” to participate.

I take my freedom very seriously and I am very proud and thankful for the men and women who fight for it on a daily basis. I salute them. However, if “they” want to take a hit off the speed crack pipe, we will be here to let them.

Good day.

GlennCMC70
07-10-2006, 11:58 PM
yep, you took Jerry way wrong. he's an active duty service member (Army) and he should know as good as anyone.
and i too gave 10 years of service to the USMC. i see his comments the way he intended them, in a positive manner.

not a good way to introduce yourself to the group. feel free to try again.

macstang
07-11-2006, 12:09 AM
Yes, I have been one of those soldiers with that pocket full of money that I earned because OUR country decided it was in OUR best interest.

I dont know who you are jj but I hope you introduce yourself to me!!!!!

I am a full time soldier and I wish that someone had shown me a way to drive on a racetrack at an early age rather than do some of the things that I have done.

I want to educate soldiers (I do it every day) so that we dont lose so many soldiers every day to careless accidents that are caused because the soldiers want to recreate the adrenaline rush that they lived with for a year of their lives.

The situations that I was talking about refer to the figures reported by the U.S.Army safety center www.safety.army.mil.

I am not looking to dig into someones pockets for the sake of getting their money, but training that soldier in a way that the Army will not fund. Training that will forever improve the abilities of that soldier as a driver and perhaps save some soldier's life.


If you have any issues wuth me wantting to train these soldiers or giving them an arena where they can feed the speed addiction and learn at the same time please call 601 466 4767, my name is Jerry, and I would like to talk to you....

micah
07-12-2006, 04:59 AM
p.s. Jerry is also the one who built and team drives the #44 CMC U.S.Army car, show up at TWS jj and introduce yourself then you'll see for yourself.