Nationals Update - Liebbe

[Rob Liebbe]

Landed in Salt Lake, met up with Wayne and Wendy Kellam for a ride to the track. Checked in, unloaded, trying to get a dyno run, check the car for rules.

I'll try to update as much as possible, but no guarantee.

Thanks to all who helped and offered to help get me this far.

[AllZWay]

Good Luck Rob and everyone else. Try to post when possible.

[Rsmith350]

Best of luck sir!

"You tell 'em I'm coming! And Hell's coming with me you hear! Hell's coming with me!" - Tombstone

[Fbody383]

I'll try to update as much as possible, but no guarantee. Fine, be that way. You might as well just win the whole thing then.

That goes for you too, Kellam.

And Patterson.

[GlennCMC70]

Think twice about coming home w/out that Billett Toyo.
Stop at the state line and spend a minute or two.

[Chuck]

Best of luck Rob!!!

Kellam and Paterson as well!

Chuck
CMC#14

[BlueFirePony]

Go get it Rob!!
Best of luck to you and Mike and JK!!

[ShadowBolt]

"You tell 'em I'm coming!


When Ross (or Todd for that matter) says I'm coming racing all I can think of is,

"Otis......my Man"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_N0nC7X39Q

JJ

[Rob Liebbe]

Practice is going well. I figured out where all the turns are, learning where the edges of a Camaro are, trying to figure out fuel consumption, weights, and restrictor plates needed for this heavy ass car. Car drives fine, hell its got 4 wheels and a 5 - no wait - 6 speed, how hard can it be?

Having fun so far!!!!

[GlennCMC70]

3-4 gallons per 20 minute session. 20-25lbs.

Bank on 40 lbs for the long race.


Lap times?

[Rsmith350]

"Otis......my Man"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_N0nC7X39Q

JJ

:cry: No love

Cut any fuel lines lately? :wink:

[Rob Liebbe]

Caution – LONG post

My recap:

Wow – what a week, actually month and a half. From TWS in July to now has been quite a rollercoaster ride for me with regards to racing. I think we all recall TWS so I won’t go into that incident. However during and after that event my friends from the Texas region poured on the support and well-wishes so thick that it still boggles my mind. I had offers from almost everyone including labor, parts, tires, and even cars. I had 8 or 9 of you offer race cars to me to take to Nationals. It is unbelievable and very humbling. Thank you very much!!!!!! I will be returning parts to you as soon as they come back from Utah and in plenty of time for Eagle’s Canyon.

In the end, I opted to borrow Al Fernandez’s 4th Gen CMC2 Camaro for my run at Nationals. The biggest determining factor was logistics as he lives 15 minutes from me and I could take the car to my shop for necessary adjustments including mounting my seat in the car, downgrading the front brakes to CMC1 spec, general cleaning, general checking, applying the required stickers, etc. As it turns out, his car also runs and handles very well. Thanks Al, Lakewood Car Clinic (LS1 front brake components), Randy English (brake pads and wheels), Glenn Landrum (wheels and tires), David Donovan (pads and rotors), and Bob Sharp (fabrication).

In the midst of all this, I also managed to pick up a replacement car for my own. With Micheal Mosty’s generous help, I was able to purchase and pick up a 1994 Mustang GT running car to be built into the new #1 car for next season. It will be a CMC2 car. A lot of the parts from my old car can and will transfer to the new car. It won’t likely be ready for the start of the season, but I’ll work as fast as I can with a busy family and work schedule. Thanks Michael for the help.

Nationals –

Tuesday – I arrived by air and anxiously awaited Al and Todd to arrive with the car. We unloaded and I even got to get the car on the dyno. This run was with a 33 mm restrictor with the engine warm but not heat soaked. Al’s car has no working temperature gages so the temp was not really known. Power was approx 225 hp and 299 tq. I tried to sleep in Al’s RV but Todd snored severely, I get no sleep, I move to Kellam’s trailer for the rest of the nights.

Wednesday - I ran the first two practice sessions on old tires, just trying to learn the car and track, it was my first time with either. The track is very cool but the car seemed flat on power. I changed to a 34 mm restrictor and new tires for the next sessions. The speeds were picking up, the handling was good, and the power felt better. I decided to drop the car off at the dyno to get certified with the 34 mm restrictor. I came off the track and took it to the dyno almost immediately figuring they would have a line and get to it later. They got it right on and made runs while the car was still heat soaked. It even spit water out of the overflow on the last run. Power was about 226 and torque was about 299. I figured it was good and settled on the 34 mm plate. This was probably a crucial error as the engine management was likely pulling timing due to the heat soaked engine. I modified Al’s radiator deflector/air dam to be compliant with the rules no matter how they would be interpreted.

Thursday - More competitors showed up for the actual event so I could now get a better eye on the field. The only one not to run in practice and qual. was Dave Balingit who was busy running the big show so he was still somewhat unknown to me but has a reputation for being fast at Miller. My laptimes were good as car and driver were working well together and I set the pole. The first qualifying race had me running out front with Ginsberg, Balingit, and Owens not far behind. I finished first with a possible track record.

Friday – Warm up and qualifying went well with fast laps and still set the pole. By now I’m feeling pretty damn good about the week but trying to keep a level head for the racing that still lay ahead. The second qualifying race had me on the pole again, but now the rest of the field was picking up their game and closing in on my lap times. The start went well with CMC2 right ahead of us in a very tight battle. I was afraid that they were going to get tangled up and slowed up a bit to keep out of trouble. Balingit and Owens weren’t as concerned evidently and went by me entering turn 5. Dammit!!!! So I had to run them down, pass them and then pour on the coals to try to get a gap. I did manage to get away from them, but Balingit was in hot pursuit. Everything was going fine until we caught the back marker CMC2 car who was having handling issues but still had more straight line speed than I did. I couldn’t get around him and Balingit was gaining. I decided to draft the CMC2 car whenever possible to try to stay ahead of Balingit. This worked and I took the checker flag just in time for another win and a definite track record.

Saturday – A quick warm-up session verified the car and driver were still happy together so I came in early and set about getting the car ready for the race. I started getting a bit excited and nervous but finally just got in the car with the cool suit on, parked in the shade under the grandstands and waited for the big race to grid up. The fact that this was Nationals finally set in when “America the Beautiful” and the National Anthem were sung.

The Big Race – The start went well, but Balingit almost got me going into turn 1. I managed to stay in front of him but had to run flat out to keep him back there. At about 25 minutes into the race, I think both cars were starting to get a bit greasy. I know mine was. I tried to back off just a bit, but Balingit was never far behind and always on my mind. It went on like that for most of the rest of the race. I lost track of the time and as I came down the front straight I looked in the mirror to check on Balingit I forgot to look at the starter stand until the last minute. I thought I saw the white flag but wasn’t sure. I tried to look in my mirror for it but couldn’t see. Keep on down the front straight and suddenly I see Kent Owen up ahead. Turns out he had come from hot pits. I remember thinking that I was going to have to deal with him and Dave all at the same time in a couple of turns when all of a sudden I realized we were entering the braking zone. Unfortunately, Balingit remained focused and took advantage on the one turn were he had an advantage as we entered turn 1. He passed me on the inside. I knew he would try that eventually. I dropped in right behind him a decided I was going to pressure him as hard as possibly until the end not knowing this was the last lap. He was running on the ragged edge, I was running on the ragged edge, there couldn’t have been two feet between our two cars nose to tail, and my car started to overheat. Radiator water was coming out of the overflow tube. Crap!!! Step to the side where I could to get air to the radiator, but with no working temperature gauges I couldn’t monitor engine temperature. I decided to keep going but keep an eye on Balingit and the oil temperature gauge. I was pushing him very hard, trying to force a mistake and set up for a good run out of the last turn onto the front straight. I got a good launch out of the corner and started gaining on him a bit and then I saw them – double checker flag – I was a car or two lengths behind him as we crossed the finish line. I said a few choice words and beat my hands on the steering wheel. I just lost the National Championship in a hard fought battle. I attribute it to my lapse of concentration and worrying about Balingit on the previous lap. Good racing Dave – I really enjoyed it.

Celebration – This was very cool. I was disappointed in my finish, but happy for everyone for a good clean, fast and safe race. The champagne spray was very cool, I had never done that before. The trophies are very nice. I was really enjoying myself.

Tech – The short version is that I felt really bad when Balingit got DQ’d, I wish that hadn’t happened, he deserved that win. Al’s car came through tech ok and I was sent to the dyno.

Dyno – Al was nervous, but I thought everything was good. I had been on the dyno earlier in the week and was ok on power and 107 lbs over weight coming off track after the big race. I could be a little over on power. However, we had set for a long time, over an hour, and the car had cooled down. The first dyno runs made about 245-248 hp and 310-315 tq. Holy shit – what is going on? We decided the car was cool, so they let it warm up to the point of blowing water out of the overflow tube, but the water coming out was cold. Run it again and it made something like 251 hp and 319 tq. Everyone was baffled but that was the official result and I was DQ’d for too much horsepower. What a rollercoaster ride!!!!! The dyno pulled a car before me and one after me at the proper numbers so the dyno itself seemed ok. I turned in my trophy and hat to Al and decided to take a break from the track for a while.

Bonneville Salt Flats – thanks to Clifton we got to see the Bonneville Salt Flats. It was supposed to be an hour away, they were supposed to be open. It was two hours away and they closed just before we got there. We made Clifton lick salt off the road – I have video.

Saturday Night – Involved drinking, golf cart wheelies, and Jim Pantas asking what the hell I was doing to his golf cart. Thanks for the warning guys. Oh – and the worst “daquiritas” ever, good job Todd.

Sunday – packed up and reflected on the weeks events. I wanted to make sure in my mind that I didn’t have all that extra horsepower all week so I could still feel good about all the results. Reviewing my memory and several others’ observations the conclusion was that if I had 25 extra horsepower, I would have left Balingit far behind on the straight and kept up with the CMC2 cars better. This was not the case. So I’m happy in my mind with my performance, Al’s car on track, and the experience of the week. Additionally, Mylaps shows that I set a new class track record in each of the three races, I’m not sure how the third one stands if I got DQ’d. I got upgraded on my flight back, so I’m typing this in first class – the only way to arrive and drive.

I’d like to thank Al Fernandez, Todd Covini, Michael Mosty, David Donovan, Jeremiah Kellam, Wayne Kellam, Wendy, Kellam, Jeff Burch, Adam Ginsberg, The Plum Family, Dave Balingit, NASA, Miller Motorsports Park, my Texas Region Racing Family, and most importantly my Liebbe Family for all the support I got to make this possible. I could not have done it without you. Thank you very much. See y’all on the track soon.

Rob – DQ’d CMC Goober - Liebbe

[AllZWay]

Rob... You still had an outstanding showing...especially in a car you were not familiar with.

Great Job!!

[BlueFirePony]

Rob, awesome job and hope you keep the great memories forever!

I was friggin' shocked to hear you DQ'd for over power and with the actual #'s you provided I am in disbelief. While the speedcast video was out for a lot of the race, it did show you on a few straights including the drag race to the end (which was way cool) and you just did not appear to have any more power than Dave. Very strange.

[Fbody383]

Rob, great story and what else could you have done?

Still no mercy on track from me, but can't wait to hear some more stories.

Way to go!

[cjlmlml]

Good job Rob, now find the saboteur that messed with your car.

[Rob Liebbe]

I would like to describe the circumstances around my dyno disqualification at the Nationals. As you may be aware, I was driving a borrowed car that currently runs in CMC2 in the Texas Region. As such, I was going to have to restrict the motor and provide a dyno sheet for the event. Upon arriving on Tuesday, I was able to get on the dyno and ran with a 32 mm restrictor. The car does not have a working engine temperature gauge, so we warmed the car as best we could and made three pulls - 226.8 hp and 299 ft-lbs. I then ran two practice sessions with the 33 mm plate and the power felt flat. I decided to try a 34 mm plate in practice for the next two sessions to see how it felt. There seemed to be a bit more response so I decided to get another dyno run. I dropped it off and expected it to sit there a while before they could get to it. However, they got it right on while the engine was still heat soaked from the practice session. With no temp gauge I decided to consider it warmed up and run it. On the third pull it spewed a little coolant out indicated it was overheating. The pulls indicated 226 hp and 299 tq again. I thought it was good and that the 1 mm restrictor size change made a minimal difference and within dyno repeatability. I called it good and left the 34 mm plate in for the rest of the weekend.

After the main event, the cars sat in impound and tech for about an hour or an hour and a half before I got sent to the dyno. The car had difficulty starting with what seemed like a weak battery but did eventually start. I drove it to the dyno and shut it off. It was push started to get on the dyno and strapped down with a relatively cool engine. The first pull was near 245-250 hp and well over 300 tq. We were all blown away. Two more pulls confirmed similar numbers. I mentioned that the previous runs were done with a very hot engine so the car was allowed to warm up until coolant came out of the overflow. However, the water coming out was reported to be cold and not hot. A run was made and the numbers were high again at about 250 hp and 308 tq. 24 hp and 9 ft-lbs higher than before. Nobody could figure out why.

The dyno seemed right as Kellam's Mustang ran within minutes before and a Miata ran minutes after my runs and their numbers were correct.

In my mind, the leading reason is the engine heat soak on the first dyno run was pulling timing and therefore power out of the motor. The post race runs did not have the same kind of heat soak. Other theories include bad temperature sensor, air pockets in the engine/coolant, the motor is getting ready to blow up.

Whatever the reason, the car made too much power on the dyno when tested and got disqualified. It was not my intention to have excessive horsepower, I did what I thought were the right procedures before the race and I apologize for any cloud this may put on NASA, CMC, or myself.

One lesson that I will take away at this time is that while you can race without a working temperature gauge, you need to have one for dyno testing to help ensure repeatable runs if possible.

Sincerely,

Rob – DQ’d CMC Goober - Liebbe

:oops:

[mitchntx]

A restrictor plate does indeed hurt throttle response. Mashing the loud pedal coming off a turn doesn't do much. Kind of creates a scenario where a "dive bomb" is necessary ... :shock:

If the battery was dead or close to dead, its likely or possible that the ECM reset to default settings once 12V was restored.

What you originally dynoed at was at a "learned" state, assuming the battery hadn't been disconnected.

So it is very possible that the "learned" state had all kinds of timing and fuel mapped out and a reset would have restored default timing fuel.

That's one scenario.

[BryanL]

One lesson that I will take away at this time is that while you can race without a working temperature gauge, you need to have one for dyno testing to help ensure repeatable runs if possible.

Sincerely,

Rob – DQ’d CMC Goober - Liebbe

:oops:

Great writeup and great job at Nationals. Very impressive outing in a car that you had never driven. Kudos to Al and everyone that helped out as you, JK, and MP represented Texas well.

Now why would the National Director not have a temp gauge so that he can follow the dyno procedure? :o Heck, that first pull you would have been illegal in CMC2 even with a 34 mm restrictor which would make anyone wonder about his numbers unrestricted.

[GlennCMC70]

Now why would the National Director not have a temp gauge so that he can follow the dyno procedure? :o Heck, that first pull you would have been illegal in CMC2 even with a 34 mm restrictor which would make anyone wonder about his numbers unrestricted.

250 is legal in CMC2. I think my car makes about the same numbers w/ the same size plate. I'm 280/320 uncorked. Al's car is fine.
There are 2 other CMC/CMC2 cars I know of that make the same numbers as mine, restricted or not.

[Rob Liebbe]

A restrictor plate does indeed hurt throttle response. Mashing the loud pedal coming off a turn doesn't do much. Kind of creates a scenario where a "dive bomb" is necessary ... :shock:

If the battery was dead or close to dead, its likely or possible that the ECM reset to default settings once 12V was restored.

What you originally dynoed at was at a "learned" state, assuming the battery hadn't been disconnected.

So it is very possible that the "learned" state had all kinds of timing and fuel mapped out and a reset would have restored default timing fuel.

That's one scenario.

If the battery was disconnected via the cutoff switch - let's say during series tech at Nationals to determine if the brake lights turned off when the switch was turned off (yeah I have no idea what that was about) - How much run time does the ECM need to relearn? The inspection happened sometime on Thursday so the ECM had three track sessions on Friday and two on Saturday to relearn. Also, would the defaults go to something with the opportunity for more power?

I'm trying to figure this out for the benefit of those who may be in this situation some day.

As far as temp gauges, I believe Al did install an aftermarket guage in the car, but had trouble with it and hadn't resolved the problem before I picked it up.

Darn Chevys.

[GlennCMC70]

A restrictor plate does indeed hurt throttle response. Mashing the loud pedal coming off a turn doesn't do much. Kind of creates a scenario where a "dive bomb" is necessary ... :shock:

If the battery was dead or close to dead, its likely or possible that the ECM reset to default settings once 12V was restored.

What you originally dynoed at was at a "learned" state, assuming the battery hadn't been disconnected.

So it is very possible that the "learned" state had all kinds of timing and fuel mapped out and a reset would have restored default timing fuel.

That's one scenario.

If the battery was disconnected via the cutoff switch - let's say during series tech at Nationals to determine if the brake lights turned off when the switch was turned off (yeah I have no idea what that was about) - How much run time does the ECM need to relearn? The inspection happened sometime on Thursday so the ECM had three track sessions on Friday and two on Saturday to relearn. Also, would the defaults go to something with the opportunity for more power?

I'm trying to figure this out for the benefit of those who may be in this situation some day.

As far as temp gauges, I believe Al did install an aftermarket guage in the car, but had trouble with it and hadn't resolved the problem before I picked it up.

Darn Chevys.

Al started having issues this year w/ the temp guage. He called me when his replacement started doing the same thing. We talked about a few fix's but I'm not sure why its doing what it is.
Settle down guys and land your black helecopters.

[mitchntx]

A restrictor plate does indeed hurt throttle response. Mashing the loud pedal coming off a turn doesn't do much. Kind of creates a scenario where a "dive bomb" is necessary ... :shock:

If the battery was dead or close to dead, its likely or possible that the ECM reset to default settings once 12V was restored.

What you originally dynoed at was at a "learned" state, assuming the battery hadn't been disconnected.

So it is very possible that the "learned" state had all kinds of timing and fuel mapped out and a reset would have restored default timing fuel.

That's one scenario.

If the battery was disconnected via the cutoff switch - let's say during series tech at Nationals to determine if the brake lights turned off when the switch was turned off (yeah I have no idea what that was about) - How much run time does the ECM need to relearn? The inspection happened sometime on Thursday so the ECM had three track sessions on Friday and two on Saturday to relearn. Also, would the defaults go to something with the opportunity for more power?

I'm trying to figure this out for the benefit of those who may be in this situation some day.

As far as temp gauges, I believe Al did install an aftermarket guage in the car, but had trouble with it and hadn't resolved the problem before I picked it up.

Darn Chevys.

Remember, the cutoff switch only needs to make the car die and all power be removed from the system. So it's possible to disable the car's ability to run and still maintain 12V to the ECM.

God only knows how Al's car is wired. It's a California car and a Tony G creation.

It shouldn't take long for the ECM to "relearn", though. But it won't relearn much idling around on a dyno.

Let's say Al's motor was indeed tired and had some slight piston slap or even bearing knock. Not enough to hear or hurt performance, but for the sensors to pick up and pull timing.

A reset could, in theory, advance timing and add more fuel at least for a short period of time.

Some unknowns are ...

Is Al's a speed density car (93 only)? an OBD1 (94 - 95) car or an OBD2? The OBD2s (96+) are probably the most susceptible with LSx cars being even more "sophisticated".

In theory, you could run some 85 octane through an OBD2 car to create detonation and pull timing. Take it to the dyno and do the cert.

Fill'er up with 93. Then by the the drop of the first green flag race on Saturday, the ECM would have added back all the timing and fuel.

[BryanL]

Now why would the National Director not have a temp gauge so that he can follow the dyno procedure? :o Heck, that first pull you would have been illegal in CMC2 even with a 34 mm restrictor which would make anyone wonder about his numbers unrestricted.

250 is legal in CMC2. I think my car makes about the same numbers w/ the same size plate. I'm 280/320 uncorked. Al's car is fine.
There are 2 other CMC/CMC2 cars I know of that make the same numbers as mine, restricted or not.

319 tq isn't CMC2 legal on the pull after they heated it up nor is 310-315 legal on the first pulls. And this is with a 34 mm plate. Though I don't know if Al runs a plate in 2 or not.
I'm with Liebbe on trying to figure out what happened so it doesn't happen to another person in the future.

[Alien]

On that note I propose we all go back to carbs :D

Despite the end result, great job on Nats, Rob! Doing that with an unknown car (to you) is really impressive.

[michaelmosty]

Now why would the National Director not have a temp gauge so that he can follow the dyno procedure? :o Heck, that first pull you would have been illegal in CMC2 even with a 34 mm restrictor which would make anyone wonder about his numbers unrestricted.

250 is legal in CMC2. I think my car makes about the same numbers w/ the same size plate. I'm 280/320 uncorked. Al's car is fine.
There are 2 other CMC/CMC2 cars I know of that make the same numbers as mine, restricted or not.

319 tq isn't CMC2 legal on the pull after they heated it up nor is 310-315 legal on the first pulls. And this is with a 34 mm plate. Though I don't know if Al runs a plate in 2 or not.
I'm with Liebbe on trying to figure out what happened so it doesn't happen to another person in the future.
IIRC, Al said he doesn't run a plate in CMC2. The fact that it made 319 tq w/ a 34 mm plate says something wacky is going on in the motor.

[GlennCMC70]

Now why would the National Director not have a temp gauge so that he can follow the dyno procedure? :o Heck, that first pull you would have been illegal in CMC2 even with a 34 mm restrictor which would make anyone wonder about his numbers unrestricted.

250 is legal in CMC2. I think my car makes about the same numbers w/ the same size plate. I'm 280/320 uncorked. Al's car is fine.
There are 2 other CMC/CMC2 cars I know of that make the same numbers as mine, restricted or not.

319 tq isn't CMC2 legal on the pull after they heated it up nor is 310-315 legal on the first pulls. And this is with a 34 mm plate. Though I don't know if Al runs a plate in 2 or not.
I'm with Liebbe on trying to figure out what happened so it doesn't happen to another person in the future.

I'm not seeing anything over the 308tq number. I must be missing something.
Al does not run a plate for 2, or at least thats what he told me.
I can look at the dyno sheets.

I have asked Al to not touch the car and put it on a dyno and see what happens.
I'm w/ everyone about the "not happen to anyone else". I got hosed on a dyno that turned out to have a major issue. The more pulls you made, the lower the numbers got until it cooled off. I made cert pulls on it my first year and kept adding plates w/ larger and larger holes. Finally stopped at a 2 hole 37mm. Thought it was strange I had a much larger plate than everyone else. Post season, I pop way over. 6 months later MER bought the dyno and found the brakes were dragging. They had miatas dropping 3-5 hp per pull till they let it sit for an hour or so. First pull, numbers are normal, each one after, the numbers would drop. The brakes heated and expanded and drug more causing more expansion causing more drag.
I poped over by 5hp. I still finished 5th in points that year.

[GlennCMC70]

Now why would the National Director not have a temp gauge so that he can follow the dyno procedure? :o Heck, that first pull you would have been illegal in CMC2 even with a 34 mm restrictor which would make anyone wonder about his numbers unrestricted.

250 is legal in CMC2. I think my car makes about the same numbers w/ the same size plate. I'm 280/320 uncorked. Al's car is fine.
There are 2 other CMC/CMC2 cars I know of that make the same numbers as mine, restricted or not.

319 tq isn't CMC2 legal on the pull after they heated it up nor is 310-315 legal on the first pulls. And this is with a 34 mm plate. Though I don't know if Al runs a plate in 2 or not.
I'm with Liebbe on trying to figure out what happened so it doesn't happen to another person in the future.
IIRC, Al said he doesn't run a plate in CMC2. The fact that it made 319 tq w/ a 34 mm plate says something wacky is going on in the motor.

MM saw it, so I guess its true. My car w/ no plate makes 320tq. Something is wierd here.

[BryanL]

Look on previous page of robs long post under dyno

[AllZWay]

I'm with Liebbe on trying to figure out what happened so it doesn't happen to another person in the future.

Yep.. to me this is very scary that you can pass across the exact same dyno a few days apart and have such a wide range of numbers. Something just isn't right with the car, the dyno, or something else.

[Fbody383]

Remember, the cutoff switch only needs to make the car die and all power be removed from the system. So it's possible to disable the car's ability to run and still maintain 12V to the ECM.


4.8 Master Switch
An electrical master switch is required. The installation of the electrical master switch must meet therequirements listed in section 15.8 of the CCR.


15.8 Master Switch
An electrical master switch is recommended on all cars, and required on some, as listed in the class rules. It shall be mounted so that it is easily accessible from the outside. If mounted outside the cockpit, it should be mounted in an area where it is least likely to be damage (e.g. cowling near wipers). The switch shall shut off the motor and cut all power
except to the on-board fire system and any other life support / medical device. The switch location must be clearly marked. Any marked switch must function as per this rule, or the indication decal must be removed.

My emphasis; I didn't know the ECM controlled the on-board fire system... just sayin'.

[mitchntx]

Hit the switch on mine and the car dies. Haven't seen anyone with a meter in tech ... yet.

But the potential to GAIN HP/TQ is there when the ECM is reset. So to be 100% compliant with a dyno cert, 12V should remain at the ECM.

So in this case, following the rules could potentially violate the rules.

What to do, what to do ... just sayin'

[Fbody383]

But the potential to GAIN HP/TQ is there when the ECM is reset. So to be 100% compliant with a dyno cert, 12V should remain at the ECM. Guess I shouldn't pull the ECM to do any welding between dynos then.

Maybe a good add for the silly season; I stand informed by the LAW.

[GlennCMC70]

My PCM IGN circuits are at 0v with the master in OFF. My PCM BAT circuits are at 0v w/ the master in OFF.
I never turn mine off unless I'm getting tested in tech or I need to remove power while working on the car.
The PCM will relearn pretty quick. I wouldnt want someone to switch it off just before a dyno. But more than likely a single 20 minute session will learn the PCM back.
You guys are fretting over nothing.

[Rob Liebbe]

I don't know if we are fretting over nothing just yet. I also don't recall if I mentioned it yet, but Al's car would not restart after the race. It acted like a dead battery with the solenoid clicking away. It did start once and I idled it over to the dyno staging area then cut it off again. Battery voltage was checked at 12v but very well could have been lower when trying to crank. If that reset the pcm, the power output may have been affected. The car was push started and driven 20 ft to the dyno where it immediately pulled over the limit. There was no 20 minute session to relearn. Subsequent starts on the dyno requires jump starting with a charger.

Just more food for thought.

[Al Fernandez]

I have no clue guys. Its a 93 setup and its never made that much torque. I run it without any plates in 2 at something like 262/300. For some dumb reason I havent gotten the temp gauge to work so we didnt know the temp. When it pulled so high we got a tire pressure gauge and checked the tires (31). We got a temp gun and shot the radiator tank (130). We fired up the car and let it run for a while. At about 160 on the tank cold water started coming out of the overflow. My return hose has a metal section on it and it read 210 or so with the gun. We made another pull or two and it was about the same so I called it a DQ. It started today when I tried to get it out of the trailer.

Rob, did you check voltage at the battery when it was running on the dyno?

[mitchntx]

Which chip did you have in it, Al?

Those speed density, TPI hybrid LT1s ought to be outlawed.

I would pick Costas brain about potential loss of power scenarios being as its basically a 3G TPI computer.

[ShadowBolt]

Jay and I turn off the master every time we get out of the car. I want it to start when it's time to go so we got in the habit of turning it off (incase there is some kind of drain on the battery) when we started racing. The car is in the garage right now and the master is off. Funny how we all treat the master switch different.


JJ

[Rob Liebbe]

Rob, did you check voltage at the battery when it was running on the dyno?

On the dyno with the engine off the battery voltage was 12 v. With the engine at idle it was 13 v. If you reved the engine up to 2,000 or 3,000 rpm, the voltage actually dropped to 12.5 v. Strange to say the least. Better put the trickle charger on it.

Jerry, I do the same thing with my Mustang. I don't think the Mustangs have the same sensitivity/issue with the ECM resetting like some Camaros might have. At least I never heard of it.

Next time everyone goes to the dyno would be a good opportunity for experimentation. Make runs as normal, then disconnect the battery for a few moments and make another set of runs. See if anything changes.

[AllZWay]

Jay and I turn off the master every time we get out of the car. I want it to start when it's time to go so we got in the habit of turning it off (incase there is some kind of drain on the battery) when we started racing. The car is in the garage right now and the master is off. Funny how we all treat the master switch different.


JJ

I generally turn my master switch on on Saturday and leave it on all day...then kill it for overnight...then turn it on again on Sunday and leave it on all day.

I certainly would not think any massive swing in hp/tq would occur just by ressetting the PCM... maybe some loss since you would be running in a closed loop, but probably not a gain.

[Fbody383]

My PCM IGN circuits are at 0v with the master in OFF. My PCM BAT circuits are at 0v w/ the master in OFF. That's how I read the rule.


You guys are fretting over nothing.Not fretting; I don't worry that there's any performance advantage. Just example of rule vs. implementation.

Mine stays on all the time except for a tech check.

[cobra132]

Maybe the motor is about to let go???

[Rob Liebbe]

Maybe the motor is about to let go???

Hope not.

[Al Fernandez]

If the voltage dropped as it revved up wouldnt that indicate a bad alternator? Better add that to the list of things to do this weekend :lol:

FYI battery is grounded to the car. The positive side goes through the main switch and then to everything else in the car. When its off the battery is completely isolated unless something has cut into the wire between the two. I never throw that switch except during the annual.

[David Love AI27]

If the voltage dropped as it revved up wouldnt that indicate a bad alternator?

Volt drop at higher revs indicates that the brushes my be worn and "floating" off of the armature... Gimme the details on your car or specifically the alternator and I'll see if I can find brushes... OR get me the alt and I will tear it down and see what it needs...

[BryanL]

You guys are fretting over nothing.

Are you kidding me? It cost Liebbe the nationals win! I'm thinking you would fret over nationals.
The car pulled 319 with a 34 plate and 20 more hp than it did previously

"I dunno she picked up 2 tenths in the last eighth when she done blowed up"

[GlennCMC70]

I dont know how you guys sleep at night.

My comment was that Al didnt do anything illegal ON PURPOSE.
As for why the car made the numbers is beyond me. I'm intrested to find out as well. But we will not know until he puts it back on the dyno.

If a car lost its hood during a race and came up light post race on the scales, the car is DQ'ed. Why did the hood come off? Not sure, dont care.
So the only difference w/ that and Al's car's dyno results is we know where the weight went, we dont know where the hp/tq (primarily the TQ)came from. The DQ will not change if Al's car makes legal power when he re-check's it. We hope to find out why it made that power. We hope it repeats itself. I, and I'm sure Al and most all of you, have never seen this type of thing happen. I think that Rob has a pretty good idea. Its likely heat related. W/ no working temp guage, it will be hard to duplicate.

I wonder if a head gasket failure that allowed water to be sprayed into the cylinder while running would bump tq like that? The HPis pretty close for the plate size, but the tq is off the charts.

Is there any chance the car made a dyno pull in the wrong gear?

[BlueFirePony]

Is there any chance the car made a dyno pull in the wrong gear?
Now that is something to think about....its a six speed right? so the pull would have been in 5th, but if it was in 4th or even 3rd and add that to the ECM working to re-learn with an engine that was maybe reading the fuel/air wrong?

I had a whacky dyno at Lewisville a couple years ago....3rd gear pull after the spanish oak was reset - did not have time to relearn. Did not get a printout but IIRC the torque numbers were like 350 vs 330 that the car has run on dyno's since. I think the HP was roughly the same...

[Casey_SS]

4th is the 1:1 gear in an f-body tranny.....actually after typing that, I have to caveat it - I'm confident that's the case for 3rd gen T5s and 94-02 T56s but IIRC the 93s had slightly lower ratios and I 'think' Al's car is a 93. Is it just 1st gear that's lower or all of them?? I'm pretty sure 4th was always 1:1 but I could be wrong....

I don't have much of a stake in this and have tried to stay out of it but I read a post by the dyno operator on the AI national forum stating that they removed the canopy a little early causing the dyno temp sensor to read artificially high (direct sunlight) and that subsequent high readings were because of this. What wasn't clear was when the canopy was removed....it sounded like it was just before the AI cars came through but I wasn't there. Could that have been a factor in Rob's case?

Call me optimistic but I have a hard hard time believing Al or Rob were anything but victims of circumstance in this, which really sucks.
Regardless of the scoreboard, hats off to Rob for a hell of a drive! Trophy or not, I'm tickled to be jumping into a talent pool this deep and hope to be in the same league when I grow up :lol:

We'll surely have other problems next year but I doubt we'll see this one again. There's obviously lots of behind the scenes work going on to figure out the issue and prevent it from happening again. Looking forward to the final assessment....

[GlennCMC70]

All T-56's are 1:1 in 4th.
I thought T-5 were as well.

[michaelmosty]

The dyno pulls were definitely in 4th gear, we thought the same about it possibly being in 3rd. The canopy was up and the dyno seemed to be operating correctly. Jeremiah did his verification run right before and his numbers were correct. There was also a Miata that ran right after and we verified that his numbers were correct.

[BryanL]

I don't sleep as I'm prepping for the baby.

AI race was on Sunday when they were starting teardown of the canopy and CMC was on Saturday.

Both HP and TQ numbers for the first pull was over 20 then once they heated up the motor it went to only 10-15 over. So the car was somewhat consistent in the power it made. No working temp gauge doesn't help.

I hope Al gets the car to a dyno with only getting a temp gauge working. Would like to see a first pull at 140-150 then the rest at the required temps. Then maybe heat soak it good and see what happens.

Does the alternator stop charging at WOT or something like that? Or am I just thinking about outboard motors? If the battery or alt were weak I would think it would be more susceptible to a lower dyno number.

Even if the computer reset and the temp was a little lower I'm surprised how high it pulled with a 34 plate.

[GlennCMC70]

Yep, from my understanding the canopy was up Sat for the CMC post race pulls. So the sun on the weather station for the dyno is not a factor.

Nothing temp wise or anything of the kind (reset ECM) will explain the 319 tq. In fact, I would also like to see unrestricted pulls of that motor.

I know Al is not going to be available due to work for a week or so, then we have ECR. It could be a month or better before we see any possible testing from him if he does it at all.

[Al Fernandez]

Like I said, the motor has never made that much torque, even uncorked. I run it wide open for cmc2 at something like 262/301. I have the dyno info in the trailer, we can look at it at ECR. I suspect a big kaboom moment :lol:

[Rob Liebbe]

Like I said, the motor has never made that much torque, even uncorked. I run it wide open for cmc2 at something like 262/301. I have the dyno info in the trailer, we can look at it at ECR. I suspect a big kaboom moment :lol:

Sorry I won't be at ECR to see it. I'm headed to your house now to reset the car to 2 specs.