More nationals info

[Al Fernandez]

Looks like Patterson broke a valve spring. They're wrenching on it now. Kellam is sandbagging his times and Liebbe is coming up to speed nicely. No other drama yet, but tomorrow is another day.

[Al Fernandez]

Warmup ongoing. Patterson made it out, looked like it was a little slow. Dean Martin blew up big.

[Fbody383]

Thanks Al, keep them coming.

Ginsberg updating HERE. (http://twitter.com/shrackracing)

[BryanL]

Good link Francis.

Liebbe on pole of first qualifier by almost 2 seconds with a 2:16.9!!

Kellam is 2nd behind by .018

Where is a link to the next several days schedule?

[mitchntx]

http://www.nasaproracing.com/racing/national/Sched_Nationals_2010.pdf

[Fbody383]

Go Texicans!

What's the word on Patterson?

[Alien]

Bring the PAH, boys!

(When Rob gets back, Mitch might just have to sell him a 4th gen!)

[rleng1]

Buy stock in LAW Motorsports. Everyone will want a 4th gen now.

[Al Fernandez]

1st qualifying session is done...
Liebbe set a scorching pole time in CMC: 2:16.9...just a bit over a second better than the track record. Its nice and cool this morning, so that will likely slip during the race session later.

In CMC2, Nick Steel is on pole with a 2:14.205. Our man Kellam is right behind him with a 2:14.223, and Dave Brown is next with a 2:14.474!

Patterson is down a bit on the grid, 6th or so if I remember right, but his in the middle of a large group that is very very close on times. AI is going to be a killer race!

[BryanL]

If Rob doesn't have his stang ready next year he will be my hired gun.

Maybe he is the new Stig!

[ShadowBolt]

Any way to listen to the races?


JJ

[BryanL]

Thanks for link Mitch-I don't frequent the nat site. So I went to check out nats info.

There is a link for Live timing and scoring of course it doesn't work and shows 2009 Results. Hopefully they will get that updated but now the forum doesn't work at all for me.

[GlennCMC70]

Live T&S is only for the big show Saturday.

Mike's motor is fine, or so it seems. He's having issues w/ his rear set-up. Getting thos resolved will net better lap times. He told me he was only about 1.5 seconds off pole.

JK, just hang onto Nick's bumper and save all your moves for the big show Sat.

JK - lets chat sometime, I know what works on Nick.

[mitchntx]

Bring the PAH, boys!

(When Rob gets back, Mitch might just have to sell him a 4th gen!)


Buy stock in LAW Motorsports. Everyone will want a 4th gen now.

I told him once he left the dark side, his eyes would be opened to the evil he's been associating himself with for years.

PAH!

[mitchntx]

JK - lets chat sometime, I know what works on Nick.

Must ... not ...... post ......... must .......... refrain ...............


http://nerdarama.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/kahn-captain-kirk-star-trek.jpg

KKKKAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHNNNNNNNNNNN!

[Fbody383]

JK, just hang onto Nick's bumper and save all your moves for the big show Sat.

Yeah Baby! Texas Duece!

Keep it up guys.

[Al Fernandez]

First day is done with remarkably little drama. Liebbe won from the pole in CMC1, posting a fastest lap just shy of Glenn's record. Adam got a bad start but clawed up to second. Balingit started last due to having missed qual but fought up to 3rd.

In the duece Nick pulled a bit of a lead as Kellam and Brown fought every single corner. Nick came in first, with Brown second and Kellam third...except Jeremiah was repositioned to last for attempting a pass and racing through a yellow.

Dont have AI results right now...

[AllZWay]

Thanks for the updates....

[Fbody383]

Fri CMC/Duece qual done...

Liebbe is not allowed to race a 4th gen when he comes home.

JK nice qual; did you guys find something on the car?

How's Patterson?

[BryanL]

Give us a little better info. if you have it Francis. I was busy and didn't get to follow it live.
I'm guessing Liebbe took the pole and maybe JK too?

[Fbody383]

Liebbe is not allowed to race a 4th gen when he comes home.

Last I saw:

Liebbe on pole by about 1 sec

Kellam on pole by about 1.25 sec

Patterson qual 4th down about 4 sec

I need a disclaimer... from the Live T/S link... use at your own discretion.

From Ginsberg's Tweet:
Liebbe P1 (2:16.9), Owens P2 (2:18.2), Ginsberg P3 (2:18.7).

He picked up 1 sec after taking the wing off. Hey Mosty, time to put your wing back on.

[Al Fernandez]

Nothing like a little drama...looks like a Texas style inverted start for this afternoon's qual race.

Jeremiah's qual time was thrown out due to a technical infraction. His subframe connectors are connected to each other by a tube spanning the center of the car. This tube also has a piece of steel strip going around the driveshaft, so it is a valid driveshaft loop...unfortunately it violates the rule stipulating subframe connectors may not span across the floor from side to side. It really bums me out because I am pretty sure that car has been like that for a long time and it was not caught before. I know we specifically did subframe connectors as a tech item in Tx recently because we had some discussions around Mosty's car having seat reinforcements tied into the subframes on both passenger and driver side. That really sucks.

A short while later, both Nick Steel and Dave Brown showed up late to the driver meeting...so both of their qualifying times were thrown out as well. That makes three drivers so far this weekend that have lost a qual time for missing or being late to a meeting. :?

Liebbe is scorching the track, but Ginsberg and Balingit are right there too. Should make for another great race if Adam can figure out how to not botch the start :lol:

Not sure about Patterson's qual time, havent seen those yet.

[Wirtz]

Like has been said; thanks for the updates!

If I'm seeing it right, the CMC / Deuce Qually race is at 2:30 today. The AI Qually race is after it at 3:15.

For me it seems like the live TS link is working ok.

Go get em Texas boys.

[Fbody383]

If I'm seeing it right, the CMC / Deuce Qually race is at 2:30 today.

Yeah it is... Go Texas.

[GlennCMC70]

Well it goes to show that Nationals is a whole differnt game. Locally we cant be expected to catch everything. I know sub's were a tech item sometime over the last year or so, but was his car tech'ed then? Nats tech is every very good. I have never been flagged at Nat's tech, but its been close more than once.

Its good to see our National director setting the tone even w/ his own folks. I also like the high standard that has been set and maintained over the 5 years of National events.

Mike had an electrical issue mid race yesterday. It was easily resolved post race. The suspension issue is another matter. Write it off to growing pains involved w/ testing parts for a vendor. It could get resolved, but not until Saturday (AI day off).

I hate to see JK having all this stuff happen to him. But it does show that Nats is about the details as much as on track performance.
Keep your head up JK, and keep plugging away. Win it, and all this will add to it and it will be that much sweeter.

Rob - dont change a thing. Watch Dave, he is fast there.

[Wirtz]

well crap - now all of a sudden the live link is not working for me. Anyone got it running?

It worked for me 30 minutes ago...

[Fbody383]

Live T/S... crashed and burned... i got nothing. <<crap>>


AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!

[Wirtz]

Someone call Al and make he do play by play on speaker phone...

Or maybe Adam can 'tweet' while racing.

[Alien]

Jeremiah's qual time was thrown out due to a technical infraction.

What goes on from there? Does he have to fix it before the big race or did he have to fix it before todays qual?

On the bright side, at least it was caught early so that if he has to fix it he has some time. Would really suck to win the whole thing, then discover the infraction and have the results thrown out.

[GlennCMC70]

JK and RL both won. Just got a text from Al.

Go Texas! 8)

AI still to come.

[GlennCMC70]

Rob Liebbe
Dave Balingit
Adam Ginsberg


Jeremiah Kellam
Nick Steel
Dave Brown

Keep that fire lit JK!

[BryanL]

Awesome. I guess JK was sandbagging on Thursday.

Now if all you bozo's would have been working on Friday afternoon the link wouldn't have crashed.

Here is mylaps link.

http://www.mylaps.com/results/showevent.jsp?id=594998

[Fbody383]

Yeah BABY!

Way to go Rob!

JK, I figured you would get buckled down and get it done.

Mike, quit sandbaggin. 8)

Bring home the gold...

[Wirtz]

Good deal.

Straight up standing start for the main race tomorrow?

[GlennCMC70]

All CMC races at Nat's are standing starts.

[BryanL]

Mike got 5th according to mylaps. CMC race still isn't up on mylaps.

Text from Mosty said Tommy has pole.

[GlennCMC70]

I was told that for yesterday Tommy went from 15th to 2nd.

He may just win it.

[GlennCMC70]

Rob set new CMC track record.
2:17.765
Good job Rob.

[Al Fernandez]

Man it killed me to crawl under Jermiah's car and look at what Tech (none other than Alan Blaine) was pointing out. Jeremiah and Wayne made repairs so he was able to run the last qual race...and run he did! Maybe it was all the anger, but he drove a hell of a race taking the win by a substantial margin. Nick Steel came in 2nd, and Dave Brown 3rd.

Liebbe and Balingit battled for several laps with Dave up front until Rob made a clean pass. Dave never fell back more than a couple of car lengths though, and a few times he was right on Rob's tail. Adam came in 3rd just ahead of Kent. Those two guys ran a great race. In post race tech James Ray got DQd for a similar infraction to Kellam: illegal chassis stiffening. In this case the door bar was welded to the door jamb.

Grid for the big show in CMC:
CMC1
Liebbe
Balingit
Ginsberg
Sjoblom
Owens
Incidental Contact
Lariviere

CMC2:
Steel
Brown
Kellam
Burnett
Plum
Ray

AI preliminary top 5:
Schlender
Macmillan
Winkler
Murray
Patterson

We have a special treat...the boys did F1 style interviews for GoRacingTV. GoRacingTV is doing some coverage of the championships. They just showed up today, but are planning to do some cool things. The interviews are allegedly going to air tonight at 9pm central time:

http://www.goracingtv.com/09/16/2010/goracingtv-to-broadcast-daily-news-show-from-the-5th-annual-nasa-championships-news-coverage-is-courtesy-of-honda-hpd/

[GlennCMC70]

I hate you guys....
Off to sulk.......... :cry:

[AllZWay]

What is the schedule for the big races?

[GlennCMC70]

CMC/CMC2 tomorrow 10:45 Mountain/11:45 Central.

AI Sunday 2:10 Mountain/3:10 Central.

[GlennCMC70]

We have a special treat...the boys did F1 style interviews for GoRacingTV. GoRacingTV is doing some coverage of the championships. They just showed up today, but are planning to do some cool things. The interviews are allegedly going to air tonight at 9pm central time:

http://www.goracingtv.com/09/16/2010/goracingtv-to-broadcast-daily-news-show-from-the-5th-annual-nasa-championships-news-coverage-is-courtesy-of-honda-hpd/


Anyone getting any of this? I see nothing.

[Fbody383]

We have a special treat...the boys did F1 style interviews for GoRacingTV. So, what... two pitchers of fluid replacement, $10,000 watches and weird accents?



Anyone getting any of this? I see nothing.
Nope, nuthin.

[ShadowBolt]

I can't wait to hear where Rob says he would have finished in a Fox Mustang.
I can see weight reduction on the way for us poor Stang pilots.



JJ

[Fbody383]

I can see weight reduction on the way for us poor Stang pilots. I think Dave and Adam messed that up for you. Besides, your car sounds 50lbs better than mine alreadly.

[GlennCMC70]

I can't wait to hear where Rob says he would have finished in a Fox Mustang.
I can see weight reduction on the way for us poor Stang pilots.



JJ

Dont bet on it. Be glad if it doesnt go up.

[ShadowBolt]

I can see weight reduction on the way for us poor Stang pilots. I think Dave and Adam messed that up for you. Besides, your car sounds 50lbs better than mine alreadly.


I started my car for the first time since Hallett tonight.
Finally finished the rebuild.
JJ

[GlennCMC70]

I can't wait to hear where Rob says he would have finished in a Fox Mustang.
I can see weight reduction on the way for us poor Stang pilots.



JJ

It's in every drivers nature to assume thier platform is at a disadvantage.

But I think the results would be the same.

Class CMC
4th gen 1 5x Rob Liebbe 9 21:35.148 2:17.765 3 78.394
SN-95 2 16 David Balingit 9 21:36.729 1.581 2:18.793 7 77.814
FOX 3 5 Adam Ginsberg 9 21:52.992 17.844 2:20.197 3 77.034
4th gen 4 30 Kent Owens 9 21:53.637 18.489 2:20.316 4 76.969
SN-95? 5 65 Erik Sjoblom 9 21:56.403 21.255 2:20.666 7 76.778
FOX 6 8 Team Incidental 8 20:20.358 1 Lap 2:24.147 2 74.924
FOX 7 13 Don Lariviere 3 8:10.466 6 Laps 2:23.102 2 75.471

[mitchntx]

I can see weight reduction on the way for us poor Stang pilots.

JJ

Heavier cars have an inertial advantage.

[BlueFirePony]

I can see weight reduction on the way for us poor Stang pilots.

JJ

Heavier cars have an inertial advantage.
An intertial component, but I'm hard pressed to think of it as an advantage as I'm spinning towards the tirewall or stuck in the mud. :)

Back to topic though, I think Rob would have done just as well in any reaonably set up car...he's that good.

Go Texicans!!

[marshall_mosty]

Does NASA TX have a speedcast login like last year?

[GlennCMC70]

We have a special treat...the boys did F1 style interviews for GoRacingTV. GoRacingTV is doing some coverage of the championships. They just showed up today, but are planning to do some cool things. The interviews are allegedly going to air tonight at 9pm central time:

http://www.goracingtv.com/09/16/2010/goracingtv-to-broadcast-daily-news-show-from-the-5th-annual-nasa-championships-news-coverage-is-courtesy-of-honda-hpd/

new link:
http://www.goracingtv.com/09/17/2010/day-1-of-goracingtvs-daily-news-show-from-the-5th-annual-nasa-championships-news-coverage-is-courtesy-of-honda-hpd/

[BlueFirePony]

Does NASA TX have a speedcast login like last year?
PM me

[GlennCMC70]

Nice job w/ the Go Racing TV inerview's for the CMC/CMC2 guys. They were the only ones who showed some personality.
Wish I was there.

[GlennCMC70]

Nice job w/ the Go Racing TV inerview's for the CMC/CMC2 guys. They were the only ones who showed some personality.
Wish I was there.

Oh, and I hate you guys. :wink:

[mitchntx]

What's the over and under on the number of phone books Adam was sitting on to be "eye to eye" with Rob?

[GlennCMC70]

that and did his fire suit zipper survive him standing up?

[Rob Liebbe]

Thanks guys. Ill do my best.

[mitchntx]

An intertial component, but I'm hard pressed to think of it as an advantage as I'm spinning towards the tirewall or stuck in the mud. :)


True, but think of it as you "work" your way through traffic.

[Al Fernandez]

Cars headed to grid. Let's hope live timing works!

[marshall_mosty]

Let's go Rob and JK!!!

[AllZWay]

And the race is on... Go get'em guys.

[Wirtz]

watching it now. video keeps hanging on me tho. live timing seems to be working at the moment.

[AllZWay]

I am watching scoring... Jeremiah just dropped to 3rd. Rob is killing them.

[marshall_mosty]

Speedcast is taking a dump. Worked for the first 5 minuts though...

[marshall_mosty]

JK back in 2nd!!!

[AllZWay]

Balingit is gaining on Rob.

[AllZWay]

Balingit is gaining on Rob.

[BlueFirePony]

Rob's put some more distance between him and Dave

[BlueFirePony]

Dave's tightened it up again...!

[marshall_mosty]

Ginsberg is down a lap.... :?

[BlueFirePony]

Adam is off...blowed up?

[AllZWay]

JK is gaining some serious ground.

Oh...that sux for Adam.

[BlueFirePony]

I think JK has fastest lap? 02:14.665

[marshall_mosty]

Dave and Rob are having one hell of a race!!

[mitchntx]

JK is gaining some serious ground.

Oh...that sux for Adam.

I hate it for Ginsberg.

[BlueFirePony]

JK is laying down some consistent fast laps

[AllZWay]

JK is gaining some serious ground.

Oh...that sux for Adam.

I hate it for Ginsberg.

It would have been nice to see Adam at least podium.

[AllZWay]

WOW... David and Jeremiah have both narrowed the lead.

[BlueFirePony]

Dave is all over Rob's rear end!

Go Rob!!!!

[marshall_mosty]

Last Lap!!!

[BlueFirePony]

whte flag!!

[BlueFirePony]

Shit!!! Dave passed Rob

[BlueFirePony]

Dave won by a car length or less

[marshall_mosty]

Bummer for Rob.... great race though.

[AllZWay]

Scoring has not updated...

Sounds like it was a good race...what a heartbreaker for Rob though.

[BlueFirePony]

Did not see the pass but Rob battled to the end...drag race to the checker.

[AllZWay]

Did JK end up second?

[BlueFirePony]

Yep...JK second...he got sooooo close!

[Wirtz]

Wow, quite a finish. Credit Dave B on closing up and making a move right at the end. Sorry to see it for Rob but Rob fought all the way to the end, threw a couple of moves all the way to the line.

Didn't get to see what happened in the Deuce. But the audio was that is was a close finish as well.

Great job by everyone. Completely clean racing from what I saw. Congrats to all out there!

[AllZWay]

Yep...JK second...he got sooooo close!

The scoring on the last lap showed... .06 seperating them.

Great job by both guys.

[GlennCMC70]

:evil:

[mitchntx]

Excellent job everyone!

[GlennCMC70]

Excellent job everyone!

What he said.

Everyone ran a great race.

[Fbody383]

Sounds likes it was fantastic racing!

Way to represent us guys.

[BlueFirePony]

Yep. That looked like a darn good race for both JK and Rob!
Hopefully we can get more racers there next year.
Now, everyone channel your inner racer for Mike tomorrow!!

[jeffburch]

Hold the phone.
Changes in cmc and cmc2 coming.

[Fbody383]

Hold the phone.
Changes in cmc and cmc2 coming. :shock:

[chris-CMC#35]

Just talked to one of the CMC racers at Nats. Sounds like some DQs are coming out of impound, but nothing is final, and dynos haven't even been started.

[jeffburch]

In 2 33 car dq for ride height.
JK wins.

In cmc, 16 dq for strut tower brace mount infraction.
Rob blew over on dyno and dq.

[marshall_mosty]

Congrats for JK...
Still a bummer for Rob...

[Fbody383]

Congrats for JK...
Still a bummer for Rob...

Oh man...

Congrats Jeremiah, way to fight through your own issues.

Rob, you're supposed to eat at a race weekend. HP/TQ numbers and weights will be interesting.

[GlennCMC70]

Well F me!

Good job JK!
Rob????? WTF man? Light post race?

[Al Fernandez]

Wow, what a rollercoaster ride today. First of all, hats off to all of the drivers, friends, and family that made it out here and battled on and off track. The race was just spectacular.

CMC2:

Steel got out front early followed by Kellam and Brown. Kellam was throwing everything at Steel to get by. It looked like Brown was just hanging, waiting for the right time. The right time came and he passed both guys to get into the lead. Nick was fighting a worsening push and started to drop. Kellam got into 2nd and then slowly but surely inched his way to Brown's back bumper. 2nd to last lap Jeremiah made a great run out of the last turn and the cars passed the line side by side under the white flag. The entire control room was standing and cheering. It was awesome. They went side by side for three turns before Brown finally edged up. Kellam threw everything at him, but just couldnt make it happen.

In post race tech Alan Blain started pouring over the cars. One tech item was air dams and air deflectors and validating their height. Brown's air deflector was found to be too low. The car was pushed from the impound area to the garage with a polished and level floor, and it was still low. Measurements were taken with and without driver, it made no difference. Brown was therefore DQd, making the top three Jeremiah Kellam, Nick Steel, and James Ray.

[Al Fernandez]

CMC1:
Liebbe got in front early and in back just about everyone lined up after the first lap. Balingit was giving chase, never falling more than a few car lengths behind Rob through some pretty damn fast laps. Ginsberg drove off driver's left at turn one and parked the car in a safe location allowing green racing to continue. Thanks for that Adam!! Safety crews radioed in that Adam told them the shifter had broken. No one got a chance to talk to him because he packed and left before we were out of tech. Kent Owens was running a good race but felt a vibration that made him think his tire was going down, so he pulled through hot pits to verify, which is a bummer because his tires were fine and as it turns out he would've been on the podium if he'd just stayed out.

In post race tech Balingit was DQd for having illegal chassis stiffening under rule 7.6.2. His strut tower connector has tubes running to the firewall well under the minimum distance of 18" from a roll cage attachment point. Liebbe was sent to the dyno and DQd for making too much power. He broke out of the CMC maximum allowable of 237hp.

I was absolutely crushed at having to DQ any of the drivers, much less three of them. Everyone was good about it, the rules in all of these cases are cut and dry.

Thats it for CMC...results are done, pictures are taken...lets start drinking!!!

CMC2:
Kellam
Steel
Ray
Burnett
Plum
Brown DQ

CMC1
Sjoblom
Lariviere
Incidental Contact
Owens
Ginsberg
Balingit DQ
Liebbe DQ

[GlennCMC70]

Job well done to all.
Great job w/ Tech. This goes to show that you must have a legal car in CMC to win the big show. Its all part of the song and dance.

Rob's DQ is fishy. Surely not Rob's fault. I also do not question the dyno, but rather an issue w/ the car. I hope Al will follow up on this and find out why this happened.

[AllZWay]

WOW what a turn of events since I left this site just after the race.

Congrats to JK.!!

What a complete bummer for Dave and Rob.

I am curious how you can be legal on Tuesday and illegal on Saturday on the same dyno. :?

[mitchntx]

I am curious how you can be legal on Tuesday and illegal on Saturday on the same dyno. :?

Conspiracy ... it's the only plausible excuse.

[David Love AI27]

Congrats to all who made the trip... Nationals is an experience you will never forget.....

As I said last year when I was ranting... National tech is tough and I know we made some big improvements here but...... nuf said...

Congrats to JK and RL for representing AI/CMC Texas.. very proud of you both.... Mike go getem dude!!!

[Adam Ginsberg]

Great weekend of racing. After finally getting my launch mojo back for today's race, I tried my hardest to catch Sjoblom. While on the front straight, as I shifted from 4th to 5th, I sheared off the upper shifter bolt. No way to continue, so I pulled well off so as not to ruin everyone else's race. I checked everything else on the car last night, but not the shifter.

It was a huge disappointment to hear of the DQ's. Rob and Dave had a great battle.

Many thanks to Dave Donovan for his support - couldn't have done without ya. Same with RP and JB.....great crewing and radio work, guys.

I'm in Primm getting fuel, and continuing on. Safe travels to everyone!!

[roadracerwhite]

I have had shifter problems a couple times, I now though bolt it and double nut w locktight on bolt bolts.

Once I had it fall forward in my car and then couldnt reach it. This year while driving Kent's car in the enduro the top bolt fell off, try driving for an hour using just the knub that sticks out. Meanwhile everyone in the pits is making fun of your shifting ability, they can't undrstand why it sound like your shifting a grain truck.

Bryan

[GlennCMC70]

Post race CMC/CMC2 interviews.
http://www.goracingtv.com/09/18/2010/day-2-of-goracingtvs-daily-news-show-from-the-5th-annual-nasa-championships-news-coverage-is-courtesy-of-honda-hpd/

[Adam Ginsberg]

The 2010 CMC National Champ has lexan windows. None of the CMC competitors were notified this driver had them.

[Al Fernandez]

Bitter? Calling Bitter, party of one!

Look, that car made weight by a shitpile. Those lexan quarter windows are retardidly heavy with their huge bolts ans steel air scoops, not to mention they're like 3/8 thick. I knew about them and td him to fix it by next event.

[mitchntx]

I don't know ... I can see Adam's point.

It's kind of like a gutted hood. Probably doesn't amount to much on the track, especially when not even close to making weight.

But it's still a gutted hood.

[AllZWay]

Very interesting.......

[Fbody383]

The 2010 CMC National Champ has lexan windows. None of the CMC competitors were notified this driver had them.
Not sure a Director had to, but...


Bitter? Calling Bitter, party of one!

Make it a party of two.

[Adam Ginsberg]

I don't know ... I can see Adam's point.

It's kind of like a gutted hood. Probably doesn't amount to much on the track, especially when not even close to making weight.

But it's still a gutted hood.


Ding, ding ding! We have a winner. It changes the contingency $$$ for ALL the drivers. This isn't a regional event - its the NATIONALS.

Bitter?? No. Angry about not being told about it? Yes.

[GlennCMC70]

I don't know ... I can see Adam's point.

It's kind of like a gutted hood. Probably doesn't amount to much on the track, especially when not even close to making weight.

But it's still a gutted hood.


Ding, ding ding! We have a winner. It changes the contingency $$$ for ALL the drivers. This isn't a regional event - its the NATIONALS.

Bitter?? No. Angry about not being told about it? Yes.

Were you not on the recieving end of a "fix it ticket" at the 2006 Nats? Some issue about your wheels extending out past the fenders. All but 1 of the 23 racers allowed you to race the remainder of the weekend w/ your performance advantage instead of sending you home (since all your wheels were like that).
The difference here is it was not put to a vote by your fellow racers.

So, had you known in advance, would you have sent the guy home?

[GlennCMC70]

Any updates on the AI race? I was told there was lots of contact and stuff.

[mitchntx]

http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=1693592&perclass=1

Martin 1st
Patterson 5th
Schlender 6th

[Al Fernandez]

A gutted hood relocates weight. These quarter windows are not lighter. Did I mention the steel marine style air scoops? Come on guys, relax a bit.

[mitchntx]

A gutted hood relocates weight. These quarter windows are not lighter. Did I mention the steel marine style air scoops? Come on guys, relax a bit.

I must've missed the part in the rule book where it says "If it doesn't say you can, you can't, unless it doesn't relocate the weight."

[Rob Liebbe]

Yeah - who put the mothballs in my gas tank? :wink:

[mitchntx]

How many of these National Championships will have to have an asterisk next to it before all the regions stop doing things their own way?

[K Shaw]

Lexan windows on the winning car and a DQ for a strut tower bar mounting infraction.

I dont get it.

Too much power on the dyno I get.

Is this some ones opinion that the strut tower bar is giving a advantage or do they have facts to back it up like a dyno sheet.

Sounds like lexan windows should have been a DQ or strut tower brace should have been a fix it ticket.

Anyway great racing guys. Congrats to everyone.

[David Love AI27]

How many of these National Championships will have to have an asterisk next to it before all the regions stop doing things their own way?

:twisted:

[RichardP]

These quarter windows are not lighter.


So it's OK to have illegal parts if you implement them poorly???


Richard P.

[jeffburch]

How many of these National Championships will have to have an asterisk next to it before all the regions stop doing things their own way?

Oh just wait till you here the poop from tech today after the AI race.

jb

[Fbody383]

How many of these National Championships will have to have an asterisk next to it before all the regions stop doing things their own way?

Oh just wait till you here the poop from tech today after the AI race.

jb

Where's that <popcorn> emoticon when you need it.

[marshall_mosty]

How many of these National Championships will have to have an asterisk next to it before all the regions stop doing things their own way?

Oh just wait till you here the poop from tech today after the AI race.

jbDo tell.... Do tell... Enquiring minds want to know. :)

[jeffburch]

Naa. Wanna see spin in it's natural state. You can though pull up dyno form and brush up on what it says.

jb

[AllZWay]

Where's that <popcorn> emoticon when you need it.

http://www.jpmotorsports.biz/smilies/popcorn.gif

[Adam Ginsberg]

Were you not on the recieving end of a "fix it ticket" at the 2006 Nats? Some issue about your wheels extending out past the fenders. All but 1 of the 23 racers allowed you to race the remainder of the weekend w/ your performance advantage instead of sending you home (since all your wheels were like that).
The difference here is it was not put to a vote by your fellow racers.

So, had you known in advance, would you have sent the guy home?

I'm going to temper my frustration.

First of all, get your facts right. There was questions about my track width - my wheels did not stick out past my fenders. At that time, there was no track width rule. The 4th gen cars did have tires sticking out past their fenders, as many used 3rd gen rims to increase their track width.

In my case, the entire group was allowed to decide to leave it be, and it was dropped.

In this case, the racers were not notified.

If the guy's windows weren't a performance advantage, then why do we refuse to permit lexan windows?

Glenn - you, of all, people cannot defend this. You are, and have always been, black and white on the rules.

Send him home? No. But crown him the 2010 CMC National Champion? Certainly not. The decision effects contingency $$$ for ALL the finishers.

It's the NATIONALS, not a Regional event.

I have no more time to spend discussing this.

[K Shaw]

Every one should be worried about me coming to texas and building a new car. :P

[GlennCMC70]

Were you not on the recieving end of a "fix it ticket" at the 2006 Nats? Some issue about your wheels extending out past the fenders. All but 1 of the 23 racers allowed you to race the remainder of the weekend w/ your performance advantage instead of sending you home (since all your wheels were like that).
The difference here is it was not put to a vote by your fellow racers.

So, had you known in advance, would you have sent the guy home?

I'm going to temper my frustration.

First of all, get your facts right. There was questions about my track width - my wheels did not stick out past my fenders. At that time, there was no track width rule. The 4th gen cars did have tires sticking out past their fenders, as many used 3rd gen rims to increase their track width.

In my case, the entire group was allowed to decide to leave it be, and it was dropped.

In this case, the racers were not notified.

If the guy's windows weren't a performance advantage, then why do we refuse to permit lexan windows?

Glenn - you, of all, people cannot defend this. You are, and have always been, black and white on the rules.

Send him home? No. But crown him the 2010 CMC National Champion? Certainly not. The decision effects contingency $$$ for ALL the finishers.

It's the NATIONALS, not a Regional event.

I have no more time to spend discussing this.

You are right in that I am a black and white rules kind of guy. However, some understanding should be given.
Lets look at JK for instance. He was DQ'ed and had a means to resolve the infraction. Had DB been DQ'ed in a qual race, he would have been afforded the same option of resolving the infraction. There is also the ability to have all racers involved agree or disagree to allow the offending driver to stay and race if the infraction cant be resolved.
In the case of ES, he could remove the windows, or run w/ what he has. This year I do not recall votes being offered (from what I'm told). Al made the decision for you.
Al issued many, many, many fix it tickets to the CMC field at this event. And in fact the person who I'm told got the most is a car you crowned SoCal CMC Champ and who you feel should now be CMC National Champ.
So, just as ES's regional director allowed him to run this way or just flat never pointed it out, is no different than how one of your own regional guys has similar issues. Your on Al's ass for not DQ'ing a guy, but you didn’t follow your own advice w/in your own region to those you crown CMC Champ.

As for your legality..... semantics. Your right, your wheels didn’t stick out past YOUR fenders, but they would have stuck out past an OEM fender. You are correct that 2 4th gens there had 3rd gen wheels w/ similar wheel/fender issues. All were afforded the option of staying and racing w/ what they have.

As has been mentioned before, if you want ES DQ'ed, DL will get DQ'ed along w/ yourself. So the Champ will then be KO.


The above is just my opinion.

[GlennCMC70]

Every one should be worried about me coming to texas and building a new car. :P

Bring it big boy. Got a new one in the works myself.

[mitchntx]

Every one should be worried about me coming to texas and building a new car. :P

Bring it big boy. Got a new one in the works myself.

I predict you'll have contact just loading it on the trailer.

[GlennCMC70]

Every one should be worried about me coming to texas and building a new car. :P

Bring it big boy. Got a new one in the works myself.

I predict you'll have contact just loading it on the trailer.

I hope I'm using your trailer then.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Al issued many, many, many fix it tickets to the CMC field at this event. And in fact the person who I'm told got the most is a car you crowned SoCal CMC Champ and who you feel should now be CMC National Champ.

I'll say it again - you need to get your facts straight. Especially since you didn't attend this year. So, realistically, you should keep out of this, since you did not witness a single thing at the 2010 Nats.

There may have been many, many fix it tickets issued at this year's Nats (your words), but we (the racers) didn't know about them, as they were not discussed in the driver's meeting.

My car did not receive a single "fix it ticket" at the 2010 Nationals, so I'm at a loss to understand why you are saying otherwise.

How you come to the conclusion that my car should be National Champ is completely beyond me - not once did I say that, anywhere.

You, Al and Todd are very adept at trying to turn this around and point the finger at the person calling them out for the mistake. Stop twisting this around - Al made a significant mistake, and he refuses to admit it.


So, just as ES's regional director allowed him to run this way or just flat never pointed it out, is no different than how one of your own regional guys has similar issues. Your on Al's ass for not DQ'ing a guy, but you didn’t follow your own advice w/in your own region to those you crown CMC Champ.

Where you come up with this shit is beyond me - I didn't say anything about Erik's regional director not catching stuff on his car, so remove that from the argument. JK's car was found with illegal chassis stiffening - that means it was missed in TX for 2 or so years. So what? It was found at the Nats - enough said.

A CA AI driver was found with 10" wide wheels - I haven't caught that all year either. So what? It was found at the Nats - enough said.

The key here is.....this is the NATIONALS.


As for your legality..... semantics. Your right, your wheels didn’t stick out past YOUR fenders, but they would have stuck out past an OEM fender. You are correct that 2 4th gens there had 3rd gen wheels w/ similar wheel/fender issues. All were afforded the option of staying and racing w/ what they have.

Yes, they were. And you're proving my point yet again - ALL the driver's were notified. Not so at this years event.

I didn't finish the damn race due to a mechanical failure - I finished DFL. I'm not saying I should be the National Champ - don't muddy the waters with inconsequential junk.

Additionally, how should I be DQ'd from the Championship race? Because I didn't go to tech while being towed in?? Fair enough - I'll take the DQ because it doesn't mean anything.

Crowning a CMC champ with lexan windows should not happen, plain and simple.

Let me be clear yet again - the car crowned the National Champ had lexan windows. By Al's own admission, he knew about it on Wednesday. Not a single other driver was notified about this very blatant rules violation. It looks poorly on the class.

I'm going back to work.....

[mitchntx]

http://www.lawmotorsports.net/catcorn.jpg

[K Shaw]

Every one should be worried about me coming to texas and building a new car. :P

Bring it big boy. Got a new one in the works myself.

:mrgreen:

[K Shaw]

Every one should be worried about me coming to texas and building a new car. :P

Bring it big boy. Got a new one in the works myself.

I predict you'll have contact just loading it on the trailer.

I predict contact with the wife when I UNLOAD it from the trailer.

[nasa-rm]

Every one should be worried about me coming to texas and building a new car. :P

Revkah and I discussed moving to Texas this AM.....

[nasa-rm]

Had DB been DQ'ed in a qual race, he would have been afforded the same option of resolving the infraction. There is also the ability to have all racers involved agree or disagree to allow.

If I could go back and do it again, I would LOVE to be DQ'ed in the qual race.

I was impounded once over the first 2 days, weight and my car was checked for safety items and what appeared to be chassis stiffening (they looked at the subframe rails. Wish the other item was found I would have taken that sucker out quick.

Last thing in the world is for me to be labeled a cheater (esp as a regional director). More importantly, how does this make Maximum Motorsports (strut tower bar) and my primary sponsor Hanksville (who built my cage) look? This is what I am more embarrassed about :oops:.

[mitchntx]

You know Dave ... you are a class act.

Not so much worried about yourself as you are those around you.

Refreshing ... makes me want to move to RMR ...

[K Shaw]

Every one should be worried about me coming to texas and building a new car. :P

Revkah and I discussed moving to Texas this AM.....

so far I love it. But I think i may have brought a brunch of rain with me.

Austin is fun and north Austin around the roundrock Georgetown area is nice. Oh and cheaper than Denver. Oh and I gave all of my snow removal tools away.

[K Shaw]

Had DB been DQ'ed in a qual race, he would have been afforded the same option of resolving the infraction. There is also the ability to have all racers involved agree or disagree to allow.

If I could go back and do it again, I would LOVE to be DQ'ed in the qual race.

I was impounded once over the first 2 days, weight and my car was checked for safety items and what appeared to be chassis stiffening (they looked at the subframe rails. Wish the other item was found I would have taken that sucker out quick.

Last thing in the world is for me to be labeled a cheater (esp as a regional director). More importantly, how does this make Maximum Motorsports (strut tower bar) and my primary sponsor Hanksville (who built my cage) look? This is what I am more embarrassed about :oops:.

Rich was asking me about the STB and I told him I didnt think there was anything weird about it.

[GlennCMC70]

Al issued many, many, many fix it tickets to the CMC field at this event. And in fact the person who I'm told got the most is a car you crowned SoCal CMC Champ and who you feel should now be CMC National Champ.

I'll say it again - you need to get your facts straight. Especially since you didn't attend this year. So, realistically, you should keep out of this, since you did not witness a single thing at the 2010 Nats.

Your right, I wasnt there. I did however spend alot of time on the phone w/ Al over the last few days. Your were specifically mentioned as having a fix it ticket. My facts are straight, as they were presented to me.
As for not being present, thats never stopped your involvment in any way.



There may have been many, many fix it tickets issued at this year's Nats (your words), but we (the racers) didn't know about them, as they were not discussed in the driver's meeting.

My car did not receive a single "fix it ticket" at the 2010 Nationals, so I'm at a loss to understand why you are saying otherwise.
Because Al told me so today. But lets redirect back to Don's car. Care to respond to that?


How you come to the conclusion that my car should be National Champ is completely beyond me - not once did I say that, anywhere.[/qoute]
Nor did I.


You, Al and Todd are very adept at trying to turn this around and point the finger at the person calling them out for the mistake. Stop twisting this around - Al made a significant mistake, and he refuses to admit it.
I dont see it as a mistake. But rather a decition he made that likely differs from mine or yours. Its his to make. You are in no greater position to say he is wrong than I am to say he's not. You say I'm turing it around on you, but really I'm just offering a counter POV.


So, just as ES's regional director allowed him to run this way or just flat never pointed it out, is no different than how one of your own regional guys has similar issues. Your on Al's ass for not DQ'ing a guy, but you didn’t follow your own advice w/in your own region to those you crown CMC Champ.

Where you come up with this shit is beyond me - I didn't say anything about Erik's regional director not catching stuff on his car, so remove that from the argument. JK's car was found with illegal chassis stiffening - that means it was missed in TX for 2 or so years. So what? It was found at the Nats - enough said.

A CA AI driver was found with 10" wide wheels - I haven't caught that all year either. So what? It was found at the Nats - enough said.

The key here is.....this is the NATIONALS.
So I expect you will be calling for a DQ on Don as well, right? Fair is fair. He was allowed to run in a manner less than 100% legal.


As for your legality..... semantics. Your right, your wheels didn’t stick out past YOUR fenders, but they would have stuck out past an OEM fender. You are correct that 2 4th gens there had 3rd gen wheels w/ similar wheel/fender issues. All were afforded the option of staying and racing w/ what they have.

Yes, they were. And you're proving my point yet again - ALL the driver's were notified. Not so at this years event.[/quote]
I guess you think that is a right you have. Sorry to inform you, but it is not. Al makes that call.


I didn't finish the damn race due to a mechanical failure - I finished DFL. I'm not saying I should be the National Champ - don't muddy the waters with inconsequential junk.
I dont think you should be, never said it. But reporting to impound was required to maintain a legal status. You did not, but was given a place above Rob and Dave, not DFL.


Additionally, how should I be DQ'd from the Championship race? Because I didn't go to tech while being towed in?? Fair enough - I'll take the DQ because it doesn't mean anything.

Crowning a CMC champ with lexan windows should not happen, plain and simple.
Ya know, my car has had non-OEM window tint on it since the day it was built. Should I send back my National Champ awards?


Let me be clear yet again - the car crowned the National Champ had lexan windows. By Al's own admission, he knew about it on Wednesday. Not a single other driver was notified about this very blatant rules violation. It looks poorly on the class.

I'm going back to work.....

I think your expecting a level of involvment that is not obligated to you in any way. Al has that right. Its his show. Deal w/ it.
I would side w/ you more if this was discovered post qual race. Even more so if it was a tech item.
Your being a poor sport at this point.

[GlennCMC70]

Had DB been DQ'ed in a qual race, he would have been afforded the same option of resolving the infraction. There is also the ability to have all racers involved agree or disagree to allow.

If I could go back and do it again, I would LOVE to be DQ'ed in the qual race.

I was impounded once over the first 2 days, weight and my car was checked for safety items and what appeared to be chassis stiffening (they looked at the subframe rails. Wish the other item was found I would have taken that sucker out quick.

Last thing in the world is for me to be labeled a cheater (esp as a regional director). More importantly, how does this make Maximum Motorsports (strut tower bar) and my primary sponsor Hanksville (who built my cage) look? This is what I am more embarrassed about :oops:.

Rich was asking me about the STB and I told him I didnt think there was anything weird about it.

I would like to see pics.

[K Shaw]

Had DB been DQ'ed in a qual race, he would have been afforded the same option of resolving the infraction. There is also the ability to have all racers involved agree or disagree to allow.

If I could go back and do it again, I would LOVE to be DQ'ed in the qual race.

I was impounded once over the first 2 days, weight and my car was checked for safety items and what appeared to be chassis stiffening (they looked at the subframe rails. Wish the other item was found I would have taken that sucker out quick.

Last thing in the world is for me to be labeled a cheater (esp as a regional director). More importantly, how does this make Maximum Motorsports (strut tower bar) and my primary sponsor Hanksville (who built my cage) look? This is what I am more embarrassed about :oops:.

Rich was asking me about the STB and I told him I didnt think there was anything weird about it.

I would like to see pics.

You could mosey on over to the Maximum motorsports web site and look for a STB for a 4.6 sn95 mustang. Cant help you on the cage mounting points.

[GlennCMC70]

Wow, that site is not navigation friendly.
Post a link?

[michaelmosty]

Wow, that site is not navigation friendly.
Post a link?
http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=122_123&products_id=600

No kidding. I had to click on chassis stiffening & bracing AND THEN strut towers AND THEN 96-97 Mustang. The nerve of them. :roll:

Hey D. Francis, I just got to give someone computer help. :D
You have taught me well master.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Your right, I wasnt there. I did however spend alot of time on the phone w/ Al over the last few days. Your were specifically mentioned as having a fix it ticket. My facts are straight, as they were presented to me.

Your "facts" are incorrect. There was no 'fix it ticket' noted in my logbook. You weren't there, so telling me what did or didn't happen doesn't work very well.


Because Al told me so today.

So, let me say it again - there was no 'fix it ticket' noted in my logbook. The car passed each tech inspection, including the initial tech by Covini on Wednesday evening.

Unless, the "fix it" you are referring to was the missing car classifications and numbers on the front and back. Which was fixed Wednesday evening.

Is that the same as lexan windows?? Let's stay on point.


But lets redirect back to Don's car. Care to respond to that?

No, I won't redirect back to Don's car - you are still obfuscating the real issue - naming a National Champ with lexan windows, and not a single CMC competitor was aware of this issue. Let's stay on point.


I dont see it as a mistake. But rather a decition he made that likely differs from mine or yours. Its his to make. You are in no greater position to say he is wrong than I am to say he's not. You say I'm turing it around on you, but really I'm just offering a counter POV.

What you've been doing is pointing out various items that direct attention away from the real issue - a car was deemed the National Champion that has lexan windows, and not a single other CMC driver was made aware of Al's decision of a "fix it ticket".


So I expect you will be calling for a DQ on Don as well, right? Fair is fair. He was allowed to run in a manner less than 100% legal.

Ok, I'll bite. Just so we're all on the same page - you are intimating that Don's missing dash plates are the exact same performance advantage as lexan windows?

Clearly, one could argue the weight difference. Let's see.....less than 1lb of sheet aluminum vs. two glass windows replaced with lexan. Same?


I guess you think that is a right you have. Sorry to inform you, but it is not. Al makes that call.

Al notified all the CMC2 drivers that a CMC2 car didn't meet the track width rule by 1/8". He left it up to the drivers to decide. He wasn't consistent in letting the CMC driver's make the same decision. He didn't even let us know there was a car with lexan windows.


I dont think you should be, never said it. But reporting to impound was required to maintain a legal status. You did not, but was given a place above Rob and Dave, not DFL.

My car was on a tow hook. It's finishing position, prior to the DQ's, was 7th. You need to read the CCR's (section 17.1) - top 4 are required to go to impound, unless the driver is unsure of his/her's finishing position (I was well aware of my finishing position). There is nothing in the 2010 National SUPPS about a towed vehicle required to go to impound, so the CCR's are our guide in this case.

Driver's meeting announcements by the Group Race Director supersede the CCR's, and the SUPPS. There was no mention in the driver's meeting of a vehicle being required to go to impound if it's on a tow hook. As such, I followed the CCR's. Was I required to go to impound? Not according to the CCR's.

Rob and Dave have DQ's, are not DFL as they do not get a finishing position. My finishing position, given I was a race starter, and they were DQ'd, was DFL. In this case, 5th. According to the CCR's, not required to go to impound.

But, we're getting off point again.


Ya know, my car has had non-OEM window tint on it since the day it was built. Should I send back my National Champ awards?

Window tint the same as lexan windows?? Again, obfuscating the real issue at hand. Let's stay on point.


Your being a poor sport at this point.

Wow - I'm being a poor sport. For being dissatisfied about a car with lexan windows being named the 2010 National Champion.

Glenn - are are defending an indefensible position, and using tactics that draw attention away from the real issue. I'm staying on point.

Clearly, without a doubt, I'm wrong.

[BryanL]

You know Dave ... you are a class act.

Not so much worried about yourself as you are those around you.

Refreshing ... makes me want to move to RMR ...

Great. Sounds like we have a even trade of mitch for David or will we have to sweeten the deal?

[mitchntx]

Adam ... good luck on this one. The wagons are obviously circled. You are wrong because Glenn said Al said so.


7.6.2 One bolt in stay rod may be fitted between the upper front strut towers and between each strut tower
and the firewall, as long as the firewall attachment point is not within 18" of a roll cage attachment point on
the other side of the firewall.

So those "fingers" that attach to the firewall are with 18" of where a knee bar attaches to the cage?


a roll cage attachment point on the other side of the firewall

That tells me where cage bars intersect not where a knee bar runs. If its where the knee bar runs, ANY 3 point or 4 point is illegal.

And if that's the case, why set a racer up for failure?

Say ....


One bolt in, 2 point stay rod may be fitted between the upper front strut towers.

The rest of that rule is jibberish.

[marshall_mosty]

I'm just wondering how long it took GL and AG to link together all the quotes, counter-quotes, and quotes of quotes....

I don't have that much time in my day to put all that together...

[RichardP]

7.6.2 One bolt in stay rod may be fitted between the upper front strut towers and between each strut tower
and the firewall, as long as the firewall attachment point is not within 18" of a roll cage attachment point on
the other side of the firewall.

So those "fingers" that attach to the firewall are with 18" of where a knee bar attaches to the cage?


a roll cage attachment point on the other side of the firewall


The cage had bars going from the A-pillar down tubes forward to the foot well/firewall for foot protection (fully legal). The car also had a strut tower brace mounted in the engine compartment (also fully legal). The distance on the firewall from the foot protection tube to the strut tower mount was less than 18" (not legal).


Richard P.

[mitchntx]

The cage had bars going from the A-pillar down tubes forward to the foot well/firewall for foot protection (fully legal). The car also had a strut tower brace mounted in the engine compartment (also fully legal). The distance on the firewall from the foot protection tube to the strut tower mount was less than 18" (not legal).


Richard P.

Got it!



I'm just wondering how long it took GL and AG to link together all the quotes, counter-quotes, and quotes of quotes....

I don't have that much time in my day to put all that together...

GL AG AF TC DO DG DB BFD SFM GTFOH .... does any one have a line-up card?

[GlennCMC70]

Your right, I wasnt there. I did however spend alot of time on the phone w/ Al over the last few days. Your were specifically mentioned as having a fix it ticket. My facts are straight, as they were presented to me.

Your "facts" are incorrect. There was no 'fix it ticket' noted in my logbook. You weren't there, so telling me what did or didn't happen doesn't work very well.


Because Al told me so today.

So, let me say it again - there was no 'fix it ticket' noted in my logbook. The car passed each tech inspection, including the initial tech by Covini on Wednesday evening.

Unless, the "fix it" you are referring to was the missing car classifications and numbers on the front and back. Which was fixed Wednesday evening.

Is that the same as lexan windows?? Let's stay on point.


But lets redirect back to Don's car. Care to respond to that?

No, I won't redirect back to Don's car - you are still obfuscating the real issue - naming a National Champ with lexan windows, and not a single CMC competitor was aware of this issue. Let's stay on point.


I dont see it as a mistake. But rather a decition he made that likely differs from mine or yours. Its his to make. You are in no greater position to say he is wrong than I am to say he's not. You say I'm turing it around on you, but really I'm just offering a counter POV.

What you've been doing is pointing out various items that direct attention away from the real issue - a car was deemed the National Champion that has lexan windows, and not a single other CMC driver was made aware of Al's decision of a "fix it ticket".


So I expect you will be calling for a DQ on Don as well, right? Fair is fair. He was allowed to run in a manner less than 100% legal.

Ok, I'll bite. Just so we're all on the same page - you are intimating that Don's missing dash plates are the exact same performance advantage as lexan windows?

Clearly, one could argue the weight difference. Let's see.....less than 1lb of sheet aluminum vs. two glass windows replaced with lexan. Same?


I guess you think that is a right you have. Sorry to inform you, but it is not. Al makes that call.

Al notified all the CMC2 drivers that a CMC2 car didn't meet the track width rule by 1/8". He left it up to the drivers to decide. He wasn't consistent in letting the CMC driver's make the same decision. He didn't even let us know there was a car with lexan windows.


I dont think you should be, never said it. But reporting to impound was required to maintain a legal status. You did not, but was given a place above Rob and Dave, not DFL.

My car was on a tow hook. It's finishing position, prior to the DQ's, was 7th. You need to read the CCR's (section 17.1) - top 4 are required to go to impound, unless the driver is unsure of his/her's finishing position (I was well aware of my finishing position). There is nothing in the 2010 National SUPPS about a towed vehicle required to go to impound, so the CCR's are our guide in this case.

Driver's meeting announcements by the Group Race Director supersede the CCR's, and the SUPPS. There was no mention in the driver's meeting of a vehicle being required to go to impound if it's on a tow hook. As such, I followed the CCR's. Was I required to go to impound? Not according to the CCR's.

Rob and Dave have DQ's, are not DFL as they do not get a finishing position. My finishing position, given I was a race starter, and they were DQ'd, was DFL. In this case, 5th. According to the CCR's, not required to go to impound.

But, we're getting off point again.


Ya know, my car has had non-OEM window tint on it since the day it was built. Should I send back my National Champ awards?

Window tint the same as lexan windows?? Again, obfuscating the real issue at hand. Let's stay on point.


Your being a poor sport at this point.

Wow - I'm being a poor sport. For being dissatisfied about a car with lexan windows being named the 2010 National Champion.

Glenn - are are defending an indefensible position, and using tactics that draw attention away from the real issue. I'm staying on point.

Clearly, without a doubt, I'm wrong.

So is the weight diffence in dash parts and the lexan windows the issue? Al pointed out that the set-up in the car was heavier than the OEM glass.
So it seems Don was in more of a violation than the other guy.

As for the lack of a comment in your logbook...... well, a fix it ticket is a fix it ticket regardless if its written or verbal. Good God. I recall it being a safety related item, but I'll go w/ what you pointed out.
I do think you should have been told. I do not think its your right to be told. Its Al who will decide that. He did consult CMC2 on what was a performance advantage. That is my main point. But to stand there and make a big stink about a heavier than stock part that adds zero performance advantage in its current configuration is being petty. One that cant be resolved on the spot. If he was racing in Tx, and it was caught at the TWS July/Aug event then he shows up at Nats that way after being told to fix it, I bet he would have been DQ'ed. If Bryan White had noted in his logbook at thier last event that those must be replaced prior to the next event or prior to Nats, bingo, DQ. W/ all the info evaluated, Al made a judgement call. One you dont like. I dont pretend to agree w/ it, but it is his call.
Would glass side windows prevented your DNF? So if it affect you in no way, where is the rub?

Also, dont assume that this is the end of the issue w/ this car and the non-legal lexan. It will be addressed and it is another reason why many series directors harp on the "play by all the rules in your region" as often as they do. Each of you as a car owner should strive for a completely 100% legal car regardless of how insignificant you feel the rule is. There will always be someone who will take issue w/ you violating it at one point in time or another.
Case in point - this thread.

[Fbody383]

You know Dave ... you are a class act.

I agree and it was fun getting to know you a little beating on the car at Hallett.

I don't think you intended to do anything wrong, just like I don't think Rob/Al intended the car to dyno over and my guess is the guy with the lexan wasn't trying to pull anything over on anyone.

But rules is supposed to be rules; and as much as it sucks, it probably really should be 3 DQs.

[RichardP]

Why don’t we try to redirect the argument in a different direction.

The tube going across Kellam’s car from subframe connector to subframe connector didn’t make him faster and the 15 minute fix to make him legal certainly didn’t slow him down. The configuration that he showed up with was not legal and he was disqualified from a session (to basically no effect).

The strut tower attachment on Dave’s car was not the reason he was fast and a 5 minute fix to make the car legal would not have made him slower. The configuration that he showed up with was not legal and he was disqualified from a session. Unfortunately, that session was for all the marbles and he goes home with nothing.

The air dam being an eighth of an inch low was not the reason the 33x car was fast and correcting that issue would not have made him slower. The configuration that he showed up with was not legal and he was disqualified from a session. Unfortunately, that session was for all the marbles and he goes home with nothing.

The lexan windows (or the missing cowl plate) were not the reason that Erik was um… only two seconds a lap off of the leaders and correcting these issues would not have made him slower. The configuration he showed up in was not legal and he was told to… try harder for next time. He was given a pass because he wasn’t expected to do anything at nationals. Except that he did actually end up on the podium before the disqualifications.

The consistency is the problem here. I’m OK with the disqualifications and I would be happy if they were handed out across the board. It is interesting to note the order of the tech items had a huge effect on the outcome. If tech had checked for firewall issues first and subframe issues last, Dave would be celebrating and we would be discussing how Kellam got ripped off.

I’m completely OK with fix it tickets (especially for non-performance items) to help grow the fields… but only at the regional level… and only when they don’t affect the people who showed up with legal cars. Fix it tickets at nationals? Really??? Handed out inconsistently?????

I’m glad to see tech was done and done thoroughly. I think it’s important, not that it punishes the offenders, but that it validates the hard work, attention to detail, and skill of the winners. That’s not quite how it turned out…

Maybe we could work on doing real tech locally so competitors don’t have to go all the way to nationals to get disqualified for stuff they don’t know about.

Richard P.

[Fbody383]

Hey D. Francis, I just got to give someone computer help. :D
You have taught me well master.

You have done well, Grasshopper. I'm really looking forward to ECR so we can argue all this out over beer, beer and snacks.

I'm not smart enough to just sit back and watch... but I am making plans to go try this whole Nationals roller coaster in '11.

[K Shaw]

I know that #6 was 100% legal and has spent many many many hours making it so.

I wonder how they feel about finishing behind a car that is NOT 100% legal.

Yeah I know they are not the fastest dudes in the land however they are obviously better at reading a rule book and conforming to those rules than the fastest dudes in the land.

Or are they not the fastest dudes in the land because they are 100% legal.

" Each of you as a car owner should strive for a completely 100% legal car regardless of how insignificant you feel the rule is."


No matter how many people say that the lexan window infraction wasnt a performance advantage the car still wasnt legal.

Frankly the finishing order doesnt mean spit to me. I still dont get how two non legal cars can get DQed while other non legal cars can finish in front of 100% legal cars.

[mitchntx]

Yeah I know they are not the fastest dudes in the land however they are obviously better at reading a rule book and conforming to those rules than the fastest dudes in the land.

Or are they not the fastest dudes in the land because they are 100% legal.


Oh man ... that's a good one.

[Al Fernandez]

I disagree on some of your points Richard. Strut bars, extended air deflectors, and sub frame connectors are all modifications made looking to improve performance. There is simply no way those quarter windows were installed with the thought of improving performance. On top of them being outright silly heavy the car is hugely overweight. So that coupled with the fact that it was caught so early was the reason for the fix it ticket. Yes we couldve weighed them and compared to glass and then glued a few quarters to the area but good god! There were more important things to worry about. That, incidentally, is the same repair we've offered for things like a gutted hood.

I will agree that the timing of the post race tech has a huge influence. Not sure how to resolve that other than icreased pre event tech. You're still going to need post race tech, and like Browns case still have folks trying to get so close to the edge they occasionally fall over it.

[Al Fernandez]

Adam, Glenn...I respectfully request you two settle this offline or just agree to disagree.

Adam, you are free to have your own opinion. I am confused as to why it would matter to have drivers weigh in on another car being allowed to race with non compliant parts since by your own statement no champ should have any non compliant parts period. I've never seen a situation where drivers were asked to vote "no" or "yes unless he wins", but whatever. At this point you can decide if you want to appeal my decision or not.

And by the way, at the drivers meetings I told everyone that after the big show all cars were being impounded and only I had authority to release them. All other 23 cars were there including one that pulled in early. Same message was delivered to Group A (AI) and two drivers in that race had the tow truck driver stop at tech. Patterson waited for quite a while there with a dead car as a matter of fact.

You are right about one thing though, I did make a major mistake. I didnt make it this weekend, but it took the events of this weekend to realize it.

[BryanL]

Adam, Glenn...I respectfully request you two settle this offline or just agree to disagree.


You are right about one thing though, I did make a major mistake. I didnt make it this weekend, but it took the events of this weekend to realize it.

What was your major mistake?

I agree on the Glenn/Adam arguments as well.

[Rob Liebbe]

Adam, Glenn...I respectfully request you two settle this offline or just agree to disagree.


You are right about one thing though, I did make a major mistake. I didnt make it this weekend, but it took the events of this weekend to realize it.

What was your major mistake?



He forgot to warn me that the cool suit switch doubled as a power flip switch. Just kidding.

[donovan]

You are right about one thing though, I did make a major mistake. I didnt make it this weekend, but it took the events of this weekend to realize it.

Well, we all know how you play that game.

Watch out Adam, they will stab you in the back and remove you as a Director. You better start drinking the kool-aid!


DD

[RichardP]

I disagree on some of your points Richard. Strut bars, extended air deflectors, and sub frame connectors are all modifications made looking to improve performance. There is simply no way those quarter windows were installed with the thought of improving performance.

OK. Can we get a chart with potential lap time benefits for each of the violations found at nationals? Without hard data, it’s just wishy washy opinions on what we believe could cause an advantage.

So the offending quarter windows have vents in them. Do we have before and after wind tunnel tests to determine their effect on the overall drag and down force? If they weren’t meant to affect some change on the car, why were they installed??? Do we have data on the aerodynamic effects of a missing cowl plate??? Did you know that’s one of the highest air pressure points on the car?

Either nationals is a big deal or it isn’t. I’d like to think that it’s a big deal. Given the disqualifications that were handed out, it seems like the intent was for it to be a big deal. If it is actually a big deal, a car is either legal or it’s not.

You believe that the violations that caused a DQ were of a performance benefit and the violations that were handed a fix it ticket were of no performance benefit. I believe you are wrong. I also believe I have enough of a technical background to back up my beliefs. I also believe that none of this is relevant. In order to be fair and unbiased, beliefs get thrown out the window and all decisions should be based on facts. Based on facts, a car is either legal or it’s not.

If a car isn’t legal, a person worthy of a national championship will do whatever it takes to make it legal. One team had their car gutted and destroyed by fire. They found a replacement tub and were back on track the next day. Apparently they thought nationals was a big deal. Replacing a couple of quarter windows sounds like a pretty minor thing. I saw the Safelite auto glass truck on site...

Richard P.

[Al Fernandez]

Richard, not asking for you to agree, and understand I appreciate your opinion. Everyone is allowed to make up their own mind, and the event's competitors are allowed to seek recourse under the rules themselves if they feel they should. I was only trying to explain how I made up my own mind.

Nationals is a big deal, and timing has a lot to do with everything since we do not have the kind of excruciating teardowns and post race tech some other classes have. It is unfortunate, I wish everyone had passed with flying colors. Maybe next year instead of pre race class tech that focuses on safety and aesthetics we should focus only on technical things to give folks time to make repairs. We're not out there to hang people, but to try to ensure a fair fight.

David, thanks for finally coming clean with your true feelings.

[Al Fernandez]

Bryan...assuming Adam would always choose the class over his own personal desires was my mistake.

[Fbody383]

Maybe next year instead of pre race class tech that focuses on safety and aesthetics we should focus only on technical things to give folks time to make repairs. We're not out there to hang people, but to try to ensure a fair fight. Glenn already said it, this just comes back to better rules consistency at the regional level. I don't think it was intentional, but the collective "we" did miss JKs subframe connectors.

If a region agrees to let a car run with a NON SAFETY RELATED fix-it ticket, cool; but the message should be, you WILL get DQd for that at Nationals. We should not compromise on safety, period. Nor should anyone be surprised or offended (not saying that anyone in this conversation is) that a non-compliant driver/car combo is DQd at Nationals.


David, thanks for finally coming clean with your true feelings. C'mon Al, you know I'm a fan. :wink:

I vote lock the thread; let's move forward.

[donovan]

David, thanks for finally coming clean with your true feelings.

Al, don't act like you don't know! You three are all well aware of how I feel about the departure.

Now please proceed to make me look bad, becuse that's always your next move.

DD

[mitchntx]

I vote lock the thread; let's move forward.

Good idea ... its worked so well in the past. :roll:

8)

[Adam Ginsberg]

Bryan...assuming Adam would always choose the class over his own personal desires was my mistake.

My personal desire was the car crowned the 2010 CMC National Champion would be legal.

That's a mistake?

[RichardP]

I was only trying to explain how I made up my own mind.


OK. That's fair.

By that logic, if Dave, Rob, Nick, etc. had showed up with lexan, they would have been given fix it tickets and been allowed to run illegally because it wouldn't have been a performance modification?


Richard P.

[Sidney]

Al notified all the CMC2 drivers that a CMC2 car didn't meet the track width rule by 1/8". He left it up to the drivers to decide. He wasn't consistent in letting the CMC driver's make the same decision. He didn't even let us know there was a car with lexan windows.

Adam,

God love ya but I'm calling BS. There is no way in hell any of you guys racing on the same track as Anders missed the huge chrome air scoops in his quarter windows! What did you think...he cut a hole in the glass? Yes they are illegal but they were illegal and clearly visible to anyone within a 1/4 mile of that thing from Wednesday till the last race on Saturday. You guys didn't say anything because he was running around at the back and off the podium all week. If you had a problem with them you missed your chance to bitch about them on Thursday after the first qualifying session! Al caught them (who wouldn't have!) and made a ruling.

See you at MidOhio in 2011,

Sidney
CMC2 #64

[Al Fernandez]

Come on Richard, if any of those guys had shown up with those quarter windows we'd still be laughing! This is not about the driver.

[GlennCMC70]

Maybe next year instead of pre race class tech that focuses on safety and aesthetics we should focus only on technical things to give folks time to make repairs. We're not out there to hang people, but to try to ensure a fair fight. Glenn already said it, this just comes back to better rules consistency at the regional level. I don't think it was intentional, but the collective "we" did miss JKs subframe connectors.

If a region agrees to let a car run with a NON SAFETY RELATED fix-it ticket, cool; but the message should be, you WILL get DQd for that at Nationals. We should not compromise on safety, period. Nor should anyone be surprised or offended (not saying that anyone in this conversation is) that a non-compliant driver/car combo is DQd at Nationals.


David, thanks for finally coming clean with your true feelings. C'mon Al, you know I'm a fan. :wink:

I vote lock the thread; let's move forward.

Me and Al tried to figure out how JK's sub's got missed. If finally dawned on AL that was the same weekend JK came up light on the scales. We sent him on his way, then we checked sub's. He likely got missed simply because he was never looked at.

As for regional exceptions - ALL regional directors have been told they can make exceptions regionally but they must tell their folks that those exceptions are limited to that region and do not apply to Nationals even if Nationals is held in their region. It has been covered.
As to why this car had this stuff on it (lexan), that is something the owner and the regional director will have to answer. I was told the owner just bought the car and it was sold to him as a CMC car. He didnt know any better. Still his fault, no doubt. But it shows that tech needs to be better at a regional level.

[K Shaw]

Yep


As for regional exceptions - ALL regional directors have been told they can make exceptions regionally but they must tell their folks that those exceptions are limited to that region and do not apply to Nationals even if Nationals is held in their region.

Have heard this from Dave and I am sure that other RM dudes have also.

[GlennCMC70]

Yep


As for regional exceptions - ALL regional directors have been told they can make exceptions regionally but they must tell their folks that those exceptions are limited to that region and do not apply to Nationals even if Nationals is held in their region.

Have heard this from Dave and I am sure that other RM dudes have also.

Fixed your quote.

[*quote] bla bla bla [*/quote]

remove the "*" and it will but the box around it. If you just hit the quote button provided to the right of a post, it will do this automatically. The break a persons long post up, simply add the required [*quote] or [*/quote] on each side of the comments.


You can also do [*quote=GlennCMC70] bs bs bs bs [*/quote] to lable who your quoting.
Again, remove the "*".

We all learned this in Director School. :wink:

[GlennCMC70]

Yep


As for regional exceptions - ALL regional directors have been told they can make exceptions regionally but they must tell their folks that those exceptions are limited to that region and do not apply to Nationals even if Nationals is held in their region.

Have heard this from Dave and I am sure that other RM dudes have also.

See?

[BlueFirePony]

Can you guys get a private chat room to do the internet tutorial? You're interfering with my drama entertainment. :twisted:
Let's see...rulez iz rulz...read the damn rulz...personal responsibility....tech is f'd up. shit getz missed...we're all human...Rob can drive anything OK...on with the show.

[roadracerwhite]

Maybe next year instead of pre race class tech that focuses on safety and aesthetics we should focus only on technical things to give folks time to make repairs. We're not out there to hang people, but to try to ensure a fair fight. Glenn already said it, this just comes back to better rules consistency at the regional level. I don't think it was intentional, but the collective "we" did miss JKs subframe connectors.

If a region agrees to let a car run with a NON SAFETY RELATED fix-it ticket, cool; but the message should be, you WILL get DQd for that at Nationals. We should not compromise on safety, period. Nor should anyone be surprised or offended (not saying that anyone in this conversation is) that a non-compliant driver/car combo is DQd at Nationals.


David, thanks for finally coming clean with your true feelings. C'mon Al, you know I'm a fan. :wink:

I vote lock the thread; let's move forward.

Me and Al tried to figure out how JK's sub's got missed. If finally dawned on AL that was the same weekend JK came up light on the scales. We sent him on his way, then we checked sub's. He likely got missed simply because he was never looked at.

As for regional exceptions - ALL regional directors have been told they can make exceptions regionally but they must tell their folks that those exceptions are limited to that region and do not apply to Nationals even if Nationals is held in their region. It has been covered.
As to why this car had this stuff on it (lexan), that is something the owner and the regional director will have to answer. I was told the owner just bought the car and it was sold to him as a CMC car. He didnt know any better. Still his fault, no doubt. But it shows that tech needs to be better at a regional level.

Hey, I f'd up and didn't catch it. So far I have worked on/built 4 of the 7 cars that are in our region, we don't have to tech much yet. Next year we will be picking it up.

He is also Robin Burnett's neighbor, he didn't catch it either. He hass built a few cmc cars too.

Bryan

[K Shaw]

Tough crowd. :lol:

[donovan]

Tough crowd. :lol:

Only behind the keyboards!

:-)

[Rob Liebbe]

...Rob can drive anything OK...

I once won a forklift race. :lol:

[BryanL]

...Rob can drive anything OK...

I once won a forklift race. :lol:

Did a good job turning glenns truck amphibious at tws too

[Al Fernandez]

Actually JK caught the fact that he never finished tech at Houston. He was overweight, went around and through the scales again and was still over weight so we didnt bother finishing tech on his car. We laughed when we realized had he been under weight he would've been DQd anyway. Well, sarcastic wtf laughter anyway. I'm sure it'll be funnier in a few more days.

[ShadowBolt]

Rob can drive anything with 30 more H/P than the rest of the field OK...on with the show.


Fixed it for ya.....

Just kidding Rob. You know I love ya.


JJ

[donovan]

Actually JK caught the fact that he never finished tech at Houston. He was overweight, went around and through the scales again and was still over weight so we didnt bother finishing tech on his car. We laughed when we realized had he been under weight he would've been DQd anyway. Well, sarcastic wtf laughter anyway. I'm sure it'll be funnier in a few more days.

For some reason I don't think it will ever be funny.

[Rob Liebbe]

Rob can drive anything with 30 more H/P than the rest of the field OK...on with the show.


Fixed it for ya.....

Just kidding Rob. You know I love ya.


JJ

Is that why you didn't answer my phone call yesterday? :roll: :)

[HoustonNW]

I didn't hear anything about new windshield banners (http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=37033).



For those who had not seen photos from the 2010 Nationals yet, each series design is a variation of the American red/white/blue colors.

AIX - red background with white lettering & blue trim
AI - blue background with white lettering & red trim
CMC2 - white background with blue lettering & red trim lines
CMC - grey background with white lettering & red trim lines

Do they look good? Hmmm, might be time to add some color to the Camaro to complement the banner.

[Fbody383]

I didn't hear anything about new windshield banners (http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=37033).



CMC - grey background with white lettering & red trim lines

Do they look good?

That red might clash with my orange.

What does the banner weigh?

[nasa-rm]

That red might clash with my orange.

What does the banner weigh?

I think they weigh a lot. We went across the scales on Thursday at 6 lbs over. End of main race on Saturday we were 30lbs over!!! :shock:

I hate to see what the car weighed after we applied the AI sticker over the top of the CMC for our supersize AIX run on Sunday. Must have been a lot because even though we pulled the restrictor and ballast, I still only did 2:18's.... :?