Performance Friction Brake Systems - AI/CMC2

[AJ@PST]

At PRI tomorrow PFC will be approaching me about race brake kits for the CMC2 and AI class cars. I have negotiated a $250 PFC part credit contingency for podium finishes. PFC will be sending engineers to PST to measure vehicles for the kits. They will be interested in 4th and 3rd gen camaros as well as Fox and SN95 Mustangs. They already have information on the S197 Mustang. The kits will retail at highest $2795/axle. Actuall kit retails are currently being negotiated depending on details. It will be a complete race kit in assembly. The individual CMC2 caliper cost will be $495 (PFC Zr34 Caliper). That is well under the CMC2 price limit. The rotor size will be determined by class and customer desire. The 34 caliper is a 4-Piston, 2-Pad, Monobloc design. The AI kit will be using the Zr45 caliper. The Zr44 is a caliper that was originally designed for use in the Grand-Am challenge series (Koni, Continental, etc). It is a forged monobloc that is cut and bolted together per regulations from that series. This caliper will allow for the 355mm rotors that are desired in the AI class cars. Please let me know your thoughts as I will be discussing this tomorrow and Friday with PFC. This has been a couple years in the making and now PFC is ready to deal and go! PST is the largest PFC distributor in Texas and can beat many of the prices available through other dealers. We are a tier 1 distributor.

[cjlmlml]

Looks great, keep us posted...

[GlennCMC70]

You can use my car for a 4th gen template.

Email sent.

[AJ@PST]

SO PFC is all in on this deal. I have the details for CMC2 that will run $2295/axle for a true race brake system. This is a monobloc, 4-piston, insulated piston, non dust-booted caliper. The rotors are 323mm x 32mm. These are the same heavy duty rotors used in Sprint Cup. The pads will be available from PFC in three different compounds for $152.78 retail on replacement costs. This system will be optimized for brake release and low drag. The release will be utilized for better balance entering the corner to give you the confidence to go deeper than the next guy. Low drag will aid with the horsepower and brake cooling efficiency.

[ShadowBolt]

I don't really want to spend the money on a big brake kit but I did have a lot of rotor trouble last year (breaking). I talked to AJ and he did not get any interest in this kit at all (well one guy wanted a free set but who doesn't). AJ had a great contingency program set-up but NASA said no way since they are in bed with Hawk. Anyone considering this set-up?


JJ

[mitchntx]

Not me.

I'm very disappointed that a class where you can field a car for $5K now needs $3K in brakes to be "competitive".

It's stupid and short-sighted.

[Sidney]

Not me.

I'm very disappointed that a class where you can field a car for $5K now needs $3K in brakes to be "competitive".

It's stupid and short-sighted.

I sort of agree with Mitch. I can lock up my tires now with stock LS1 brake calipers. My pads and rotors don't have any issues with abnormal wear and don't fade during 30 or 45 minute races. Pad cost is less with non-OEM calipers but doesn't pencil if I have to spend $2000 to get pads that are $50 less expensive.

Sidney
CMC2 #64
Midwest Region

[GlennCMC70]

I would love to have this kit. I built a new car instead.

[ShadowBolt]

Not me.

I'm very disappointed that a class where you can field a car for $5K now needs $3K in brakes to be "competitive".

It's stupid and short-sighted.


You are right Mitch.


I agree these brakes should have never been allowed in CMC but the door has been opened and just like government giveaways they will not go away. I was only thinking I could get out of the rotor breaking issue I'm having if I went to a two piece rotor set-up (in one day at Hallett and two days at ECR I have broken three rotors). Just talked to Todd at TCE and he said he could not promise me even double the life of my stock rotors if I bought his aluminum hats and Coleman rotor rings. Just the rotors (rings) are $139.00 each! I'm just not ready to spend $2000.00 for brakes on a car that is not worth 7 or 8 grand. I do catch myself thinking the old I gotta have them since others have them thoughts.


JJ

[AllZWay]

Not me.

I'm very disappointed that a class where you can field a car for $5K now needs $3K in brakes to be "competitive".

It's stupid and short-sighted.

Which is why this should have never been allowed in the first place.

[marshall_mosty]

Not me.

I'm very disappointed that a class where you can field a car for $5K now needs $3K in brakes to be "competitive".

It's stupid and short-sighted.


You are right Mitch.


I agree these brakes should have never been allowed in CMC but the door has been opened and just like government giveaways they will not go away. I was only thinking I could get out of the rotor breaking issue I'm having if I went to a two piece rotor set-up (in one day at Hallett and two days at ECR I have broken three rotors). Just talked to Todd at TCE and he said he could not promise me even double the life of my stock rotors if I bought his aluminum hats and Coleman rotor rings. Just the rotors (rings) are $139.00 each! I'm just not ready to spend $2000.00 for brakes on a car that is not worth 7 or 8 grand. I do catch myself thinking the old I gotta have them since others have them thoughts.


JJ
Jerry,
I would suggest getting StopTech hats/rotors. They wear like iron. I'm on my third set of PFC01's (9 hours of endurance racing and a season and a half of regular racing) and the rotors are absolutely fine. Replacements are expensive ($250 ea), but if you never need them, they don't cost anything...

I "think" you have Brembo's, correct? I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to run the StopTech floating rotors...

[mitchntx]

I'm just not ready to spend $2000.00 for brakes on a car that is not worth 7 or 8 grand. I do catch myself thinking the old I gotta have them since others have them thoughts.

JJ

Just let them go, Jerry. They can race for a few Toyo bucks and an internet signature.

Like most series, this one has become one of "haves" and "have nots". Spec Miata comes to mind.

The irony is those guys need us to help pay for the weekend. Once they price us out, where will they run?

I realize I can't make a run at a Championship nor have a prayer at Nationals. So, I pick the races I want to attend and I'll read about the rest.

So all the justification talk about "good for the series" really doesn't hold water.

[BryanL]

I'm just not ready to spend $2000.00 for brakes on a car that is not worth 7 or 8 grand. I do catch myself thinking the old I gotta have them since others have them thoughts.

JJ

Just let them go, Jerry. They can race for a few Toyo bucks and an internet signature.

Like most series, this one has become one of "haves" and "have nots". Spec Miata comes to mind.

The irony is those guys need us to help pay for the weekend. Once they price us out, where will they run?

I realize I can't make a run at a Championship nor have a prayer at Nationals. So, I pick the races I want to attend and I'll read about the rest.

So all the justification talk about "good for the series" really doesn't hold water.
Agree and disagree. The cynical side of me points to who were the first to get these big brake kits. I see two directors-one in Texas with one kit and one in Cali with another kit. I don't like it, but....

Since when did you have to have big brakes and more money to win a championship? Only person I can think of that has won a championship with upgraded brakes is actually Mitch.

I'm with you Mitch/Jerry and here to have fun but.... Mitch doesn't run his factory brakes. He had such issues with caliper spread that he has the upgraded package of brackets and corvette calipers. Now I know why he won the CMC2 championship in my rookie year :wink: Also interesting to see that Jerry has had some serious brake issues. Can breaking rotors be dangerous?

[Al Fernandez]

I havent talked to a single driver that has upgraded their brakes who believes it has improved their lap times. Believeing this is a requirement in order to be competitive is the same as believing you need a $4K carbon seat, or $3K data aquisition system, or a $2K paint job, yet nobody is concerned about those.

Invest in your car for the right reasons and everything will be fine.

[ShadowBolt]

Also interesting to see that Jerry has had some serious brake issues. Can breaking rotors be dangerous?[/quote]


DING, DING, DING. We have a winner. I have broken three rotors in the last one and a half events (never broke one before). These were all directional veined Centrics (SP) brand rotors. I'm going to order a set of ECB's and see how they do ($61.00 each). I would not mind spending the money to get the Aluminum hats from Todd at TCE and the Coleman rings but that set-up is over $500.00 for a pair. $250.00 for the hats and $139.00 for the rings. Todd said the rings are high because it's a special run that does not fit anything else. Adam had this set-up maybe he can tell me how much life he got out of them. I have thought alot about the danger of a rotor breaking while on the track.


JJ

[michaelmosty]

Over 4 1/2 years of racing I was on my third set of calipers with each of the first two sets lasting about 2 years before spreading. It sucks throwing away $200 pads after 1 event of racing.

I typically went through two sets of rotors each year with them cracking. I never had one crack all the way through but after about 3 events I would be able to feel the cracks with my fingers and would discard them at that time. The Crown Victoria rotors I ran a few years ago were non-directional rotors and I thought that was why I was cracking them. I then switched to Cobra rotors that were directional and still had cracking issues. (I tried rotors from A/Z and O'Reilly).
I have good ducting plates that are 1/8" away from the rotors and still had issues.

I know I'll never make back the money I paid for the StopTechs but I'm glad I bought them due to the lack of replacement and safety comfort.

[Adam Ginsberg]

To answer Jerry's questions about rotor life - I ran the TCE hats w/Coleman 12"x1.125" rotors. Unfortunately, I only got one season out of the rotors using (IIRC) Cobalt pads. The rotors cracked right at the end of the season, and it was very disappointing, given they cost $300 for the pair. Although I have no hard data to back it up, I suspect part of the reason for the for the premature failure was the dimensions - 1.125" thickness. With stock Cobra/PBR calipers, you can't use a thicker rotor due to pad (and caliper) dimensions.

I think I had about ~$700 into the set (hats @$250, mounting hardware @$80, rotors @$300) with the goal of increased longevity - and that didn't happen.

Jerry - if you are breaking rotors (at the hat/hub area), inspect (possibly replace) your hubs, as well as your spindles. I've been fortunate to have never broken a rotor while racing, but I am aware of several Ford drivers who've broken rotors at the track, but that appeared to be focused on the Brembo rotors with the fixed Brembo 2000 Cobra R calipers.

I have, however, cracked every set of rotors on my car, sometimes, all the way through, but radially, not at the hub/hat area. The cut down Cobra units would only last one season, the CV units would last ~1.5 - 2 seasons. Pads would only last 2 events. And this is with good brake ducts. The calipers that I'm removing from my car have been on there since 2006 (I think), and are in damn fine shape, boots not withstanding. Don't ask me how they've managed to survive so long. <shrug>

FWIW - I researched CMC2 legal brake kits, even purchased a set of Wilwood calipers and hats to build my own kit as I didn't want to spend ~$2000 on a kit. The primary reason I bought the StopTech kit had everything to do with Ryan Kim, and his willingness to work with our group, make necessary changes, and produce a quality kit that meets the needs of our drivers.

Ask Al how vehmently I fought the 4-piston brake rule (and continue to remind him my feelings about it), but as previously mentioned, the cat is out of the bag. So, I put a set on my car with the goal of increased longevity for pads and rotors. We'll see how that works out.

[GlennCMC70]

I'm not sure why a 3100lb Mustang has caliper spread issues.
I'm stil on my junk yard $50 calipers (for both, not each). They have never been rebuilt, not even before I put them on in 2004. I just installed them on my new car - didn't rebuild them.
I don't run cooling ducts either.

I'm not saying caliper spread is a myth, I've seen it. I am saying, the OEM stuff can work well. I also replace my rotors about once a year (prior to Nats) otherwise they crack. I use Wagner rotors from the local parts store. The pad you use is likely the issue. Lots of heat kills parts. To me, this is one of the reasons I like Carbotech stuff so much. Easy on parts. Lots of life.

W/ all this said, I'm still wanting to upgrade to 13" rortos and 4 pot calipers. I don't want to sacrifice the OEM parts availability I have now w/ an upgrade. Thicker pads would be nice for enduro use though. Increased weight or even an increase in rotational mass is not something I want. So for now, I'm looking at a C6 upgrade. 13" rotors and C6 2 piston calipers.

[michaelmosty]

The rotor failures Jerry and I have mentioned were all non hub related.

[ShadowBolt]

The rotor failures Jerry and I have mentioned were all non hub related.

Michael is correct. The three I broke did not break in the hub area or out on the track but during cooldown. Two rotors broke running Carbotech pads and this last one PFC01's (remember this was at ECR).


JJ

[ShadowBolt]

To answer Jerry's questions about rotor life - I ran the TCE hats w/Coleman 12"x1.125" rotors. Unfortunately, I only got one season out of the rotors using (IIRC) Cobalt pads. The rotors cracked right at the end of the season, and it was very disappointing, given they cost $300 for the pair. Although I have no hard data to back it up, I suspect part of the reason for the for the premature failure was the dimensions - 1.125" thickness. With stock Cobra/PBR calipers, you can't use a thicker rotor due to pad (and caliper) dimensions.

I think I had about ~$700 into the set (hats @$250, mounting hardware @$80, rotors @$300) with the goal of increased longevity - and that didn't happen.

Jerry - if you are breaking rotors (at the hat/hub area), inspect (possibly replace) your hubs, as well as your spindles. I've been fortunate to have never broken a rotor while racing, but I am aware of several Ford drivers who've broken rotors at the track, but that appeared to be focused on the Brembo rotors with the fixed Brembo 2000 Cobra R calipers.

I have, however, cracked every set of rotors on my car, sometimes, all the way through, but radially, not at the hub/hat area. The cut down Cobra units would only last one season, the CV units would last ~1.5 - 2 seasons. Pads would only last 2 events. And this is with good brake ducts. The calipers that I'm removing from my car have been on there since 2006 (I think), and are in damn fine shape, boots not withstanding. Don't ask me how they've managed to survive so long. <shrug>

FWIW - I researched CMC2 legal brake kits, even purchased a set of Wilwood calipers and hats to build my own kit as I didn't want to spend ~$2000 on a kit. The primary reason I bought the StopTech kit had everything to do with Ryan Kim, and his willingness to work with our group, make necessary changes, and produce a quality kit that meets the needs of our drivers.

Ask Al how vehmently I fought the 4-piston brake rule (and continue to remind him my feelings about it), but as previously mentioned, the cat is out of the bag. So, I put a set on my car with the goal of increased longevity for pads and rotors. We'll see how that works out.


Thanks Adam,

If I could get a full season out of a two piece rotor I would go for it. I just ordered two ECB rotors at $60.00 each and I have to replace them every other event. So the $300.00 for the Coleman rings is about the same and I don't have to deal with it three times a year.


JJ

[marshall_mosty]

Back in 2006 when my AI car more resembled a current day CMC-2 car, I was cracking "Powerslot" rotors every 2-3 weekends. This was without ABS on a 2900 lb car. I was using Cobalt VR+ pads (no longer available, but one hell of a pad, bite wise).

My cracks were not related to the slotting, as they didn't start at, nor propogate to one of the machined slots. They were all radial in nature, starting at about 50% from the root of the rotor face. All were "post race", as I heard a "ping" in the pits or waiting in tech.

Also, pads were only lasting 3 track days. At $185/set, that was getting damn expensive.

My StopTechs will get almost a season out of one set of pads ($285/set) and the rotors have approx 15 hours of track time between the season Jeff Brooks put on the kit, the two enduro's I've run, and the other seasonal racing I've done in the last 3 years... They still are fine, no hint of cracking.

My idea on the kit was to get a brake setup that I didn't have to worry about and replace rotors and pads as frequently. Also, the safety aspect was paramount. Another plus was the ability to modulate the brakes. If the stock Cobra PBR calipers had three "clicks" of modulation ability, the StopTech's have ten. Much easier to work with "on the edge". With ABS that goes out the window, but I've had ABS issues in the past where I've had to drive it without the "crutch".

My thoughts is it's well worth the money if it's in your reach, however is not necessary to run a 10/10th's lap. It just makes running 9.8/10th's of a lap every time a bit easier to "mentally" deal with.

YMMV

[michaelmosty]

I'm not sure why a 3100lb Mustang has caliper spread issues.
I'm stil on my junk yard $50 calipers (for both, not each). They have never been rebuilt, not even before I put them on in 2004. I just installed them on my new car - didn't rebuild them.
I don't run cooling ducts either.


I'll just add that to the list of advantages the Camaro has over the Mustang. :wink: :P

[edrock96GT]

I havent talked to a single driver that has upgraded their brakes who believes it has improved their lap times.

I dunno, although my car still has a ways to go, I'm sure it wouldn't be half as good as it is without the Brembos on the front.

I have also had them on the car since 2003 and last replaced rotors in 2005. The current rotors have 2 seasons of racing on them and the pads lasted through both seasons minus ECR (replaced them just prior).

The initial cost is a bit more, but the durability, reliability and performance is well worth it IMO, although I would say that they would probably be better marketed toward AI drivers who are sometimes more willing (and are almost obligated) to spend a little more to be competitive.

[GlennCMC70]

Also, if you have cooling ducts, make sure they are blowing on nothing but the center of the rotor. If they blow on the inner face it will cause uneven cooling and crack the rotors.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Michael is correct. The three I broke did not break in the hub area or out on the track but during cooldown. Two rotors broke running Carbotech pads and this last one PFC01's (remember this was at ECR).

Ah, so you've done basically the same thing many other drivers have - cracked a rotor radially. While the life span (or lack thereof) in your case is considerably worse than others (myself included), it's not uncommon.

I used to run Cobalt VR's, then switched to Carbotech XP10's. The rotors will heat check within a weekend, but they have managed to survive until the end of the season (or longer). The set I just pulled off my car (Crown Vic 12") were installed at the start of 2010 (replaced, free of charge, from AutoZone :)), and made it through a total of 4 events - Feb SPIR, June SPIR, Sept MMP/Nats, and Nov BW. SPIR is not a brake friendly track, and neither is MMP, but those rotors could easily have gone another 4 or so events.

[Al Fernandez]

The 12.2" roundy round rotors on my 3350lb 4th gen have been there for two full seasons. I would continue to use them if I were running it next weekend. The car does have ducts from close to the center of the nose to the center of the rotor. I try to give them a good cool down lap and I run carbotech pads.