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cjlmlml
07-16-2006, 03:53 PM
I spoke to Shannon yesterday as there are more rumors still flying around.


Me.

"Shannon , I have now heard another rumor I wanted to clarify. I heard John George admitted to you guys (NASA) that he had an illegal flip chip in his car all of last season."

Shannon.

" He told us that, but said it was only for one race."

Mike Bell
07-16-2006, 04:21 PM
YGBSM. :roll:

mitchntx
07-16-2006, 04:23 PM
IIRC, Glenn had his ROTY stripped of him last year for cheating.

AI#97
07-16-2006, 04:43 PM
I guess I need to make sure I have paid all my phone bills.....mine has yet to ring from the 281......??? Am I banned and just don't know it?!! :?

donovan
07-16-2006, 04:48 PM
WTF!

So, He admitted to cheating... and NASA Texas knew about it...?

What did they do or are they doing about JG and his Championship?

Are they just sweeping this under the rug?

DD

GlennCMC70
07-16-2006, 04:54 PM
IIRC, Glenn had his ROTY stripped of him last year for cheating.

yep, all over 5 hp on a dyno that we later learned was not capable of producing accurate results and was very poorly maintained and out of calibration.

wow, this John G. info is some heavy shit. :evil:

mitchntx
07-16-2006, 05:11 PM
Well, your 5 hp was for more than 1 race, so ....

GlennCMC70
07-16-2006, 05:16 PM
Well, your 5 hp was for more than 1 race, so ....

nope, i only used those 5 hp for one race, honest. :roll:

chicane23
07-16-2006, 06:13 PM
Chris this is total BULLSHIT!

I have never owned a flip chip in my life nor did I ever cheat in my blue car. I could have run around the track with 6 cylinders and no one but Mike P. could have caught me. I have a lot of pride and I will not cheat in a race! That is a promise to everyone!

I had a chip in the blue car last year that I got from Dallas Mustang when I was trying to get sponsorship from them.

Wayne was with me and it was a Superchip that needs to come out of the car to be programmed.

This chip decreased my over all rwhp, but gave 2-4 rwhp across the whole power curve.

So a word to the wise, Kiss my ASS and stop trying to start shit!

I will be calling Shannon!

BTW, tell Richard your mechanic I said hello!

Waco Racer
07-16-2006, 06:48 PM
Chris,

Shannon was not a part of any technical conversation. John never admitted to any flip chip in his car ever. This matter is closed.

Clifton

Waco Racer
07-16-2006, 06:51 PM
Phone calls will resume tomorrow.

mitchntx
07-16-2006, 07:01 PM
This is better than any soap opera ... First Hallett-gate, now Flip-gate. 8)

BTW ... what is a flip chip? :?:

chicane23
07-16-2006, 07:08 PM
A chip that can have two or three different engine tunes and you can switch between them with just a flick of a switch.

Very visible to the eye and very illegal in AI!

mitchntx
07-16-2006, 07:23 PM
1 computer with multiple tunes?

How does that work? In the GM world, the ECM is locked till access with the ALDL port. And it's certainly not "switchable".

I've heard of fooling the AIT and knock sensor, but completely different fuel maps and timing curves?

Interesting ...

AI#97
07-16-2006, 07:24 PM
This is better than any soap opera ... First Hallett-gate, now Flip-gate. 8)

BTW ... what is a flip chip? :?:

Something that about 4 manufacturers sell for Fords....want to come to the good side and play?!!! They are actually kind of cool. I had one last year that would allow me to turn the chip off at a stop light and the idle rpm would drop to 600 and just thump....then die! Pretty neat stuff if you run nitrous but not very practical. I have since gotten rid of it to be in compliance this year and have an SCT chip to keep the motor happy.

Given all the crap going around about cheating....I am dynoing my car at HPP on Friday...ANYONE wanting to watch is more than welcomed to stop in and be bored stiff...... :roll:

mitchntx
07-16-2006, 07:27 PM
Oh, OK ... I know what you guys are talking about.

I had a friend with a Lighning that had a rotary switch on the dash that changed the tune.

This is cool.

Maybe I do need come over to the blue side. You guys have all the neat toys.

mitchntx
07-16-2006, 07:31 PM
Phone calls will resume tomorrow.

Hey, how about giving me a call. I would like someone to chat with. The only person who ever calls me is Glenn. And I've began screening those calls.

Todd said he would call me this weekend and he never did. My feelings are hurt.

Garbage
07-16-2006, 07:47 PM
First the French try to discredit Lance Armstrong, and now Chris Lyons wants to discredit the best driver in the series. That is pretty freaking weak and a definite low blow.

Funny thing happened at the last MSRH race. JG was actually running on 7 cyclinders and still stayed ahead of the pack. He also raced in a car with no brakes at the first MSRH race this season. He won all four races that weekend.

Point being: if you can't beat him then slam him publicly. Huh?

Don't throw stones in a glass house.

David Armstrong
AIX

mitchntx
07-16-2006, 07:49 PM
now Chris Lyons wants to discredit the best driver in the series.

David Armstrong
AIX

That's not what I heard Eric SchuVarner say ... where is he, anyway?

Boudy
07-16-2006, 08:33 PM
That's not what I heard Eric SchuVarner say ... where is he, anyway?

I was wondering the same thing. I don't think we've heard from him in a couple weeks.

Boudy

chicane23
07-16-2006, 08:46 PM
First the French try to discredit Lance Armstrong, and now Chris Lyons wants to discredit the best driver in the series. That is pretty freaking weak and a definite low blow.

Funny thing happened at the last MSRH race. JG was actually running on 7 cyclinders and still stayed ahead of the pack. He also raced in a car with no brakes at the first MSRH race this season. He won all four races that weekend.

Point being: if you can't beat him then slam him publicly. Huh?

Don't throw stones in a glass house.

David Armstrong
AIX

Thank you David!

Todd Covini
07-17-2006, 01:58 AM
OK, you kids. Play nice!

Rumors and BS are still flying around back and forth.
Let's try to keep things to a low rumble and remember that we do this for "FUN". You guys really know how to put the F-U in FUN!

In the past week I have heard stories of this and stories of that.
Flip chip this, ballast that, heads here, cam there, mill this, bore that, conspiracies, money laundering, gay lovers, you name it!!!

I am tired it. This is what happens when "everyone is the series director". Stop the pissing contest before it starts ruining everything.

Am I the only one who sees the silliness of fast guys accusing slower guys of cheating? Am I the only one who hears one series lobbing hand grenades into the other series for no apparent good reason?

Can we please just stand down and chill out so we can work thru things??

-=- Todd

Todd Covini
07-17-2006, 02:02 AM
Phone calls will resume tomorrow.

Hey, how about giving me a call. I would like someone to chat with. The only person who ever calls me is Glenn. And I've began screening those calls.

Todd said he would call me this weekend and he never did. My feelings are hurt.

Hope I'm included in those calls!!!
(Mitch...I had guests this weekend and never got a chance to call you. I hope you still enjoyed the weekend.)

-=- T

Mike Bell
07-17-2006, 05:59 AM
Todd,

I respect your opinion and position here. I have no doubt you are tired of it but in my opinion you guys are trying to put the cows back into a burning barn. First put out the fire(s), then gather the herd back up.

Meantime, there is so much background chatter that we are starting to cross lines that can't be mended over a cold drink and a handshake. I don't think anyone wants to see things deteriorate to that point.

Individual phone calls may not be the answer. Seems that some different or additional info is being shared out there as a result of these calls with NASA TX. That does little to quell the rumors IMHO. I've heard enough stuff in the past 6 days that there's no way to know what came from whom and what is even being dealt with by NASA TX behind the scenes.

How about a statement from NASA TX dealing with the current issues? Something prior to TWS? Having Shannon tell Chris something and then having Clifton come in here and say the matter is closed indicates that all may not be on the same page yet.

mitchntx
07-17-2006, 06:49 AM
Todd/Mike ... I couldn't agree more.

Like in my post on NASA Forums, a simple, short "press release" will nip these things in the bud.

Just a thought ...

Are the folks in charge trying too hard to be our friends too?

In a relationship where there are managers and worker bees or parents and children, blurring the line of who's in charge vs just one of the guys makes it difficult for concise and honest dialogue. Too many times the ones in charge are afraid of stepping on toes and the masses don't want to put their "buddies" in a bind.

Is this the kind of thing we're seeing here?

To be blunt and honest, giving Bell the credit, it's time to empty our pockets onto the table, sort through the mess seperating lint from change and get on with this.

Again, the noncommunication is what's ripping things apart. Chris' initial post and John's subsequent answer is a prime example of just that.

As adults, we are all responsible for our actions. If I chose a path, I should be held accountable for that choice. There is no shame in being honest. Likewise, there is no shame in asking questions.

Mike Bell
07-17-2006, 07:04 AM
Regardless of the lint or change, I'm interested in going back to the track where we all can smile, shake hands, and go have some F-U-N as Covini puts it. Good times with good friends/new friends.

If I have to go back to DE's to get there I'll do it.

donovan
07-17-2006, 08:14 AM
...You guys really know how to put the F-U in FUN!...

...In the past week I have heard stories of this and stories of that.
Flip chip this, ballast that, heads here, cam there, mill this, bore that, conspiracies, money laundering, gay lovers, you name it!!!...



Todd, you are killing me...

Well, I guess someone got confused and Chris got some bad information?? If that is the case we really really really need to work on our communication skills. Have I said that before?

Just the idea that someone is cheating pisses me off to no end. I sure hope we don't have any issues with this in our series.

DD

Rob Liebbe
07-17-2006, 10:32 AM
"Can't we all just get along?" - Rodney King

AI#97
07-17-2006, 10:41 AM
In the past week I have heard stories of ..... conspiracies, money laundering, gay lovers, you name it!!!



Todd, please keep your personal life out of this mess!!! :wink:

I think everyone needs to just shut up, build their cars, bring them to the track and race. The lack of respect for each other that has been going on sort of concerns me for the instances when we are out on track and the decision to lift so you don't spin "that damn cheeter"....sorry Glenn, I will correct your spelling later!! :wink: , aren't made with the correct outcome. I hope you guys are able to get past all this....?

I think you guys just need to drop it and put all this BS behind us so we don't lose sight of the goal....to have someplace enjoyable to race next year with competitors to race against.

I totally support any effort WE ALL develop to police rules compliance and to keep open lines of communication with our ruling dictatorship which I suggested several weeks ago....We will work through this if all the BS in the back ground doesn't sour us too badly first....RELAX.

David Love AI27
07-17-2006, 09:59 PM
Regardless of the lint or change, I'm interested in going back to the track where we all can smile, shake hands, and go have some F-U-N as Covini puts it. Good times with good friends/new friends.

If I have to go back to DE's to get there I'll do it.

one of the reasons I have tried to stay out of this crap... I don't care what is under the hood of the CMC#5, I don't care about some kind of chip in the AI#23, either driver can kick my butt on the race track. I had tons of fun racing with MB at Houston and we are not even in the same race class. I come to the track to do something I have dreamed of as a kid. My main concern is pissing of you CMCers because my driving skills (or lack there of) tend to put my back there in the middle of you all. If I had a problem with a racer/car I would put my money where my mouth is and file a complaint in the proper manner. I am building a car for my daughter that will not have the motor or suspension to run with most of the other CMC cars, but we are going to have fun. I am building a Mini Cooper racer with less than 60 hp for my mom and we are going to have fun. A attended a SVT event in a showroom stock Neon and had a blast ( the owner of a GT-40 got out of that POS and said "damn, that car is quick"... I'll never forget that...


GUYS... I have a "Most Improved Driver Award" framed in my house displayed for everyone to see, not that I believe it was earned but it always leads to a conversation about racing... it is what I love and I love doing it with you, A GOOD weekend for me is not messing up my car, a GREAT weekend in not being lapped... We are not the only race group in NASATX and there is no reason we can't handle most of the issues "in- house". I don't want to go back to DEs and I don't wnat to run TT, I just want to get this shit behind us and go racing!!! How do we do it??? There has to be rules and penalties for breaking them, but I believe there has to be some way to measure "intent". I can't wait for TWS... like the little boy said on the commercial "I'm TOO excited to sleep!!!"

oz98cobra
07-18-2006, 06:28 AM
... In the past week I have heard stories of this and stories of that.
Flip chip this, ballast that, heads here, cam there, mill this, bore that, ...



You forgot "dogbox this"? ;)

I agree with Mike - the personal phone calls were useful, but we need to see some outcome ASAP to put out the fires?

AI#97
07-18-2006, 08:08 AM
I can't wait for TWS... like the little boy said on the commercial "I'm TOO excited to sleep!!!"

me either....the car is just begging to get flogged on already!!! I am thinking of doing an AX this weekend and then some double secret testing next weekend at an undisclosed location! :wink:

marshall_mosty
07-18-2006, 12:29 PM
I am thinking of doing an AX this weekend and then some double secret testing next weekend at an undisclosed location! :wink:

Double secret testing will get you double secret probation. 8)

donovan
07-18-2006, 03:19 PM
One time in Band Camp....

cjlmlml
07-18-2006, 10:29 PM
Ok, since I started this post initially, I feel I should wrap this up and give you my key points.

Specifically to John: (and everyone really)

1. What would you have done with this information? (Your words)

Last Saturday, I heard a rumor. In the interest of our new communication policy, I called Shannon. I didnt go to anyone else for verification.

I asked her my question. She was obviously familiar with the subject matter and answered me without hesitation.

"Yes, but he said it was for only one race"


At this point , I did not know when or for how long this had "allegedly" been going on.

According to CCR, if cheating is known about, it needs to be immediately dealt with. It appeared to me it hadnt been dealt with.

That is when I posted the thread. Sunday.

Late Sunday night, I got an email from Shannon saying she had a chance to confer with Clifton and wanted the 3 of us to do a conference call on Monday.


It was on this conference call that Clifton informed me that Shannons statement was not true and no admission had ever been made by John.



2. I never said you were cheating. I relayed information I had, and Shannon confirmed to me at the time.


3. If you were not cheating , I sincerely apologize to you John.

I would feel the same way if it was any NASA TX racer.



4. I never questioned your driving skill. Everyone knows you are a very good driver.



5. My intention was not to divide people, I was frustrated with what I knew at the time.



I have learned a lot from this experience and maybe everyone else has as well.



PS To John,

If you honestly think you can beat my car when you are on foot, bring it.

chicane23
07-19-2006, 09:30 AM
Thank you Chris!

I greatly appreciate your apologize and you are now off my list! ;-)

This is how things get started and I hope all racers have learn from this whole episode of “The Young and the Race less”

I wish you all luck at TWS and please be safe!

mitchntx
07-19-2006, 12:17 PM
I greatly appreciate your apologize and you are now off my list! ;-)


Just so I know ... am I on your list? :cry:

GlennCMC70
07-19-2006, 12:21 PM
I greatly appreciate your apologize and you are now off my list! ;-)


Just so I know ... am I on your list? :cry:

yes you are. i dime'ed you out in order to get me off the list. :P

Todd Covini
07-19-2006, 12:57 PM
Thank you Chris!

I greatly appreciate your apologize and you are now off my list! ;-)

This is how things get started and I hope all racers have learn from this whole episode of “The Young and the Race less”

I wish you all luck at TWS and please be safe!

Excellent! I'm glad we are making some progress to resolving this whole soap-opera. I too had heard about this alleged "flip switch" and am glad to hear that this was all a big misunderstanding based upon hearsay and rumor.

In the interest of moving forward and putting all of this behind us, John, could you respond to the other allegations that were also made about your new car?

1) Does your new AI car have more than 150 lbs of ballast? (violation of AI rule 7.5)
2) Does your new AI car have a "dogbox" transmission? (violation of AI rule 7.9.2)

(As you say, "direct questions will get a direct answer.")

I've received credible information of such items in the past week or so and rather than approach Shannon, or add fuel to the burning rumor mill, I figured I would simply ask you directly.

Please "clear the air" and address these directly so that we can move forward with a clean slate and stop the volleyball effect of lobbing accusations back and forth. Thanks in advance!

-=- Todd

AI#97
07-19-2006, 01:19 PM
1) Does your new AI car have more than 150 lbs of ballast? (violation of AI rule 7.5)
2) Does your new AI car have a "dogbox" transmission? (violation of AI rule 7.9.2)

(-=- Todd

Ok, what is a "dog box" transmission?

I realize John Doesn't need me to speak for him but I feel compelled to defend a fellow competitor and friend.... to answer the first point, no, he doesn't. I called him out on this to him DIRECTLY back when he debuted the car. The only question I had was is it allowed to be outside the body. I re-read the rules and yes it can, only must be mounted VERY well.

Todd, I like your approach of going directly to the horses mouth for answers, but let's not start speculation by doing so in a public forum. I confronted john about this in private and I would expect EVERYONE in this group to do the same to keep the rumor mill empty. If this scrutiny of our top competitors is allowed to run rampant in public, then I guess I need to slow down before the microscope is aimed in my direction.... remember, this is a glass house!!!!

What is even more POINTLESS about all this is the fact John has decided to not return to the series (I wonder why? :roll: ) and there is still people around trying to kick him in the gut....WTF guys?! Let's go race and leave it all out on the track!!! :evil:

j3ffbrooks
07-19-2006, 01:42 PM
Ok, what is a "dog box" transmission?

Not my tech....quick Google search found this.



Production car gearboxes have helical cut gears to keep them quiet. The constant mesh and thrust of the helical cut design keeps the gears quiet but they generally not as strong as straight cut gears and do not transmit torque as efficiently. Straight cut teeth are ususally bigger but there is backlash and the teeth knocking together produce the distinctive gear whine. Gear profile has a lot to do with how much noise there is, some straight cut gearsets are not that noisy at all.

Production gearboxes also use synchronizers to provide smooth, quiet shifting. The synchro's job is to "grab" the gear when you are shifting and match it to the same speed as the driven shaft to provide a smooth silent shift with no grinding. This happens as you move the lever into the gate for that particular gear.
The trouble with synchros is they slow down the shifting process and they have little teeth which aren't so strong compared to the mysterious "dogs". The engaging teeth on the gears are equally small so you could potentially strip all the little synchro engaging teeth (you can also call them dog teeth) off the gear and have no more drive in that gear even though all the gear teeth are in perfect condition!

A dogshift box does without the synchronizers. Instead you have 6 or 8 big dog "teeth" on the gear. On the shift slider you may have a corresponding number of "slots" that the dogs fit into. The are other designs as well. When you shift since there is no synchro to make the gear speeds match you have to match revs with a blip of the throttle for a smooth shift. But that's not necessarily accurate, really, because you can crash it right in. That's why they are also known as "crashboxes". The clutch is not required when shifting. When accelerating a quick, partial lift of the throttle will do. When downshifting a blip of the throttle to match revs will ensure a smooth shift. A dogbox will shift as fast as you can move the gear lever! No waiting for synchros. When you try to shift slowly is when you are most likely to grind a dogbox! When driving around on the street I will usually use the clutch but in competition the clutch is only for starts. One advantage is being able to downshift in a corner without the clutch while left foot braking.
Also, the dog mechanisms don't take up as much room as synchros so a wider gear can be fitted.

AI#97
07-19-2006, 01:43 PM
One time in Band Camp....

If you finish that statement with " I stuck a flute up my pussy..." I will pay for the RFA to make you pit on the OUTSIDE of the track!!!! :lol:

mitchntx
07-19-2006, 01:45 PM
Matt, your points about taking this private are noted and probably the best tactic.

However, in one leap of faith, Todd has attempted to get clarification AND squelch the rumor mill.

I can see both sides of this. But in this case, I don;t think Todd was doing anything for John to have to take a defensive stand. I really think it was an attempt to stop this madness ...

AI#97
07-19-2006, 02:23 PM
Matt, your points about taking this private are noted and probably the best tactic.

However, in one leap of faith, Todd has attempted to get clarification AND squelch the rumor mill.

I can see both sides of this. But in this case, I don;t think Todd was doing anything for John to have to take a defensive stand. I really think it was an attempt to stop this madness ...

I agree and Todd's enthusiasm to end all this is good....but I think we just all need to think about what we type here and the reactions that it gets. I have been guilty of it too and have seen the error in my ways. My biggest point was that if I am lucky enough to win the AI series this year, or even take second to Mr. Marvel, I only hope I am not subjected to this public scrutiny from the peanut gallery rumor grapevine. I personally think we need to deal with all of our personal business and issues with other drivers directly and not on this forum. We need to be talking about the technical aspects of parts, pieces and what have you...hell, even a good Mustang vs. F-body war but the accusations, assumptions and just general bickering needs to go away. Easiest way to do that is to deem all this inappropriate for this forum and to just have Face to Face meetings to discuss/review and resolve all of this stuff. I think we are all adult enough and are enough of friends to handle this....the fukcing interweb just doesn't create a great environment for this kind of thing.

chicane23
07-19-2006, 02:46 PM
I greatly appreciate your apologize and you are now off my list! ;-)


Just so I know ... am I on your list? :cry:

Mitch, you are not on the list, at this time. ;-)

chicane23
07-19-2006, 02:50 PM
First off, thank you Matt you are a good man.

Not that any of this matter any more, but my comment are inline below.



1) Does your new AI car have more than 150 lbs of ballast? (violation of AI rule 7.5)

No, I have less than 125 lbs in there at this time and at Houston I had less than 150 lbs! This put my car 100 lbs over weight in Houston, which is why I removed some ballast for Hallett. With this being a new car and the scale a bit crazy I was just trying to stay legal.


2) Does your new AI car have a "dogbox" transmission? (violation of AI rule 7.9.2)

No, I have a Tremec TKO with synchros.


(As you say, "direct questions will get a direct answer.")

And yes Todd they will, but please be very careful...you may not like my answers to some questions!

mitchntx
07-19-2006, 03:06 PM
I greatly appreciate your apologize and you are now off my list! ;-)


Just so I know ... am I on your list? :cry:

Mitch, you are not on the list, at this time. ;-)

Wow ... that's load off my mind.

I was afraid I was gonna have to put on my car cover and load my car in the trailer each time I came off the track.

I mean plain sight is really what you can see, right?

mitchntx
07-19-2006, 03:10 PM
OK ... who hacked Matt's user ID? ;)



Matt, your points about taking this private are noted and probably the best tactic.

However, in one leap of faith, Todd has attempted to get clarification AND squelch the rumor mill.

I can see both sides of this. But in this case, I don;t think Todd was doing anything for John to have to take a defensive stand. I really think it was an attempt to stop this madness ...

I agree and Todd's enthusiasm to end all this is good....but I think we just all need to think about what we type here and the reactions that it gets. I have been guilty of it too and have seen the error in my ways. My biggest point was that if I am lucky enough to win the AI series this year, or even take second to Mr. Marvel, I only hope I am not subjected to this public scrutiny from the peanut gallery rumor grapevine. I personally think we need to deal with all of our personal business and issues with other drivers directly and not on this forum. We need to be talking about the technical aspects of parts, pieces and what have you...hell, even a good Mustang vs. F-body war but the accusations, assumptions and just general bickering needs to go away. Easiest way to do that is to deem all this inappropriate for this forum and to just have Face to Face meetings to discuss/review and resolve all of this stuff. I think we are all adult enough and are enough of friends to handle this....the fukcing interweb just doesn't create a great environment for this kind of thing.

Damn Matt ... that is well put and well said.

We seem to take this and ourselves a little too seriously at times. I said WE as I certainly do.

Todd Covini
07-19-2006, 03:14 PM
Thank you, John. That is exactly what I wanted to hear. I'm glad that the accusations were false and you have answered them personally and in good-consciousness. (sp?)

Let's now wipe this slate clean and move forward. No more attacks and counter-attacks from ANYONE.

The stage is set for another "new norm"....the 3 C's.

Communication
Consistency
Compromise

You'll all see a State of the Union from me this week in the Announcements section and I'm not going to dwell on Hallett. (I wasn't there.) Simply discuss how we got there....and how we're going to run things now that is behind us.

Stay tuned....

-=- Todd

AI#97
07-19-2006, 03:33 PM
OK ... who hacked Matt's user ID? ;)



Damn Matt ... that is well put and well said.

We seem to take this and ourselves a little too seriously at times. I said WE as I certainly do.

Well, I think I will attribute it to growing up and getting past being the dumb f'n rookie?

Mike Bell
07-25-2006, 06:30 AM
You'll all see a State of the Union from me this week in the Announcements section and I'm not going to dwell on Hallett. (I wasn't there.) Simply discuss how we got there....and how we're going to run things now that is behind us.

Stay tuned....

-=- Todd

Todd, any ETA on that State of the U message? I'm looking at a pile of parts in my garage, could use some inspiration............... :lol:

Todd Covini
07-25-2006, 09:43 AM
I'm looking at a pile of parts in my garage, could use some inspiration............... :lol:

You and me, both, Brother Bell.

Will try to get something out in the next day or so!

-=- Todd