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View Full Version : CMC and header wrap on exhaust manifolds - not legal.



GlennCMC70
02-16-2012, 12:41 PM
Seems we have some folks who thought the use of header wrap was legal on OEM manifolds as well as aftermarket headers. I can assure you it is not legal. This has been very clear w/ the Director staff as long as I have been racing in CMC (I asked in 2004) that it is not legal. You can use it on any part beyond the manifold itself, but not on the manifolds. If you have it, you need to remove it to be legal for 2012. Platforms allowed to have non-OEM manifolds can use a part that is sold w/ an exhaust coating, but that does not allow the use of a header wrap.
Sorry if you have this. Please do not make me issue a DQ.

I know of two folks at this point (no need to rat yourself out). No need to name names. Lets just get it resolved.

BryanL
02-16-2012, 06:20 PM
I won't make Cresson but that cheating confident bastard BL will be pulling the restrictor and weight to play with Dr. Frankunsteen and his fire breathing carb at TWS. Just hoping to be able to stay close enough to the trophy girls so I can pass them on the straight every time at TWS then make "Crazy Ivan" turns the rest of the lap to keep them from passing me.

I sure thought it was legal.

Glenn-are the $7 can of DEI Hi-Temp Silicone Coatings legal on the manifolds?

GlennCMC70
02-16-2012, 06:44 PM
I used this:
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/VHT0/SP102.oap?ck=Search_paint_N0797_-1_1753&keyword=paint&pt=N0797&ppt=C0171

David Love AI27
02-16-2012, 09:46 PM
I won't make Cresson but that cheating confident bastard BL will be pulling the restrictor and weight to play with Dr. Frankunsteen and his fire breathing carb at TWS. Just hoping to be able to stay close enough to the trophy girls so I can pass them on the straight every time at TWS then make "Crazy Ivan" turns the rest of the lap to keep them from passing me.

I sure thought it was legal.

Glenn-are the $7 can of DEI Hi-Temp Silicone Coatings legal on the manifolds?

Join the 3 car as we plull balast and run AI...

BryanL
02-17-2012, 10:02 AM
Glenn that is a Ceramic Coating according to the description so according to the rules that would be illegal. I think you should be allowed to be use it and agree with your interpretation but there shouldn't have to be any interpreting. This class of racing doesn't need to be subject to pyrometer reading of manifolds to determine if your coating is legal and mine isn't. Al-get the rule clarified. There is a poll on the national website if you care to spend a minute and go vote on the matter. I can tell you the results conflict with the current rule.

Sounds good Love-if the trophy girls of AI are still wounded and we can get 5 cars then tire races could be interesting.

jdlingle
02-17-2012, 10:31 AM
Yes guys please go vote on the poll on the national site. No matter which way you feel the more votes on there the more it will garner the attention of the rules makers. It is currently overwhelmingly in favor of allowing header wrap and coatings but is still a small sample size.

GlennCMC70
02-17-2012, 03:15 PM
It may be a small sample but....... The odds of for/against votes is still the same for 20 as it is for 100. I hate it when folks say "well not all CMC'ers are on this site to vote, so this poll is not accuate......" BS. What it says is of the people who voted, a higher percent of racers feel differen't that the majority of Directors.
Thumbs up John.

Adam Ginsberg
02-17-2012, 03:18 PM
Please do not make me issue a DQ.

Really?!?! Issue a DQ for header wrap? Especially if they are ok on the dyno?? A note in a logbook (the first time) to simply remove it for the next event isn't suitable enough?? For an item that is questionable, at best for being a "performance enhancement"??

Holy shit, that's completely ridiculous, and severe overkill at a regional event.

Did you forget why we do this, Glenn? It's for good close racing, and fun.


It may be a small sample but....... The odds of for/against votes is still the same for 20 as it is for 100. I hate it when folks say "well not all CMC'ers are on this site to vote, so this poll is not accuate......" BS. What it says is of the people who voted, a higher percent of racers feel differen't that the majority of Directors.
Thumbs up John.

To make a poll accurate for a CMC rules question, then all CMC racers should be included in the poll. If they aren't, the poll doesn't accurately reflect all of the CMC racers. Your lack of understanding that is bullshit, not the other way around.

Nick
02-17-2012, 03:37 PM
To make a poll accurate for a CMC rules question, then all CMC racers should be included in the poll. If they aren't, the poll doesn't accurately reflect all of the CMC racers. Your lack of understanding that is bullshit, not the other way around.

When NASA National polled CMC racers a few years ago it wasn't sent to all CMC racers. Yet, the results reflected the vote of the ones who did participate in the poll.

GlennCMC70
02-17-2012, 03:45 PM
Do poll's often ask every person who lives in the US? Or do they take a sample and allow it to reflect the "popular" opinion? I think the 2nd one. So in this case do you think the opinion of those who decide not to vote ALL fall in a single direction and the opinion of those who do vote fall the other direction? If you think that, you have some serious issues.

As for a DQ at a regional event and your opinion.... I would agree and such has happened many times. In this instance there has been fair notice given. Consider this the "logbook entry".
You commented eslewhere about how each region is different (posted today on the National site).
[quote]Each region is unique, and the communication method that works for one region may not be as well suited for another.[\quote]

This region wants the rules enforced and expects a DQ when they are violated. The races here in Texas participated in a poll (dear God! not another poll!) and that was the result - DQ's for CMC rules violations.

The FUN is for all involved, not just those who do not want to follow the rules. Some folks don't think it is very fun to show up w/ a legal car only to get beat by a non-legal car. The expectation is everyone will be legal. I do my best to not pick and choose which rules I will and will not enforce based on my own personal opinion on them. In this case, I think it is flat out stupid this rule did not change when I sugested it in the off season year before last. You commented above that this has minimal performance impact, but you voted against allowing the change in 2010 for the 2011 rules. That is really odd.

Alien
02-17-2012, 03:54 PM
To make a poll accurate for a CMC rules question, then all CMC racers should be included in the poll. If they aren't, the poll doesn't accurately reflect all of the CMC racers.
Correct but it is a roughly representitive of the PERCENTAGE of for or against something. When the TV talking heads say 32% of the US watched the superbowl, do you think they polled everyone? When they say 58% of Americans like V8 cars, did they ask everyone? No, they only polled a million people, and roughly half said yes. Since they didn't then it's not an accurate statement? What the poll does is get the feelings of the racers within an order of magnitude.

*edit*damn I type like I drive, slow

Adam Ginsberg
02-17-2012, 07:23 PM
Do poll's often ask every person who lives in the US? Or do they take a sample and allow it to reflect the "popular" opinion? I think the 2nd one. So in this case do you think the opinion of those who decide not to vote ALL fall in a single direction and the opinion of those who do vote fall the other direction? If you think that, you have some serious issues.

As for a DQ at a regional event and your opinion.... I would agree and such has happened many times. In this instance there has been fair notice given. Consider this the "logbook entry".
You commented eslewhere about how each region is different (posted today on the National site).
[quote]Each region is unique, and the communication method that works for one region may not be as well suited for another.[\quote]

This region wants the rules enforced and expects a DQ when they are violated. The races here in Texas participated in a poll (dear God! not another poll!) and that was the result - DQ's for CMC rules violations.

The FUN is for all involved, not just those who do not want to follow the rules. Some folks don't think it is very fun to show up w/ a legal car only to get beat by a non-legal car. The expectation is everyone will be legal. I do my best to not pick and choose which rules I will and will not enforce based on my own personal opinion on them. In this case, I think it is flat out stupid this rule did not change when I sugested it in the off season year before last. You commented above that this has minimal performance impact, but you voted against allowing the change in 2010 for the 2011 rules. That is really odd.

This is precisely why I don't spend as much time on the forums as I used to. Not interested in the regular, fucked up ring-around-the-rosie, since you've taken things out of context, put words in my mouth, and generally made yourself look better, and more "transparent" than you really are.

Yeah, I'm out.....

GlennCMC70
02-17-2012, 07:45 PM
Ah, I see. Everyone here (from TX) seems to have little to no issue w/ my "offer" to issue a DQ. You (from the Cali Region) come here on a TX forum to tell me how big of an ass I'm being all the while making yourself look like an ass all on your own, get pissed and leave (I bet you stormed off stomping your feet too!). Somehow all this is my doing. Your out, and you should have never come in. Not sure how any of this TX stuff was your concern. Likely it would be if I wasn't following the rules, but I am, and you have issue w/ it. F me.....

If I acted like you, I wouldn't spend much time on the forums either.

Sidney
02-20-2012, 02:44 PM
Really?!?! Issue a DQ for header wrap? Especially if they are ok on the dyno?? A note in a logbook (the first time) to simply remove it for the next event isn't suitable enough?? For an item that is questionable, at best for being a "performance enhancement"??

Holy shit, that's completely ridiculous, and severe overkill at a regional event.

Did you forget why we do this, Glenn? It's for good close racing, and fun.





Not DQ'ing at Regional events and you end up with Lexan Side Windows at Nationals! Last time I checked...CMC was a Nationally recognized class. When the Midwest boys tow out to Hallett, or VIR, or Watkins Glen, or Road Atlanta...we expect everyone to be following the same rules.

Sidney

David Love AI27
02-20-2012, 11:57 PM
if i acted like you, i wouldn't spend much time on the forums either.

roflmfao

RichardP
02-21-2012, 09:12 AM
Not DQ'ing at Regional events and you end up with Lexan Side Windows at Nationals!


Really??? There is absolutely no middle ground between completely ignoring the most basic of rules compliance and disqualification??? So if some competitor doesn't follow the ridiculous drama on all the message boards and thus doesn’t know about the header wrap clarification, they should be disqualified for showing up with a car with same stuff that they saw on other competitors cars at the last event?


Richard P.

GlennCMC70
02-21-2012, 04:28 PM
Two things Richard (and I type this w/ all the respect in the world).....
This post is not a rule clarification regarding header wrap. It is a heads up sort of "I don't know who told you that you could, but you can't" informative type post/thread. I tried to install it in 2004 while building my car. I got a very clear answer then - NO! (From Adam and Todd). It has never been implied to be legal. Someone here did it (and didn't get caught) and told others that it was legal when another competitor(s) called them on it. Instead of reading the rules and coming to that conclusion on their own, they acted like sheep and followed suit.
That leads to the 2nd issue. Monkey see, monkey do is BS. The rules are there. Read them. If you don't get the same meaning from a rule (or lack of one), clarify it w/ an official. Don't say "Well Bob has it and he says it's OK, so we can do it now". Well Bob is not an Official. It is hard enough to keep all the Directors on the same page and interpret the rules the same. I don't need racers doing it for other racers. There is nothing wrong w/ racers questioning legality of parts on each other cars (face to face)and “…show me where it says I can do that”.
All Officials in CMC have been pretty clear about “If it is not in the rules, then you likely cannot do it.” Always ask first. Get it in writing. I still have emails I carry to the track every event giving me permission to run parts that are not OEM and not spelled out in the rules (not on the car anymore). I do this you prove I went thru the proper channels to get permission to do it.
This isn’t directed at you Richard, rather in response to things you said. Not a personal attack of any sort.

RichardP
02-21-2012, 05:43 PM
Glenn, I get all that and I agree. I'm pretty sure I've made it clear that everyone should be compliant with even the dumbest of rules. The question is whether or not the appropriate action at the next regional event is to give people who don't know they are not in compliance a chance to correct the issue or to just hand out disqualifications...

Richard P.

BryanL
02-21-2012, 05:46 PM
Glenn-I certainly don't have an issue with a DQ for illegal parts on a car and agree with your assessment of Adam. Don't know why he had to try and take a shot at you about every comment from issuing a DQ to the use of a poll. A poll is simply a sample of the public opinion to gather information. It doesn't have to include every single competitor to be accurate.

Good point Sydney and I agree with you.

Richard-I thought you wanted strict rules compliance especially after the lexan windows fiasco at Nats? Now I see Richards post above.

I'll run AI with my wrapped manifolds and submit a rules change request. And unless the rules are clarified to allow painting of the manifolds then anyone can submit against a car with painted manifolds since it doesn't say you can paint them in the rules.

GlennCMC70
02-21-2012, 07:11 PM
Glenn, I get all that and I agree. I'm pretty sure I've made it clear that everyone should be compliant with even the dumbest of rules. The question is whether or not the appropriate action at the next regional event is to give people who don't know they are not in compliance a chance to correct the issue or to just hand out disqualifications...

Richard P.

Thanks Richard. If this had all transpired at the track, I would agree that a DQ would be a little harsh. Hell, if it was the week of the event, I likely would not issue a DQ. But w/ this sort of notice, I think it is a fair expectation. If anyone has problems becoming compliant, get w/ me off-line. We can likely work something out.
Plus I sort of know who has and hasn't seen it and I know the names of those on the short list that this affects. The risk is minimal.

RichardP
02-21-2012, 07:35 PM
But w/ this sort of notice.

Why do you think that all the competitors follow these boards and know about this issue???


Richard P.

mitchntx
02-21-2012, 08:15 PM
Why do you think that all the competitors follow these boards and know about this issue???


Richard P.

The rules are located on these boards.
The race schedule is posted on these boards
The weekend schedules are posted on these boards.
Parts are sold, bought, traded and borrowed on these boards.

Why would debate about rules clarifications be seperate?

Is the expectation that directors call every potential racer and give them updates?
If so, how often? what if you don't answer, how many times should he/she try?

How about USPS or FedEx overnight letter ... sent at the racer's expense of course.

Like it or not, this is the lowest common denominator.
And if you don't frequent the boards, then you are badly uninformed.
It's no different than if you don't read the rules at all and just build it without care.
Does ignorance merit a log book entry only?

It's the beast, like it or not.



Back to retirement, now.

AllZWay
02-21-2012, 09:01 PM
Wow....what a crazy thread I missed.

BlueFirePony
02-21-2012, 09:17 PM
Wow....what a crazy thread I missed.
Yep...I am thinking about writing a l'il robot to crawl this site and pull out anything that is rules related....or really good trash talkin'. Having fun with language-based heuristics lately ....back to work...

RichardP
02-21-2012, 09:32 PM
The rules are located on these boards.
The race schedule is posted on these boards
The weekend schedules are posted on these boards.
Parts are sold, bought, traded and borrowed on these boards.

Why would debate about rules clarifications be seperate?


The rules are on the national web. The race schedule is on the regional web. The schedules are e-mailed to all entrants. Some people don't care about other people's used crap.

Some people don't care about debating the rules. They just want to know that their car is legal and hope that the system in place will keep their competitors legal so the racing will be good and fair.

I think the boards are a good thing, in general. The rules debates are important and this is a good place to do them. On the other hand, getting caught up in all the controversy is not healthy for some. It’s pretty clear that there are some competitors that had a great time at the track but aren’t racing with us because of all the crap on the internet.

Maybe I’m also being too subtle with the point I’m trying to make. It actually has nothing to do with header wrap. I’m trying to figure out why the first penalty that is pulled out by default for competitor ignorance of a non-performance item at the local level is a disqualification?

Anyway, Dan doesn't hang out here. He thinks that this is a great group of guys that are a blast to race with. If he knew how we all behaved on the internet, I doubt he would stick around. If his car isn’t legal (and it might not be) it’s because neither he nor I know what is out of compliance. It certainly wasn’t legal when he bought it and we have corrected everything we have found. If anyone knows about an issue, we would love to know about it so it can be corrected before disqualification. I imagine that is true of most of the competitors.

Dan has already signed up for the next race and did so without coming here. Based on the entrant list, it looks like everyone else is waiting around to figure out whether or not their ceramic painted headers are going to get them disqualified before they bother wasting their time or money...


Richard P.

mitchntx
02-21-2012, 10:46 PM
The rules are on the national web.
The race schedule is on the regional web.T
he schedules are e-mailed to all entrants.
Some people don't care about other people's used crap.

Some people don't care about debating the rules. They just want to know that their car is legal and hope that the system in place will keep their competitors legal so the racing will be good and fair.


OK ... so some people like to double-click themselves all over the internet and some like to go to one place and get it all. W
e all have likes and dislikes.
And one person's crap allows the next guy to race next week. N
ot everyone has deep pockets.

I don't think you are being subtle at all.
I think you want utopia and it ain't gonna happen.
Have to take the good with the bad.

In this case, fair warning was been issued.
People in CMC KNOW where to get the information.
Whether they chose to wade through the BS to find it is entirely their choice.

But it is a choice. And if one person legitamately claims they didn't know because they don't come here or
didn't see it here, are the rest of the racers supposed to say "that's OK. Yer fergivun."
How many times does the racer get a mulligan?
That must mean all racers get X number of mulligans.
The poor guy that reads the rules and tries to play by the rules is freaking a sucker.

The unwritten rule that everyone understands is that up-to-the-minute discussion, debate, clarification, heads' up is all right here.
It can be pieced together through other channels, but it starts here.

Like it or not, it's the beast.

BlueFirePony
02-22-2012, 10:35 AM
[QUOTE=mitchntx;57921]The poor guy that reads the rules and tries to play by the rules is an honorable person.

QUOTE]
Fixed it for ya Mitch ;)

Fbody383
02-22-2012, 11:24 AM
Anyway, Dan doesn't hang out here. He thinks that this is a great group of guys that are a blast to race with. If he knew how we all behaved on the internet, I doubt he would stick around. If his car isn’t legal (and it might not be) it’s because neither he nor I know what is out of compliance.I don't follow completely. If the group is competitive, friendly, and well run why would this matter? Also, my impression is that you guys are prepared to the limit of the rules and will make appropriate changes if something is pointed out to you.

jeremiahkellam
02-28-2012, 10:27 PM
WOW! Once again, Glenn comes out of left field with his "new interpretation" of a rule...

Good thing I didnt have wrapped headers when I went to Nats twice, and everything in between....

GlennCMC70
02-28-2012, 10:44 PM
WOW! Once again, Glenn comes out of left field with his "new interpretation" of a rule...

Good thing I didnt have wrapped headers when I went to Nats twice, and everything in between....


My interpretation is the same as all Directors. You can disagree w/ me since I'm the one posting it, but understand, it is not "my" interpretation - it is CMC's rules.

Fbody383
02-29-2012, 12:26 PM
WOW! Once again, Glenn comes out of left field with his "new interpretation" of a rule...I don't think it's a new interpretation.

You guys need to come out and play again.

Papa Kellam
02-29-2012, 07:59 PM
I'm amazed that all of you smart guys have not figured it out.
I'll give you a hint. Does Sebastian Vettel dominate the F1 world because he or his team are cheaters? Does Tiger Woods cheat (at golf)?

Another suggestion: The only rule would be the HP/Weight table. You can do anything else you want. Guess what. You still will have the same people winning races and the same people will be whinning.

You'll have fun now!

David Love AI27
02-29-2012, 08:44 PM
I'm amazed that all of you smart guys have not figured it out.
I'll give you a hint. Does Sebastian Vettel dominate the F1 world because he or his team are cheaters? Does Tiger Woods cheat (at golf)?

Another suggestion: The only rule would be the HP/Weight table. You can do anything else you want. Guess what. You still will have the same people winning races and the same people will be whinning.

You'll have fun now!

Gotta love US old guys....

its OK pappa... LiiR is nothing but a bunch of cheaters too...

Bring the Bullit... Jason and I are gonna try and get up there and run TT or AI... where ever we can find a group where the car is legal...

Fbody383
03-01-2012, 09:52 AM
I'll give you a hint. Does Sebastian Vettel dominate the F1 world because he or his team are cheaters?F1 is a bad example. Remember that for the 2009 season Brawn and several others coaxed the double diffuser out of the rule set and other teams didn't because they thought it went against the spirit/intent of the rule.

Nobody is denying you guys got skillz, and some other cars got caught in the hp/tq rule progression that made room for newer cars. There have been some other unfortunate circumstances that were clear rules violations that had gone unintentionally unenforced.

I have not seen any malicious prosecution of anyone, but maybe that's because I'm just the old, slow, fat guy at the back. But there's Toyos at the back now.

jeremiahkellam
03-01-2012, 10:03 AM
I don't think it's a new interpretation.



Our rules really only tell us what is specifically allowed, so everything else is open to interpretation by the powers to be, and I would bet most interpretations are going to be in their favor, especially if they race themsevles...

I can only assume that Glenn, or someone else who is only allowed to run the stock exhaust mainfolds (which are physically impossible to wrap), realized that it was unfair that some, who are allowed to run aftermarket headers, could wrap their headers, while they are not able. So if all cant have some, nobody gets any... And thats fine. But handle it in a more diplomatic way. Make the statement, present the supporting facts, and then go away if that is your final decision. Dont hang around leaving it open for discusion that goes no where.

Yes, I have had header wrap on my car from day one, and have had more than one person stick their head under my hood looking for something wrong. Nothing was ever said...I'm not implying that this ruling was directed at me, I'm not even racing. But the fact that (once again) this is only brought up in the Texas forums, means it is directed at someone in this group. Nothing is said of this on the national forum.

Alien
03-01-2012, 11:06 AM
Our rules really only tell us what is specifically allowed, so everything else is open to interpretation by the powers to be,
Huh? Maybe I'm just dumb, but since our rules are built around, if it doesn't say you can, you can't, how can everything else be open to interpretation by the powers that be? The only items that are possible to be open to interpertation are the items that ARE stated in the rules. I've built a rally car that used the opposite style rule set, it said what you can't do, pretty much anything else was legal. In that situation, I can see how everything else could be open to interpretation.


But the fact that (once again) this is only brought up in the Texas forums, means it is directed at someone in this group. Nothing is said of this on the national forum.
Huh?

http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4113

Dated a few days before this thread started. I though Glenn was basically cross posting it here to keep the Tx racers informed of what was going on in the national forum since I'm sure not everyone visits a dozen forums a day.

I crack up at the statements of "I've been running this or that for x many years now and nobody ever said anything". When I get pulled over for not having a front license plate, I sure as hell don't tell the cop, well the last three officers never said anything about it. I just think to myself, well, I guess I've 'gotten away'* with it until now.

*Gotten away can be intentionally knowing I was illegal (in the case of no front plate) or unintenionally not knowing, like the silly law that states you can't turn right at a red light if someone is in the right lane, even if they are pulled so far forward/to the left that you can sqeeze by.

*edit* and I sure as hell hope we don't get to the point where everyone's car has to go thru a 30 minute CMC tech inspection every weekend just so nobody can cry the "I've been running it" line because that's really the only way to solve it. And DL thought the ARCA tech was bad.

RichardP
03-01-2012, 12:43 PM
Yes, I have had header wrap on my car from day one.


Wow, next you are going to tell us that you had a catch tank on your axle breather. When will it stop...


Richard P.

GlennCMC70
03-01-2012, 05:42 PM
Our rules really only tell us what is specifically allowed, so everything else is open to interpretation by the powers to be, and I would bet most interpretations are going to be in their favor, especially if they race themsevles...

I can only assume that Glenn, or someone else who is only allowed to run the stock exhaust mainfolds (which are physically impossible to wrap), realized that it was unfair that some, who are allowed to run aftermarket headers, could wrap their headers, while they are not able. So if all cant have some, nobody gets any... And thats fine. But handle it in a more diplomatic way. Make the statement, present the supporting facts, and then go away if that is your final decision. Dont hang around leaving it open for discusion that goes no where.

Yes, I have had header wrap on my car from day one, and have had more than one person stick their head under my hood looking for something wrong. Nothing was ever said...I'm not implying that this ruling was directed at me, I'm not even racing. But the fact that (once again) this is only brought up in the Texas forums, means it is directed at someone in this group. Nothing is said of this on the national forum.

Gary covered it pretty much.
You really need to get off your high horse and stop thinking all issues like this are a result of what you have done.
Difficult or not to wrap, I asked back in 2004 about being allowed to wrap my OEM manifolds. I was told no. I didn't assume it was OK since it wasn't written into the rules (like you did), I asked. Up until 2006 that was all well and good. Go back and take a look at the 2007 or 2008 proposed rules changes, and you will see where I asked this rule to be changed since those who were allowed non-OEM manifolds/headers were allowed "coatings" (not wrapped headers) and that this stance was unfair. I don't like this rule. I don't like having to enforce it. But I do enforce it and all the CMC rules - like them or not.
So, none of this is a result of have's and have not's. It is a result of a question asked over on the National forums that I answered.
So I handled it the very way you asked me to. I had no names of who and who didn't have this done, other than Bryan Lienart said he had just wrapped his and hadn't installed. It was an effort to not get caught w/ ones pants down. It was only after I made my post here that I was told by other folks about who was not legal. For the 2nd time in what seems like as many months, you have come in here and rat'ed yourself out. It has always been "How dare you think I'm not legal." when questioned, but here we are w/ two examples of you not following the rules.
Been lots of racing going on since you stopped running w/ us. Lots of new folks building new cars asking the same old questions I asked many years ago. They will likely get asked again in the future.

A couple of you guys here got some serious issues. Its never your fault. Always some one here out to get you. I got news for ya both - you ain't that special. Get over yourself and grow up.

GlennCMC70
03-01-2012, 05:52 PM
Wow, next you are going to tell us that you had a catch tank on your axle breather. When will it stop...


Richard P.

On this subject....
I have submitted a rules proposal (a few days ago) that allows a catch can for the diff to be installed. All Directors who have responded agree w/ allowing it. It is a matter of word-smithing the rule at this point. And it is so odd that I'm the one who took this to the Directors to have it allowed and written into the rules, yet I don't have one. Kid of disproves a point made somewhere above. I also didn't make a post here about "If you have a rear diff catch can, you will be DQ'ed!". Nope, I took it to the directors and got it clarified and soon to be legalized.

Papa Kellam
03-01-2012, 09:43 PM
Glenn,

You're are one amazing dude. If there is anyone that thinks they are Gods gift to racing it is you. As for someone with serious issues " that's like the rat calling the kettle a long nose SOB". You are the worst example of what NASA should be promoting that I have seen, but what do I know. We just came, cheated like a couple riverboat gamblers and kicked ass. Some people just can't accept that some header wrap and a 1/2" of geometric modification to a car at this level makes them a cheater and that is the only reason that they won is absurd. You just refuse to answer the simple question that I ask. You and your ADVOCATES are simply controlling individuals and as long as everyone plays by your rules (and pays their money) you leave them alone. They are not a threat to your SUPERIORITY. I 've seen this kind of shit when I was 10 years old playing sandlot football. You are the one that needs to grow up and get over yourself.

You didn't tell me if you would disqualify me if I ran HDPE. You will take my $280 though right?

Have a nice day.

Casey_SS
03-01-2012, 10:07 PM
As entertaining as this is, could you guys possibly work it out over the phone instead of the forum? Please??

David Love AI27
03-01-2012, 11:02 PM
Get over yourself and grow up.

Now thets funny rite theeer...

edrock96GT
03-02-2012, 09:03 AM
As entertaining as this is, could you guys possibly work it out over the phone instead of the forum? Please??

This.

Half of this forum is about racing, the other half is about how much people don't like each other.

Shit's getting old, we know already...

ShadowBolt
03-02-2012, 09:36 AM
Glenn,

You're are one amazing dude. If there is anyone that thinks they are Gods gift to racing it is you. As for someone with serious issues " that's like the rat calling the kettle a long nose SOB". You are the worst example of what NASA should be promoting that I have seen, but what do I know. We just came, cheated like a couple riverboat gamblers and kicked ass. Some people just can't accept that some header wrap and a 1/2" of geometric modification to a car at this level makes them a cheater and that is the only reason that they won is absurd. You just refuse to answer the simple question that I ask. You and your ADVOCATES are simply controlling individuals and as long as everyone plays by your rules (and pays their money) you leave them alone. They are not a threat to your SUPERIORITY. I 've seen this kind of shit when I was 10 years old playing sandlot football. You are the one that needs to grow up and get over yourself.

You didn't tell me if you would disqualify me if I ran HDPE. You will take my $280 though right?

Have a nice day.


Papa Kellam,

You are out of line here. Glenn and I do not always see eye to eye. In fact at TWS last year I wanted to kill his ass but I’m telling you not one person here thinks you guys won any races because of cheating.......not one! I’ve never heard a word about it from a single person including Glenn! The fact is that a guy got DQ’ed at Nats this year for Lexan windows. Can you imagine losing the national championship because of that? You guys are lucky you did not get caught with at least two things done to the car that is not okay. It would have been a shame to have you lose any race because of these dumb little things but the fact remains that you could have and should have been DQ’ed. At Cresson one year I saw the header wrap on your car and I told you guys it was not okay to have it. You told me the rule had changed. Hell, I never read the rules so I assumed you were correct and if I was not so lazy I would have my headers wrapped right now. Do I think the header wrap and the shock mount would have made a difference in the number of wins you guys had......Hell no but that is not the point. The point is your car was not within the rule set and you got away with it. Get over this obsession with Glenn. Glenn can be a prick (so can I) but he loves this sport and he gives a lot more than he receives out of it. I hope you two know I consider you to be my friends and I hope you do not take this wrong but again not one person (including Glenn) thinks you only won because of cheating. You guys did more work than the rest of us and it paid off. I hope you both come back and we get past all this BS.

By the way, I’m way faster than your old ass Pappa Kellam. Come on out and make me eat those words.


JJ

Fbody383
03-02-2012, 10:16 AM
I know a couple of the guys want this to just go away, but the discussion is important (though it does seem to go better when we're all standing around in the paddock), and generally civil all around.

Wayne, I think you and Jeremiah built a car to what you believed was the legal limit of the rules and spent the required time to develop the car and the driver to a very high potential.


Some people just can't accept that some header wrap and a 1/2" of geometric modification to a car at this level makes them a cheater and that is the only reason that they won is absurd.But your answering your own complaint here; if "1/2" of geometric modification" is legal on your car, can I move my drivetrain rearward 1/2" and be legal?

Remember we also had a very fast guy DQ'd for subframe connectors that were clearly outside the lines but had been on the car since day one; does not/did not make them legal and as harsh as the penalty was, what else should have been done? Do some of the rules appear to be non-performance related? Perhaps, but if they are still in the rulebook they should be enforced consistently.

RichardP
03-02-2012, 10:22 AM
I have submitted a rules proposal (a few days ago) that allows a catch can for the diff to be installed.

I'm glad this is going to be clarified. Not only are catch cans not allowed, I'm struggling to find where extending the factory breather with a hose and adding a filter is allowed. Will the update also include the transmission vent? The Orange car had a catch can on the transmission vent when it was purchased... from a CMC director. I need to know if it needs to be removed before the next event.


Similarly, is the header coating thing also going to be clarified? While I see nothing that allows header wrap, I'm equally unable to find the wording that allows "cheap" coatings but disallows "expensive" coatings, and what the delineation between the two cost ranges might be. It would be unfortunate for you to have to disqualify yourself at the next event in front of our out of region guests. :-)


Richard P.

Fbody383
03-02-2012, 10:23 AM
It would be unfortunate for you to have to disqualify yourself at the next event in front of our out of region guests. Could be a big AI/X field...

AllZWay
03-02-2012, 10:36 AM
As entertaining as this is, could you guys possibly work it out over the phone instead of the forum? Please??

Like this post.


Kellam's you should just ignore it and go race. I have heard rumours of me cheating and at first I was kind of annoyed, but ultimately I just don't care. I think part of it just comes with winning. I know that I am not knowlingly breaking any rules to gain some advantage.

I don't think anyone really thinks header wrap is some massive advantage anyway. Just get the car out and go have fun.

AllZWay
03-02-2012, 10:41 AM
Oh...and BTW... NO one ever LOSES because they have less talent. It has to be superior equipment, unequal rules, or cheating. :D

ShadowBolt
03-02-2012, 11:12 AM
Like this post.


Kellam's you should just ignore it and go race. I have heard rumours of me cheating and at first I was kind of annoyed, but ultimately I just don't care. I think part of it just comes with winning. I know that I am not knowlingly breaking any rules to gain some advantage.

I don't think anyone really thinks header wrap is some massive advantage anyway. Just get the car out and go have fun.

Well everyone knows James cheats. How else could he beat the Jordans every single time. No way he is just faster. I think his mother puts something in the gas tank.

JJ

AllZWay
03-02-2012, 11:36 AM
Well everyone knows James cheats. How else could he beat the Jordans every single time. No way he is just faster. I think his mother puts something in the gas tank.

JJ

You just think she is a sweet country lady. ;)

kbrewmr2
03-02-2012, 12:23 PM
reminds me of a quote I see all the time from one of the SE Corvette racers:

"Everyone behind me is an incredible driver. Everyone ahead of me is a cheater!"

BryanL
03-02-2012, 03:55 PM
Once again I nominate Gary to be a Director along with Al, Glenn, and Marshall. I think he knows the rules as good as anyone and is spot on in his interpretations. He has another great post that makes perfect sense.

Well said Jerry.

JP-next time I want your mom to mix my drink and put something special in my gas tank, too! First I have ever heard of your name and cheating but that is a failry common them in our human behavior. To me if you aren't cheating and you get accussed of it then its simply a great compliment.

JK-I wrapped my exhuast manifolds that I have already put on my car so it is possible. Also-I was going to call you last night but don't have your number (PM it to me) in my new phone. Watched a documentary on PBS last night and thought of you since I think you are getting Gage into karts-here is the info- http://racingdreamsfilm.com/

mitchntx
03-04-2012, 10:45 AM
Hokey Smoke, Bullwinkle ... never thought I'd read some of the things posted in this thread, and other threads for that matter.

I'll leave this here ...

What burns my corn is not rules implementation or rules interpretation, it's the justice.

We've witnessed regional championships stripped from competitors over something like a 1/2" stitch weld and
other competitors beat and bang their way to regional championships leaving a piles of their own and their competitor's body parts in their wake and
then congratulated for their "accomplishments" at the end of the year.

Focus on certain things and the brushing-off of others makes no sense to me.
If following the CCR leads down this path, then the CCR is way out of whack.


ooops ... forgot to add ...

I personally don't equate "illegal" with "cheating".
I have a set of R888 I run in a race. Am I cheating? I'm certainly illegal ...

rleng1
03-05-2012, 11:35 AM
I have not seen any malicious prosecution of anyone, but maybe that's because I'm just the old, slow, fat guy at the back. But there's Toyos at the back now.

You're not fat. Don't be so hard on yourself.

Al Fernandez
03-05-2012, 05:50 PM
like the silly law that states you can't turn right at a red light if someone is in the right lane, even if they are pulled so far forward/to the left that you can sqeeze by.


Thats really illegal?

Kellams (both of you) you guys are much friendlier than this. I think you're hearing plenty of guys saying that theres not some groundswell of opinion that you're cheating bastards, or anything near it. As a matter of fact, all of us would just like you to get the damn car to the track and race and drink with us some more. As for Glenn, he works pretty hard at keeping the guys here in TX informed, not at trying to bend the rules in his favor. As a matter of fact he probably has the least discretion with the rules off all the regional directors since I'm physically here as well.

Jerry, Gary...nicely put.

Papa Kellam
03-05-2012, 09:04 PM
Thats really illegal?

Kellams (both of you) you guys are much friendlier than this. I think you're hearing plenty of guys saying that theres not some groundswell of opinion that you're cheating bastards, or anything near it. As a matter of fact, all of us would just like you to get the damn car to the track and race and drink with us some more. As for Glenn, he works pretty hard at keeping the guys here in TX informed, not at trying to bend the rules in his favor. As a matter of fact he probably has the least discretion with the rules off all the regional directors since I'm physically here as well.

Jerry, Gary...nicely put.


I'll apologize if I was too hard on Glenn. No malice intended towards ANYONE. Sorry.

The real problem that I have with the rules is inconsistancey in inforcing rules that are very clear and then not allowing things because it is their INTERPRETATION of what is not written. I can not understand why you chose to say "if does not say you can then you can't". To me this is completely irrational and a cop-out.
I wish that CMC could get this all resolved in a much better way that the Director saying: "if you think this is allowed then you will be DQ'd", end of story because I checked 8 years ago. Not acceptable for me and should not be for anyone in CMC.
I think I've said enough.

mitchntx
03-05-2012, 09:35 PM
I'll apologize if I was too hard on Glenn. No malice intended towards ANYONE. Sorry.

The real problem that I have with the rules is inconsistancey in inforcing rules that are very clear and then not allowing things because it is their INTERPRETATION of what is not written. I can not understand why you chose to say "if does not say you can then you can't". To me this is completely irrational and a cop-out.
I wish that CMC could get this all resolved in a much better way that the Director saying: "if you think this is allowed then you will be DQ'd", end of story because I checked 8 years ago. Not acceptable for me and should not be for anyone in CMC.
I think I've said enough.

I struggled with the if it doesn't say you can, then you can't for a long time. Couldn't get my head around it.

Then one day it "clicked" as to why CMC will never be able to work with "bible".
CMC is made up of a dozen or more unique platforms, each with it's own set of strengths and each with it's own set of problem areas.

It would be impossible to generate a rule set for each possible platform of allowances and at the end of all the allowed changes there be parity.
If the series was made of a single platform, then yeah ... what you want is doable. But it's premise of the series that makes it impossible.

So instead, the rules say start with showroom stock platform and these are the allowed changes and nothing else.
Subtle but an important point of view.

Alien
03-06-2012, 12:08 AM
Thats really illegal?
Buddy of mine got a ticket in College Station for it.



§ 545.058. DRIVING ON IMPROVED SHOULDER. (a) An operator
may drive on an improved shoulder to the right of the main traveled
portion of a roadway if that operation is necessary and may be done
safely, but only:
(1) to stop, stand, or park;
(2) to accelerate before entering the main traveled
lane of traffic;
(3) to decelerate before making a right turn;
(4) to pass another vehicle that is slowing or stopped
on the main traveled portion of the highway, disabled, or preparing
to make a left turn;
(5) to allow another vehicle traveling faster to pass;
(6) as permitted or required by an official
traffic-control device; or
(7) to avoid a collision.
Interesting that it states the times you CAN pass on the shoulder. I bet this section of the code would be 20+ pages longer if it listed all the reasons that you're NOT permitted to drive on the shoulder.

Driver - "My dog telepathically told me to pass the car to make the right turn"
Officer - "Well shoot, that's not listed in these 20 pages of code as a reason you can't pass, so I must let you go. Have a nice day"

David Love AI27
03-06-2012, 12:37 AM
reminds me of a quote I see all the time from one of the SE Corvette racers:

"Everyone behind me is an incredible driver. Everyone ahead of me is a cheater!"

Quit listening to Glenn

David Love AI27
03-06-2012, 01:19 AM
Hokey Smoke, Bullwinkle ... never thought I'd read some of the things posted in this thread, and other threads for that matter.

I'll leave this here ...

What burns my corn is not rules implementation or rules interpretation, it's the justice.

We've witnessed regional championships stripped from competitors over something like a 1/2" stitch weld and
other competitors beat and bang their way to regional championships leaving a piles of their own and their competitor's body parts in their wake and
then congratulated for their "accomplishments" at the end of the year.

Focus on certain things and the brushing-off of others makes no sense to me.
If following the CCR leads down this path, then the CCR is way out of whack.


ooops ... forgot to add ...

I personally don't equate "illegal" with "cheating".
I have a set of R888 I run in a race. Am I cheating? I'm certainly illegal ...

I agree...

mitchntx
03-06-2012, 06:33 AM
I must have dropped a good hit of acid... I agree...

Wirtz was robbed for an infraction that should have been a fixit ticket... LiiR has been hounded over something that EVERYONE is aware of but no action...

Glenn can run over anyone he wants, but he is a director so its ok... Jason locks up the fronts to avoid Wade (check out the end of year video) and is DQed and put on probation... even though he tried to avoid...

LiiR has had TWO cars since 2004 with only minor body damage (two incidents),,, I will put that record up against ANY director in NASATX CMC...

I have never been so proud to be a CMC Texas racer as I was at the 2009 Nationals... passed ALL impounds without a hitch... ever since there have been non-stop accusations that the car is illegal but no one will put up and protest...


David,

Your "woe is me" rants are getting a little old. Especially your having Glenn and Glenn only in your cross-hairs.

Someone brought whatever your issue is it to his attention. As a director he is duty bound to investigate and take action if needed.
Jason's penalty wasn't handed down by Glenn and only Glenn. He may've explained the decision, as he should, but the decision wasn't his.
Your illegal car isn't anything that gains you or Jason an overwhlming advantage, or you'd win more races. But it's still illegal and if allowed, then the next guy takes it a step further and so on. Again, illegal and cheating aren't the same thing, although as much and as you vehemently defend, it does make me wonder.

You are shooting the messenger, a convenient target. Let it go.

And again, you chose to focus on a single set of circumstances (Jeff and Glenn), to illustrate only your hidden agenda ... well, maybe not so hidden.
And I am a little ticked that you would band wagon onto my post in a lame attempt to further your agenda.

I used general, yet identifiable examples to illustrate my point. I suggest you work really hard at formulating an original thought, not twisting mine in your evil plot to over throw the Love conspiracy. It wasn't too long ago this same basic group pooled money to keep you racing. So there is no conspiracy.

If you have a problem with your car, I suggest you do some research, do a little fact gathering, figure what's best for the series, formulate a plan to fix and make a case for change (either in the rule set or in your car) instead of just pointing a finger and proclaiming "he hate me".

David Love AI27
03-06-2012, 07:12 AM
David,

Your "whoa is me" rants are getting a little old. Especially your having Glenn and Glenn only in your cross-hairs.

Someone brought whatever your issue is it to his attention. As a director he is duty bound to investigate and take action if needed.
Jason's penalty wasn't handed down by Glenn and only Glenn. He may've explained the decision, as he should, but the decision wasn't his.
Your illegal car isn't anything that gains you or Jason an overwhlming advantage, or you'd win more races. But it's still illegal and if allowed, then the next guy takes it a step further and so on. Again, illegal and cheating aren't the same thing, although as much and as you vehemently defend, it does make me wonder.

You are shooting the messenger, a convenient target. Let it go.

And again, you chose to focus on a single set of circumstances (Jeff and Glenn), to illustrate only your hidden agenda ... well, maybe not so hidden.
And I am a little ticked that you would band wagon onto my post in a lame attempt to further your agenda.

I used general, yet identifiable examples to illustrate my point. I suggest you work really hard at formulating an original thought, not twisting mine in your evil plot to over throw the Love conspiracy. It wasn't too long ago this same basic group pooled money to keep you racing. So there is no conspiracy.

If you have a problem with your car, I suggest you do some research, do a little fact gathering, figure what's best for the series, formulate a plan to fix and make a case for change (either in the rule set or in your car) instead of just pointing a finger and proclaiming "he hate me".

I didn't imply that Glenn handed down either of the penalties memtioned. I wasn't there for either of them. I know some facts and saw video that shows inconsistacies with the penalty handed to Jason and Wirtz as compared to others.

I read the rules and researched my car. It is legal as far as I know.

mitchntx
03-06-2012, 09:34 AM
I didn't imply that Glenn handed down either of the penalties memtioned. I wasn't there for either of them. I know some facts and saw video that shows inconsistacies with the penalty handed to Jason and Wirtz as compared to others.

I read the rules and researched my car. It is legal as far as I know.

What was you implication, then? Glenn was certainly the target of your angst.
That is evidenced in the post you deleted here and the 4 or 5 others you have yet to delete.
If you feel that strongly about it, why delete your opinion?
You certainly hurt the validity of a post if you decide to delete it.
The appearance is that you didn't mean it.

If you have facts not in evidence, then the time to appeal was a year and a half ago, not today and yesterday and last week and last month and over Christmas break and during Thanksgiving, while trick or treating, on Labor day weekend, during 4th of July fireworks, celebrating Memorial day, hunting easter eggs, while fasting during lent, on Presidents day, while celebrating 2011 on New Year's eve. Your agenda is clear ... Glenn gone or you'll generate as much crap as you can until it happens.

As you tried to imply by your quoting and piggy-backing onto my post, the problem is not Glenn or Al or Adrian ... it's the CCR, IMHO.

I'll try again ...The tool is screwed up when a misplaced stitch weld, a length of roll bar padding, a heat insulating cloth can strip a competitor of a Regional Championship while blowing a yellow flag, knocking someone's fender off, punting a competitor, or blocking has no significant impact.

A DQ is a non-droppable zero ... a reposition is droppable. Where's the justice in that?

Is that Glenn? No ... it's ANYONE who is guilty of an on-track infraction and deemed so by an IRB or your corner worker buddies or during a rountine or non-routine inspection.

In Wirtz's case, I don't know the particulars and don't care to. I do know that when LiiR found out, they worked their asses off to do what it took to over take, Jeff. So don't sit behind your monitor and act like your pissed because Jeff was screwed over. LiiR accepted the trophy and cashed the big check.

David Love AI27
03-06-2012, 09:40 PM
As you tried to imply by your quoting and piggy-backing onto my post, the problem is not Glenn or Al or Adrian ... it's the CCR, IMHO.

I'll try again ...The tool is screwed up when a misplaced stitch weld, a length of roll bar padding, a heat insulating cloth can strip a competitor of a Regional Championship while blowing a yellow flag, knocking someone's fender off, punting a competitor, or blocking has no significant impact.

A DQ is a non-droppable zero ... a reposition is droppable. Where's the justice in that?

Is that Glenn? No ... it's ANYONE who is guilty of an on-track infraction and deemed so by an IRB or your corner worker buddies or during a rountine or non-routine inspection.

MSR HOUSTON 2011... Jason "punted" Wade... it was an accident... you can see in the video that he locked up the fronts trying to avoid. First major contact in his career. He didn't do it on purpose and felt horrible when it happened. Was DQed (non-droppable), suspended for a race (no chance to earn points) and put on probation. I wasn't there to see what happened or help him. He is respectful of his elders and didn't want to protest the decision. Did it have a significant impact on his Championship? Why him? I guess in you humble opinion the penalty was fair and justified... IMHO it was crap... Jason is a good person who never wants to hurt anyone... He called me that night and asked me to come and drive because he was scared he might screw up and get kicked out of the series...

MHISSTC
03-06-2012, 11:45 PM
DANG!

Is everybody familiar with "The Butterfly Effect"? ...not the movie necessarily, but more in general as it relates to chaos theory and meteorology? I think I just witnessed it here. Apparently, I can ask questions about headers on the National CMC forum and it leads to a shit-storm in Texas, while I can ask similar questions about breather catch tanks and it doesn't even ripple the pond.

I wanted to come here and apologize to anyone who received any grief from the trickle-down.

I wish all regions with CMC racers were as well represented on the National CMC forum as Texas and a couple other regions.

Fun times racing, drinking beer, and hanging out at the track can't come soon enough.

mitchntx
03-07-2012, 04:57 AM
MSR HOUSTON 2011... Jason "punted" Wade... it was an accident... you can see in the video that he locked up the fronts trying to avoid. First major contact in his career. He didn't do it on purpose and felt horrible when it happened. Was DQed (non-droppable), suspended for a race (no chance to earn points) and put on probation. I wasn't there to see what happened or help him. He is respectful of his elders and didn't want to protest the decision. Did it have a significant impact on his Championship? Why him? I guess in you humble opinion the penalty was fair and justified... IMHO it was crap... Jason is a good person who never wants to hurt anyone... He called me that night and asked me to come and drive because he was scared he might screw up and get kicked out of the series...

I wasn't there either. I do know that Jason was the ONLY CMC car and out-of-class contact, as decided by the race director, would be dealt with severely.
That's been the mantra ever since Jeff lost a door to the wild woman in the stock car.
Jason was coached to move to CMC2 and refused.
And if I recall, Wade's car was wrinkled beyond repair.

But, OK it was crap. Jason was screwed over. Jason's a good person. Jason's respectful. And, Jason, I believe that, BTW ...

WTF does that have to do with ...


at least in TT I don't have to worry about some a$$ hat like you totaling my car


I am trying REALY hard to join you in AI with the 3 car.... I don't want to be on track at the same time as Glenn but Jason doen't have a problem with it.. Might just run Jason in AI on Sat and I'll run TT on Sunday

Again, your anger is pointed at the messenger, not the real problem.

Wow ... this all sounds like I'm defending Glenn. Further from the truth.
I couldn't care less what Glenn says or does.

But if you, David and you, Mr. Kellam would direct your passion into getting the problems fixed, traction might be made.
As long as decisions are being made without regard to how it effects existing racers, this kind of thing will continue.
What is CMC going to do when the puppet-masters decide the new Camaro and Challenger will be made CMC legal?
What's that going to do to the Fox and 3G? SN95? 4G?

And don't say they wouldn't do that ... they've already done it twice ... once with the 4G and again with the LSx cars and the new Mustangs.
It's why we're where we're at today.

If you think replacing Glenn is the answer, then you will be sorely disappointed.
The problems existed when Todd, Adam, and Al were regional directors.
A replacement will change nothing.

mitchntx
03-07-2012, 04:59 AM
DANG!

Is everybody familiar with "The Butterfly Effect"? ...not the movie necessarily, but more in general as it relates to chaos theory and meteorology? I think I just witnessed it here. Apparently, I can ask questions about headers on the National CMC forum and it leads to a shit-storm in Texas, while I can ask similar questions about breather catch tanks and it doesn't even ripple the pond.

I wanted to come here and apologize to anyone who received any grief from the trickle-down.

I wish all regions with CMC racers were as well represented on the National CMC forum as Texas and a couple other regions.

Fun times racing, drinking beer, and hanging out at the track can't come soon enough.


Oh yeah ... at the track we're all best of friends.

Once away from the track, accusations, back-stabbing, finger-pointing, rumor-mongoring is the norm.

David Love AI27
03-07-2012, 07:56 AM
I do know that Jason was the ONLY CMC car and out-of-class contact, as decided by the race director, would be dealt with severely.
That's been the mantra ever since Jeff lost a door to the wild woman in the stock car.
Jason was coached to move to CMC2 and refused.
And if I recall, Wade's car was wrinkled beyond repair.

Our plan was to bring home the final CMC Championship in Texas. We have been running out of class in the 27 car from the very begining and ALWAYS let others by if they were quicker. Jason didn't need any coaching, we already had a plan. And yes, that was the final straw for the old #17... we offered up parts but Wade was already building a new one.

GlennCMC70
03-07-2012, 08:23 AM
DANG!

Is everybody familiar with "The Butterfly Effect"? ...not the movie necessarily, but more in general as it relates to chaos theory and meteorology? I think I just witnessed it here. Apparently, I can ask questions about headers on the National CMC forum and it leads to a shit-storm in Texas, while I can ask similar questions about breather catch tanks and it doesn't even ripple the pond.

I wanted to come here and apologize to anyone who received any grief from the trickle-down.

I wish all regions with CMC racers were as well represented on the National CMC forum as Texas and a couple other regions.

Fun times racing, drinking beer, and hanging out at the track can't come soon enough.

A similare thing happened when I posted a thread just like this one here stating Maximum Motorsports upper rear shock mounts were not CMC legal - total cluster. Since I didn't do the same w/ the catch can (since the rules will be clarified to allow it), you got a different result.

Al Fernandez
03-13-2012, 11:22 AM
I understand anyone not agreeing with anyone else's opinion, but I cant pass up the opportunity to point out a few things from my perspective here to enable other competitors and would be competitors to base their own opinions.

A driver's intent in no way excuses their responsibility for the results of their actions. A punt with damage gets a DQ and a suspension per the CCR, even first offense ever. Out of class contact adds probation per Texas existing standards as communicated to every RD. Whomever was involved in that decision was following the exact expectations of NASA. There is not one but two appeal stages any driver can employ if they disagree with any decision of an official.

Jason's DQ was droppable as per CMC rules. It ended up having no impact on Jason's season total because he DNS'd 16 races, so he had far more 0s than drops.

All that said, I really wish you'd find a way to bury the hatchet David and just come to the track and enjoy being with your racing family. I've even got some cold beers and a bit of bourbon for you when you decide to.

David Love AI27
03-13-2012, 11:48 AM
I understand anyone not agreeing with anyone else's opinion, but I cant pass up the opportunity to point out a few things from my perspective here to enable other competitors and would be competitors to base their own opinions.

A driver's intent in no way excuses their responsibility for the results of their actions. A punt with damage gets a DQ and a suspension per the CCR, even first offense ever. Out of class contact adds probation per Texas existing standards as communicated to every RD. Whomever was involved in that decision was following the exact expectations of NASA. There is not one but two appeal stages any driver can employ if they disagree with any decision of an official.

Jason's DQ was droppable as per CMC rules. It ended up having no impact on Jason's season total because he DNS'd 16 races, so he had far more 0s than drops.

All that said, I really wish you'd find a way to bury the hatchet David and just come to the track and enjoy being with your racing family. I've even got some cold beers and a bit of bourbon for you when you decide to.

Thanks Al...
I understand... my rants were misguided... sorry. I had a plan for Jason to be the last CMC1 Champion in Texas even if he would have been the only car running. After the Houston event I feel like he was strong armed into CMC2 (not a rant, just my opinion). We had a blast running mid-pack of the CMC2 field for 2010 in CMC1 and had very minor issues. No big deal, sorry.

I don't like my car being anyones target, period. I am not an idiot, I, like everyone else, had concerns about the car, so I asked. DONE!

There are other issues that I'm not getting into. Hatchet is burried

I AM at the track, usually, twice a month... and having a blast... it is good to be back.