PDA

View Full Version : Evolution of the FOX...



marshall_mosty
08-26-2012, 08:40 PM
Since I dislocated my shoulder, I knew I had some time between Hallett and ECR... Something Richard Pedersen said at Hallett really struck me.

"Why try and move everything to the back for weight balance when you can just move the entire car..."

Well, that's what I've done.. The rear axle is now 1" further forward and the front hubs are 2 1/2" further forward since the last time anyone has seen the car.

Rear End
I started by cutting out the rear torque boxes (they suck anyway, right) and building my own boxes from 1/4" and 1/8" plate. This would allow me to go from a 14" tubular rear control arm to a 23" tubular rear control arm, ala "World Challenge" of the early 90's... The torque arm frame mount was welded in, so I had to shorten the torque arm by an inch. Since the rear end was 1" further forward, I wanted to keep the relative angle of the rear shocks the same, so we built some aluminum spacers 1" thick in the same contour as the shock mount. I had to have a custom driveshaft built which is 1.5" shorter than stock to ensure I don't destroy the tranny under bump. I can't leave well enough alone, and to allow for more tuning, I cut out the panhard bar and installed a Griggs Racing Watts Link so I can adjust the rear roll center. With the rear moved forward 1", the tire still can go thru full compression without hitting the wheel well. I still have to flare to use the 1" spacers. For ECR, it will most likely run a narrow track width, unless I get really good at building flares between then and now...


https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/408268_3103427564029_1401406890_n.jpg?oh=a97449f6f 6d9b0c1b1ee1fa686880737&oe=54983AC8&__gda__=1418952879_dbe915114ac459765f14eb89f4a0e31 2
Marshall's take on World Challenge torque boxes

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/542515_3103428324048_2169973_n.jpg
Here they are installed.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/546018_3103428764059_1843823615_n.jpg
Torque arm in pieces

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/293070_3103429884087_1209841472_n.jpg
Torque arm back together

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/419939_3103433964189_203392341_n.jpg
Rear partially assembled with rear shock spacers installed.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/542315_3103434524203_1590373625_n.jpg
Watts link partially installed (no frame mount yet)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/320174_3103441644381_2013401700_n.jpg?oh=dc1de8126 71908c90f924184f4410b91&oe=54A05478&__gda__=1419326899_63c6126738df9d0d2a416ba8cc1eeca f
Rear moved forward 1".

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/422328_3103442124393_2096168614_n.jpg
What I will eventually cover with some flares, which hopefully will be integrated into side skirts... maybe. :)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/529512_3747758031888_1966058698_n.jpg?oh=a5b8d356b c11d8fa53966189ac57de94&oe=5482B843&__gda__=1419788659_7ca5f8e9db360aaf3aab772deea1011 c
Here are the flares without the side skirts.


Front End
To move the front track forward, my idea was to utilize the stock MM K-member and modify the lower arms to accept heim joints and them push the arms further forward. Nothing that a few weld inserts and rod ends from Coleman can't handle. The front went forward about 2 1/2", so I had to move the rack as well. I was able to get right at an inch of foward movement before the front oil pan sump stopped me. There is no real way to move the rack in front of the oil pan (at least that I could tell). I still have to finish cutting the fenders and dealing with how to flare/cover what I have left.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/292063_3103430644106_6449415_n.jpg
Control arms in pieces

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/405206_3103435004215_847687107_n.jpg
Here is a picture of the front assembled, but without the spacers between the rod ends and the heim joints... Those were custom made to measure.

https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/253875_3103435404225_1276744554_n.jpg?oh=4d3f6ba1e f1e05f34f0caf76a5a86cf2&oe=549CAD51
Silver spacers on the rack and pinion.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/539064_3103436524253_270991026_n.jpg
Here is what I ended up with... 102.25" wheelbase

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/546501_3103440884362_2117999520_n.jpg
Flares anyone??

https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/310495_3147230019063_1666397257_n.jpg?oh=e5e91e10c 36ec1c813657f65b015a61f&oe=548E7C33

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/644656_3147232099115_884078269_n.jpg?oh=84a7b9424b 35ebdeca6147e65e9d73d3&oe=549C0A31&__gda__=1418035356_223b6b1eada3091bfaea05f4973fe08 4


Do we ever get done jacking with any of our crap??? Now I just need to build a compliant dash <sigh>....

RichardP
08-26-2012, 09:38 PM
There is no real way to move the rack in front of the oil pan (at least that I could tell).


A dry sump isn't allowed but a remote oil pump is. Then just cut the front hump off of the oil pan and weld it flat...


Very cool stuff. Nice job. :-)


Richard P.

David Love AI27
08-27-2012, 12:45 PM
Has Celine Dion retired?

marshall_mosty
08-27-2012, 02:36 PM
She's going to "part time" at Caesar's Palace starting next month... Shania Twain will start in December. Can't remember who the other "fill in" will be between September and December... I need to renew my fan club membership.

michaelmosty
08-27-2012, 03:29 PM
Has Celine Dion retired?
Nope, not as of a week and a half ago when Marshall was at her latest concert.
I wish I was kidding.

marshall_mosty
08-27-2012, 03:35 PM
Nope, not as of a week and a half ago when Marshall was at her latest concert.
I wish I was kidding.

It's the brownie points that keep ya married... You'll start understanding in less than 2 weeks, my older (but not necessarilly wiser) brother... :)

RichardP
08-27-2012, 05:27 PM
It's the brownie points that keep ya married...

Is that what your wife keeps saying when you force her to go to all these concerts with you...


Richard P.

BlueFirePony
08-28-2012, 12:28 AM
It's the brownie points that keep ya married... You'll start understanding in less than 2 weeks, my older (but not necessarilly wiser) brother... :)
I second that...just spent the better part of the evening painting samples so my wife could decide on the color for her '68...12 different blends, mixes, inter-coats, depths...we actually agreed on the same one..so it's all good ;)

Daniel Allford
08-28-2012, 10:22 AM
Very impressive work. It pays to listen to our resident NASA rocket scientist. Looking forward to a drivers report. Dammit it is almost enough to make me want to build an AI car, but not quite. However, you should apologize to the metal in the torque boxes, 'cuz welds that ugly must hurt.

Dan Allford

marshall_mosty
08-28-2012, 11:54 AM
Very impressive work. It pays to listen to our resident NASA rocket scientist. Looking forward to a drivers report. Dammit it is almost enough to make me want to build an AI car, but not quite. However, you should apologize to the metal in the torque boxes, 'cuz welds that ugly must hurt.

Dan Allford

Dan,
I did the best I could on the welds... I made sure they were "overdone" as to not be an issue later... They will be checked for cracking frequently.

edrock96GT
08-28-2012, 12:32 PM
...just spent the better part of the evening painting samples...

painting toenails is kinda the same thing. :D

rpoz27
08-28-2012, 03:05 PM
Don't you have 300lbs of ballast FORWARD of the rear axle? and now about 12 degrees of caster?

marshall_mosty
08-28-2012, 09:42 PM
Don't you have 300lbs of ballast FORWARD of the rear axle? and now about 12 degrees of caster?

I actually don't have any ballast at the moment (put to old, tired 306 back in). And I do have quite a bit of caster...

Rob Liebbe
08-29-2012, 06:05 PM
I actually don't have any ballast at the moment (put to old, tired 306 back in). And I do have quite a bit of caster...

Will it steer like a chopper or a Big Wheel?

RichardP
08-29-2012, 09:15 PM
And I do have quite a bit of caster...

Have you measured caster? I'm guessing you’re not too bad off and if you have too much you can easily fix it. If you have "adjustable" caster on your camber plates, it might actually be useful now. The adjustable plates are normally a joke because everyone just slams them all the way towards the firewall and only gets about half of the caster they would actually want if they could get more. With the increased caster, you should also be able to get away with less static camber.

With the way you moved the front control arms forward, they now need to be just a little bit longer to get to where you were. Additionally, maxing out track with wheel spacers is a CMC thing only. In AI, you should be extending the length of the arms to use minimal wheel spacers. The big stack of spacers does bad things to the scrub radius.

You do have a bit more ackerman now. I’m curious what the effect of that is going to be. Should also be interesting to see where your bump steer stack ends up. Fix your camber/caster first, though.

That’s a stupid amount of work for 1”. The attention to detail does make a difference, though. Maybe it will be as fast as stock newer Mustang with springs/shocks/bushings? The bigger question is what do you get when you take a new Mustang and put this much work into it…


Richard P.

marshall_mosty
08-30-2012, 12:58 PM
Richard,
At this point, I haven't realigned the front suspension. The bump steer stack is as good as I can get, but I still need to measure. I really need more stack, but have no room to do so.

The front moved forward 2.5" over what I had before.

The spacers will be between 1/2" and 3/4". I'd extend the arms some more to reduce scrub radius, but I chopped the MM arms as "long" as I could get them. I wished someone made a longer shank rod end that size, as that would be a way around it.

It was just a really fun thing for me to do. I like taking a concept and trying to apply it.

BryanL
08-30-2012, 01:15 PM
Have you measured caster? I'm guessing you’re not too bad off and if you have too much you can easily fix it. If you have "adjustable" caster on your camber plates, it might actually be useful now. The adjustable plates are normally a joke because everyone just slams them all the way towards the firewall and only gets about half of the caster they would actually want if they could get more. With the increased caster, you should also be able to get away with less static camber.

With the way you moved the front control arms forward, they now need to be just a little bit longer to get to where you were. Additionally, maxing out track with wheel spacers is a CMC thing only. In AI, you should be extending the length of the arms to use minimal wheel spacers. The big stack of spacers does bad things to the scrub radius.

You do have a bit more ackerman now. I’m curious what the effect of that is going to be. Should also be interesting to see where your bump steer stack ends up. Fix your camber/caster first, though.

That’s a stupid amount of work for 1”. The attention to detail does make a difference, though. Maybe it will be as fast as stock newer Mustang with springs/shocks/bushings? The bigger question is what do you get when you take a new Mustang and put this much work into it…


Richard P.
I feel like Larry the Cable Guy after reading that. "You did what?"

kbrewmr2
09-06-2012, 11:14 AM
people that try to make an (older) Mustang turn end up knowing more about suspension than just about anyone else

the rest of us just slap on springs, shocks, and drive :p

marshall_mosty
09-06-2012, 02:31 PM
people that try to make an (older) Mustang turn end up knowing more about suspension than just about anyone else

the rest of us just slap on springs, shocks, and drive :p
It's still turd polishing, but some polish a bit more than other. :)

rpoz27
09-06-2012, 02:41 PM
It's still turd polishing, but some polish a bit more than other. :)

Your car for ever more will be referred to as "franken-fox".

Oh, on the caster thing.....I do suggest ordering a LARGER steering wheel. ;)

marshall_mosty
09-06-2012, 04:59 PM
Your car for ever more will be referred to as "franken-fox".

Oh, on the caster thing.....I do suggest ordering a LARGER steering wheel. ;)

I've already started looking at steering wheels. What sizes to people run? I don't even know where to start? 14"

marshall_mosty
09-10-2012, 06:19 AM
Update...

Basically ready for ECR... Need to dyno the old engine again to set weight, but she's 2910 with me in it and 5 gallongs of gas, so we will start from there for ballast.

Front track is 74.25" and wheelbase is 102.5" now... Figured I'd run a bit shot/narrow just incase somebody's tape measure is shorter than mine...

And incase someone wants to copy the front flares, they are 280Z rear flares... Pretty easy to work with. Got the idea from Ed Hunter (AI guy).



http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s720x720/304550_3147229499050_1686421780_n.jpg

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/310495_3147230019063_1666397257_n.jpg

marshall_mosty
01-07-2013, 11:12 AM
Finally got the car corner weighted with the new Franken-FOX suspension. The old F/R was 56/44 and the new F/R is 53/47... 3150 lbs with a 50.8% cross weight.

marshall_mosty
02-11-2013, 10:05 AM
Latest progress pics with the flares 100% complete..

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/32172_3747758111890_613777912_n.jpg

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/529512_3747758031888_1966058698_n.jpg

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/560229_3747758071889_731922267_n.jpg