2013 CMC rules are posted

[Al Fernandez]

in the usual locations...

[Pranav]

7.17.3 Engine, transmission, and rear axle may have vents or breathers substituted or added including
venting to a remote tank.

If I actually felt inclined/compelled to do it, does that mean I could slap my spare passenger side valve cover on the driver's side of my LT1 to gain the additional vent?

[cobra132]

Now you guys are allowed to vent, OMG.

[RichardP]

One thing that didn't change but still makes me shake my head:

"Disqualifications and suspensions due to driving penalties will result in zero points which may be dropped from the annual points total. Disqualifications and suspensions due to technical non-compliance will result in zero points which may not be dropped from the annual points total."


Other rules changes make this more relevant to the Orange car since it can now get down below minimum weight where it couldn't before. Being one pound under weight on the scales is a non-droppable zero while punting, missing safety flags, etc. are droppable? I'm completely for 100% rules compliance but we still seem to be missing the boat on the punishment fitting the crime in many cases...


Richard P.

[Rsmith350]

The "recent changes" link doesn't work :( so 4th gens got 50lbs added.....awesome!

[Rsmith350]

Correction! They lost 50 and we gained 50! Nice!, and we lost 3/4 inch of track width!

[Rsmith350]

6.2 Horsepower/Torque and Minimum Weight Decal
All cars must display horsepower, torque, and minimum weight on a power/weight decal on the windshield.

Heads up! I will be looking for these starting at MSRH! We got extra stickers @NOLA

[Rsmith350]

7.1 Allowed Modifications
Other than those items specifically allowed by the rules, no other part or component may be modified, removed, or disabled. If there are any "questionable" or "gray" area modifications, the competitor shall contact the CMC Board of Directors for clarification before competition.

Just wanna point out that this part hasn't changed :)

[Alien]

The "recent changes" link doesn't work :( so 4th gens got 50lbs added.....awesome!

Um, third gens too. +100lbs since 2009. I'm curious how much longer the "oh, you don't need 4pots, stock brakes will hold up just fine" agrument will hold up at this rate.

[Rsmith350]

Amen, didn't catch that.

[RichardP]

Um, third gens too. +100lbs since 2009. I'm curious how much longer the "oh, you don't need 4pots, stock brakes will hold up just fine" agrument will hold up at this rate.


You will be fine. At least until we switch to the new tires that are 3 seconds a lap faster. Then you're screwed...



Richard P.

[AllZWay]

Um, third gens too. +100lbs since 2009. I'm curious how much longer the "oh, you don't need 4pots, stock brakes will hold up just fine" agrument will hold up at this rate.

I think we are already at that point... the extra weight isn't going to help that is for sure and then new tires next year will require it. I am not too happy to see the big weight penalties.

CMC racing is getting very close to that price/cost point where I say I am done.

[Fbody383]

CMC racing is getting very close to that price/cost point where I say I am done.What would the old formula be called now, CMC-minus-1? I need to go see the changes before I say too much stupid stuff... don't worry, I'll be back.

[Rob Liebbe]

Where is the link to the version with the changes highlighted?

[ShadowBolt]

I think we are already at that point... the extra weight isn't going to help that is for sure and then new tires next year will require it. I am not too happy to see the big weight penalties.

CMC racing is getting very close to that price/cost point where I say I am done.

I'm going to disagree with you James this time. You know I'm with you on wishing we had never gone to big brakes, never added more power, never gone to larger tires and wheels, etc. but you just won the whole damn thing with stock brakes running against two guys with near $5000.00 worth of Stoptechs. Now when the new tire gets here the whole thing may change but for sure you don't need big brakes to win in CMC now and I doubt this extra weight will change that. I bet you would still beat 98% of us with 500 extra pounds. I do understand that CMC cost way more than it could and that adding the S197 started us down this road to Hell. As soon as it gets to where everyone thinks they must have the Stoptechs to race (and the new tire may do this) then I will be with you on thinking of moving on.


JJ

[Fbody383]

Linky to 2013 Changes (http://www.nasaponycars.com/uploads/CMC_Changes_for_2013.pdf)

First, thanks to Al, Glenn, and the rest of the CMC Directors for giving their time so we can do this.

The commentary on minimum weight for 4th gens was interesting since I've come off track, not fuel starving at 3185 or so. I guess the good news is now I am "greatly encouraged" to add subframe connectors since it will be low weight that I need anyway.

Will the S197 cars have engine reliability issues getting down to the new HP/TQ levels?

What's the 3 year plan if the new tire really is that much stickier and stock brakes won't compete with the 4 pots?

Regardless, the plan is to have the car at dyno day and on the grid at Houston.

[ShadowBolt]

Linky to 2013 Changes (http://www.nasaponycars.com/uploads/CMC_Changes_for_2013.pdf)

Regardless, the plan is to have the car at dyno day and on the grid at Houston.

I plan to be right beside you.....or I hope, in front of you.

JJ

[AllZWay]

I'm going to disagree with you James this time. You know I'm with you on wishing we had never gone to big brakes, never added more power, never gone to larger tires and wheels, etc. but you just won the whole damn thing with stock brakes running against two guys with near $5000.00 worth of Stoptechs. Now when the new tire gets here the whole thing may change but for sure you don't need big brakes to win in CMC now and I doubt this extra weight will change that. I bet you would still beat 98% of us with 500 extra pounds. I do understand that CMC cost way more than it could and that adding the S197 started us down this road to Hell. As soon as it gets to where everyone thinks they must have the Stoptechs to race (and the new tire may do this) then I will be with you on thinking of moving on.


JJ

This coming year I think the stock brakes will get by.....but the next year no way. I am likely going to have to run a restrictor now to get down to 260-261 based on my cars weight. My car puts out 264 with no restrictor and I don't want the gigantic weight penaltly that comes for the couple of horses.

I now need to purchase restrictor plates again.

I have said many times that the directors have a very difficult job and one I don't want..but I do appreciate their efforts. Racing isn't cheap and I am aware of that...but I am just about at my personal limits of spending.

[Al Fernandez]

Come on James, the change to CMC2 for you was a couple of sets of wheels, a one time cost. Sure, brake pads and tires cost more nowadays, but thats because you guys drive too fast. If you slowed down to 8/10ths you'd be on one set of tires all year! ;)

David...I'm not happy about the prospects of the RR...I dont see it doing anything favorable, but thats just my opinion

[GlennCMC70]

Weight changes for 2013.
It was my understanding that the Fords didn't change and the GM's went up by 50lbs. Did someone say above that the Fords went down 50 and the GM's went up 50lbs?

[jdlingle]

Linky to 2013 Changes (http://www.nasaponycars.com/uploads/CMC_Changes_for_2013.pdf)

First, thanks to Al, Glenn, and the rest of the CMC Directors for giving their time so we can do this.

...

Will the S197 cars have engine reliability issues getting down to the new HP/TQ levels?



I wouldn't doubt it. Choking those engine back 40 horses could be interesting. It'll be interesting to see how those guys view the tradeoff of getting back on big boy tires versus cutting back that much HP.

[Daniel Allford]

They cost $2k BUT my pad usage is way down. And my rotor usage is zero. With stock stuff we were cracking rotors in 1 event and replacing them when they cracked to the edge every 3 weekends.

And they do stop better, even if you cant tell it when Im driving ;)

Dan #82

[GlennCMC70]

I wouldn't doubt it. Choking those engine back 40 horses could be interesting. It'll be interesting to see how those guys view the tradeoff of getting back on big boy tires versus cutting back that much HP.

My LT1 was pulled back 50hp back inthe days of 230/300. The LS1 is pulled back 40+ now (my bet is 50+). Why can it not work for the Fords?

[Rsmith350]

Weight changes for 2013.
It was my understanding that the Fords didn't change and the GM's went up by 50lbs. Did someone say above that the Fords went down 50 and the GM's went up 50lbs?
I did, going back to fact check now......yup,fact checked! Camaro gained 50, mustang lost 50.....apparently we're just gonna keep handicapping the fourth gen until a mustang wins! Can I sign up to make the trophy for Mosty?!

[michaelmosty]

I did, going back to fact check now......yup,fact checked! Camaro gained 50, mustang lost 50.....apparently we're just gonna keep handicapping the fourth gen until a mustang wins! Can I sign up to make the trophy for Mosty?!
Ross, the Mustang did not change weight from last year. It appears different b/c it "now" says the Fox drops 150 lbs from the table listed (instead of 100 lbs from last year). The change was because the base weight was changed from 3200 to 3250 lbs. In short my car min weight was 3100 lbs. last year and also for next year.

[michaelmosty]

They cost $2k BUT my pad usage is way down. And my rotor usage is zero. With stock stuff we were cracking rotors in 1 event and replacing them when they cracked to the edge every 3 weekends.

And they do stop better, even if you cant tell it when Im driving ;)

Dan #82
I completely agree. I have run the StopTechs for exactly 2 years now and have saved $500 in rotors alone. I would have saved $$ on the pads as well but PFC has jacked up their pad pricing for the StopTechs a ton over the last 2 years. I will likely be switching to another pad that is about 1/2 the price of the PFC's during the middle of next season.

[Rsmith350]

Apparently I suck at math :)

[Fbody383]

Come on James, the change to CMC2 for you was a couple of sets of wheels, a one time cost. Sure, brake pads and tires cost more nowadays... What's the one time cost of 2 sets of 17's and brakes, $3k?


David...I'm not happy about the prospects of the RR...I dont see it doing anything favorable, but thats just my opinionFaster cars just means we wear out or brake stuff faster and I'm not sure I can consistently use all the grip of an RA1.


... LT1 restricted... LS1 restricted... Didn't the LS motors have issues at 230hp? Maybe the S197 restriction is slight enough that it's not an issue. We don't need another fight around that.

And, I hope that we see the Fox/SN95 cars improve a little statistically overall relative to the other chassis; what's the clawback plan if it's truly clear that the rules went too far? I think rewards weight for the Show Ponies are in order...

[Pranav]

For what it's worth, I have $280 in my Wilwood Superlite calipers, $250 in my blainefab ducts, saved a few bucks on front pads because they are cheaper than standard F-body/C5 fitment, and spent a tiny bit more on those savings going to 13" C4 rotors (Centric premium, same as napa ultra premium but cheaper). For less than $600 in non-wear hardware, I'm hoping I have the same level of luck the Stoptech guys are having once I get to racing.

I know of a super-secret limited supply of cheap brackets that let you mount superlites on LS1 spindles, ready to go...

[Al Fernandez]

Using up brake parts more is not really my concern about the RRs. My concern is grippier tires will make the cars less fun to drive, make it harder to recover from a mistake, and that it'll increase the damage done by going off road. If it was only up to me, the tires would be rock hard and we'd be in full on four wheel drifts in every corner, waging the tail on every exit, and on the brakes for ever trying to keep the tires from locking. That, to me, would be more fun. But hey, I'm crazy!

[rpoz27]

Using up brake parts more is not really my concern about the RRs. My concern is grippier tires will make the cars less fun to drive, make it harder to recover from a mistake, and that it'll increase the damage done by going off road. If it was only up to me, the tires would be rock hard and we'd be in full on four wheel drifts in every corner, waging the tail on every exit, and on the brakes for ever trying to keep the tires from locking. That, to me, would be more fun. But hey, I'm crazy!
Or you start failing stock based suspension parts on your 20 year old cars while cornering at higher loads.....or you go up in spring rates to deal with grip and your "cheap" shocks can't cut it anymore... sounds like new opportunities to spend money. Those are things to think about when significantly upping the grip.

[David Love AI27]

CMC racing is getting very close to that price/cost point where I say I am done.

Too late for us...

for two years all I heard was... "just change motors", "bigger brakes are not that expensive", "we now have a source for $1600 shocks"...

I have yet to see a 3rd Gen upgrade that would cost less than $4000-5000 to be competitive...

[ShadowBolt]

Too late for us...

for two years all I heard was... "just change motors", "bigger brakes are not that expensive", "we now have a source for $1600 shocks"...

I have yet to see a 3rd Gen upgrade that would cost less than $4000-5000 to be competitive...

David you know I love you so that said I must tell you that all of us have wondered why you purchased the 3 car? Everyone knew that CMC1 was toast. You purchase the car then bitch when CMC1 was killed off. Several of us have wondered all along why you bought it?

I really doubt Gary spent four or five grand for his engine. In fact I bet he has less than that in the one that when boom at NOLA and the one he is replacing it with.

You do not need big brakes......James proved that this year. I bought the Wilwood kit from Don on the national board for $600.00 and I have them working great. The only thing I like better about the Stoptechs is the rotors. I go through four to six $60.00 rotors a year and Michael has not changed his in two years. I could purchase the Stoptech rotors but at over a grand I can go three years just to break even. I am considering getting them just so I don't have to screw with changing rotors. My pads for the Wilwoods cost $140.00 and they are double the thickness of the Cobras. I use only two sets a year!

You don't need $1600.00 shocks. I know James was not even running racing shocks a while ago and he has been fast since I started racing.

Get an engine in that POS and come race with us mid-pack slackers. Hell at ECR last year I was glad your boy did not have the extra power as it took all I have to keep him behind me.


JJ

[Alien]

For $5000, you'd be able to do all sorts of upgrades on your car! LT1, 4-pots, AND shocks.

$800 I picked up a wrecked '97 LT1, even came with a T56 to put into my streetcar.
$100 Power Steering Pump work
$100 Fuel lines
$200 exhaust rework
$300 valve springs, gaskets, a/c delete pulley and misc stuff. TPI oil pan swaps right over.
So for $1500, I dropped in the LT1. That's about what it costs to get a typical SBC rebuilt. I still havn't sold off the TPI yet, but can get a few hundred back from that. After my first few years running CMC1 at ~209hp, I was already expecting/wanting/bugeting to do a rebuild since I hadn't had any major failures so far.

$400 for spare LT1 longblock plus tin on CL

I'll agree that you NEED close to the 260hp to be competitive with comparable drivers. I doubt that if I got big brakes and AST's tomorrow, I'd be dicing it up with Mosty/Proctor/Dan. I like to think that if Wirtz or Burch campained my car as is sat pre-NOLA, it'd be on the podium each weekend.

I understand everyone's threshold for "how much is too much" is different. I have my racing budget, works out to be $1000 per race weekend, and $500 in maint/repairs/upgrades per year. It's difficult to do an entire season on much less than that. No major breakages in the first 3 years let me do the LT1 upgrade. No major breakages the next year let me upgrade to a T2R. Engine blow'd up this year means next upgade (brakes maybe?) gets kicked further down the road. If you don't have at least $500 set aside in your racing budget for maint/repairs per year, you're in the wrong hobby. <stole that saying from someone at NOLA>

[David Love AI27]

David you know I love you so that said I must tell you that all of us have wondered why you purchased the 3 car? Everyone knew that CMC1 was toast. You purchase the car then bitch when CMC1 was killed off. Several of us have wondered all along why you bought it?

JJ

I went to the top at Nationals and asked if CMC1 was going to be eliminated... answer "no"... "there should be enough interest to keep it going"... "low cost with limited upgrades made the series what it is today"... I had great expectations based on conversations with "higher ups" outside of the Texas Region... No big deal... Jason did an outstanding job in that car and thats all that counts...

Nowadays I enjoy taking it to DE's and running with other instructors and showing what that car can do and showing off my driving skills in other peoples cars...

Love to see the look on someones face when I show them the potential of their street cars...

Planning to make all the events next year, I miss the fellowship..