Blew another motor

[Pranav]

Running out at TWS (CCW) today, car felt tight and great, then I went off on T2, bumped a curb getting back on like an idiot.

Watched gauges like a hawk with plans to pit out for an inspection, motor locked up approaching T13-T14.

Thought I might've ruptured the pan and lost oil to cause this, but first look shows back of pan to be fully intact. Front of pan of course is chewed up from the rotating assembly trying to leave the motor through the pan. I don't recall an oil pressure warning or obvious signs of smoke out the back BEFORE it let go and siezed.

I'll know more once I pull the motor and have a clear view of the pan, to see if it was me and my bump that caused this. Unsure how else a motor that, after 5 weekends and three dyno sessions, returns clean oil filters, does not run lean (fuel trims and measured A/F) , nor does not misfire can go boom with no warning.

I've got the LT1 pull/undress/dress/install down like the back of my hand now. Part of me wants to get this sorted out by Cresson, part of me wants to throw in the towel and take a break for a while.

Anyone got a short block and heads?

[Supercharged111]

Do you lose oil pressure in the corners? Do you trust your engine builder?

[Pranav]

The engine builder comes highly regarded in Houston, I will not post that business's name on a public forum.

I'm not sure about the oil pressure, I have the warning set low and it has never once gone off (backed up with data logs) the entire time this motor has run. Running a canton pan filled correctly and verified oil pump pickup depth was set correctly by builder before I bolted down pan/gasket myself.

One step at a time, if I pull the motor tomorrow and see an obvious crack from an off-track I have answered that question.

If not I'll give the builder a chance to look at it, but I will shop for another builder if it looks like a build issue (struggling to see how).

[Casey_SS]

Really sorry to hear this Pranav, that sucks! You say the back of the oil pan is intact as far as ruptures go but is it dinged up at all? It's possible the curb could've knocked it just enough to squeeze the gap between the pickup and the bottom of the pan. It wouldn't take much - 1/4" or so IIRC. Were you maybe running a long oil filter that took a hit? Pretty suspicious to have the motor completely seize less than a lap after the off...

[Supercharged111]

What's crazy is how my motor survived 2 races last year with seconds long intervals of virtually no oil pressure. My water pump drive oil seal walked out and halfway through a race I'd lose nearly all pressure in a corner. It took a few seconds of a straightaway to restore pressure, and with corners packed together it didn't always recover. Why didn't I stop? First time in my life I was leading the pack. My point is your motor may have been dealing with an oil delivery problem for more than just one lap.

[Pranav]

I get what you're saying, but wouldn't I have been picking up material in the oil filter if I had an issue? I've pulled 7 clean oil filters since June...

Anyways further inspection of the oil pan shows nothing that would indicate a puncture or dent, in fact I was able to manually drain a ton of fluid this morning so the bottom of the pan was not punctured. Just got the drive line out and on the floor, taking stuff off tonight and should get a closer look once is elevated.

[Pranav]

I also neglected to mention that I've been having a hard time operating the steering wheel since MSRH. I don't like to make excuses but my recollection of my last two offs (MSRH and yesterday) involved me fighting the wheel (but yes other factors always contribute).

Swapping pumps hasn't done anything (I keep a spare).

Probably will swap the rack too while I'm in there, just AC Delco this time.

[Pranav]

Oh yeah and to answer your Casey, I don't run a long oil filter, it sits about 1-1.5" above the bottom of the pan. The nice long 2 Qt filter would sit below the pan and would've been a hazard...

[Supercharged111]

Probably will swap the rack too while I'm in there, just AC Delco this time.

Have you considered a Turn One rack?

[Pranav]

It is a Turn One rack. Went in the car in Nov 2013.

[dtanker65]

Sorry to hear about the motor. Have you done a post-mortem yet?

[Pranav]

Pulled heads pan/intake/heads. This is what I know so far:

1. No evidence of the pan touching the ground/curb ever. It is fully intact with exception to where the #1/#2 (front-most) rods exiting the block in the front, which is up above the rack/subframe. It held plenty of fluid that took a while to drain out when I pulled the plug.

2. The oil pump pickup is intact, and still has the 3/8" clearance to the pan it had when it all was assembled. Oil pump still spins freely.

3. Cut open oil, it is spotless yet again.

4. In the pan I have pieces/chunks of both #1/2 rods, and the #1 (driver's front) piston in 5 pieces. #2 (passenger front) piston is stuck in the block. No blueing/purpling of what is left of the rod bearings.

5. #1 "dome" of the driver's head is trashed. There is a nice witness mark of one of the #2 valves on hitting the piston and a corresponding mark of that same piston that is stuck in the block with no connecting rod.

6. All other 6 rods/pistons/walls/chambers look fine. All main caps are intact. I forgot to try and rotate crank with the heads off but it did turn a little with the heads on (obviously crap in #1/#2 chambers stopped it).

As expected longblock is a total loss. I have another longblock lined up for a great price (thanks Sean!).

The machine shop gets to look at busted motor, I'm open to recommendations on where to send the next motor.

I've contemplated a move up to LS1, as I have a front clip available for a great price, but that would entail longterm downtime and having to discard/sell a lot of great LT1-specific stuff...

[mach1]

Do you really pickup reliability with a LS1? Sorry to hear about the motor, I wonder when mine is going to go, I imagine snapping the crank like Michael has done a few times. My motor is a 160k explorer motor with new bearings, 160k mile rings, new oil pump. Bearings are at .002 on mains and rods, 7qt pan, Rotella T6 oil. Do you have a 0-5v sensor going to a racepak USM for oil pressure data?

[AllZWay]

It is really hard to tell afterwards, but yours sounds more like just a rod failure which is pretty rare at the rpm's we turn.

If it had been a simple bearing failure, you should have heard that before the rod broke.

[dtanker65]

The Canton pan is baffled pretty good and should trap oil, so long as oil is returning to it. If it oil starvation caused, I would expect trash in the filter and the other bearings to be affected. The motors I have blown from oil starvation have all started to knock as the bearings go. Do you think a lean condition on the 1/2 cylinders could have seized the pistons? I might explain the witness marks, if the rod stretched as the piston started to drag prior to seizing. What do the domes and cylinder walls on 1/2 look like?

[Pranav]

Yeah, the last failure was multiple rod bearings at the beginning of TWS 2014, and that was me hearing it at the end of MSRC 2014 and choosing to be dumb and think it was lifter noise. I settled on that being caused with constant ignition issues (loss of spark) for 3 straight events prior to that.

This time around, I have been cutting open oil filters after every outing and dyno session, and the motor felt great until it just stopped. Rod/piston failure and head/valve contact for sure, just not sure which caused the other.

Another factor is these heads have been milled down a LOT, many times. Valves would be closer than usual?

Any-how, LS1 is out for now, I am picking up another LT1 longblock tomorrow night after I drop the trashed one off today. Tyler, yes I'm running a 3 wire 5V oil pressure sensor to the USM...

[AllZWay]

If it were head to valve hitting issue, the top of the piston would show signs of that.

[Pranav]

What was left of that piston did, but the valve was definitely showing a fold mark. Just not sure if that happened first or was the result of a rod failure. I need to get the pics up...

[Pranav]

The Canton pan is baffled pretty good and should trap oil, so long as oil is returning to it. If it oil starvation caused, I would expect trash in the filter and the other bearings to be affected. The motors I have blown from oil starvation have all started to knock as the bearings go. Do you think a lean condition on the 1/2 cylinders could have seized the pistons? I might explain the witness marks, if the rod stretched as the piston started to drag prior to seizing. What do the domes and cylinder walls on 1/2 look like?

Domes and walls are trashed from the carnage unfortunately. I wanted to clarify per my last reply that there is just one valve showing contact to the piston....

[dtanker65]

I would expect a single rod failure to maybe hammer the crap out of the rod next to it, but it would be hard to explain the damage to the other piston in this scenario. We had an aircraft engine eject an entire rod through the case and the surrounding area of the engine (looking through the hole) looked normal except for hammer marks. The only piston seizing I have seen is from lean mixture on the two strokes, mis-dimensioned piston/ring clearance or overheating from coolant loss.

[AllZWay]

The post mortem of a catastrophic engine failure is really difficult, especially if the engine looks like a grenade was pitched inside of it.

[ShadowBolt]

James is correct but if you really have a seized piston I would start looking there. I have never seen that except on two stroke engines. My first 2003 Lightning had a wrist pin clip left out at the factory and when the pin came out of one side of the piston it dug into the cylinder wall. It could have seized but it made a lot of noise prior. I assume the LT has pressed wrist pins like the older GM small blocks and no wrist pin clips? If a rod broke or a piston failed why would a piston be seized?

JJ

[Pranav]

Well the piston is broken into three pieces and the wrist pin boss is disintegrated, which may be why it's stuck in the block. I don't have any recolection of blueing of cylinder walls but didn't get a close look, just saw gouges from everything flying apart.

Just dropped the motor off with the builder so they can tear it down at look. I had put everything that came out of the oil pan in a box, guy took one look suspects a broken rod bolt may have started the chain reaction, but we will see.

There was agreement that there was no sign of blue-ing/burning from any kind of oiling/heat issue, so the curb-hitting-pan theory is out (since the pan was still intact, no dents, pickup clearance still at 3/8", etc).

Sorry guys I've been too busy to get the pictures off the phone and uploaded and I'm feeding little bits of info at a time so this may be misleading.Engines are not my forte, I just thought dropping off parts and writing a check was the way to go...

[mach1]

Considering no signs of heat I'd say rod or rod bolt failure, you ran it to 9000 rpm one too many times!
The teeeeny tiny 5/16 rod bolts on my 302 worry me but they seem to hold up considering the honda like stroke of the 302.
Oh, lets see the carnage pics.

[Supercharged111]

Stock rod bolts or ARP?

[Pranav]

ARP...

Stock early LT1 rods (not the powdered metal newer ones), Sealed Power OE style Hyper-a-teu-however-you-say it pistons.

[GlennCMC70]

Commonly referred to as "pink" rods.

[AllZWay]

ARP...

Stock early LT1 rods (not the powdered metal newer ones), Sealed Power OE style Hyper-a-teu-however-you-say it pistons.

If you had ARP studs, then it most likely still had to be a rod failure or like Jerry said a wrist pin that moved out of place.

[Pranav]

Glenn what all do you have in your motor? Stock/original pistons or did you go up an overbore/aftermarket? Stock or ARP bolts?

[Pranav]

Carnage pics, does the link work?

https://plus.google.com/100696200516171613970/posts/En3wWF7yqzD

[GlennCMC70]

New oem size pistons. Cheep stuff. 93 crank and rods.

[GlennCMC70]

Stock bolts. Plenty strong for what we do.

[Pranav]

New oem size pistons. Cheep stuff. 93 crank and rods.

Do you know what brand pistons? Second time on Sealed Power pistons for me. I am on original 92-94 rods as well.

[GlennCMC70]

No idea. Machine shop specials.

[Supercharged111]

Commonly referred to as "pink" rods.

Really? So they didn't get the TBI truck rods? Or did the TBI trucks all get the pink rods too?


Carnage pics, does the link work?

https://plus.google.com/100696200516171613970/posts/En3wWF7yqzD

Now that looks like an illegal modification to reduce rotating mass right there. :mrgreen:

[Pranav]

Yeah, I've had a couple of guys outside of our group recommend I try forged stuff, which I don't believe to be legal.

There is no point, we don't rev high and make less than stock power. Hard to explain this to them sometimes.

I shouldn't be breaking rods/pistons. I'm digging thru all of the datalogs right now and cannot find an example of a mis-shift sending me above 6k RPMs this year...

[Suck fumes]

What's your air fuel ratio? Was the motor detonating possibly?

[Pranav]

Last three dynos (pre-race, post-race health check, 2015 required) had the wideband reading 12.5-13ish.

No misfire codes, I can't hear/feel anything funny.

Last build had ignition misfires which was a whole saga to fix, but got fixed before this motor was run.

[ShadowBolt]

Carnage pics, does the link work?

https://plus.google.com/100696200516171613970/posts/En3wWF7yqzD

Wow! You did that one right. Just about filled the oil pan with pieces.

JJ

[Pranav]

I keep telling people I can just disconnect the #1/#2 valves and run it as a 4.3 V6.

[ShadowBolt]

Run forged stuff if you like. It will not make you one tenth faster but something else is going on.

JJ

[Pranav]

Oh I won't...

[Rob Liebbe]

Can this be some form of harmonic/vibration induced failure?

[dtanker65]

I see what James was saying about it being difficult to diagnose grenade damage. Looking more like rod bolt failure if the damage to the 1/2 cylinder walls is from shrapnel behind the pistons as opposed to seizing. I would be looking for what is left of the rod bolts. My local machine shop re-uses rod bolts which I am not sure is a good idea for the rpm range we operate in. I have been doing research on fasteners since getting my Ford which uses quite a few one time use fasteners. The instructions for the ARP rod bolts I used on the last Windsor motor I assembled said they are re-usable if they are measured with a stretch gauge prior to removal and re-torqued to the measured stretch length. I think using new bolts is more important than the brand of bolts. You have no idea if a used bolt has been previously torqued past its yield point, if it has, it will fail. The coating on the new bolts is also critical to getting proper torque which is really bolt stretch value.

[marshall_mosty]

Can this be some form of harmonic/vibration induced failure?
Michael had a balancer go bad (Romac) and grenade a motor... can happen

[ShadowBolt]

Michael had a balancer go bad (Romac) and grenade a motor... can happen

If this is the same balancer on all the blown engines maybe you just found the problem? I did not know Michaels engine tore up like this one.

[mach1]

Michael had a balancer go bad (Romac) and grenade a motor... can happen

Did he just buy another one? What was wrong with the bad one?
I feel like my 302 is a time bomb because of the cast crank and 50oz imbalance hanging way out from the front main cap, that plus the fact I take it all the way to the limiter.

[Pranav]

Funny ya'll should say that, I have the same ATI Super damper balancer the entire time across all three motors.

My first motor was a used motor that I never built, just re-gasketed it and threw it in; we found pieces of a broken lifter in the pan during re-gasket job when I first got it, that should've been our first sign to send it off for a proper rebuild but I was young and dumb. It had a bad ring out the box, and very quickly spun a lifter during comp school. This motor had also just overheated too many times at every event, along with residual block/hole damage from the spun lifter, so I was not comfortable rebuilding it. Rotating assembly and lower bearings were OK however...

I only saved the heads/intake/pan off it for the second motor.

Second and third (this motor) was built by the same machine shop using a different short block, reusing the heads/intake/pan off the first motor. First time with stock bolts and Clevite P bearings, this time with ARPs and Clevite H bearings. On their first build, I killed the rod rear bearings that were going for some time (which I believed to be caused by 3 events worth of ignition issues, so I paid for the rebuild), and this time it was the front two cylinders and an instant failure with me doing everything by the book.

I am sending the balancer off to ATI as a preventative rebuild, or should I just get a new one?

I have talked to another engine builder that a number of you guys like, I think I will be working with him now. The current engine builder has a great reputation and I don't want to think this is any of their fault, but I have to take engine building out of the equation by trying someone else out if I decide to rebuild the longblock I am picking up tonight. This is particularly difficult as this builder is in my backyard, remembers everything I say, and is spot-on with service and getting stuff done on time. Maybe if we find the root cause and/or they cut me a break I may still give them a shot...

[AllZWay]

Seeing the pictures, I still think it was one of two things.

Broken rod close to the wrist pin that mangled the piston.
or a busted piston, but not from the valve since it doesn't look mangled. The head area looks like pieces of the piston were being beat between the top of the piston and head until the piston completely came apart.

Could a bolt or something have fallen through the intake onto the top of the piston?

[Pranav]

Hmm, I haven't had the intake pipe off since June I think. To recall I'm pretty sure it hasn't been off since the summer. I didn't see anything off about the backside of the throttle body and not sure if anything can come off/fall off inside the intake as it should just be solid aluminum all the way to the ports?

[Pranav]

oh, and to address that, I will not plan to re-use the intake either. It had been milled quite a bit to fit the heads, which had also been re-used three times, which are also now trash.

Luckily I have two extra intakes I got for free.

[mach1]

I think I saw Craig messing with your intake and a handful of bolts after R4 @ MSRH ???

[Pranav]

Shh! He doesn't know about the marbles I left in his t5 case when I was at his shop last weekend!

[ShadowBolt]

Im with James on this one but it's just a guess. What is the builder saying?

JJ

[Pranav]

When presented with the contents of the pan his instinct was rod or rod bolt. I told them to tear it down ASAP and figure out if anything is obvious.

Gonna try to stop by there tomorrow on my way, will see what they say, I need to pickup my timing cover and a few things.

So much bigger news, went down to pickup a used 94 motor from Sean, I didn't realize it was Morgan Dawdy's old street car motor, it had never gone further than running SCCA F-Stock for autocross before he parked it for a while and sold it to Ross who then parted it out. It already has the LT4 valve springs and fresh valve stem seals (he knew of a trick to replace them without pulling the heads). Beyond the intake being off once for fresh RTV/gaskets, and the pan being off for fresh crank seals and pump, it is a virgin motor that ran mobil 1 most of its life. Heads and rotating assembly have never been messed with.

I just got done talking to him about the history where he walked me through some of the receipts/logs, and I'm pretty impressed. It is 180k miles but it is a solid motor.

Tired of engine builders and wasting money, running a clean used motor is what I intended on doing when I first built the car, I'm inclined to throw this is as in with the basic necessities.

[Pranav]

Alright, just went by the engine builder. I had just intended to pickup my cam and timing cover to make Morgan's motor work with my 95+ opti and stuff this weekend, and already have a pan and stuff on the way to get that motor in the car this weekend. They had already torn down the broken motor and looked at everything. As expected, every single part of the rest of the motor was still perfect. All remaining rod bearings and all main bearings were perfect, all cylinder walls, pretty much everything that didn't touch the front two cylinders. There was no oiling issue, so me running over that bump had nothing to do with it, end of story on that, thank god.

The three things that stuck out to the builder:
1. One of the two the piston pins was sitting in the pan completely free of a rod. Was there a press fit issue? Like Jordan said if a piston pin walked it out would've gouged out the side of the cylinder wall, which wasn't the case here. Both cylinder walls were still clean with exception to the few craters left by the carnage.

2. There was a ARP rod bolt broken half sitting in the pan with a loose nut on it. The threads were fine inside it. Did it just back off at TWS? Maybe? Possibly? A loosely or under-torqued rod bolt can't have held up for 4+ events without an issue? Talking to the builder, he flat out stated that any motor he's personally built in the last 25+ years hasn't come back for a loose rod bolt; he didn't build this one personally, however.

3. The last motor I blew (which was my fault, 3 events of ignition issues = spun bearings), we noticed that the one piston that failed from smacking the head (when you spin a rod bearing and stack the pieces, there is no clearance left between piston/head in the LT1, so the two collide) had a broken/missing skirt and pin boss. That totally is an effect of a rod crushing a piston on a head and it buckling. Same case here with the one piston that was still intact and stuck in the cylinder. It's really hard to blame a piston for buckling when the rod is shoving it into the head, but that was a commonality with the last failure so we're inclined to go with a different piston.

Long story short without even having to fight, the builder offered all labor for a rebuild to the same level of what I've done in the past and then some. I would be out the cost on the new Canton pan, rings, bearings and gaskets and they'd take care of the rest.

We talked back and forth about the 3 points listed above, and agreed to go with a different piston, and going with new GM/Chevy PM rods since they are now being sold/offloaded cheaper than the cost of reconditioning what comes out of the motor (gets me my motor back sooner and avoids any risk of the reconditioning process being a potential root cause).

It was a difficult decision to make, given Morgan's motor was well cared for and I had every intention to just us it as is this weekend; the builder has identified/addressed the three different potential weak points (rod bolt torquing, piston pin press fit, style of piston), and has plenty of motors out on circle tracks and roadcourses (including CMC) running strong. We're also starting on a clean sheet with a new longblock with a well-known history. I have no idea what the previous shortblock had been through on the street before I had them build it twice.

If I blow this one be sure to give me as much crap as possible and make a rule allowance to just run a Toyota i-force motor in the CMC car. I have never broken one of those.

[Pranav]

Sorry, I mispoke on the rod bolt nut. It was sitting in the pan with the snapped off half of the rod bolt still going thru it, but it was loose sitting like that. Perhaps since there was no longer a rod cap in place holding it in tension? That is what was discussed...

[dtanker65]

Here is my two cents Pranav.

Sounds like a stand up machine shop, take them up on their offer. A lot of shops would tell you that you are on your own racing a stock motor. The used motor sounds like a good one, build it up as a spare with new parts, but I wouldn't tear it down. Install a new cam, lifters and timing set if the one it has won't work for you. I would shit can the cam and everything else from the rotating assembly of the blown motor! A sudden stop will stress those parts and those stresses may or may not show up in a NDT inspection. It is a small price to pay to prevent destroying the new motor. Don't forget to flush out the oil lines, cooler and adapter very thouroughly.

Dennis

[ShadowBolt]

Here is my two cents Pranav.

Sounds like a stand up machine shop, take them up on their offer. A lot of shops would tell you that you are on your own racing a stock motor. The used motor sounds like a good one, build it up as a spare with new parts, but I wouldn't tear it down. Install a new cam, lifters and timing set if the one it has won't work for you. I would shit can the cam and everything else from the rotating assembly of the blown motor! A sudden stop will stress those parts and those stresses may or may not show up in a NDT inspection. It is a small price to pay to prevent destroying the new motor. Don't forget to flush out the oil lines, cooler and adapter very thouroughly.

Dennis

Dennis are you an A&P?

JJ

[Pranav]

Good point, I am hunting for a 95+ LT1 cam. I have a local radiator shop flushing out the radiator, oil lines and cooler; cooler/lines are very likely clean but did so anyways.

Yes everything else from the busted motor is going in the trash and the heads/intake for scrap money. Anything else that could even be re used is less than the cost of one RR tire and not worth it.

[AI#97]

I have never broken one of those.

you just jinxed yourself! Personally, I think you need some Corvette Rods! ;)

[dtanker65]

Dennis are you an A&P?

JJWhen I can't find something easier to do for a living. I am currently a pilot.

[Pranav]

I have located another cam. So now nothing rotating is being reused.

[Pranav]

Picked motor up Tuesday evening, got the work area all nice and setup. Ever since, the phone/email has been ringing non stop with work and wedding (cousin's) related crap, so last night I was already 24 hours behind schedule.

Finally get free and start applying RTV to the pan/gasket/block per Canton's instructions.

Then I find that some tard at the fel-pro factory put the wrong gasket in the box. Right box, right sticker on the box, wrong gasket. Had to spend a bunch of time cleaning off the RTV before it would set since it would be 8 hours before the parts store opens.

F me.

[Pranav]

Got motor running late this afternoon, a full 48 hours later than planned. All is looking good until I see a steady drip of water from the back driver's side. Steam pipes? No? Heads? Oh crap!

Grab a pressure tester at autozone and pressurize it to just below where the cap would open (20 psi) and find a stead drip from one of the freeze plugs on the back side.

Total bitch to get to and extraction took all gdamn night. F me.

All I have left to do is plumb my oil cooler, then throw on the dshaft/torque arm, steering shaft, hookup/bleed brakes, and tie/clamp up all the loose wiring and I'm ready to hit the dyno. Guess I'm not sleeping.

[ShadowBolt]

Got motor running late this afternoon, a full 48 hours later than planned. All is looking good until I see a steady drip of water from the back driver's side. Steam pipes? No? Heads? Oh crap!

Grab a pressure tester at autozone and pressurize it to just below where the cap would open (20 psi) and find a stead drip from one of the freeze plugs on the back side.

Total bitch to get to and extraction took all gdamn night. F me.

All I have left to do is plumb my oil cooler, then throw on the dshaft/torque arm, steering shaft, hookup/bleed brakes, and tie/clamp up all the loose wiring and I'm ready to hit the dyno. Guess I'm not sleeping.

If you can get the tires you need hauled to Cresson to my shop in Hutto before 4:30 today I have 41.5" open on my tire rack. I measured a RA1 last night and it was 10.25 wide so I assume 4 RR's will fit. I am hauling two new RR's (not mounted) but I think I can put them under the coach.

JJ

[ShadowBolt]

I'm not sure I would worry about the DYNO. I doubt anyone will have an issue with you running without if you get it done after.

JJ

[JMR81]

There is a dyno at MER right next to the Texaco. we used last year.

[ShadowBolt]

There is a dyno at MER right next to the Texaco. we used last year.


Yep and he gets $179.00 for three pulls. No thanks. Been there done that.


Jerry

[marshall_mosty]

B
Yep and he gets $179.00 for three pulls. No thanks. Been there done that.


Jerry

They quoted me $125 on the phone for 3 cert pulls last week.

[AllZWay]

Yep and he gets $179.00 for three pulls. No thanks. Been there done that.


Jerry

I remember steam boiling out of your ears too. :D

[ShadowBolt]

B

They quoted me $125 on the phone for 3 cert pulls last week.

I paid $179.00 last year and that is what the web site says. If I can get it for $125.00 at the track it may be worth it.

JJ

[Pranav]

Things took a turn for the better. Ended up pulling an all nighter thanks to fighting with that gdamn freeze plug all night. Finally got it out after numerous hours of trying to yank it out from an awkward corner of engine. I then took a rubber adjustable plug and tightened it up, no way I was going to try hammer in another brass plug at an angle! Sealed right up and held 20psi forever.

Went on to scramble to finish the car with no sleep, made it to the last dyno slot of the day. Car ran strong with no issues. No strange/leaks noises, and the oil filter came back "good" for a break in when I got home and cut it open.

Getting a good nights sleep, have a bunch of cleanup stuff to knock out, and I'm good to go.

Was really hoping to get a solid alignment on the car as I have too much camber now that I'm on stiffer springs, may solicit help at MSRC...


If you can get the tires you need hauled to Cresson to my shop in Hutto before 4:30 today I have 41.5" open on my tire rack. I measured a RA1 last night and it was 10.25 wide so I assume 4 RR's will fit. I am hauling two new RR's (not mounted) but I think I can put them under the coach.

JJ

Much thanks Jordan but I'll go scoop them up from Morgan on the way up, he gets off work a little later in the evening and I won't be there till then anyways.


I'm not sure I would worry about the DYNO. I doubt anyone will have an issue with you running without if you get it done after.

JJ

Lol, my desire to dyno has nothing to do with compliance, and everything with diagnostic. For me towing the car 30 minutes away from the garage on a weekday and paying $100 to watch the dyno beat on the car and check for issues gives me plenty of piece of mind going into an event. Better for me to find a problem on the dyno at home than at the track 300 miles away from home...

I paid $100 for an hour's time, came out to at least 10 pulls. $179 for 3 pulls that is highway robbery!

[Supercharged111]

I'd bring a spare rubber plug to the track if I were you. They blew them out regularly on Roadkill in the Ranchero road trip episode.

[Pranav]

Motor performed quite well this weekend. Oil filters have come back clean so far, no funny noises. Was also happy to see that the oil pan now seals correctly after massaging the ridges on the engine stand and being more aggressive with the RTV. Back side of pan was bone dry!

I still however, have a persistent front crank seal. 3 blocks/cranks, 2 timing covers, 4 different brands of seals, an ATI steel hub, and an ATI aluminum hub, still leaks a good amount and makes a mess. Got bigger fish to fry at the moment...


I'd bring a spare rubber plug to the track if I were you. They blew them out regularly on Roadkill in the Ranchero road trip episode.

Oh yeah, I brought spare metal and rubber plugs.

The rubber plug didn't leak a drop the entire weekend. Keep it in or try a brass one again? Easy to test in the garage with the pressure tester...

[Pranav]

Freeze plug is holding plenty fine, clean oil filters, and motor is leak free with exception to that front crank seal. It has made the same mess up front across all three of my builds (2 sets of heads, 2 short blocks, 3 cranks), plus my first, used motor that had one or more bad rings, with 4-5 different brands of seals, two timing covers, and two different crank hubs. General consensus is motor is not breathing right, PCV not sufficient; tried two different styles of PCV valves and other crap over the past 2 years. I'd normally let it go but it is a HUGE leak and I've previously opened up an opti with some evidence of oil intrusion before. Going to convert to an open breather setup and hope it fixes it; this should be my last issue...

[Supercharged111]

So now to keep the car pointed in the forward direction. . . :D

[Pranav]

At some point during the weekend the computer decided it needed +20% more fuel on bank 1 (driver's) side.

Car seemed to run OK during the last race but may potentially explain my feeling of being down on power on day 1. Not one to make excuse about my driving but felt I was getting pulled on hard.

I logged the data from the last race and will review it when I get the chance.

Checked the oil filter and it is clean so going down this list once I get back near the car:

-Check for exhaust leaks
-Check/swap O2s side to side
-Lift/check injectors, swap side to side
-Check spark
-Check compression + plugs

What else?

[Pranav]

Forgot to mention it would intermittently idle real low, like 600 RPMs...

[Supercharged111]

Can you see your O2 voltage? 20% is pegged, i.e. the PCM will not add or subtract any more than 20% so could be a bad O2 sensor. My truck did this recently, but decided bank 2 needed 20% less fuel and suddenly I was driving a 4 cylinder. Since I had the laptop with me when it did this, I switched over to open loop on the fly and the truck ran fine. I posted my logs and someone pointed me to where the right O2 would peg at 1100mV and my fuel trims along with it. What kind of software are you using?

[Pranav]

I was just using Torque for android with a bluetooth adapter; I could see both O2s bouncing up/down the .1-.9v range as they should

At idle the short tem trims seemed fine but after flipping the master switch for a while and starting it up, i could see the long term climb up; i left grid for the last race with it at 10% and came back to observer it being 20.something and having the intermittent odd idle.


Also the peg mark is 25%, after which you would get a lean code. I had no codes besides the emissions stuff.

What laptop software do you have? looks like I need to get a obd cable for hte laptop and some real software, but dont want to pay hundreds of dollars for HPTuners or whatever else.

[Supercharged111]

I have EFILive on my truck and it pegged at 20% IIRC. Mine has a 411 PCM from an LS based truck and I flashed a different operating system to it to run my old school gen 1 small block. If you can view your data like this, it'll be easy to spot. Without this view, I was clueless. I previously only viewed data in maps which just averaged everything out.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/supercharged111/GMC/Rocker%20Install/GMC%20O2_zpsajqqyo64.png (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/supercharged111/media/GMC/Rocker%20Install/GMC%20O2_zpsajqqyo64.png.html)

[Pranav]

Nice, yeah I just ordered an ELM327 cable, I'll try my hand at one of the free tools out there, I think this would be neat to have long term.

I can definitely confirm on the LT1 PCM the max is 25% after which the lean code would be triggered.

Also my bluetooth logger only logged GPS data so I have nothing in regards to on track data for now :(

[marshall_mosty]

Nice, yeah I just ordered an ELM327 cable, I'll try my hand at one of the free tools out there, I think this would be neat to have long term.

I can definitely confirm on the LT1 PCM the max is 25% after which the lean code would be triggered.

Also my bluetooth logger only logged GPS data so I have nothing in regards to on track data for now :(



All this craziness is a competitive advantage for the GM's... When the Ford system messes up, all we get to do is guess what's going on.. Sure wish I would have been able to datalog my motor during R3. I have NO clue why it changed the exhaust note or went to 15:1 A/F... All I know is the car is now dead in the water with no sign of life anytime soon... :(

[Pranav]

There is no GM advantage here, I'm just taking advantage of having an OBD2 computer in my car. Can't image doing this in anything older....

[RichardP]

There is no GM advantage here, I'm just taking advantage of having an OBD2 computer in my car. Can't image doing this in anything older....

I agree. This isn't a Ford vs. Chevy thing. This is a model year technology thing. If you took your antique pushrod based 331 Ford and swapped it for a newer/better 4.6 you would have all of this data available. There is a small issue of displacement, horsepower, and CG height, a bit bigger issue of torque, and of course the absurd physical size thing that make working on it a nightmare. And there is a small selection of (extremely expensive) parts to help tweak some of those drawbacks a little bit. But newer is better.

Of course, if you have a Chevy, newer gets you the data, the displacement, the horsepower and the torque, without the drawbacks of size and CG. And a much bigger selection of parts to get to where you want. Too bad putting a Chevy in a Ford is an abomination that can never be allowed to exist (except for pretty much everywhere, outside of AI).

Richard P.

[BryanL]

I agree. This isn't a Ford vs. Chevy thing. This is a model year technology thing. If you took your antique pushrod based 331 Ford and swapped it for a newer/better 4.6 you would have all of this data available. There is a small issue of displacement, horsepower, and CG height, a bit bigger issue of torque, and of course the absurd physical size thing that make working on it a nightmare. And there is a small selection of (extremely expensive) parts to help tweak some of those drawbacks a little bit. But newer is better.

Of course, if you have a Chevy, newer gets you the data, the displacement, the horsepower and the torque, without the drawbacks of size and CG. And a much bigger selection of parts to get to where you want. Too bad putting a Chevy in a Ford is an abomination that can never be allowed to exist (except for pretty much everywhere, outside of AI).

Richard P.

I have a hard time believing a small block ford can't make the power? Surely there are a decent set of heads/cam available? Doesn't Frank have a 347 that makes the power? The Ford 5.0 was the most hot rodded platform of the last 25 years so I just don't get that there isn't an option other than putting in a chevy?

[Fbody383]

The Ford 5.0 was the most hot rodded platform of the last 25 years so I just don't get that there isn't a durable, relatively inexpensive, and available option other than putting in a chevy?Fixed it for you.

[mach1]

So I can put a standalone system on my fox now?

[Fbody383]

So I can put a standalone system on my fox now?Yes; in AI. Hate to see you go... thanks for the help this weekend.

[mach1]

Yes; in AI. Hate to see you go... thanks for the help this weekend.

LOL, my pleasure.

[Pranav]

Y'all want to rabble on about how much of perceived disadvantage your engine combination has, start your own damn thread.

This thread is about a motor that makes the best numbers for the class but has constant problems.

[Fbody383]

This thread is about a motor that makes the best numbers for the class but has constant problems.Ok, went through the thread again.

I have some similar oil pressure issues - hit the front straight at TWS and lifted for a beat to get the oil pressure up off 0-ish on the gauge.

Is there a vacuum leak or something else, a soft issue, that's just hard to find? What oil are you running - I missed it if it's in this thread.

I still have the motor that siezed at TWS a couple of years ago i need to crack open and see how blue the internals are.

May be redundant: http://www.ls1lt1.com/forum/lt1-%7C-lt4-%7C-l99-engine-tech/49119-long-term-fuel-trims.html

Tried a different PCM?

[Supercharged111]

Mine weren't discolored at all, totally blew my mind. I've got my win video up on Youtube and you can watch the oil pressure gauge drop off the face of the earth with the big red light blaring at me to stop but I wasn't letting go of 1st that easily. Or cheaply. The cause? It was twofold. I lost a bunch of oil out of the water pump drive seal that walked out of the timing cover. Then, I tore my engine down, and found my oil pickup tube installed hanging an inch plus off the bottom of the pan and it was glued onto the pump. I twisted it off by hand, mine was a ticking time bomb since day 1.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/supercharged111/Camaro/Oil%20Pickup%20Tube_zpsmcg8mzgs.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/supercharged111/media/Camaro/Oil%20Pickup%20Tube_zpsmcg8mzgs.jpg.html)

Same pickup set at ~3/8" off the bottom of the pan. Gotta get a new one though, there's some bearing trash in there that I can't get out. Gonna get that bitch welded on.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/supercharged111/Camaro/IMG_20150427_215101_894_zps1tax9bwt.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/supercharged111/media/Camaro/IMG_20150427_215101_894_zps1tax9bwt.jpg.html)

[dtanker65]

This thread is about a motor that makes the best numbers for the class but has constant problems.[/QUOTE]

How did Sean's 5.3 stack up against the LT1? It looked like a very well engineered installation.

[mach1]

How did Sean's 5.3 stack up against the LT1? It looked like a very well engineered installation.
Agreed, nice work Sean!

[Al Fernandez]

Y'all want to rabble on about how much of perceived disadvantage your engine combination has, start your own damn thread.
lol way to take control!

[Pranav]

Hooked the laptop up, saw I'm getting an erratic reading from the driver's o2. Swapped o2s side to side, got the same reading on that side. Lifted injector rail and saw all 8 are spraying a good pattern, then swapped them side to side. Still got the same erratic reading from that side. Checked for vacuum leak and spark on all 4 plugs on that side. What else?

[Casey_SS]

Hooked the laptop up, saw I'm getting an erratic reading from the driver's o2. Swapped o2s side to side, got the same reading on that side. Lifted injector rail and saw all 8 are spraying a good pattern, then swapped them side to side. Still got the same erratic reading from that side. Checked for vacuum leak and spark on all 4 plugs on that side. What else?

Exhaust leak?

[Fbody383]

Still got the same erratic reading from that side.Intermittent short? Part of the O2 harness got hot and you have an electrical issue upstream from the sensor?

[dtanker65]

Hooked the laptop up, saw I'm getting an erratic reading from the driver's o2. Swapped o2s side to side, got the same reading on that side. Lifted injector rail and saw all 8 are spraying a good pattern, then swapped them side to side. Still got the same erratic reading from that side. Checked for vacuum leak and spark on all 4 plugs on that side. What else?

Cross connect the O2 harness with jumpers to see if the problem is in the wiring or cylinder bank.

[Pranav]

Did a million electrical checks until I was blue in the face.

Then I took some rags, stuffed and taped them into the tailpipe and started it up.

Immediately the O2 sensor readings for the offending side were back to the normal/expected sinusoidal curve, and it started going deep into the negative fuel trims to take back the huge positive long term fuel trim it built up over time.

I went ahead and flipped the master switch and let it sit for a while to get the comptuer to reset and started it; the normal O2 sensor curve remained and the fuel trims where building up close to 0 like normal.

I could hear a chattering from the driver's side manifold while this was all going on, but couldn't pin point it. I ran some seafoam thru a vacuum line in hopes of producing smoke, but only got my eyes to burn when my face was on the driver's side of the engine bay.

Definite manifold gasket leak or (likely) cracked manifold.

Now that I remember, I always had a slightly odd/off fuel trim on the driver's side across multiple engines, but it always stayed within 5% until this past weekend. Pulling the exhaust manifold off and busting off the heatshield if I don't see obvious burn marks on the gasket.

[Trublu]

You should be a contributing writer to HP Books. I can see it now.....Indian Stig's Lament on Lesser Known GM Gremlins

[dtanker65]

You should be a contributing writer to HP Books. I can see it now.....Indian Stig's Lament on Lesser Known GM Gremlins

Thanks mate, just what I needed today :-) Is putting two off on the way to work normal, or do I need to seek help?

[Trublu]

Thanks mate, just what I needed today :-) Is putting two off on the way to work normal, or do I need to seek help?

Fairly normal I'd have thought grasshopper

[Pranav]

Got the exhaust manifold off and found:

1. Burnt flange to y pipe gasket (again), but this is a little downstream of (after) the O2 sensor; would that affect it?
2. A little bit of burning on the #7 exhaust port, first time seeing this.
3. The #7 plug fouled a lot more than the other three plugs on that side. Again first time seeing this.

#1 I've always had an issue with, as the y pipe was made by some dumbasses at an exhaust shop in college station before being fixed down here in Houston. Upon closer inspection I am seeing the pipe poke thru the flange just a little bit, so I guess when I clamp the factory manifold down on it, it is not sealing right as that little bit of pipe is pushing up on the manifold. A careful application of a grinder should fix this, hopefully...

#2, first time I've seen this, I'll just clean/strip the manifold surface carefully and re-install, make sure bolts are torqued immediately after first heat cycle, as I think I may have skipped this bolt last time.

#3, would having an exhaust leak right at this port cause some kind of exhaust scavenging issue or something that would cause the plug to foul more at idle than the other three plugs on this bank?

I filled the manifold up with water, nothing is leaking, not sure if the manifold is cracked but with gaskets being cheap it would be good to re-try it before sourcing a replacement. Didn't take me too long to pull it...

Out of the 3 above issues, #1 has been re-occuring with my last few builds so I custom made an extra thick gasket with this build with no improvement on this latest installment. Would a y-pipe flange leak downstream of the o2 sensor still somehow impact the o2 sensor reading?

[Pranav]

Actually, on 2nd thought, are our computers "smart" enough to alternate enriching one injector at a time on each bank until it finds its happy spot?

If so, this could explain that, with a burned #7 port gasket being the potential, primary reason why the o2 couldn't get a solid reading, I would have a mega-fouled #7 plug; I guess with the limited info I have on hand, I have no way of telling if the PCM, through some sort of alternating logic, deduced that the #7 injector needed most of the additional 20% fuel for the bank. My software is only setup to read the standard OBD2 stuff, not the GM specific PIDs that would tell me injector duty cycle and such...

[Supercharged111]

If 1 cylinder goes lean, it throws the whole bank off and the other 3 end up running rich as the PCM dumps more fuel at the whole bank. Back in the day of TBI, they used 1 O2 sensor for the whole motor (at least they did on the trucks). Some of the high end standalones support 1 WBO2 per cylinder, that'd suck to have to tune. Can you somehow plane that manifold? I know mine are sort of curled at the ends, so it seems just machining it flat is out.

[dtanker65]

I have had good results building headers by sticking 3M self-adhesive long board sanding paper to a straight poplar board from Home Depot to hand face the flange mating surface using a figure 8 pattern, but if the iron manifold isn't true, I'd sh*t can it. Throw a straight edge across the ports on the head and check it with a flashlight while it is apart as well for piece of mind.

[Pranav]

Well my attempt at fixing this made it worse.

"Cleaned up" the exhaust manifold ports and flange, then hit the y pipe flange with a grinder to fit that pipe protrusion, between the two there is now a helacious flange leak I can feel with my hand. This leak is 1" downstream of the o2 but I guess bad enough to cause the o2 to read funny. The manifold ports felt fine. Never was able to prove whether or not my manifold is cracked.

Going to start over with a fresh manifold, and drop the entire exhaust out of the car to get the y pipe flange trued up on a belt sander.

[Pranav]

Picked up a junkyard manifold, went through hell extracting the broken flange studs it came with, then gave it a good de-rusting electrolysis bath before painting it.

Swapped the manifold, then bit the bullet and had the muffler shop cut off and weld on a new y pipe flange after checking it with a straight edge showed it was too distorted to save.

Exhaust sealed up nicely, O2 sensor readings and fuel trims were back to normal. Made a quick trip to the dyno down the road since I also wanted to make sure my clutch fix and output shaft bushing job were good, everything was nice and smooth.

Hoping to go to TWS this Friday for some seat time...

[Pranav]

wrong thread