Too Much Torque, Now What?

[Supercharged111]

Stupid car refuses to let me off with just 1 dyno per season. This time it's just too damn hot. I started with a 5 minute cruise on the dyno, then made 3 unrestricted pulls just for funsies. It ripped off 292whp and 329wtq with a properly flat torque curve. I was pumped, holy hot damn this motor rips and I inadvertently kick ass at building motors too! :lol: I then proceed to install last year's plate (38mm) and ripped off 270whp, then 272 just to make sure it wasn't a fluke. Whoops. So I toss in my smallest plate, a 36mm, and made 262whp. Sweet, I can deal with that amount of ballast. Oh by the way, what was the torque on that pull (I've always been short on torque)? 322 you say? FML. As I investigated further, I see I dropped all of 7 ft/lb via restrictor plate (because it peaks at 2000 RPM) so clearly plating down will not quell the torque and hp is already where I want it. I have a dual 2.5"-3" single aftermarket y-pipe installed. What impact will a factory y-pipe have? I need to lose 12 ft/lb and, preferrably, enough hp to not necessitate a CMC 1 restrictor plate. How many of you LT1 guys are running bigger y-pipes and not busting the torque? My car has always pulled happily to the rev limit, but I know Ryan Rahjes' Camaro nosed off hard after peak and I've always suspected the factory y-pipe to be the cause. On the other hand, I can't race period the way it sits now. I rebuilt it last year in the garage with a 3 stone hone, factory never-been-blowed-up pistons, rods, and crank (which I had polished). I used name brand rings, main and rod bearings and a Felpro gasket kit which, as I recall, includes a .038" head gasket with the factory being close to .030" so nowhere in that process should I have gained an unreasonable amount of torque. It's as if the motor broke in a second time, I figured it'd pooch out gradually but apparently I don't suck as bad as I thought at rebuilding motors. In light of this, I'm going to press again this season for the RCR for dyno pulls to start at 3000 RPM. My torque had dropped to 315 by then and would be raceable in the RPM range we actually operate in. Here's the sheet from today, the 3 pulls represent unrestricted, 38mm plate, and 36mm plate.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/supercharged111/Camaro/2016%20Dyno%201_zpsxqyuv0of.png (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/supercharged111/media/Camaro/2016%20Dyno%201_zpsxqyuv0of.png.html)

[Pranav]

I slipped up on contributing to the RCR for the 3k starting point last year, but I have stacks and stacks of dyno charts showing my 3 built LT1s making "peak" torque just off 2k RPMs when the real measurent past 3k is 10ft lbs lower. My only motor that didn't make peak torque below 3k RPMs was my first, used motor that had bad compression on one or more cylinders from the start; that motor was just below both HP/tq limits with zero restrictor. I will scan them all and submit them with you.

My only advise is to try again on a different dyno, maybe try starting in the colder end of the temp range and keep pulling to see if it goes up or down from there.

I had the same problem you had on a not so humid day; had to shove in a 36mm plate to barely make the numbers, a few months later on a different dyno I am way low on HP/tq after feeling like everyone was pulling in me big time, and found it really needed a 42mm. Two dynos later I'm still on that 42mm plate.

[Pranav]

Also running pulls without a plate is a waste of time and a good way to start stripping out your TB bolt holes on the intake.

Just warm it up and get your three pulls on the same plate you have run previously, or what you think will get you the correct numbers next time.

[Supercharged111]

Also running pulls without a plate is a waste of time and a good way to start stripping out your TB bolt holes on the intake.

Just warm it up and get your three pulls on the same plate you have run previously, or what you think will get you the correct numbers next time.

LOL, as you type that I was considering a stud swap into my intake. I've been all over the place with this thing, from unrestricted and short on torque to now what seems like a damn cheater motor. Every season that TB comes on and off multiple times, but last year it made as much with a 44mm plate as it did unrestricted and this year the damn thing is straight up breathing fire. Like I told the guy running the shop, my car LOVES the dyno. My current train of thought is to slap in a stock y pipe I just acquired and ditch the underdrive crank pulley. Between that and the scant few lb/ft a restictor drops, I can probably be legal again. Best case scenario though, I'm toying with the thought of dual exhaust minus an x/h pipe. Maybe I'd be dollars ahead to buy and install a Dynojet in my house?

[GlennCMC70]

Changing valve lash will help some. I forget which way make the torque go up or down. I've done it and it works.

I have asked for the rpm start change since I have been in CMC ('05). As a former director I will tell you that data is king. You must bring it.

[Supercharged111]

I'm bringing a thumb drive to the dyno next time, forgot to this time. I'll have all the data they can stand to look at. Any idea how much torque I can lose by going back to a stock y pipe?

[AllZWay]

I have heard that putting washers under the spark plug will help, but I have never tried and don't know anyone that has proven this theory.

[Rob Liebbe]

I have heard that putting washers under the spark plug will help, but I have never tried and don't know anyone that has proven this theory.

Putting a flip switch on the number 8 spark plug wire should do it. Activate above 1200 rpm and nobody would be the wiser.

[BryanL]

Hmm-last LT1 dyno I saw was pretty perfect numbers. I also have a spreadsheet from an LT1 dyno and it made more power at 3,000 than 2,000. Of course the LT1 makes more hp and tq than the LS1, and the 5.3 on the spreadsheet I have across the board. I'm sure the Fords I see making 280 tq are saying cry me a river.

It will be pretty disappointing to change the rules when so many others have made the numbers only to try and give a particular motor the "perfect number". What about my little LS1 that only makes 292 tq? It requires such a small plate to knock down the hp that it kills the torque-it's just part of it. So it's kind of tough to see complaints when a motor is over on both tq and hp. If the rules are changed then they should allow tuning so I can get a perfect number with my car.

I think Glenn is correct on the lash and exhaust can have an impact. I believe you would want a bigger exhaust to cut down torque and the byproduct is likely going to be more hp. Yeah I don't see the need for the pulley when you are over now.

[ShadowBolt]

All the tuning in the world will not get a stock 4.6 (281 cu. in.) to 260/310. Unlike other engines the 4.6 two valve does not gain much unless you make other changes. There are a few cars that pull the 55 (the 39 did at MSRH but not all that bad and I think he is right on the numbers) but I think we are as close as we have ever been. I have the last four years dyno graphs and I think Kevin and Michael do also. I have no issue is you all want to put them all on one graph and see what we have. Kevin's 4.6 without long tubes makes more torque but less HP. The best we have ever pulled in the 55 is 259/298 and I don't feel at a disadvantage. This year we only pulled 255/289 but the car still felt strong.

JJ

[Supercharged111]

You can't win a race with 250hp, but you can win a race with 300tq. I'd rather be under than over on torque. I don't see how the rule change proposed would favor an LT1 the least little bit. The car came with the underdrive and I hate to take it off because I'm sure it helps the alternator and PS pump to live longer. On the other hand, it's free and easy to do. Car needed a belt anyway.

[mach1]

All the tuning in the world will not get a stock 4.6 (281 cu. in.) to 260/310. Unlike other engines the 4.6 two valve does not gain much unless you make other changes. There are a few cars that pull the 55 (the 39 did at MSRH but not all that bad and I think he is right on the numbers) but I think we are as close as we have ever been. I have the last four years dyno graphs and I think Kevin and Michael do also. I have no issue is you all want to put them all on one graph and see what we have. Kevin's 4.6 without long tubes makes more torque but less HP. The best we have ever pulled in the 55 is 259/298 and I don't feel at a disadvantage. This year we only pulled 255/289 but the car still felt strong.

JJ

How do you guys get to 260, I was searching all over the interwebs and the most HP with all of the 2v boltons seemed to be mid 240's, do you have to bump compression?

[Storm Trooper]

Hmm-last LT1 dyno I saw was pretty perfect numbers. I also have a spreadsheet from an LT1 dyno and it made more power at 3,000 than 2,000. Of course the LT1 makes more hp and tq than the LS1, and the 5.3 on the spreadsheet I have across the board. I'm sure the Fords I see making 280 tq are saying cry me a river.

It will be pretty disappointing to change the rules when so many others have made the numbers only to try and give a particular motor the "perfect number". What about my little LS1 that only makes 292 tq? It requires such a small plate to knock down the hp that it kills the torque-it's just part of it. So it's kind of tough to see complaints when a motor is over on both tq and hp. If the rules are changed then they should allow tuning so I can get a perfect number with my car.

I think Glenn is correct on the lash and exhaust can have an impact. I believe you would want a bigger exhaust to cut down torque and the byproduct is likely going to be more hp. Yeah I don't see the need for the pulley when you are over now.

Well I think the 5.3 L is as close to perfect as you can get. :-)
1629

[ShadowBolt]

How do you guys get to 260, I was searching all over the interwebs and the most HP with all of the 2v boltons seemed to be mid 240's, do you have to bump compression?

My car has long tubes and a timing adjuster. Changing the timing from stock 10 to 14 brings the power up. That is why I say the tune will not do much if anything. Timing has already been changed. The timing adjuster gave me 6 HP and 15 Tq.

http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/0205mmff-boltons/

JJ

[Supercharged111]

My car has long tubes and a timing adjuster. Changing the timing from stock 10 to 14 brings the power up. That is why I say the tune will not do much if anything. Timing has already been changed. The timing adjuster gave me 6 HP and 15 Tq.

http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/0205mmff-boltons/

JJ

What if you mixed in some race gas and tried more timing?

[ShadowBolt]

What if you mixed in some race gas and tried more timing?

Not worth it. I just need to make sure I get 93 every time.

JJ

[Supercharged111]

As much as that Steeda timing adjust helped you, the MSD opti would help me as well. Bolt on and go. Sometimes I wish our rules were more lax. Or that I sucked more at building motors.

[Suck fumes]

If you want tq out of the 4.6 you need higher compression. Race gas boosts power a good chunk too. Just gets expensive.

[Supercharged111]

Seems to me it's a drop in the bucket when you factor in registration fees, tow pig gas, and maintenance/upkeep. I can say if I were short on power, I wouldn't hesitate to try it. Never been on this side of the fence before.

[blk96gt]

The most my 4.6 ever made was 267/308. That was with a stock 96 short block (-11cc dish pistons) with PI heads/intake and stock manifolds. That motor also only lasted 2 weekends before I started popping ringlands.

Current motor makes 254/302 with what is basically an 01-04 short block (-16cc dish pistons). For reference, here were the piston's that came in the 96-04 4.6's:
- 96 to 98 - 11cc dish
- 99 to 01 - 17.5cc
- 01 to 04 - 16cc

You'll make the most power with a 96-98 short block, but you'll pop the motor pretty quick unless you run race gas.

[Fbody383]

Also, take a look at how much I get pulled on the straight by the Orange is fast car. How did I get dragged into this - obviously I had better corner exit speed, a good draft, and maybe gearing working. Too bad the mustangs are lighter and corner better...

Back to Supercharged's issue - too much power for CMC - AI it is I guess.

Maybe the combo of underdrive and y-pipe? I run the stock exhaust - factory y-pipe through a gutted cat and just dumped behind the axle. 39mm plate (of course) and was 262/309. On a motor we boiled dry at Houston Jan15.

Maybe get Sean to chime in about where he picked up his exhaust restrictors.

[mach1]

How did I get dragged into this - obviously I had better corner exit speed, a good draft, and maybe gearing. Back to Supercharged's issue - too much power for CMC - AI it is I guess.

It's that 320ftlb cheater lt1 ya got, I could tell you were shifting at 3000rpm to stay in peak tq!

[Fbody383]

It's that 320ftlb cheater lt1 ya got, I could tell you were shifting at 3000rpm to stay in peak tq! Yeah, I watched a little video last night of the 013 pulling the world WITH the big drag wing.

[mach1]

Yeah, I watched a little video last night of the 013 pulling the world WITH the big drag wing.

At MSRH? Man my car sure seemed weak, I was getting pulled by everyone I felt like, wing should be pretty low drag, damn thing is tilted up in the middle.

[michaelmosty]

At MSRH? Man my car sure seemed weak, I was getting pulled by everyone I felt like, wing should be pretty low drag, damn thing is tilted up in the middle.

I don't know about the drag but it sure does look pImP!!!!

[Supercharged111]

How did I get dragged into this - obviously I had better corner exit speed, a good draft, and maybe gearing working. Too bad the mustangs are lighter and corner better...

Back to Supercharged's issue - too much power for CMC - AI it is I guess.

Maybe the combo of underdrive and y-pipe? I run the stock exhaust - factory y-pipe through a gutted cat and just dumped behind the axle. 39mm plate (of course) and was 262/309. On a motor we boiled dry at Houston Jan15.

Maybe get Sean to chime in about where he picked up his exhaust restrictors.

Can you post an image of one of your dynos? I want to see if yours falls off before the rev limit. Mine doesn't, and I suspect it's because of the aftermarket y. Kinda surprised nobody has before/after numbers to quantify the difference here. I know Ryan went back and forth, but I don't know how much of a difference it made for him. Per the google, the pulley ought to be worth 5ft/lb at the wheels or more. Mine's pretty aggressive.

[mach1]

I don't know about the drag but it sure does look pImP!!!!

Everyone is jealous because I have the nicest, cleanest, flyist racecar! :mad:

[ShadowBolt]

Yes my car has 10.5:1 compression ratio and what I assume was 87 octane fuel bent six or seven intake valves. If I was going to do it all over I would go to 9.5:1. I would lose some power but the engine would never have screwed up with the lower octane fuel. I'm way to tight to run $9.90 per gal. race fuel.


JJ

[blk96gt]

IMO you shouldn't have to run race fuel to make the power.

[ShadowBolt]

IMO you shouldn't have to run race fuel to make the power.

I agree.

[Supercharged111]

IMO you shouldn't have to run race fuel to make the power.

I agree too, but there aren't many options. Besides, I was suggesting mixing it and not running straight race gas.

[BryanL]

As much as that Steeda timing adjust helped you, the MSD opti would help me as well. Bolt on and go. Sometimes I wish our rules were more lax. Or that I sucked more at building motors.

How would the MSD opti help you make more or less power?

[Supercharged111]

How would the MSD opti help you make more or less power?

It allows you to tweak the base timing by +/- 6 degrees like the cheater Fords do with the Steeda part.

[BryanL]

It allows you to tweak the base timing by +/- 6 degrees like the cheater Fords do with the Steeda part.

OK, good info. to know and I sure hope it never becomes legal which I doubt. The 4.6 needs it to try and get up to the numbers just like the 5.0 or TPI needing parts to get up to the numbers. Since the LT1 and LS1 have no trouble being over it certainly isn't needed.

OH-and you can certainly win races with 250 hp or races and championships with I think 283 or 288 tq like Mosty does. Especially at Hallett.

[Fbody383]

Can you post an image of one of your dynos? I can, and/or email you the dyno file. This is one of the better graphs the motor has ever put up.

[ShadowBolt]

I can, and/or email you the dyno file. This is one of the better graphs the motor has ever put up.

If I remember someone had the Cresson lap record in CMC for a few years and he was driving a 230/300 CMC1 car.

JJ

[Supercharged111]

OK, good info. to know and I sure hope it never becomes legal which I doubt. The 4.6 needs it to try and get up to the numbers just like the 5.0 or TPI needing parts to get up to the numbers. Since the LT1 and LS1 have no trouble being over it certainly isn't needed.

OH-and you can certainly win races with 250 hp or races and championships with I think 283 or 288 tq like Mosty does. Especially at Hallett.

250hp carrying an extra 200# because your torque is still high? I ran with ~287ft/lb in 2014 and it didn't seem to hurt me, but my hp was 260 and I didn't have to carry ballast around. With the Fords being so light, I feel it's easier for them to scrape by being low on torque but again, this is where data is king and all I have is a dyno graph.

[Fbody383]

http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac66/Fbody383/CMC39%202016%20Dyno%20Jan16_zpsxeo4h30g.jpg

Failing at inserting image directly into the post. The 55 probably shouldn't look at this... and those scales were RIGHT.

Of course I spent a lot of time chasing all the mustangs... gotta get that pig to turn.

[Supercharged111]

I can't see that on Chrome, Firefox, or my phone.

[Fbody383]

I can't see that on Chrome, Firefox, or my phone. Me either today. Plan B in effect... hold pls.

[mach1]

Me either today. Plan B in effect... hold pls.

If your dyno started at 2k is would probably be over too
Do you have the .drf dyno file for those runs?

[Fbody383]

If your dyno started at 2k is would probably be over too Another reason to wire up the tach signal to the Traqmate

[BryanL]

250hp carrying an extra 200# because your torque is still high? I ran with ~287ft/lb in 2014 and it didn't seem to hurt me, but my hp was 260 and I didn't have to carry ballast around. With the Fords being so light, I feel it's easier for them to scrape by being low on torque but again, this is where data is king and all I have is a dyno graph.

Rules don't work that way. Even at the max limit of torque it's only 100 pounds of weight instead of 200. This is good stuff as I'm looking at 9 different dyno runs from an LT1 and every run it made more torque at 3k than at 2k. Torque generally peaked at 3,300 when running legal numbers yet peaked at 4,400 when running hp numbers way over legal. So there is plenty of data out there on cars making the number. I certainly don't know all their setups with regards to underdrive pulleys, exhaust systems,valve lash, etc. So certainly the directors will ask that you test some other variables before considering a rule change.

However, if you get the rules changed that gets me excited. Reason being that I'm also looking at the tq numbers for another LS1 which peaks before 3k as well. So I know some things that I could do to get my torque numbers above the max yet still be under by 3k. I may have also incorrectly stated earlier that the LT1 had better numbers across the board than the LS1 spreadsheets I have as I was only looking above 3k. Below 3k the LS beats the LT by 3-6 tq. Again this data is only from two cars so it can only be taken with a grain of salt.

Dave I can't see your graph either. I'll see if I can get some graphs posted up next week as well.

[mach1]

dynojet drf files are king if you can host in google drive or something along those lines, then you can load them in winpep and overlay them very easily
if someone wants to share their drf files I will load them up and overlay with mine for an example.

[Fbody383]

Dave I can't see your graph either. I'll see if I can get some graphs posted up next week as well. Now?

[mach1]

Now?

Such a nice looking dyno, my peak numbers are 260/306, you make more power everywhere except the 4-5000rpm area.

3000
you 175
me 153

3500
you 205
me 193

4000
you 233
me 233

4500
you 250
me 250

5000
you 260
me 260

5500
you 257
me 252

5850
you 245
me 235

[Fbody383]

...you make more power everywhere but can't put down the power or corner in your silly-fat 4th gen. Long live the fox! Dude, lighten up... :)

[mach1]

Dude, lighten up... :)

LOL, I'm just jealous, quadrabind4life :)

[Supercharged111]

Rules don't work that way. Even at the max limit of torque it's only 100 pounds of weight instead of 200. This is good stuff as I'm looking at 9 different dyno runs from an LT1 and every run it made more torque at 3k than at 2k. Torque generally peaked at 3,300 when running legal numbers yet peaked at 4,400 when running hp numbers way over legal. So there is plenty of data out there on cars making the number. I certainly don't know all their setups with regards to underdrive pulleys, exhaust systems,valve lash, etc. So certainly the directors will ask that you test some other variables before considering a rule change.

However, if you get the rules changed that gets me excited. Reason being that I'm also looking at the tq numbers for another LS1 which peaks before 3k as well. So I know some things that I could do to get my torque numbers above the max yet still be under by 3k. I may have also incorrectly stated earlier that the LT1 had better numbers across the board than the LS1 spreadsheets I have as I was only looking above 3k. Below 3k the LS beats the LT by 3-6 tq. Again this data is only from two cars so it can only be taken with a grain of salt.

Dave I can't see your graph either. I'll see if I can get some graphs posted up next week as well.

Derr, I was remembering the number maxxing out both hp and torque. I'll have overlays for stock vs aftermarket y pipe after my next trip to the dyno. Can you post up an LS1 shot? Also, any data you guys can provide will help this as well. I'm kind of Trackmate retarded when it comes to that stuff, but I do plan on capturing some this year and I bet Dave B would give me a down and dirty on how to interpret it. I really don't see the point in penalizing us for torque at a non-competitive engine speed unless they're doing it because the Fords come up short? Remember I'm kind of short-sighted WRT CMC when it comes to this stuff.


dynojet drf files are king if you can host in google drive or something along those lines, then you can load them in winpep and overlay them very easily
if someone wants to share their drf files I will load them up and overlay with mine for an example.

I have a Lougle Drive, would you guys be able to access it? Let's make sure Michael is a part of this too, don't want to step on his toes.

[Pranav]

Given that my driving is still in a "developmental" state, I feel a bit out of place commenting on this further. However, I've done a million dynos thanks to the motor issues and have observed how these motors fluctuate their peak torque numbers under various conditions. I will dig up all of my dynos and share. I'll try hit up cardoc and pull up all of the dynos that any CMC car has run there.

Dave, your older motor shows the problem perfectly. Compare a dyno between an "aged" LT1 vs a freshly built one. The fresh motor will have that "fake" torque spike below 3k RPMs, while an older one will peak above 3k all day. My first motor with one or more bad rings ran zero plate, made just below the 260/310, and didn't have a torque spike below 3k. All three of my built motors have peaked torque below 3k RPMs and have had to plate around 42-43mm.

This year I'm randomly running 313ft lbs vs 310 below 3k, in the same 42mm plate from last year and had to add ballast over the 3250 min (I don't have any plates smaller than 42mm). I now have to run a bunch more weight on top of the 30lb penalty just to make sure I don't have a problem dynoing higher than 313ft lbs when asked to do so.

If I take a line across the chart of my 2016 and 2015 dyno, you'll see it will be decently below 310 at the 3k mark for both.

So why is this such a huge deal? It's not the fact that we're down a few ft-lbs. It's the fact that on occasion, a number of the LT1 guys have fallen prey to the occasional crappy dyno (lol MSRH) and have had to run way too much plate and/or ballast up to stay legal, despite all of those same charts showing they were safely at/below the 310/260 mark above 3k RPMs. Once we are expected to run penalty weight for going over the power numbers, we have to add even more weight to allow for the risk of dynoing higher than the original cert if asked to do so during the season.

Remember, weight penalizes a car not only under acceleration, but also under braking and turning. Yes the 4th gens have to run more weight to compensate for a better everything, but running significant penalty weight for extra output exclusively over an unusable power band range doesn't seem right.

If you're running below 3k RPMs on track, like Glenn said elsewhere, you'll get your ass handed to you.

[Pranav]

I took a crappy picture of my 2016 dyno before handing it off, as it was my only copy. Here it is attached.
1632

[BryanL]

LS1 put down 259/289 at LG Motorsports. Peak tq looks like 2600 and hp at 5,300. I'll see if I can get the drf files. I forgot my zip drive and they didn't have it hooked up to email me.

[Supercharged111]

Seems your LS1's artificially low torque peak is also caused by getting so much power choked out via restrictor plate. You didn't happen to get an unrestricted pull in did you?