Interesting Ram Air

[liquidroam]

With an LT1 I would struggle to do anything like this but it got me thinking. What is stance on strategic trimming like in the attachment? It would work even with the OE ram air blocked off.

http://installuniversity.com/install_university/installu_pages/freshman_year/free_ram_air_mod.htm

[Supercharged111]

My stance is it ought to be legal. I know some would be opposed to it, so maybe try it and provide before/after MAP logs to prove MAP does not exceed atmospheric. Since the factory inlet is also left open this is really just a cold air intake in all reality.

[liquidroam]

My stance is it ought to be legal. I know some would be opposed to it, so maybe try it and provide before/after MAP logs to prove MAP does not exceed atmospheric. Since the factory inlet is also left open this is really just a cold air intake in all reality.

My assumption is that there is no way it is legal but I am curious. Does anyone have experience with this?

[Supercharged111]

Well it's not legal for an LT1 because it puts the filter in a non-stock location, the argument then mounts for the LS1.

[BryanL]

Well it's not legal for an LT1 because it puts the filter in a non-stock location, the argument then mounts for the LS1.

LEGAL! You can move the air filter wherever you want as long as it still resides in the engine compartment or in a factory location. And you can do whatever you want with the filter setup like removing headlight covers, drilling holes everywhere as long as it doesn't create a ram air. Can't really argue it wouldn't be legal for an LT1 since it's a factory setup for the LS1 and you are allowed to update/backdate within 93-02.

*I hate the allowed chopping/cutting/drilling/removal of headlight covers to allow a straight shot of air hitting the filter that

[mach1]

I have done this on several LS street cars and it absolutely helps on the top end, Paul you need to buy a LS airbox ASAP and retrofit to your car.

[Supercharged111]

LEGAL! You can move the air filter wherever you want as long as it still resides in the engine compartment or in a factory location. And you can do whatever you want with the filter setup like removing headlight covers, drilling holes everywhere as long as it doesn't create a ram air. Can't really argue it wouldn't be legal for an LT1 since it's a factory setup for the LS1 and you are allowed to update/backdate within 93-02.

*I hate the allowed chopping/cutting/drilling/removal of headlight covers to allow a straight shot of air hitting the filter that

I'm hung up on the definition of in the engine bay, since the LS1 box draws from in front of the core support. Why are you against chopping stuff to slam an air filter with cold air? You need a sealed enclosure that far exceeds what GM offered to provide a ram air effect that exceeds atmospheric. At best, most ram air setups merely stave off the pressure drop a little longer, but even that becomes difficult to differentiate between a free flowing cold air setup. I feel our rules fall short in that respect. We really should objectively define criteria for determining what does and does not make a ram air setup instead of letting our subjective eyeballs decide that something appears to be a ram air setup.

[BryanL]

Where are we allowed to chop stuff to slam an air filter with cold air??
I'm against it for two reasons. Removing a headlight/cover and putting a filter right behind it basically is a ram air setup it just isn't sealed. Same thing as the rear wings I don't think we should alter the body parts of the car and remove or cut holes/screens for this. We aren't allowed to blindly cut holes to make an area like a cheese grater all over the car but that's what some cars have done so why is that legal?

Well 6.9.2 All other OEM light assemblies may be replaced with facsimiles, plates, covers, or mesh covered cooling duct openings as long as these maintain the stock external appearance.
*I don't think that putting a mesh metal grate in place of a headlight cover is stock external appearance. If it's an actual sealed air duct with a mesh screen that goes to cool say your brakes then that is similar to whats allowed in 6.5.2.
But some people or possibly even directors aren't modifying their headlight for a duct. They are modifying it to allow cold air to enter where they have their air filter. Yes-that's an invitation for Michael Mosty to provide input.

Again-for the LT1 see 6.3. You are allowed to update/backdate. So if an LS car wants to run a LT air intake setup that is allowed or vice versa.

[michaelmosty]

Where are we allowed to chop stuff to slam an air filter with cold air??
I'm against it for two reasons. Removing a headlight/cover and putting a filter right behind it basically is a ram air setup it just isn't sealed. Same thing as the rear wings I don't think we should alter the body parts of the car and remove or cut holes/screens for this. We aren't allowed to blindly cut holes to make an area like a cheese grater all over the car but that's what some cars have done so why is that legal?

Well 6.9.2 All other OEM light assemblies may be replaced with facsimiles, plates, covers, or mesh covered cooling duct openings as long as these maintain the stock external appearance.
*I don't think that putting a mesh metal grate in place of a headlight cover is stock external appearance. If it's an actual sealed air duct with a mesh screen that goes to cool say your brakes then that is similar to whats allowed in 6.5.2.
But some people or possibly even directors aren't modifying their headlight for a duct. They are modifying it to allow cold air to enter where they have their air filter. Yes-that's an invitation for Michael Mosty to provide input.

Again-for the LT1 see 6.3. You are allowed to update/backdate. So if an LS car wants to run a LT air intake setup that is allowed or vice versa.

I think the rule is silly and should not be allowed. I proposed it be deemed illegal (long before I was the TX director) but was told the rule would stay as-is. So I took advantage of what was deemed legal.
Is that what you were looking for?

[BryanL]

Just looking for input from you as a director.
But in reading the rule it doesn't say we are allowed to cut holes in the headlight cover area and I believe some have done this but I don't know what a "plate" is in this context. So if there are holes cut shouldn't that be illegal?
Then the question is what does a "mesh covered cooling duct" exactly mean. If there isn't an actual duct going to say the brakes then shouldn't that be illegal as well? I don't think we are/or should be allowed to run a duct that then directs air to hit the air filter. Though I think I have seen this in the past.

[marshall_mosty]

Bryan,
The mesh on the headlight cover allows cooling air to enter the engine bay, cooling off critical engine components and reducing the likelihood of detonation due to high engine bay temps (since pushrod 5.0's don't have fancy knock sensors).. It essentially reduces the cost to compete in CMC...
See... easy explanation... :)

[mach1]

So if a lt1 car shows up to nats with the "free ram air" mod Paul posted, will this be legal?

[ShadowBolt]

So if a lt1 car shows up to nats with the "free ram air" mod Paul posted, will this be legal?

If Paul is driving I will not say a word. LOL


JJ

[BADVENM]

Be familiar with the CCR format to protest and have your money ready?

[BryanL]

So if a lt1 car shows up to nats with the "free ram air" mod Paul posted, will this be legal?

How could it not be legal with the update/backdate allowance?

[Al Fernandez]

CMC 6.21.5 Any air filter or air filter assembly may be fitted and OE assemblies may be modified. Air boxes and filters must reside inside the engine compartment or in the OEM stock location. Air filter installations intentionally designed to create, or that appear to create a ram air effect are not allowed, even if they were OEM stock.

Nationals or otherwise...I would suggest not putting yourself in the position of having your hard work tossed on a subjective decision. Its just not worth it.

[liquidroam]

If Paul is driving I will not say a word. LOL


JJ

Thanks buddy.....!!

[liquidroam]

CMC 6.21.5 Any air filter or air filter assembly may be fitted and OE assemblies may be modified. Air boxes and filters must reside inside the engine compartment or in the OEM stock location. Air filter installations intentionally designed to create, or that appear to create a ram air effect are not allowed, even if they were OEM stock.

Nationals or otherwise...I would suggest not putting yourself in the position of having your hard work tossed on a subjective decision. Its just not worth it.

The "appears" wording is what had me hung up. That is soooo objective that any attempt to create this affect, but play in a gray area of back dating, or arguing any data about atmospheric pressure is negated by simply saying that it appears to be creating that. This word does not require you to actually know for sure one way or the other whether it does. Simply that it "appears"

Knowing that During a protest is burden on proof on the person protesting or defending?

[BryanL]

CMC 6.21.5 Any air filter or air filter assembly may be fitted and OE assemblies may be modified. Air boxes and filters must reside inside the engine compartment or in the OEM stock location. Air filter installations intentionally designed to create, or that appear to create a ram air effect are not allowed, even if they were OEM stock.

Nationals or otherwise...I would suggest not putting yourself in the position of having your hard work tossed on a subjective decision. Its just not worth it.

Huh? The first line of the rule says OE assemblies may be modified? So is a 98-02 LS car allowed to modify the OE assembly but slotting that area? There isn't anything that seals or directs air to it like a ram air.

Why doesn't the update/backdate non body components rule apply? So are people running the LS in a 93-97 not allowed to run the OEM LS air intake setup? But they can run any air filter assembly they want as long as the filter is inside the engine compartment and doesn't create a ram air effect.

Hey Michael-I agree this is silly but I think it's beyond silly in this instance.

We have three directors on this thread and the best answer he can get is it would be a subjective decision? Can we at least get an answer to whether he can run the factory stock LS air intake setup?

Isn't this a non-body component?

6.3 Update/Backdate Non-body Components
Non-body components may be updated/backdated within cars of the same manufacturer
on the eligible manufacturers/models list (i.e. 1982-92 GM Early components may NOT
be interchanged with 1993-02 GM Late components) unless noted elsewhere in these
rules.

[Den34]

Bryan L
I am not the guy making the call at the nationals. But if we were having this discussion in the Great lakes region and I am the guy making the call, It would be illegal with this sentence alone. "Air filter installations intentionally designed to create, or that appear to create a ram air effect are not allowed, even if they were OEM stock."
You can argue update and backdate all you want but at the end of the day it still is "......intentionally designed to create, or that appear to create a ram air effect". End of story.
Hope that helps from my perspective.
See you guys in a couple days
Bob

[BryanL]

Thanks Bob-looking forward to hanging out with you and glad you are coming down (I still drive my dmax sub)

So you are saying that my stock LS air filter setup is illegal on my 1998 LS1 Camaro? And removing a headlight so that there is a clear path for air directly to an aftermarket air intake that resides in the engine compartment is legal?

Obviously I disagree that even the modified underside is creating a ram air since there is nothing that is sealed catching air and bringing it into a sealed enclosure that is ramming air into it. This is the way it has been explained to me by directors as to why removing the headlight isn't a ram air and it's only a cold air intake because there isn't a "duct" catching air from somewhere that then feeds a sealed ram air filter setup.

My understanding about the wording of the rule about not allowed, even if they were OEM stock has to do with the factory Ram Air setup that was an option and had to be plugged if you had that oem ram air on your car.

Here is an example of something that the directors dealt with when allowing the 98-02 LS car into the series that they didn't want allowed. http://www.ws6project.com/user_stor/catalog/98-02-ls1-fbody-austin-performance-super-sucker-ram-air-kit-ssra-cars-with-a-c/

[Supercharged111]

This subject is far too grey. We can easily and objectively prove whether or not this mod is legal. It's common knowledge that the LS1 airbox is restrictive, even the stock ram air boxes have larger inlets. If a ram air appearing intake has a leak, then it is NOT a ram air intake period. Again, this can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by taking before and after datalogs. IMO this is the only way to properly enforce this rule as merely blowing air in the direction of a cone air filter is again, abso-fucking-lutely NOT ram air. I say this as a director who basically runs a hot air intake. Thede if you're watching I zip tied that busted headlight cover back together and put it back on the car. :D

[BADVENM]

LOL, after a weekend of racing you did that.

[Supercharged111]

That and I relocated the ground that came loose in R4. The headlight cover was littering my trailer.

[Al Fernandez]

Bryan relax man, you're gonna have a heart attack getting all amped up over nothing. The stock LS air filter setup is legal, always has been. The SS LS air intake is not.

[BryanL]

Bryan relax man, you're gonna have a heart attack getting all amped up over nothing. The stock LS air filter setup is legal, always has been. The SS LS air intake is not.

So is the stock LS air filter setup legal for a 93-97 that is running the LS motor?

[Den34]

Bryan
I think You misunderstood me. Yes a stock LS air cleaner is legal. I am referring to the cutting out of the bottom of the stock air cleaner housing to allow forced air from the radiator ducting into the air cleaner box. That is what I refer to as illegal. The other stuff about headlight covers and such I have no comment right now. I would have to see the situation.
Bob

[Supercharged111]

Perhaps an RCR is in order where we specify that a ram air appearing intake must prove via data that it is not boosting air pressure in the intake above atmospheric. I've never logged a motor with a restrictor before, that may get interesting. I imagine it drops a bit more as it approaches redline or else the engine wouldn't make less power. It can really get messy in the case of a gutted LS1 airbox because again, they are restrictive in stock form. Even without a restrictor you are going to see a pressure drop as you approach redline. Now if gutting the box decreases that pressure drop, it won't necessarily be because of any ram air effects. The mere act of relieving a restriction in the intake tract, which is what this does, can absolutely decrease that pressure drop approaching redline. Some ram air systems do just this. They don't boost above atmospheric, they can only help with the pressure drop. A good free flowing intake that isn't bothered by packaging constraints can perform the same if it is fed cold air. So how do we as CMC define ram air? This is a loaded subject where a guy could get screwed over at nats by trying to have a cold air intake but, as long as someone has money and perceives that he is looking at a competitor's ram air setup, can have him DQd depending on how the directors perceive the intake to perform. Here's my thought: if the logged pressure drop is less at the top of 4th gear than it is at the top of 1st, you're getting some benefit of ram air. This is the only fair way to police this, and is what a racer should be doing to protect themselves before fielding such a system.

[Al Fernandez]

Wow talk about overcomplicating something that is really quite simple. The best way a racer can "protect themselves" is by not installing something that any reasonable person could construe as being able to provide increased air pressure at the intake. If you believe ram air doesn't actually work, then you have no reason to have anything other than a system that is obviously not capable of creating a ram air effect.

[Supercharged111]

Wow talk about overcomplicating something that is really quite simple. The best way a racer can "protect themselves" is by not installing something that any reasonable person could construe as being able to provide increased air pressure at the intake. If you believe ram air doesn't actually work, then you have no reason to have anything other than a system that is obviously not capable of creating a ram air effect.

It's clear that some believe blowing cold air in the direction of a cone filter could be construed as ram air. I believe cold air is within the intent of the rules and would hate to see a racer get punished over someone's perception. The airbox trick is a free mod. If one can prove it isn't making ram air, then it too falls within the intent of the rules IMO.

[blk96gt]

I've added A/C back in my car and it now blows directly onto the air filter. Is that OK?

[Sook]

Wow talk about overcomplicating something that is really quite simple.

It's clearly not that simple if we've got 30 posts on the topic. Racers are (and should) always be looking for an advantage. I've been working on my 'engine bay cooling' for the long back stretch this Sunday!

Just kidding of course...

- Josh

[Pranav]

Just watching this thread. Knocked some tire boogers out of my $7.99 Fram air filter that goes in my side-draw LT1 airbox.

RAM AIR!

[Supercharged111]

I've added A/C back in my car and it now blows directly onto the air filter. Is that OK?

Absolutely. You'll be set for the first 2 turns and after that you'll overheat and get your doors sucked off. :p Or dyno with the AC on, run with it off.

[BryanL]

Wow talk about overcomplicating something that is really quite simple. The best way a racer can "protect themselves" is by not installing something that any reasonable person could construe as being able to provide increased air pressure at the intake. If you believe ram air doesn't actually work, then you have no reason to have anything other than a system that is obviously not capable of creating a ram air effect.

Al-you lost everyone in this group when you said "reasonable person". Seems obvious that even the directors disagree on what constitutes ram air and what should be allowed/not allowed.

There isn't even an answer to whether a 93-97 car with an LS can run the factory LS air filter or if one can run the factory LS filter with an LT.

A director explained to me that unless it's a sealed system grabbing air then it's not a ram air and legal. This would include trimming the bottom of the LS tray which clearly isn't sealed.

[BryanL]

Absolutely. You'll be set for the first 2 turns and after that you'll overheat and get your doors sucked off. :p Or dyno with the AC on, run with it off.

That's why my cool suit blower is plumbed into my sealed air intake and my fan switch engages the line lock with a small amount of pressure for the rear wheels.

[RichardP]

any reasonable person could construe as being able to provide increased air pressure at the intake.

I believe that the air filter directly open to the front of the car (i.e., a 120 mph blast at the end of the COTA back straight) could provide increased air pressure. Does that settle it? Fuck, we're probably now stuck on the definition of a reasonable person. I think I'm screwed on that one...

RichardP

[Supercharged111]

Al-you lost everyone in this group when you said "reasonable person". Seems obvious that even the directors disagree on what constitutes ram air and what should be allowed/not allowed.

There isn't even an answer to whether a 93-97 car with an LS can run the factory LS air filter or if one can run the factory LS filter with an LT.

A director explained to me that unless it's a sealed system grabbing air then it's not a ram air and legal. This would include trimming the bottom of the LS tray which clearly isn't sealed.

Bear in mind for something that questionable I would require data to allow it, but if the data supports it then it is what it is. My point is that I don't like the idea that something can be deemed illegal at a glance because one person perceives it is ram air. The way the rule is written allows just that with no opportunity to objectively prove oneself one way or the other. In the case of the hacked up LS airbox, there is still a leak that flows 300whp unrestricted that, as far as I can tell, has no appreciable positive air pressure trying to force it's way in.

This LS airbox may be a bit of a 1 off. I think it's worth validating with actual data and perhaps specifying how many square inches can be removed.

[BryanL]

1. Can we get an answer on the LT cars that have swapped to the LS being able to run the factory original bottom air box?

2. Can we get an answer on the LT cars being able to run the factory original bottom air box?

Those should be an easy yes?

Then we can get into the definition of ram air and whether cutting the plastic is the same as removing the headlight and installing a duct to grab air and direct it at the open air filter. We don't use data for much more important considerations so why would we start with this? Also, I have no clue how to obtain data on my LS1 or a 5.0, 4.6 etc.

[Al Fernandez]

Not sure I understand what "bottom air box" means, but the only stock unmodified air/filter assembly I am aware of that is not legal is the LS SS one, regardless of what body the engine is updated/backdated into.

My definition has always been that if the cross section flow area that lets the air into the "duct" is larger than the cross section area of the TB and any bypasses to the TB then you have the makings for increasing pressure...so don't do that.

[Supercharged111]

Bryan in case I was unclear, having reread the rules it seems they are written in a way that would allow an LS style airbox to be run with an LT1.


6.21.5 Any air filter or air filter assembly may be fitted and OE assemblies may be modified. Air boxes and filters must reside inside the engine compartment or in the OEM stock location. Air filter installations intentionally designed to create, or that appear to create a ram air effect are not allowed, even if they were OEM stock.

I was hung up on OEM stock location, but inside the engine bay is another option.

Al, for those assemblies that appear to create a ram air effect, I think the rules ought to give the driver an opportunity to defend their creation. I like your idea of cross sectional area. I think we could say that, for those assemblies that appear to give a ram air effect, the driver can defend himself with data. It would read something like:

Air filter installations intentionally designed to create, or that appear to create a ram air effect are not allowed, even if they were OEM stock. Manifold air pressure with the intake fitted at speed may not exceed that of an open throttle body. It is the driver's responsibility to provide data upon request to defend a questionable intake. If a driver lacks the means to provide data upon request then the intake must be modified to eliminate the appearance of any ram air effects. All intake modifications must be listed under item 7 of the dyno test data and vehicle specification sheet.

[Al Fernandez]

The rules already provide a driver ample opportunity... CMC rules clearly state the competitor has the burden of proof, see CMC 7.7. Furthermore, the CCR allows any competitor to appeal any decision of any NASA official, see CCR 17.5