Serious discussion regarding contact

[CMC17]

Ok, I'm going to put this all out in the open and tell the group exactly how I feel and what going through my mind. If you don't care, stop reading now and good luck to you.

I'm going to draw a line in the sand. With the all of the talk in other regions regarding the crash and smash NASA group here in Texas, I'm getting pissed off more and more about it. Sure the other regions have their share of offs and contact, but it seems as though the focus is on Texas and we need to do something about it. NOW!

If there is any contact this next event other than maybe related to mechanical issues (tire blowouts/blown motors..etc) which caused problems and a racing incident, then I will probably quit this series. We are not professional race car drivers no matter what our license tells us. I'm probably one of the biggest offenders when it comes to wanting to win, but have realized that a misspelled piece of lucite is not worth what's important in my life.

The name of the game is to have fun and enjoy the competition. It's not ok to rub. It's not ok bump. It is ok to get close and have a mutual respect for the others and their space.

Personally, I think it comes down to risk vs. reward then. Any and all contact is bad. Throw in why the driver did what they did with the risk and reward equation and it's clear who is on a different level of "control".

We need everyone to be on or above par out on-track.

Penalties must be stiffer and there was an idea shared with me that the veterans should get the stiffest penalty thown at them for contact. I agree, we should know better and set the example for the rookies!

Take this rant for what it's worth. You have been warned.

[mitchntx]

Eric, I will follow your lead ... like most everyone else does on track. :P

Gentlemen, this has GOT to stop.

If your car sucks, get the F out of the way. If your car breaks, get it off the track. If you suck, find hot pit and a bottle of water.

Conversely, if you see a car that sucks, a broken car or a driver not up to snuff, give a little room.

There will be other races ...

[jeffburch]

Eric,

Please look me up in the Cresson 1st thing.
We've got to talk.

Thx,

jb

[Mike Bell]

Agreed, I was a BIG offender last event and while I deeply regret hitting Nick I can't make excuses: 100% my fault and I am taking mental steps to prevent it from happening again.

[GlennCMC70]

i've said this before and i'll post it here for all to see.
you have to ask yourself two questions, not just one, when it comes to attemping a pass.
1st - can i get there (possition)?
2nd - what am i gonna do when i get it (position)?

if your getting position only in an attempt to play "chicken" w/ the other driver, you shouldnt be there and shouldnt have put yourself there.

i personnaly am very disapointed w/ the level/lack of paitients to "find a better time/place" for a pass. i'm also surprised @ how many of those of us have no idea what "drive it off" means. loosing control and re-entering the track backwards/sideways is by far the most upsetting thing i see. makes me think some didnt spend enough time in HPDE enviroments prior to w-2-w racing. thats the type of thing other drivers cant predict and will cause a major accident.
i've been quiet for most of this year, i'm now going back to doing that.

[AI#97]

Glenn, first of all, I am NOT attacking...this is the mature adding a point voice....

to further your point about passing someone and it's a good point, the car being OVERTAKEN must have the same mentality. I will accept the thought of "how can I let this guy by without losing more positions..." But, not watching the mirror is just as bad as pushing a bad situation.

I like the fact that others seem to have taken a step back and are looking at this from someone else's position. This is a positive thought process and if we are all willing to step up and be responsible, refine our practices of on track conduct, we WILL be moving forward.

This is all a good discussion and the SHOCK of serious statements can be harsh, but sometimes necessary. I like the fact that Varner is stepping up as a veteran and hopes to set and strong example. This kind of thinking will be what keeps this group together. Eric, just don't do what I ALMOST did and give up....race to your comfort level and no further....that's my game for now.

See Ya'll in a couple weeks.


i've said this before and i'll post it here for all to see.
you have to ask yourself two questions, not just one, when it comes to attemping a pass.
1st - can i get there (possition)?
2nd - what am i gonna do when i get it (position)?

if your getting position only in an attempt to play "chicken" w/ the other driver, you shouldnt be there and shouldnt have put yourself there.

i personnaly am very disapointed w/ the level/lack of paitients to "find a better time/place" for a pass. i'm also surprised @ how many of those of us have no idea what "drive it off" means. loosing control and re-entering the track backwards/sideways is by far the most upsetting thing i see. makes me think some didnt spend enough time in HPDE enviroments prior to w-2-w racing. thats the type of thing other drivers cant predict and will cause a major accident.
i've been quiet for most of this year, i'm now going back to doing that.

[oz98cobra]

As newbie who had their baptism of fire at an event with no less than 8 contact incidents, I'm happy to see this conversation - and hopefully it will translate into the right attitude on the track.

But we also have to be carefull not to go from one extreme to the other - this is motor racing people, and some car to car contact is inevitable when you have 30 cars running around a race track only feet or inches away from each other. If you truly do not want to expect any contact, then go back to HPDE (and even that is no guarantee contact won't happen - it has and does!)

Having the right attitude and temperement is what we need to achieve, but we have to be carefull we don't create an enviroment whereby the next person to be involved in any kind of contact is treated like a leper who let the team down. We can and need to strive for zero contact, but the reality is that there is going to be some no matter how carefull, aware, and skilled we are - that is motor racing and it happens at all levels from kids go karting to mega dollar pro racing and everywhere in between.

To me, there is a big difference between a minor racing incident like side-to-side, and contact caused by recklessness, over exuberance, impatience, poor judgement, or driving beyond your skill level or comfort zone. We should expect the odd minor racing incident, perhaps as often as once or twice an event - thats racing folks - it's the other stuff we have to stop, and I hope this is what Eric is trying to achieve?

[Rob Liebbe]

Bad judgement looks like this or even worse, an injury. It has taken a long time for me to recover just fom my incident over a year ago.

It's for fun, it's for fun, it's for fun.

Crashes, additional repair bills and most of all injuries are not worth the gain in this series.

It reallty isn't PRO racing as the sanctioning body name implies.

[chris-CMC#35]

wise words from many racers: "you don't win the race in the first turn." let's start with some patience there; it might spread through the rest of the track/race.

-chris

[AI#97]

It reallty isn't PRO racing as the sanctioning body name implies.

oooh! Rob, that is a sensitive one for sure. That is how it's being billed and sold to the general public. I think we should all step up and hold ourselves to that level.... If it isn't PRO racing, what is it? That CCR isn't as verbose as it is for nothing!!! :lol: should I write in "semi-" in front of the word PRO RACING on my required four NASA stickers?!!!

Can someone please find way to put the :stickpoke: smily on this board?!!!

Thanks,

[cmarvel]

I will consider the next meeting a great step forward if no one crashes under a full course caution. I agree with Daron that incidental contact is not our greatest concern. I can accept racing incidents as a cost of close racing, but there is no such thing as a racing incident when the yellow is out.

And just for the record, I am not quitting no matter how many incidents there are. I came from Spec7 :wink:


BTW, the size of the rule book is frequently larger for amature racing. In many pro series, the people who make the rules do so on an as needed basis. If you think the CCR is longwinded, check out the book for the other club.

At least NASA provides some rational basis for deciding who is at fault.

[Rob Liebbe]

My comment about PRO-Racing is that we should just realize that there is no great reward for dangerous or unreasonable behavior as none of our livelihoods depend on it. Jay and Shannon may be exceptions.

[Boudy]

OK, you pushed the BUTTON.

Guys, I'm a rookie and will be serving my time in HPDE for the first event and maybe more. However, I do have seat time, I know better, and I won't join you until the time is right. If I ever touch your car, expect a visit from me with my humble hand extended and an offer to fix it. It's just that simple. Thanks Eric, this discussion is further support to my decission to join this class.

Add this to the rant file:

I raced dirt and would go home pissed every night. They just didn't care what they damaged or how much damage they did. All for 9th place over 10th. A differnce of $10 in pay. Contact just rubs more than my paint. I never understood just what gives some racers the mentality that it's OK to take the liberty to damage MY SH*T and figure, "OH WELL." To me, it's the same as running into my truck or trailer. What's the difference? IT'S MY SH*T, I PAID FOR IT, I HAVE TO FIX IT. :evil: :evil: :evil: I've seen some awful stuff condoned in the name of RACING. That's BULLSH*T. If I touch your vehicle on the street accidentally, I'm liable. Intentionally, I go to jail and I'm still liable. Somehow, on the track, it's acceptable. Well, it's truely unacceptable when guys operate a race car far beyond the abilities of himself and the car. Placing himself, me, and everyone else around in physical danger.

With that said, I understand this is racing and accidents happen when out on the edge. My pretty new car will get damaged. :cry: :cry: :cry: It's the way we handle it afterwards and what we learn form it that counts.

Finally, From the bottom of my heart, I truely respect this group's integrity to Self Check from within. I look forward to meeting those I haven't yet. See you at the track.

Boudy

[chicane23]

Chris M. who are you direction the full course caution comments towards? I have noticed you have mentioned it twice now.

[CMC17]

I have read and re-read my statement and stand by it. After the numerous PM's I want to make a few things clear.

1. We all take risks, but when those risks involve someone else then it becomes much more than "your" risk.

2. Reward. There is nothing better than executing a clean pass on someone. This of course goes without saying. However, at what risk?

3. There are many of us that have spoken up and expressed our concerns.



If your car sucks, get the F out of the way. If your car breaks, get it off the track. If you suck, find hot pit and a bottle of water.

Aboslutely! The smartest a thing a driver could do is know when enough is enough and either get out of the way off the racing line, pull into the pits and know when their day is done.



You have to ask yourself two questions, not just one, when it comes to attemping a pass.
1st - can i get there (position)?
2nd - what am i gonna do when i get it (position)?

Again, this excellent point keeps coming up. Risk vs. Reward. Are you willing to risk contact, nudge, bump or take someone out to make a pass? The correct answer is - No. If you chose 'yes', please start at the top of this thread again.


Eric, just don't do what I ALMOST did and give up....race to your comfort level and no further....that's my game for now.

I don't plan on giving up or throwing in the towel. But, if I see the same type chaotic driving out on-track, then I don't want to be out there.. plain and simple.


To me, there is a big difference between a minor racing incident like side-to-side, and contact caused by recklessness, over exuberance, impatience, poor judgement, or driving beyond your skill level or comfort zone. We should expect the odd minor racing incident, perhaps as often as once or twice an event - thats racing folks - it's the other stuff we have to stop, and I hope this is what Eric is trying to achieve?

Yes, racing is racing and there will be some contact <incident> due to unexpected situations. You bring to the table many points that are spot on, Daron!
I'm looking more towards the control.. or lack of it that might cause contact. This, IMHO is unacceptable and will not be tolerated on any level.
If car "A" blows a radiator hose in a corner and car "B" slides into car "C" because of it, then the towel stays in the bag.


Bad judgement looks like this or even worse, an injury. It has taken a long time for me to recover just fom my incident over a year ago.

The goal is to help prevent these situations from occuring. I was bummed beyond words when that incident happened and was glad everyone was ok. I'm going to grab a front row seat in CM's SA class.


you don't win the race in the first turn." let's start with some patience there; it might spread through the rest of the track/race.

Great advice, Chris! I have seen and been a part of some crazy first corner antics. Patience is the key! I don't want to race with a bunch of carebears either, but showing restraint and patience along with respecting the other guys position is paramount!


...there is no such thing as a racing incident when the yellow is out.

Absolutely!!! Anyone other line of thought here is just plain stupid. Again, I will be on the front row in the situational awareness class.


Chris M. who are you direction the full course caution comments towards? I have noticed you have mentioned it twice now.

There were about 7 or 8 drivers that continuted to "race" while the caution flag was out. I was one of them and made a huge mistake that won't happen again. I don't think CM is pointing fingers at anyone in particular, but wants to bring up a very valid concern that we "all" should learn by.


_______________
Again, I'm only voicing my opinion here. I'd like to see a director step in and take charge of this thread. Self reflection and making the necessary changes for the betterment of this group needs to happen and it cannot be tomorrow, it has to be today and every day!

[GlennCMC70]

John, i dodnt thick Chris was taking aim @ you. just making comments and thoughts out loud. chris is a good guy.
i am also guilty of a pass under yellow durring that race. i've told Scott i was sorry and would support his protest. we've talk and he's o.k. w/ it, and i know i owe him one. we all make mistakes, and i'll be able to pay him back one day. :wink:

[Boudy]

IMHO:

I truely expected a couple holdouts defending the ole' Racing is Racing song and dance. Instead, there is unanimous consent to the issue. This open communications is productive and helpful.

As a rookie not knowing most of you, I'm impressed. Most groups argue for page after page over where to park at the event.

Boudy

[Todd Covini]

_______________
Again, I'm only voicing my opinion here. I'd like to see a director step in and take charge of this thread. Self reflection and making the necessary changes for the betterment of this group needs to happen and it cannot be tomorrow, it has to be today and every day!

See my post here:
http://www.aicmctexas.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=93&start=15

-=- Todd

[CMC17]

_______________
Again, I'm only voicing my opinion here. I'd like to see a director step in and take charge of this thread. Self reflection and making the necessary changes for the betterment of this group needs to happen and it cannot be tomorrow, it has to be today and every day!

See my post here:
http://www.aicmctexas.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=93&start=15

-=- Todd

Could we get a list of the penalties that could be assessed, how they accumulate and the consequences?

I'd like to know ahead of time so I know what to expect the race weekend(s).

<edit addition>
I'm trying to keep everything under one thread and maybe get a sticky.

[Boudy]

Ditto. I agree that this thread is worth a "sticky"

Boudy

[Adam Ginsberg]

Could we get a list of the penalties that could be assessed, how they accumulate and the consequences?

Sure - look here (http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf). The same place they've been since we started racing in Texas in 2003.

[Mike Bell]

Ok, but those penalties haven't been assessed as detailed in the CCR's. I realize that NASA TX had their hands full last event and that the IRB was probably overwhelmed but I can't help but think that I got off easy because of the tragedy that weekend.

According to the rules I should have had a disqualification and a 1 race suspension for a punt and damage. I'd like to request if NASA TX would reconsider and apply the penalties to my incident with Nick Runyon as detailed in the CCR's?

Otherwise, it isn't "right" that I'd get to benefit from the timing of my incident.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Folks - there is a reason why incidents get handled at the track, with penalties/etc being levied quickly. In time, memories fade, emotions get inflamed, and agendas can be thought out.

NASA Texas, with the IRB, not the series directors, make the decisions regarding penalties. The March event is over, penalties assessed.

As for "getting off easy".....NASA has a method of progressive discipline. Same method we've used since 2003. Incidents are reviewed, prior incidents taken into consideration, and NASA Texas presents it's decision(s).

To the rookies, and veterans, among us - read the NASA CCR's. Thoroughly, especially Section 25 ( On-Course Conduct ), and Appendix A. There is much to be learned on those nifty black and white pages.....for everyone.

NASA Texas has the discretion to assess harsher or more lenient penalties based on the circumstances - the CCR's are the basis to go off of.

Frankly, I'm surprised a few veterans are asking where to look for penalties, assessments, and consequences. Our group has had a somewhat rich history. :wink:

[CMC17]

Frankly, I'm surprised a few veterans are asking where to look for penalties, assessments, and consequences. Our group has had a somewhat rich history. :wink:

<edit>The reference to where to find the penalties might have been for the new guys. Lets have some order for once when damage/infraction occurs. Too many times there have been those that have gotten away with incidents and it has got to STOP. <edit>

Concentrate on what needs to be done and learn from the past!

[Nick]

I agree with what's been said.
Seeing the way Dickey was handled was yet another reason to join this group/NASA.
Contact has gone to far and needs to simmer down. Save me a seat Eric.

[AI#97]

I am going to be the asshole here and suggest we all stop typing long winded replies.....MAYBE we will see a race report before the next event!!!

:D :P this is all good stuff guys but you are starting to sound like some fukcing rookie that was spouting off a few weeks ago...

:poking and stirring smiley here!:

[chicane23]

Boy are you going to be in trouble!

You will get your butt in the lower side of the pitts with me if you keep it up! ;-)

[AI#97]

Boy are you going to be in trouble!

You will get your butt in the lower side of the pitts with me if you keep it up! ;-)

Look at it this way...If we can get all the pussy bleeding out of our systems on the forum and then be able to drink beers without hitting each other over the heads with them we should be fine right?! We are all intelligent human beings and as long as we can put our egos in the glove box of the tow vehicle for a moment and do what is right for the series, then all of this will seem really childish on 4/24/06.....or so we hope right? Everyone just put the claws away, think before you type, delete every 3rd post before you hit "submit" and we will come through this with a "new plan".....


BUT, what do I know....I am just A.F.R..... :D And for the record, I will pitt anywhere!

Damn, maybe this was that 3rd post I should have deleted???

Yay! My tires are round!

[CMC17]

In a nutshell we are all looking for boundries that we know are there and if we cross them there will be a set penalty. Ok, so not everything is black and white, but up to this point I have no idea what to expect from one weekend to another. The rumors get started regarding the lack of penalties/punishment. The contact continues with little to no consequence.

I'm trying to keep this thread on-track and focused on the problem. I don't need anyone pointing fingers about anything else and ask to keep the issue at hand in focus.

The CCR is strict and to the point, but it has been mentioned that it is a guideline of sorts. Penalties need to be stiff and fair along with quick and decisive.

[AI#97]

Eric, Just trying to point out that the horse has been dead for days, we've shot it, driven over it and then backed up. Now all we need is someone to clean it up...... We have all made our points, SOMEONE is listening....? Let's all show up on Saturday morning at the track and discuss "direction" then. In the mean time let's all get our cars ready, torque our lugnuts, adjust our belts and go racing.....SMARTLY! That's my plan except I am going to sit back and fire up some popcorn and a open a cold beer while you guys hash all this BS out...once you do, let us know and we can jump off from there. I am spent from reading it all.

<----cashed in get out of jail free card and needs a d-hall pass with a fake signature! :wink:

[CMC17]

[trying to keep this in the "Talk" forum and within the family]

Ok, now I'm getting aggrivated. Listen up. The time to work the issues with contact and/or penalties is now, before the event. I want to have a clear direction ahead of time. I don't want to show up and get the same song and dance, it's time for a stand. For all of those that have no interest in this, please exit this thread. No one makes you read it. If you aren't part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. Keep this thread on-track.

Yes, there seems to be support in mass that something needs to be done regarding the contact. Looks like I've gone from wearing the white hat to the black one. Call it frustration.

There are those that have a keen interest in running with us in either CMC or AI. There are also a lot of rookies that might want to hear what has to be said.

One word - deterrence

<for those that might have missed the other thread>

From the CCR:

1. Contact bumper to bumper with no deviation and no damage: No penalty
2. Any sheet metal contact with no damage and no deviation: No penalty
3. Any contact causing deviation, with no damage, but loss of a position: Reposition
4. Any contact resulting in “damage” as defined by these guidelines: One (1) race suspension
5. Any contact resulting in a “punt” as defined by these guidelines: Disqualification
6. Any contact resulting in damage and punt: Disqualification and one (1) race suspension
7. Passing under a standing yellow or double yellow: Reposition to last place (minimum)
8. Passing under waving yellow and / or over-driving any yellow: Disqualification (minimum)

[CMC17]

Is this something else that could be considered?

From the CCR:

27.12 Driver’s Points System
The IRB shall elect a “Pointskeeper” for the sake of keeping track of on track violations and penalties. Because the faults and/or penalties may be appealed, no results shall be official until personally approved by the Race Director, and/or published in The Penalty Box section of Speednews. The Pointskeeper will keep a tally on the accumulation of driver’s points for each driver. The following are guidelines for assigning points.

1. Contact bumper to bumper with no deviation and no damage: No points
2. Any sheet metal contact with no damage and no deviation: One (1) point each
3. Any contact causing deviation, with no damage, but loss of a position: Three (3) points for the offender, one (1) point for the other driver.
4. Any contact resulting in “damage” as defined by these guidelines: Three (3) points for the offender, one (1) point for the other driver.
5. Any contact resulting in a “punt” as defined by these guidelines: Three (3) points for the offender, one (1) point for the other driver.
6. Any contact resulting in damage and punt: Three (3) points for the offender, one (1) point for the other driver.
7. Passing under a standing yellow or double yellow: Two (2) points
8. Passing under waving yellow and/or over-driving any yellow: Three (3) points

27.12.1 Point Limit- Annual
Any driver accumulating ten (10) points during the season (January-December) shall be required to appear before the IRB. The IRB shall review the driving record of the offending driver and take appropriate action. Appropriate action may range from awarning to suspension or a recommendation to the Race Director for exclusion from a series or even expulsion from NASA.

[Adam Ginsberg]

In an attempt to tone this down a bit.....

We have been discussing these issues with Clifton since the March event. NASA Texas Race Control will be addressing this during our Saturday mandatory drivers meeting. All drivers are required to attend.

[gt40]

In an attempt to tone this down a bit.....

We have been discussing these issues with Clifton since the March event. NASA Texas Race Control will be addressing this during our Saturday mandatory drivers meeting. All drivers are required to attend.Adam, does this mean that the kind of incidents (particularly those under yellow,) from the March event will now be dealt with during the race?

It's great to see us, as a group, trying to clean up our act, but I'd have liked to see a little more enforcement from race officials. I won't throw any stones unless this sort of thing happens again.

[mitchntx]

Tone it down?

It's the CCR for crying out loud.

I think all we are asking for is for the rules to be enforced when there is contact.

Also ... who is the IRB?

[Mike Bell]

In an attempt to tone this down a bit.....

We have been discussing these issues with Clifton since the March event. NASA Texas Race Control will be addressing this during our Saturday mandatory drivers meeting. All drivers are required to attend.

I'd like to have this info PRIOR to registration for the next event please.

[michaelmosty]

Eric, Just trying to point out that the horse has been dead for days, we've shot it, driven over it and then backed up. Now all we need is someone to clean it up...... We have all made our points, SOMEONE is listening....? Let's all show up on Saturday morning at the track and discuss "direction" then. In the mean time let's all get our cars ready, torque our lugnuts, adjust our belts and go racing.....SMARTLY! That's my plan except I am going to sit back and fire up some popcorn and a open a cold beer while you guys hash all this BS out...once you do, let us know and we can jump off from there. I am spent from reading it all.

<----cashed in get out of jail free card and needs a d-hall pass with a fake signature! :wink:

Guys,
We all need to listen to what Matt is saying, he speaks from experience....."torque our lugnuts". :lol: :lol: :lol:

[oz98cobra]

While we are re-reading the CCRs, don't just focus on the penalties - re-reading some of the other sections may actually help avoid situations from arising in the first place!

For example, I know from a coversation at the track in March that many drivers were not aware that this section is in the CCRs - and it's in the COMPETITION section, not the HPDE section:

19.5.2 Passing Signals - driver
To assist another driver in overtaking you, hand signals should be used whenever possible. The driver may do this by pointing to the side he/she wants to be passed on in such a fashion that is visible to the overtaking driver.

We have all seen professional drivers giving hand signals in top level racing, and they are much better at "reading" what other drivers are doing than we are, so we really should be using them if appropriate for the situation.

Whoever wrote the CCRs has a sense of humor as the next paragraph goes on to state that the middle finger is not a valid hand signal :lol:

A re-read of Apendix A wouldn't hurt any of us either - perhaps before every race weekend?

[Nick]

Adam, does this mean that the kind of incidents (particularly those under yellow,) from the March event will now be dealt with during the race?


It sounds like a good idea, but in this case the corner workers had a lot of who passed who wrong.
They said I had passed under yellow when actually I was being given back the spot after I had been passed under yellow.

I'm not sure what solution would be best in this case.

[gt40]

Adam, does this mean that the kind of incidents (particularly those under yellow,) from the March event will now be dealt with during the race?


It sounds like a good idea, but in this case the corner workers had a lot of who passed who wrong.
They said I had passed under yellow when actually I was being given back the spot after I had been passed under yellow.

I'm not sure what solution would be best in this case.Me either. The ideal solution would be that both passes under yellow (you being passed, and you taking your spot back,) would be reported, and someone would figure out that the second pass was OK and not assess a penalty for the second pass.

How do other regions handle stuff like this?

The pros have a lot more eyes on the track, and personel to coordinate penalizing (i.e. an official communicates with your chief mechanic that you're being penalized, and those two work it out while the driver stays out.) We don't have that luxury...

[AI#97]

Adam, does this mean that the kind of incidents (particularly those under yellow,) from the March event will now be dealt with during the race?


It sounds like a good idea, but in this case the corner workers had a lot of who passed who wrong.
They said I had passed under yellow when actually I was being given back the spot after I had been passed under yellow.

I'm not sure what solution would be best in this case.

Better trained corner workers.....

FOr the record....I have watched MY video, Varner's video and Donovan's videos...granted the digital rips aren't great....however, I have yet to see a waving or even stationary double yellow flag in any of the 3 videos in the corner station at rattlesnake.....AFTER marshal's dead car yes....but nothing conclusive prior to that...It could be just bad video quality but if the CW's aren't going out of their way to show us flags.....then all I can say is "what flag".....

on the "bad" lap in R4, I remembered marshall's car being stalled, let out in wagon wheel as I saw it, the yellow flag and the point at which I dove up on the curb to miss Donovan who was diving to miss marshall. I will accept all the responsibility as I must if given PROPER signals from the CW's.....given their history...I am still not convinced they did their best to signal us....elevated stands would be better in my mind because it is difficult to see through another car when your ass is only 4" off the ground!!!

<----getting eyes checked so he doesn't miss a thing in the future!!!! Even though I already have 20/15 corrected vision!.

[gt40]

Better trained corner workers.....

I am still not convinced they did their best to signal us....elevated stands would be better in my mind because it is difficult to see through another car when your ass is only 4" off the ground!!!How about better training and better equipment? I'd like to see bright lights elevated above the corner station indicating that station's status:

green -- hot track
red -- stop (same as red flag)
yellow -- standing yellow
flashing yellow -- waving yellow
all -- track is closed