lap time progression.......

[GlennCMC70]

i was thinking about lap times from Round 2 @ MSR-C today. i was trying to remember what i ran the first day i had my CMC car out back in '05. so i looked @ the qual times from 3-5&6-05.
a scorching 1:31.996 (last!) for sat qual. 3 whole seconds from the 4th place guy (previous season Champ), 4.5+second off pole. transopnder broke durring the next two races. next timed lap, sunday qual - 1:28.196, 2 seconds off pole. that turned out to be my best lap of the weekend.
it took me 2 full seasons of racing (59 races to date) to get where i am now (where is that?) - lap time wise.
point of this post? not sure of my point. i ran MSR-C from 99-04 in my street car running 27-28's in it. 3600-3700 pound 98 Camaro w/ 450+rwhp/422 rwtq w/ 4 pot brembo's on 13" brakes w/ 315's on all 4 corners. this track was not new to me in '05.
so why all this dribble? i hear alot of folks comment on how they will never be able to match the times Jeff and myself have put up for MSR-C. i say BS! i think many in our group have it in them to best my times and surely Jeff's. i hear talk about how X platform is maxed and cant hang w/ Y platform. i say BS! learn what it takes to get your car there. ask a fellow racer what he's doing to fix issue A and talk w/ guys about what set up they run. from talking w/ the group over the last 2 events, i get the feeling alot of guys are unsure of what change to make and how changes will effect the car. is there a need for a suspension "how to" class? if i work to get a free clinic set-up w/ some pro racers, would most of you guys be intrested?
what would you guys like to see offered along the lines of "classroom instruction" that you guys feel would help you out? what can i do to make you a better and faster driver?
feedback please.

[Rob Liebbe]

Good post Glenn. I certainly feel that you have spent a LOT of time, money and effort on your program and it shows. If I spent that much time I would certainly be kickin' more ass than I currently do (or at least try to do).

Car setup is certainly a black art at times, seat time is also magical. Todd is a good example of a long term development project gone right. He has had his Mustang on the track for a long time and he and the car have an understanding that allows him to consitently place in the podium (when he doesn't get too greedy and spin out - Thanks Todd, keep it up). Eric is a good tuner and just drives with shear will and determination.


As far as platform goes, at some point in time each one of us chose a platform for some reason or another. No one was forced to choose one over the other. No one is forced to continue with one or the other (starting over is of course costly). See what info you can garner from your platform buddies and move forward.

I'm not as competitive as others, but I still have a TON of fun no matter where I place, but placing well certainly adds to the thrill factor and I will just keep tuning and running the old 'Stang as best as I can.

Glenn's offer of setup instruction is a good one. We should take him up on it. Professional driver or Glenn - either could give lots of valuable information. Car setup information as well as driver training should always be welcome.

See y'all on the track soon.

[mitchntx]

Good post Glenn. I certainly feel that you have spent a LOT of time, money and effort on your program and it shows. If I spent that much time I would certainly be kickin' more ass than I currently do (or at least try to do).


I think it's important to clarify something here ...

Not a lot of money has been spent on the cars finding these precious seconds of time on track. A couple hundred bucks on springs at varying rates and that cost has been split 3 ways.

Pigtail springs at 25lb increments and 1 inch increment ride hieghts can be had from pitstopusa.com for under $50 each. I got an e-mail newsletter last November where they were reducing inventory and got them of $30 each. So, I was able to get 4 different rates for $250.

And that is the ONLY hard part changes we've made. The rest is homework and tweaking.

Now, a considerable amount of money has been spent on track time and subsequently tires and brakes. But many of you have free track time as instructors that I/we just don't have.

Also, getting input from other racers has helped validate findings.

The flip side is that we have invested a LOT of time. And families suffer because of it. I'm fortunate in that my kids are all grown up. While they still seem to require the same amount of support and attention, can now tell them to go away without fear of CPS retribution.

Just a couple points that need clarifying so folks will back off the ledge.

[Boudy]

I'm in for a suspension seminar.

Boudy

[Rob Liebbe]

Mitch,

I agree that you and Glenn have not spent money on extravagent or unusual parts for the car. I was indeed refering to the cost of testing on a track.

I also wholeheartedly agree about having younger families, my 8 yr old and 4 yr old boys still require quite a bit of attention. Maybe when I'm an older fart, I'll spend more time tuning.

[mitchntx]

I apologize Rob ... I didn't intend to spear you or your specific comment. But I do think there is some misplaced understanding of how the 4th gens got from point A to point B.

For the past year, Glenn and I have been eating, sleeping and drinking 4th gens in CMC. When Chris put my car on the podium at Hallett and it being his first time ever driving the car, Glenn and I both knew we were on to something.

All kidding aside and no cat pictures linked, why did we do it?

Because the bar was raised so high by those that went before us. We could have easily just given up and went and did something else.

But we chose to stay because of all the folks in this region that I consider friends, not necessarily the racing or competition.

We chose to be a part of the group and stop being such pains in the butt.

We chose to stay and just work harder.

[GlennCMC70]

the point of my post was more about getting those of us who want to work to go faster a chance to learn to do so and get this bunch back to a 1-2 second field of 15 cars.
there seems to be a big disparity of experiance level in this group w/ regards to chassis tuning. thats fine, as this is the right level to learn @. this is about helping those who want to help themselves. John has offered this type of class before w/ Griggs (cost $$ right?). i'm hoping to locate someone who would do it for free - or possibly use some of the series dues for this. i would like to target TWS weekend, but we may have to resort to something in the DFW or Houston area on a non-race weekend.
Lou Gigliotti is one who comes to mind. i know him and he has done this type of thing in the past. i've sat thru it several times myself. if anyone knows of another person who could do this, let me know.
i didnt want this thread to dwell on the X platform vs Y platform.
i also would be willing to sit down w/ anyone at anytime and talk about whati know. but realize, its limited to 4th gens. the principals are the same, the specs will net be howerver. i dont know it all and i'm not a good teacher, but i'm open w/ my info.

[Boudy]

Blah blah, blah blah blah...

Did I mention, "I'm in."

Boudy

[Boudy]

BTW: Mine's been on jack stands for weeks and doesn't have a suspension part on it that hasn't been removed, inspected, and/or replaced. I found several problems that accounted for some of my laptime defecit in recent events. My Point - You're preachin' to the choir dudes.

Boudy

[mitchntx]

If you don't already have it, I suggest you get it ...

http://www.amazon.com/How-Make-Your-Car-Handle/dp/0912656468

[GlennCMC70]

well due to lack of intrest, i'll write this off for now.
if i'm wrong for assuming so, please let me know.
Robert, i'll help in any way i can, just ask.

[jeffburch]

Lou or AJ either, I'll show up.
I never stop learning.
thx,
jb

[GlennCMC70]

lets get something worked out.

[AllZWay]

I was just waiting on details.

[oz98cobra]

I've watched all these posts about platform parity and related issues such as this one, and I've avoided posting, but I'll throw in my two bits worth here.

Firstly, on the issue of "platform parity", I've had the opportunity to drive a couple of the CMC mustangs in our group and a couple of the CMC F-bodies in our group - and I own none of them - so I have a somewhat unique insight that is less biased than most. Without going into specific details, my opinion is that both platforms have different strengths and weaknesses, but overall they are remarkably well matched. As to which one I personally would want to take into battle? Well, while I concede that the GM product might be easier to drive near the limit, and it may even be capable of turning a faster qual time on some tracks, I'd pick the Mustang - it's a much nimbler weapon and in skilled hands my opinion is that it it should offer an edge in wheel to wheel combat on the majority of tracks that we race on with NASA Texas.

To the Mustang owners who might be feeling that they are at a disadvantage right now, I say stop wining about it, man up and get back in the sandpit, and do something about your car's preparation - and the driver's preparation! Anyone who thinks that there is or has been a CMC Mustang in this region that is/was prepped and tuned to the max within the limits of the rules is seriously deluded. Don't get me wrong, I think overall the average level of prep in our region is as good if not better than anywhere else in the country, but there is PLENTY of room for improvement! And I could make exactly the same comment about driver ability!

The bottom line is this - regardless if the type of car you drive, if you just want to have a blast on race weekends and winning championships is not your primary motivator, than an average prepped car and average driver skills are going to do just fine - CMC is still the perfect place to play and there will plenty of like minded competitors to play with. But if you want to win a championship - at least in our region - the bar has been raised high enough that you have to invest considerable time and effort to finish consistently up front. There is nothing wrong with that picture - that's how it is with most any mature racing class.

While I applaud Glenn's efforts to improve the knowledge within the group, I'm not so sure any kind of generic "pro-driver" clinic is going to be of any more benefit to the average racer than reading a good book - there are plenty of books available and they are going to be cheaper than a pro-driver clinic! I think the best way for a driver to improve their car is to network with those who are racing the same type of car - both within our region and there would also be some benefit in building relationships with racers in other regions?

What Glenn and Mitch have done with their cars is the perfect example. This doesn't mean everyone has to spend $1000 of dollars on DEs and 100s of hours tinkering with your cars either - although as the bar is raised higher over time that may indeed become necessary if you want to win a championship, and it is much more difficult to test and tune ideas during a race weekend than it is at a DE. So find a buddy with a similar car who you are willing to share info with. Drive each others cars - record information - make notes - look at what is working for others - and what is not - make changes to your car and document the results of those changes, etc.

Another thing that helps a whole bunch is to have a "Crew Chief" - another person to help you with the car. For example, you cannot hot pit your car and take tire temps and pressures in the middle of a practice session without a helper. If you don't have a significant other to fill this role, then recruit a buddy who can come help you out on weekends, or buddy up with a newbie who is still running HPDE, or form a 2-driver team. You'd be surprised at how much benefit this can be!

[jeffburch]

Once again, I whole heartedly agree with Mister Cooke.

Cue the music Boudreaux..................

jb

[GlennCMC70]

nice post Darron.
however, i did not want this to be about the issue of parity among platforms in CMC. thats not what this was about. it was more about getting the skillset of our group up to another level.
i was also going to try and find a "free" instructor. Lou has done it in the past. Bobby Archer has too. Steve Hill would be a good cadidate (so i have heard). anyone knows a good person for this, let me know. they dont have to be a "Pro Racer", hell even we are NASA "Pro" Racers.

[Todd Covini]

Good post guys. AI/CMC was built and grown on the open paddock atmosphere and sharing of information, parts and helping hands. We've achieved and always strive for parity in the series, especially CMC, thru many, many years of dyno days, swapping cars, sharing of info, etc.

While the offer/idea of a suspension seminar by an outside pro is nice, I think the simple sharing of info within the group on an ongoing informal basis (like mentoring) will continue to compress lap times within the fields as we've seen since Day 1 in Texas.

I'm not taking anything away from the gurus at Griggs, MM, LG and the like...just saying that those experts provide awesome insight as to how to make the car really fast...after that, there's a whole bunch of personal tweaking that can be done (which people like myself have never had the time or patience for).

-=- Todd

[Boudy]

OK, you asked for it...

http://www.argentlab.com/nasatx/misc/Sainch%20it%20Up.mp3

Boudy

[oz98cobra]

nice post Darron.
however, i did not want this to be about the issue of parity among platforms in CMC. thats not what this was about. it was more about getting the skillset of our group up to another level.
i was also going to try and find a "free" instructor. Lou has done it in the past. Bobby Archer has too. Steve Hill would be a good cadidate (so i have heard). anyone knows a good person for this, let me know. they dont have to be a "Pro Racer", hell even we are NASA "Pro" Racers.

I hear you Glenn, and I didn't mean to derail your topic - but it was related, so I lumped my 2 bits worth into one basket.

The "problem" with someone like Lou, Bobby or Steve Hill is that the info they have to impart, as good as it is, tends to be heavily biased towards the platform they have the most, or most recent, experience with. So if we were to do something with a "pro", I think it would be most useful if the topic of discussion was more along the lines of test n tune and development procedures that the pros use, rather than suspension tech as such.

For more targeted knowledge, I still think the best place to look is within our own group, as least for the Mustang crowd - there are several knowledgeable individuals who have a wealth of clues about making a Mustang work who are not currently running CMC - Messers Marvel and Pedersen for example? Mr Manor?. I can't speak for them of course, but I am sure some of them would be quite approachable for advice? I am already assisting a couple of the CMC Mustang guys, and would be happy to help anyone else who asks.

For the GM camp, between LAW and Mr Burch, there is none in the country who knows more about making CMC GMs work right?

[jeffburch]

I gave my setup vebatim to Mr. Wirtz.
Passed the Torch.
Be afraid hehe.

jb

[AllZWay]

For the GM camp, between LAW and Mr Burch, there is none in the country who knows more about making CMC GMs work right?

Glenn and Mitch said they were cutting me off from their support. :cry: :D

[mitchntx]

That's your own fault as well :P :lol: