Question about trouble with RR's

Finally got my car back together and getting ready for TWS. Went to Cresson Friday a week ago to test and am running into what I consider to be a pretty serious issue with the Toyo RR's.

After 3 heat cycles here is what I found today when I was checking everything over for this weekend.

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z...s8c93031f.jpeg

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z...s18b21b2c.jpeg

I read the TSB on mounting them with the DOT codes being out on the LF/RR and in RF/LR so they were mounted and marked correct prior to the run.

My question is if this is turning into a problem and have one of these tires come apart on someone yet? If this is the result after only 3 cycles, I'm sure they will fail.

Also, built up hot pressures were between 39-43 pounds (low/high) though out the day. Not sure what people are seeing pressure wise, but I was shooting for 39 pounds.

Any help would be appreciated.

Dave-glad to hear you have the car back on track. Sorry but I can't offer any insight into the tire other than it does look scary but also similar to the TSB they have on the tire splice showing. Maybe contact whoever you got the tires from to send a pic to them and see if they can get some tech from Toyo if that still looks normal. I don't know the difference in what is considered a normal/visible tread splice and an open tread splice. The bottom pic looks fine based on their TSB but not sure about the top pic. Did you see the TSB about the tread splice showing and not just the mounting procedure?
The pdf to the link is the first one on this page.

http://toyotires.com/customer-care/t...vice-bulletins



My RR's just showed up today and they sure seem soft.

Thanks, I'm glad to finally be able to play with it again.

I contacted Toyo yesterday, Toyo sent me to Tire Rack, Tire Rack had me email them pictures then they emailed the pictures to Toyo, Toyo said the top picture is warranty, the bottom isn't, but Toyo said that I need to flip the tire on the rim of the bottom pictured tire and the splice "should lay back down".

Yes, I have the TSB about the tire splice and the rotation, that's what concerned me was that they were correctly orientated on the car/rim. I always watch my tires pretty closely anyway, the RR's just may need to be checked much more often. Last thing I want to do is fling a damn tread off.

Glad to hear you're getting the top one replaced under warranty.

Dave,
Just for a reference point, what is your car weight?

Strangely enough my RRs look fine but one of my RA1s from Houston has a visible tread splice. 1313 date code...


http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/...readsplice.jpg

They are the same compound that's prob why both ra1 and RR did that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Suck fumes

They are the same compound that's prob why both ra1 and RR did that.

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If that is true (and I'm not saying it's not) then the tire should be a lot like the RA-1 in grip, heat cycles before losing speed, life, etc. If it's the same compound why would it be much if any different than a 4/32" shaved RA-1? I understand that there is more to a tire than the compound. Just wondering?

JJ

That's weird that they would warranty a racing tire. Has me worried that it's likely not a one off. Hope they don't have another debacle on their hands like the 888-but this isn't just a matter of a sorry tire this is a matter of a safe tire.

I knew nothing of the mounting instructions with the DOT numbers so I went out last night and looked at the six new tires I just bought. The four on the car are not all in the correct place but somehow without me knowing to tell them the guys mounted them three with numbers out and three with numbers in.


JJ

The RR has done that splicing thing since they came out. The miatas were doing it too. It only happens if you don't break them in gently and heat cycle them once before you romp on them. Pressures have a lot to do with it too.

I say the compound is the same because they act the same as far as heat cycling and they are the same softness. The RR is a little quicker cause it is completely smooth all around.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Suck fumes

The RR has done that splicing thing since they came out. The miatas were doing it too. It only happens if you don't break them in gently and heat cycle them once before you romp on them. Pressures have a lot to do with it too.

I say the compound is the same because they act the same as far as heat cycling and they are the same softness. The RR is a little quicker cause it is completely smooth all around.

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Need more info. Where does Toyo explain how we need to be gentle the first heat cycle? How long do you need to let them "rest" after the first gentle heat cycle?

JJ

Ditto, I'll likely run the track day Friday morning, I'd have almost 24hrs of rest time before I'd use them Saturday. Curious as to what I should do...

This tire looks to be the disaster we thought it would be. A tire should be able to be used as soon as it is put on the car... not babied around until a given time that Toyo deems appropriate.

These dayum things cost too friggin much to be so worried that you properly broke it in or ran it in the wrong direction. Never saw this problem before running the RA1.

agreed

I ran my RR's for the first time on Friday prior to MSR-C. Put 3 heat cycles on them that day. Only the first session was 6-7 tenths and that was just to figure out where pressures needed to be. They rested for all of an hour before I started to hit them VERY hard with about an hour or two between heat cycles on Friday. They now have 10 heat cycles over the course of 3 days (Fri-Sun) and I don't have any tread splices showing. That's with 327HP/349TQ on a 3200lb car, YMMV..

one heat cycle and pull them off and cover them to cool down slowly for 24 hours. Or you can pay $10 per tire to have them heat cycled though I'm told it's not as good as doing them on the car.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by marshall_mosty

Only the first session was 6-7 tenths and that was just to figure out where pressures needed to be.

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How does running at 6-7 tenths tell you anything about pressures? How does it tell you anything???


Richard P.

I never bothered to heat cycle both sets of RA1s, since both times I've just barely been getting the car to the track and had o.

So how do I "heat cycle" them? Just do a few 80% laps then park/dismount?

probably real same to Hoosier procedure - work up starting with not even 50% gradually up to 75-80% pace to build heat slowly and evenly (to avoid graining) and definitely don't slide/lock up/etc at all during this HC session. Then pull them off (avoids one spot staying hotter / flatter) or put the car on jackstands, blanket the tires (slows heat loss) if possible, and don't even look at them for a min of 24hrs - more is better if you can manage allegedly.

You're trying to "bake" the tire an additional time and in a way that can't be done by the factory to increase the length of the polymer rubber chains (so I've read anyway) which increases durability, longevity, and grip all at the same time supposedly. Sliding/locking tears the chains instead of baking them together.

This helps alot of (most..?) tires (not just "sensitive" ones) last longer and stay faster over more HCs - surprised the budget guys aren't already doing stuff like this. I know it helps me have the later heat cycles still end up faster than if I didn't bother doing it at all with the tires I've run but that's limited to pre-tsunami RA1s and Hoosiers. Someone like McSpadden has run more stuff and such.

I've always heat cycled all my tires. But it's usually just a few laps during practice then a few hrs of sitting before qualifying. Some is better than none. Any race tire will grain if you go 100% when new for a long period of time. If its sticker Hoosiers then they are fastest when new but most only run a few laps to get a flyer then they park it. If you stay out for a whole session you will grain them (Toyo included) and you might as well throw them away.

Just an update, Toyo did warranty the one tire and told me to verify rotation and the splice should lay down on the other. I ran yesterday and the splice in the one did in fact lay back down, the other three are fine. Marshall, actual car weight is 3452 with me and 4 gallons, HP is 360, TQ 376. Tires that are on the car now have 5 cycles on 3 and 2 on 1 (warranty tire). I was pretty rough on them yesterday and the new tire didn't show any issues, even running it hard first rattle out of the box.

As for warranty on a race tire, when I called Toyo, they were pretty rude, told me to call Tire Rack. Tire Rack on the other hand said no problem, had an answer 2 hours after they got the pictures. I agree though, Toyo wouldn't warranty a race tire that they didn't think had issues. The did want to know type of car and weight though.

We will see how they last the weekend. Being so long since I've been in my car, I'm not sure I could give an accurate comparison with the RA1's. I know the RA's always hated these pig heavy S197's, that's the sole reason for putting it on a major diet.

Looking back at the "history of race tires", Toyo has always had issues with their tires after they went away from the original RA1. R888 was a debacle. RA1 v2.0 was inferior to previous tire, and now the RR seems to be iffy for quality. Now look at the NT01 which was the same carcass as the old RA1 and they are still fantastic to this day. What has changed? New process? New carcass? New compound? Different manufacturing plant?

Now look at pricing on the new tires compared to other brands. While BFG, Hoosier and Goodyear had price increases of 10-15% over the years, TOYO has had nearly a 40-50% increase in costs to give you tires that have shorter life and iffy quality. Where BFG and Hoosier have had cost increases, they have worked to make the tires last longer. Toyo is just in the business of bleeding you guys dry with "newer and better tires that are good for the class."

Most of you guys have been around long enough to see this history and I would say this "path" is unacceptable. Only people making out on this deal are Toyo and maybe NASA if they are getting money to have Toyo as spec tire.

For what it's worth, we have been running BFG's for several events now and LOVE them! I think they would make a great tire for the series and you have the Rival for the rain tire.

Please dont act as though we are all happy with this tire because we use it. Lots of talk going around about changing it. At the end of the day, HQ has final say.