Guns

[Rob Liebbe]

I shot a Colt .357 similar to that this past weekend, seems like the barrel was shorter. Damn loud piece of iron. We had been shooting a variety of shotguns and .22's with earplugs without any issues. The first shot from the Colt with the same earplugs and my right ear went "blank" for about an hour.

Introduced my 9 year old son to my Armalite AR7 .22 survival rifle and an M4 .22 as well. Let's just say there were no turtles in that pond that were safe from at least being really annoyed by him. Turns out he is a pretty good shot.

[ShadowBolt]

Some more gun love ...




1978 Colt Python

DPS carried those back in the day. Replaced them with the Sig 45.
I bought my dads Colt then sold it and bought his Sig when he retired.

JJ

[rpoz27]

DPS carried those back in the day. Replaced them with the Sig 45.
I bought my dads Colt then sold it and bought his Sig when he retired.

JJ

Sig 220 in .45 is my carry weapon. Misty will be carrying a Sig P250 in. 45 as soon as we find time to. Get her renewed. Great guns.

I bought a Taurus .44 magnum wheel gun last year. Fun but loud and painful!

[ShadowBolt]

A little info on why the Texas DPS went the direction they did.

The Texas DPS had long and very successful experience with the .357 magnum cartridge in 125-grain and 140/145-grain jhp bullets for many, many years. When time came to transition the entire agency over to semi-autos from revolvers, they were in something of a quandary. They knew the sort of performance they wanted, and after a brief use of the then-recommended 147-grain 9mm load, they opted to go with the old reliable 230-grain .45 ACP in new Sig-Sauer service pistols.

They weren't satisfied with the .45 ACP, though, despite its hallowed place in the history of the Texas Rangers and other old-time border lawmen. If you'll be patient with me, I'll try to explain why.

LE agencies aren't so much interested in "killing" people as much as in "how long" a bad guy can stay on his feet and in the fight after taking a well-placed upper torso hit or two. The old timers told me that "every dead man has 10 seconds" on his feet after you shoot him. At least all too often it seemed that way. Especially in the old days when we were limited to .38 Special lead round-nose duty ammo. Even if you "kill" the guy, he can still stay on his feet and dangerous for up to 10 seconds before collapsing...and that was the minimum I was taught to expect. As you know, sometimes it's a lot longer than 10 seconds.

The drive of the research I've done over the years of my LE career was to try to find a weapon that would eliminate as many of those "10 seconds" as I could manage. The folks at the Texas DPS look at it the same way, as do other agencies and citizen defensive shooters. Among all of us, we noticed that (as far as handguns went) you needed to be using at least something on the level of a .357 magnum revolver.

When Texas DPS adopted Sig-Sauers in 230-grain .45 ACP, they found it to be a really good "killer". That is, they were killing damn near everybody they shot. My friends on LAPD, LASD and San Diego (city) PD tell me much the same about their 147-grain 9mm issue loads. They're indeed "killing" a lot of people with it.

But the Texas DPS guys weren't at ease about their .45 ACP's because the bad guys were staying on their feet and still fighting, or running away into culverts, or between houses, too often after being hit really well in the upper torso. It was taking too long for the BG's to succumb to their .45 ACP service ammo when compared to their institutional memories of the .357 magnum ammo. Again...the .45 ACP's were "killing" people. They were just letting the BG's have too many of those "dead man's 10 seconds" we spoke of.

In a meeting at the DPS academy, it was decided to test the then-new .357 Sig cartridge. After the .357 Sig guns and ammo passed the testing, the gun/ammo combo was issued to all incoming trainee academy classes. It was observed that trainee marksmanship scores went up across the board compared to what they'd been with the .45 ACP. In time, in-service officers were transitioned to the .357 Sig pistols and cartridge. Soon shooting reports started to flow in involving the .357 Sig.

My friend keeps up on officer-involved shootings all across the state involving the DPS troopers as well as other local LE agencies who are using .357 Sigs, piggy-backing off the State of Texas bid price. He tells me that with the .357 Sig in their P226 service pistols they are getting velocities of of around 1,360 fps from lots of Gold Dot ammo. One lot was high at 1,386 fps, and he recalls another of 1,344...but that's the lowest. In the field, DPS troopers are tangling with homicidal BG's and the BG's are going down conclusively within about 2 or 3 seconds of sustaining an upper chest hit or two from a DPS .357 Gold Dot bullet. This parallels the performance of the .357 magnum revolvers, and that's about as good as you can do with a handgun that an ordinary cop can pick up and shoot well.

Gotta shave off as many of those "10 seconds" as we can...and the .357 Sig seems to be doing the best job so far for Texas DPS. It has adequate penetration with the added velocity that helps to make the BG know he's been shot. We've learned it's just as important to attack your adversary's fighting mind-set with your well-placed gunfire, as it is to attack the internal structures of his body.

As you know, there are a lot of people who are taken out of a fight for psychological reasons, just as often as for internal damage from gunshot wounds. Medical people have commented often about that, saying that half or more of the time people quit the fight for psychological reason instead of physical ones. We'd be ignoring an important part of the survival dynamic if we didn't give some thought to what wrecks an attacker's fighting mind-set, also. It appears that, at least in Texas, the .357 Sig is filling the bill for a defensive handgun caliber until something better comes along.

Hope that helps.

[BlueFirePony]

Misty will be carrying a Sig P250 in. 45 as soon as we find time to. ..

Matt/Misty, I love the Sig's (still want a 229) but depending on how you plan to carry have you considered the Bersa 380? I personally think its a better carry weapon than the P250 - lighter, smaller, less recoil and found it more accurate right out of the bag w/ or w/o double tap - I've talked to several and they say at worse the 380 and 250 are equally accurate ... The 380 is half the price of a 250 though. After the large pink b-day present, not sure if $ is a concern In the end its what you are comfortable shooting.

The Bersa has some nice safety features for transport (luggage, etc.) as well. Just a thought.

[BlueFirePony]

As you know, there are a lot of people who are taken out of a fight for psychological reasons, just as often as for internal damage from gunshot wounds. Medical people have commented often about that, saying that half or more of the time people quit the fight for psychological reason instead of physical ones. We'd be ignoring an important part of the survival dynamic if we didn't give some thought to what wrecks an attacker's fighting mind-set, also. It appears that, at least in Texas, the .357 Sig is filling the bill for a defensive handgun caliber until something better comes along.

Hope that helps.

Just the sound of a 357SIG impacting 6 inches from an attacker would definately have a psychological impact and the round has the performance . In particular the 357SIG carries the lower recoil of a 9MM in a .40 casing so it has a flatter trajectory (largely relevant at distances > 20ft) with better penetration. So for LEOs it makes a ton of sense - the velocity and weight of the 357SIG also are importent to LEOS since their encounters can expand from 5-10ft to 20ft+ - not often the case for civilians (average 7-10ft).

One data point wrapped in the "10 second" gap was the survival rate on first shot hit vs first shot miss which is similar between LEOs and civilians. An FBI study indicated that survival rate for LEO's dropped from 95% if the first shot was a hit vs 45% if the first shot was a miss. The accuracy of the 357SIG improved LEO percentages over the .45 and the .357 magnum which was a similar driver for adopting 9mm in other law enforcement weapons and also the adoption of .380 for civilians in some countries (e.g. Argentina).
If you don't hit on the first 3 rounds your chance of hitting on your fourth is almost nill and if you don't hit on the first, the sound of the impact may not matter. Have a gun you can hit with your first two or three shots at 7-15 ft 100% of the time? That's the gun you use. Penetration, expansion, and psychological impact don't matter if you miss your first three shots (except negatively if you hit an unintended victim).
Slightly extended topic-hijack:
Another important data point is that the ratio of officer/assailant and civilian/assailant has been steadily increasing since the 90's with "mob" mentality quickly becoming a "norm" in the last decade - for home defense get a scatter gun.
For a carry situation you would do well to carry a close quarter instrument like mace or a knife AND for all situations take some defensive hand-to-hand training (Jui-jistu, Kempo). Kempo in particular teaches tactics for multiple attackers as early as white-belt....I had 10 years of JJ and other martial arts before I took my first Kempo instruction and I was amazed at how much I learned about assessing mental/physical state of multiple assailants and applying that from a defensive/survival posture - we all think we are bad asses but nothing replaces training when you are in a fight and your brain is scrambling for solutions.

Back to Pure Guns

[edrock96GT]

In particular the 357SIG carries the lower recoil of a 9MM...

I had a Glock 31 for a while and that thing kicked like a mule! Not as heavy a recoil as a .45 but a lot sharper. For comparison, a .45 is like putting your hand on the back of a truck as it backs up as opposed to someone punching you in the hand.
Still, not too much recoil and accurate as hell (I hit a squirrel at 25m), has the knockdown power of a .45 with the velocity and range of a 9mm from a .40 cartridge necked down to fit a .38 bullet. It's like a mini rifle.

[Wirtz]

While all the cool kids were out racing cars this past weekend, I was at the 2012 Fallen Brethren 3 Gun match, just down the road as it turns out, near Jasksboro. In fact, I got to see Wendy, Wade, and Jeff (I think) for a few minutes waiting on dinner one night.

Anyway, video is here if anyone cares to check it out. Now I just need to combine the driving fast and shooting into one event...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGlVZJoyl3I&feature=plcp

[rpoz27]

Now I just need to combine the driving fast and shooting into one event...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGlVZJoyl3I&feature=plcp

count us in! We are hooked and are doing 1 USPSA match a month and one steel shoot per month. Misty's son shot his first steel shoot last weekend at age 11!!! He did great. I'm a little scared of the the 3 gun stuff as I have heard it gets expensive.....as if racing wasn't?! LOL!

[Crumpacker]

Anyway, video is here if anyone cares to check it out. Now I just need to combine the driving fast and shooting into one event...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGlVZJoyl3I&feature=plcp

That looked crazy fun!

I've done a few USDPAs and 1 Steels match now - addicting.