Scientific evaluation of Camaro/Mustang performance parity

[rleng1]

Marshall is doing his part with his support of Celine Dion!!
I have to ask Dan, who is the lone Camaro driver on the Mustang side of the graph?

A chevy driver who drinks Ketsone Light.

[BADVENM]

At HPR yesterday Tommy "too fast" ran my Fox in warmups while I ran Ken Rockwells SN95. On Saturday Cody ran Kens car in warmups and Ken drove Codys car. Tommy runs a Firebird, Ken runs an SN95, Cody runs a 4th gen Camaro and I run a Fox Mustang.

To summarize the results Tommy loved my cars turn in (stock track length) and power and didnt like the cars ability to come out of the turn (a bit tail happy). Cody noticed a narrow power band in Kens SN95. I loved Kens cars ability to stick in the corners but didnt get used to what seemed to be a lack of punch when hitting the gas. Ken loved Codys power cause it was everywhere.

This was our first time ever in each others cars. My seat was too narrow for Tommy, Kens seat was too low for my preference, etc. Tommy ran a lap time in my car that was as fast as I had ever driven it (up until Saturday). Cody ran a time in Kens car that was within a second as fast as Ken had ever driven his car. I thought I was driving pretty fast in Kens car but was 8 seconds slower then in my own car. Ken ran a time in Codys car that was within a second or so as fast as he had driven in his own car.

So, what does that mean? I dont know. For the past few years we've discussed (in Rocky Mountain region) swapping cars with each other in warmups just to get a feel for another platform whether it be GM or Ford. I'm hoping we can continue this at the next few events.

Could Tommy run my Fox close to his Firebird times if the seat were correct and he went all out and was confortable with the car? He's usually 5 or so seconds faster then me at every event. It sounded like to me he could knock off second or two with a little more seat time and driving the car 10/10ths.

[GlennCMC70]

At HPR yesterday Tommy "too fast" ran my Fox in warmups while I ran Ken Rockwells SN95. On Saturday Cody ran Kens car in warmups and Ken drove Codys car. Tommy runs a Firebird, Ken runs an SN95, Cody runs a 4th gen Camaro and I run a Fox Mustang.

To summarize the results Tommy loved my cars turn in (stock track length) and power and didnt like the cars ability to come out of the turn (a bit tail happy). Cody noticed a narrow power band in Kens SN95. I loved Kens cars ability to stick in the corners but didnt get used to what seemed to be a lack of punch when hitting the gas. Ken loved Codys power cause it was everywhere.

This was our first time ever in each others cars. My seat was too narrow for Tommy, Kens seat was too low for my preference, etc. Tommy ran a lap time in my car that was as fast as I had ever driven it (up until Saturday). Cody ran a time in Kens car that was within a second as fast as Ken had ever driven his car. I thought I was driving pretty fast in Kens car but was 8 seconds slower then in my own car. Ken ran a time in Codys car that was within a second or so as fast as he had driven in his own car.

So, what does that mean? I dont know. For the past few years we've discussed (in Rocky Mountain region) swapping cars with each other in warmups just to get a feel for another platform whether it be GM or Ford. I'm hoping we can continue this at the next few events.

Could Tommy run my Fox close to his Firebird times if the seat were correct and he went all out and was confortable with the car? He's usually 5 or so seconds faster then me at every event. It sounded like to me he could knock off second or two with a little more seat time and driving the car 10/10ths.

golf clap.....
Good job. Didn't prove much did it though.

[michaelmosty]

Good job. Didn't prove much did it though.

I think it proved a lot.

[edrock96GT]

That first graph was photoshopped. It clearly said "Mullet length" rating. Not "Masculinity"...

[Al Fernandez]

Driving other people's cars can be enlightening, but it takes more than a session or two for your typical driver to be able to extract everything out of a car simply because of getting comfortable. I've found ammateur drivers (all of us) are almost always noticeably slower in other people's cars even when they've had plenty of time in it...simply because they dont want to damage it.

Since this thread is going I thought I'd add some more fake science to it. A little while ago, someone mentioned to me that he thought the problem with Foxes isnt that they're slower than the other cars, rather that they work the tires harder so they loose grip earlier, so by the end of the race they're done for. I ran an experiment using actual data which I've included in the attached. Many thanks to Michael Mosty, James Proctor, and Dan Allford for agreeing to let me share this with you since it is data from their cars.

The spreadsheet contains data from all of our straight up races (not the inverts) this year. Instead of lap time, there is a calculated % of best lap time in that session. So, for example, if the best lap time in that session was 2:00.00 and on lap 1 the time was 2:01.20 the calculated number is 101%. The thought being that if a car is losing performance over the course of the session, then this % would increase (more or less) each lap. By doing it using % we can more easily look at all sessions at the same time. Also, I dropped anything over 103 since that is too big a gain in time to be attributable to tires going away. Thats more like going off! lol Anyway, have a look and see what you think. I'll save my conclusions for a bit...

[GlennCMC70]

off to make some popcorn....

[BryanL]

Interesting stuff Al. Now can we see some actual performance data from different platforms, too?

This reinforces my notion that my heavier minimum weight LS1 4th Gen is at a disadvantage due to the tires falling off especially in longer races (Jerry's only hope in beating me is a 100 lap race). Very interesting how both Procter/Allford's average lap times increase by almost the exact same percentage yet Mosty's Fox lap times drop.

Now let's hear how this doesn't take into account what the best lap times actually were, the 4th Gen driver's tire pressures are wrong and they don't realize it because they are easy to drive, and that Mosty is better later in the race.

Remember-this is all just fun/games till someone separates a rib trying to run a better time on the Huffy. No doubt that comes down to being unfamilar with the platform compared to the much heavier Mongoose I rode 30 years ago.

No popcorn for me-I'm off to eat some fruits/veggies/shakes with the new lightweight D. Love!!!

[michaelmosty]

I'm posting this before I have even looked at the data Al just posted. I am a little frustrated b/c after James, Dan, and myself all gave the consent to use our data, I replied with my concern over the "purpose" of the test. I completely disagree with Al's comment below:
"A little while ago, someone mentioned to me that he thought the problem with Foxes isnt that they're slower than the other cars, rather that they work the tires harder so they loose grip earlier, so by the end of the race they're done for."

I asked Al who this "someone" was where he heard this theory b/c it is the exact opposite of what I feel. This was a couple of weeks ago and I never got a response.
I feel the Mustang is strong at the end b/c of its lighter weight. But what do I know, I'm not a director.
Sorry to bag on you Al, I just feel if we are going to be putting forth effort to analyze data that we should be focusing in the right direction.

OK, rant off, now to see what the data says.

[AllZWay]

I think I am too dumb to be able to understand the data.