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Thread: Tire changes again?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby Adam Ginsberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowBolt View Post
    Why is there a need to replace the RA1? Who is this change for.......NASA, Toyo, the racers? Ask the same questions we ask when talking about a rules change in CMC. I do like the fact thay we will not have to get them shaved. Opens up more places to purchase from.
    Unfortunately, I can't answer why there is a change being made, as I don't know the answer. I can only speculate that Toyo wants to move their product line "forward", if you will, and the RA1 might be considered "old" in terms of technology. Again, nothing more than speculation on my part.

    NASA was adament the replacement tire had to cost close to the same as an RA1 (with shaving costs included), provide similar, if not better performance (longevity, grip, wear, etc), and require minimal setup changes. They (NASA) were also adament to include NASA racers in testing the new compound to get feedback from the very people they were selling their products to.

    NASA, and Toyo, were aware folks were not always thrilled at having to shave tires to get better performance out of them. Not having to shave them will be very nice - nothing like spending ~$200 on a tire, then spending $20 to shave off ~$30 worth of rubber and throw it away.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall_mosty View Post
    What were your thoughts? Or did you sign the NDA too?
    I totally dig the RR. Excellent corner exit grip, outstanding braking grip.....AAMOF, for the first time, EVER, I was able to really use my StopTechs. As in, they were hot and stinky coming into the pits, something I'm not able to do with the RA1. I really wanted to test brake lock-up with the RR, but had to be mindfull not to flat spot them as they had to be moved to another car after my session. Even so, I really hammered the shit out of both compounds, going wayyyyy deeper into some very high-entry speed braking zones, and never got them to lock up.

    For example - T2 at BW, called the Buttonhook IIRC (Race #13, running CW) is a sharp right that has camber on the far inside, is slightly uphill, but as you exit, it flattens out/is slightly off camber. Coming out of that turn, I've always had to feather the throttle, and provide some additional steering input because I can't put ALL the power down. Never could. Most CMC and AI cars can't. If you do, you'll spin the inside tire, and/or come out way too loose.

    Ah.....yeah, forget that with the RR. Brake hard, turn in, get over the slight hump in the track, and go balls deep into the throttle, plenty of grip, upshift, WOT all the way to the braking zone of T3. Getting through the bus-stop, then the fast, high-speed right sweeper? Ooooo, yeah.

    They came up to temp about the same time RA1's do (within ~2-3 laps), were very consistent throughout the session, and never felt like they dropped off. My fastest laps came at the end of each session, although it's entirely possible much of that had to do with the fact that I was able to "figure out" the tire, recognizing where it was working well, and able to take advantage of it. Usually, my car drops off in lap times the warmer ambient temperature gets. Not with the RR's.

    I even told NASA, and the Toyo engineers, that I'd fun run CMC the entire rest of this season (we did the test in June) if I could get a set of the RR's and run them for the remainder of the year. Yeah, I liked 'em that much.

    I'm going to hang out on a limb here.....my guess is we'll see a ~1-2 second per lap drop in times/track records, maybe more once people really learn the tire, and make changes. Only time will tell.....I'm may be completely wrong (wouldn't be the first time, and likely won't be the last).

  2. #22
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby AllZWay's Avatar
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    I like the no shaving and glad to hear at least some testing has been done. I am leary of a faster tire equating to a longer lasting tire though.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Grass-Passer Wirtz's Avatar
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    Not sure I really feel like getting into this discussion but thinking a bit out loud;
    More grip. Personally, not interested. I've run many series where the tires were more grippy than needed for the car / power level. It masks alot of driving issues and car setup differences. I'm not saying these tires will instamatic make every CMC car self driving. But I like having to work the brakes and steering to get a good lap. To me, lower grip and more forgiving can make for much more fun. But I guess I should shut up about it. I'm the one that always wished there was a good rally series in Texas...

    You said you had to warm the tires for 2 or 3 laps. Were any tests done with our actual race routine? Stone cold tires, 1 outlap and then into race pace or even a standing start? How do the tires behave when they are shocked?

    Good thing is as long as everyone is on the same tires, it is not as a big deal. No mater what tire it is, I still hope to be back out there playing again at some point.

    Jeff

  4. #24
    Senior Member Site AdminCarroll Shelby michaelmosty's Avatar
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    More grip = more strain on the car = more wear + tear.

    Why do we need more grip in a spec series?

    Also, from what Adam said they help quite a bit under braking. With RA1's the 4-piston calipers don't give "that much" advantage b/c we are still at the limits of the tire. If we go to a better tire then that just makes the Big Brake Kits help even more and then drive the cost of the series up even more.
    -Michael Mosty
    CMC #11 Mosty Brothers' Racing
    Director - TX Region

  5. #25
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby ShadowBolt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wirtz View Post
    Not sure I really feel like getting into this discussion but thinking a bit out loud;
    More grip. Personally, not interested. I've run many series where the tires were more grippy than needed for the car / power level. It masks alot of driving issues and car setup differences. I'm not saying these tires will instamatic make every CMC car self driving. But I like having to work the brakes and steering to get a good lap. To me, lower grip and more forgiving can make for much more fun. But I guess I should shut up about it. I'm the one that always wished there was a good rally series in Texas...

    You said you had to warm the tires for 2 or 3 laps. Were any tests done with our actual race routine? Stone cold tires, 1 outlap and then into race pace or even a standing start? How do the tires behave when they are shocked?

    Good thing is as long as everyone is on the same tires, it is not as a big deal. No mater what tire it is, I still hope to be back out there playing again at some point.

    Jeff
    Hi Jeff,

    I think you and James have some good points. A tire that has more grip and last longer sounds like a car with more power being quicker and getting better mileage. Possible, but hard to pull off.

    I agree with liking a harder tire that is a drivers tire. My favorite Nascar races are the ones where the tire falls off in just a few laps and you find out who can really drive. Like at the old Southern 500 races. I still like the idea of running a street tire that would last all season and would require driver skill (yes, even if that puts me further back in the pack). I guess with the money NASA gets from Toyo that is not going to happen. My tire ideas are all about getting more people into CMC. Cutting the tire bill is one way of doing it.


    JJ

  6. #26
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby ShadowBolt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelmosty View Post
    More grip = more strain on the car = more wear + tear.

    Why do we need more grip in a spec series?

    Also, from what Adam said they help quite a bit under braking. With RA1's the 4-piston calipers don't give "that much" advantage b/c we are still at the limits of the tire. If we go to a better tire then that just makes the Big Brake Kits help even more and then drive the cost of the series up even more.
    So now we all need to spend $2500.00 just to keep the status quo?

    JJ

  7. #27
    Senior Member Site AdminCarroll Shelby michaelmosty's Avatar
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    I just read the treadwear rating is a 40.
    I'm no tire expert but if the RA1 has a rating of 100, how is a treadwear of 40 going to last equal to or longer?
    -Michael Mosty
    CMC #11 Mosty Brothers' Racing
    Director - TX Region

  8. #28
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby marshall_mosty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelmosty View Post
    I just read the treadwear rating is a 40.
    I'm no tire expert but if the RA1 has a rating of 100, how is a treadwear of 40 going to last equal to or longer?
    More rubber around the carcass that you don't shave away (9/32 tread depth to 5/32 that we normally have) = 55% of original depth. That is treadwear 100. If the RR's are molded to 9/32 carcass depth with a treadwear of 40, you will get approx 70% of the life of a full tread RR to a 5/32" RA1... However, I have no clue if the wear rate on the RA1 is linear when the tread blocks are above say 2-3/32"... That "might" even it out. Also, I guessed on the depth of 9/32"..


    Just stupid numbers anyway... It's all moot until something in the rules changes... For AI, there has be ZERO chatter...
    Marshall Mosty
    AI/SI Texas Regional Director
    2011 NASA-TX American Iron Champ
    AI #67 "Mosty Brothers' Racing" (RIP)
    ST6 #21 Toyota Corolla (being revived)...

  9. #29
    Senior Member Site AdminCarroll Shelby michaelmosty's Avatar
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    I read on the AI boards that Toyo states depth to be 4/32".
    -Michael Mosty
    CMC #11 Mosty Brothers' Racing
    Director - TX Region

  10. #30
    Senior Member Grass-Passer Wirtz's Avatar
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    Molded at 4/32 sounds good, like has been said, nice to not have to shave them. But I wonder what the plan is for rains then. Two radial tread bands and 4/32" means not so good in the rain. Saw someone mentioned the RA1 can still be used for a rain, but does that mean Toyo will continue to offer the RA1 long term as a rain tire? Not like we have been dealing with alot of rain lately...

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