Tire Issues

[smitty328]

Couple of HSO's to throw out.

You Dallas people and your HSO's...

Turn on the Fan.

[AllZWay]

It is not a matter of affording the tires sometimes...... but the wanting to afford the tires. The cost of racing continues to grow as the rules change and the tires are just one more aspect of the continued costs...that could be contained if Toyo would stop screwing us on the tire.

No one was complaining about the original RA1...why did they change? To screw us out of more money.

[ShadowBolt]

Couple of HSO's to throw out.

People are so upset with Toyo but want to buy a Nitto-they are the same company. I think you have to look at why they sponsor with NASA and why they make a certain tire. They are a business and have a goal in mind. I don't believe that goal is to make a tire that doesn't last so they can sell more race tires. Now maybe they are trying to make a tire that is faster as that is what the larger racing market wants. I'm sure they are aware of their competition and what kind of product Hoosier, BFG, etc put out. Would they sell more of a tire if it was 1 second slower than a Hoosier or 5 seconds slower than a Hoosier? Would they want to sponsor a class that doesn't run a fast tire? (Think back to why Ford didn't want the S197 detuned so much that a 79 Mustang/82 Camaro was beating it on track) Is their NASA sponsorship just part of their overall marketing/advertising budget and should they even care about CMC? If I'm working at TOYO I'm pretty certain CMC would never even be a reason to make any sort of decision.

Just using some simple swag math pertaining to CMC. I'm pretty sure there are less than 50 total CMC cars racing around a full season. If each racer buys 2 sets of tires per season that is 400 tires they sell in a year. If we assume that they sell the tire to the distributors less shipping of $200 per tire. A 20% profit margin means they make $40 per tire. $40 times 400 comes out to a whopping $16,000 in profit. Say each racer buys 4 sets for a season they ring the register for $32,000!!!! But wait-they have contingency's to pay out. They payout around $1,350 per Texas race weekend-likely less in other regions with less cars. But I'll guess 6 weekends in only 3 regions is $24,300. Then you have regional champ prize money and Nat. prize money of around $7,000. Gets pretty close to breakeven. Though I haven't a clue about how much they pay NASA HQ to sponsor everything nor what percentage might be attributable to CMC. I'm also not in the tire business so I may not have a clue about their true numbers. But I think I can still figure out that with the number of CMC racers and the amount of tires they purchase that it certainly doesn't warrant any resources or time being allocated from a corporate level for something that there is no way they could even make $50k.

So what do we do. Well this is America so you can do whatever you want. I'll still be going to the track, racing, hanging out and having a great time is what I hope to do. I'm all in for agreeing to run a different tire with the hope that it would actually last longer yet still make the car fun to drive and the racing just as fun. I will hate that someone isn't able to race because of the tire budget but there are so many more variables to consider when determining that "budget" from per race weekend entry/fuel/tire/carnage, car purchase, equipment/tool purchase, tow vehicle, trailer, etc. etc. to buying a boat, plane, kart, bike, rv, jeep, kids college or whatever that it really isn't the biggest reason why someone doesn't race. It just so happens that the tire budget isn't way off from what it costs for your yearly entry fees, or your yearly gas, or your yearly consumables/carnage, etc. Realize I have a new perspective on this whole shebang after having a car totaled. Which leads me to another thought in my head is that if you can't afford the tire budget, then you probably shouldn't be racing at all. Unfortunately because one should be ready to stomach totaling your car or being able to help someone if you tear up their car.

I"m sorry if I ruffled anyones feathers or anything. If we want to give a new tire a try let me know which one gets the most votes and I'll buy a set to run at TWS and ECR with Friday practices hopefully and see how it stands up for heat cycles. I would love to find anyway that would help lower the cost for everyone. Otherwise I'll either order a set of RA1's or just finish the year on old junk tires. I do worry that we really don't have any apples to apples comparison's for any of the other tires to see if they can really hold up to say 3 race weekends with 25 heat cycles. I have no problem gridding as an AIX car on whatever tire it is -whether I'm the only car in AIX or if all 20 CMC cars decide to run AIX on xyz tire.

My problem is not just the price of the tires it's how fast they heat cycle out. I put on a brand new set of RR's for the first race at Hallett. So five heat cycles on that set. Are they a second slower now? Some say yes. I disagree with you on this BL. I do not want to have to purchase a new set of tires every race weekend. Can I? Sure, but how many people will feel like Mike does right now? Maybe what I am hoping for is not possible. I wish we had a tire that you could run two sets in a six race weekend season and not be giving up anything. Maybe it can't be done. I would settle for the RA1 we had prior to the RR if that is the best we can get. You say "if you can't afford the tire bill maybe you should not be racing". How much of a Tire bill? How many in CMC would be willing to buy a new set of RR's every race weekend? I'm guessing very few.....I guess maybe they should not be racing?

JJ

[BryanL]

I agree with you James and Jerry-Richard pointed this out that it's not the wear- it's about the degradation after 5 heat cycles. I certainly may not come across the way my mind thinks on paper as writing was always my worst subject. I know Jerry, James and I all feel the same way about the overall cost of the racing and things such as brakes, shocks, etc. I thought about this as I'm going to be taking my shocks off this weekend. I would love the limit on shocks to be half what it is now and now 4 piston brakes-though neither are needed to win and they both can be justified especially the brakes over many season's of racing and if your original car comes with sorry brakes-LT'1.

When I started I think I did a full season on one set of RA1's-I would like to get back to something similar to that or at least only two sets for a season. I have only bought 4 tires this year and don't want to buy anymore. I'm not interested in nor do I want something that you have to show up with a new set for every race. That's why I'm here and not in other classes. Others have joined our group because of this very problem with other classes like Time trial, spec pinata etc. I know there are others that can certainly afford whatever series they choose to run yet they want the same things I want and choose CMC.

Jerry brings up a good point about what is a reasonable tire budget. Well everyone will have a different answer depending on how much they want to spend, can spend, and how bad they want to win. I want under $1k per year which is how it was when I started yet I'm not sure that is possible. If our class because of the RR becomes one that you have to run a new tire every weekend then it will certainly impact some racers. I'll probably be fine to stay on my old tires and stay in the mid pack like in the past. Though even before the RR it always seemed I would see the trophy girls putting on fresh rubber for the money races or especially the final at hallett. I think people are fine to race without new tires even if it's needed to be on the podium. That has happened in our class in the past and goes on in other classes. Now whether they should or shouldn't because they can't afford tires is up to them.

I'm merely pointing out that we need to realize what the alternatives are before we really become a squeaky wheel. I believe a squeaky wheel either gets the grease or it gets replaced-I fear getting replaced more than anything. So, before we go raise hell maybe we should have something to present as an alternative. We haven't been happy with what they have brought to us so why would we expect something different or expect them to find a solution? Maybe we need to find the solution? I'm not saying I'm right but just trying to be the devils advocate.

[michaelmosty]

I think we can all say the RA1 of the mid 2000's was the best and will never be available again.

I also feel that the RA1 from around 2008-current is still a good tire. I have always bought my RA1's at either 5/32's (if I was doing a practice day to wear them down) or a "thick" 4/32 if not practicing. I flip my tires after every event and have been fortunate to always get at least 3 events out of a set of tires. I truly feel that b/w heat cycle 10-15 the tire is still just as fast as when new. Even during the 3rd event (heat cycle 15-20) they are still very good and at maybe only fall off 1/2 a second.
I'm not saying the RA1 is the best solution going forward, but for what is available to us it seems much better than the RR.

I agreem with what Bryan says, I would doubt CMC comes into the discussion when Toyo is determining how to make their new fancy tire.

[Suck fumes]

A bunch of us should enter AIX and try the Maxxis tires. The winner gets two tires and if you win both days that's a whole set for free! $1k worth of tires.

Plus 2nd and 3rd get one free tire as well as long as there are 5 starters.

[Storm Trooper]

Just a thought.
What I'm concerned about that this is a precursor to a two race weekends. Less heat cycles on the tires! I can't run a 45 minute race with my gas tank that would force me to go to a fuel-cell. Ugh!!!

[MikeP99Z]

The Maxxis review that Ken posted was a nice read. I'd be interested in reality on a race car at race pace for performance/degradation. Buy me a set Aaron, and I'll try them =) I'm done buying tires for the year lol (except for the truck, dammit).

[Suck fumes]

Yah I'm done racing for the year too haha. My new budget is for diapers!

[Supercharged111]

seems like a decent spec tire to me
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...-review.aspx?3

I read that, but really question how hard he pushes his car. Sure, he has 9 years track experience but how many short runs did he make before he sorted out his cooling system? There've been some growing pains with that car illustrated in some of his previous articles so I wouldn't place too much stock in that tire's durability based off of that article. I would still remain curious. This is the first long term R compound test I've seen them run.