At what point did you approach professional coaching? My biggest fear is being too dumb to utilize it.Originally Posted by dtanker65
At what point did you approach professional coaching? My biggest fear is being too dumb to utilize it.
RM CMC Director
First off, you don't know what you're talking about. In 2010 Jerry Jordan and myself offered to pay for track time, provide the cars, drivers, and data acquisition equipment from our own pockets to obtain data to either prove our point or shut us the hell up. Nobody, including management at the time would even acknowledge the Mustang complaint was anything outside of car prep and bad drivers so we couldn't get cooperation or buy in to organize the testing. Frustrated, I was done so I offered my car free of charge to the leading CMC 4th Gen driver at the time for a full season. Declined!!! Was afraid he wouldn't do well and would look bad. (His words, not mine.) Then tried to purchase a 4th Gen for Mosty to drive for a full season but Al and I couldn't agree on $$$. So Mr. BryanL, don't try to trivialize the complaints from back in the day as if you asking for data acquisition is some noble idea because Jerry and I were shot down at every turn. (haha, see what I did there...) Your posturing comment is either truly disingenuous or short sited.
What I find interesting is that nobody, yourself included, is acknowledging that the 2013 changes were based on data acquisition from Mosty and Proctor. The data was examined by all directors with consensus given to make changes appropriately. So you want data, have Al email it to you. Instead of acting as though you were somehow slighted in 2013 and performing the same testing is going prove your point.
You started this bitchfest over 2016 wins, or lack there of for the GM. So honestly answer this. Which GM car in 2016 would have changed the results with 50 lbs less and an additional .75"? You? Dan? Let me give you some data points:
2012 -
Pnts Ran Ave Fin Poles Wins
1 James ProCtor 24 2.0 4 10
2 Daniel AllFord 24 3.0 5 8
3 MiChael Mosty 20 2.4 1 5
11 Glenn Landrum 12 5.7 1
16 Cody Powell 8 4.9 1
20 Derek Wright 4 4.3 1
James and Dan ran equally well. Michael had fewer wins but finish ahead of Dan on average. GM took 19 wins to the Ford's 5 wins. Data acquisition showed a change was necessary.
2013 - New rules in affect.
Pnts Pos Ran Ave Fin Poles Wins
1 Michael Mosty 26 2.3 10
2 James ProCtor 23 3.1 3 4
3 Team Jordan 27 4.7 2
13 Glenn Landrum 12 5.3 1 3
15 Daniel AllFord 12 5.8 4
16 Bryan Curtis 8 2.6 2 2
17 Morgan Dawdy 8 6.9 1
20 Aaron MCSpad 7 3.9 3
22 Derek Wright 4 2.0 2 2
26 Bob Denton 3 5.7 1
Michael clearly wins the most races and has the strongest average finish. However the totals are 15 wins Ford to 14 wins GM. Pretty damn even wouldn't you say? 4 separate 4th gens turned in multiple wins so claiming that the changes hurt them is simple BS. Not to mention, the GM's took EVERY SINGLE POLE in 2013.
2014 - No rule change
Pnts Pos Ran Ave Fin Poles Wins
1 MiChael Mosty 19 3.5 5 6
2 Team Jordan 24 4.9 2
3 Daniel AllFord 22 4.9 3 3
4 Tyler Gardner 20 6.3 1
5 Craig MCCormi 19 6.9 3
12 Glenn Landrum 14 5.7 2 3
15 Kevin Jander 8 5.1 1 1
18 Sammy MCSpa 6 3.5 1
20 Team Purple Fl 4 3.3 1
21 Bryan Curtis 4 3.3 1
23 Sam CrumpaCk 4 11.0 1
Mosty wins again. The wins are 15 Ford and 8 GM. Why? Well Proctor left and Wright didn't return either. To fill that void Tyler showed up and Craig brought his performance up form his previous mid-pack season to both capture an equal number of wins vacated by James and Derek. Poles happened to end up 6 Ford to 5 GM. GM lost 2 A-Game drivers and Ford added 2 A-Game drivers while the rules remained unchanged. Still seems pretty even here too.
2015 - 3rd year with same rules.
Pnts Pos Ran Ave Fin Poles Wins
1 MiChael Mosty 22 4.2 3 7
2 Craig MCCormi 24 3.8 1 2
3 Daniel AllFord 20 4.7 1
4 Gary Robertson 24 8.4 1
7 John Martin 17 8.0 1
8 Bryan Leinart 16 8.9 1
9 Tyler Gardner 16 4.1 1 2
10 David FranCis 17 5.3 3
15 Kevin Jander 8 7.5 1 1
16 Sam CrumpaC 6 10.7 1
17 Aaron MCSpad 4 1.0 4 4
28 Derek Wright 4 5.3 1
Mosty wins again. The wins are 18 Ford and 8 GM. Why? Glenn left taking his average 3 wins with him and Dan didn't turn in his normal performances however he did turn in the GM's only pole of the season. Also Aaron showed up with his "clock cleaner" to tip the scales. GM lost another A-Game driver while Dan had an off season and Ford gained another A-Game driver. Certainly lop-sided but only do to talent exiting/entering the region, not rules changes.
2016 - 4th year with same rules.
Pnts Pos Ran Ave Fin Poles Wins
1 Tyler Gardner 23 3.4 5 8
2 Craig MCCormi 19 4.2 3 6
3 Gary Robertson 19 7.2 1
4 MiChael Mosty 20 4.8 2
6 Daniel AllFord 20 5.1 1
9 David FranCis 19 7.6 2
14 Kevin Jander 10 4.5 2 2
16 Aaron MCSpa 4 2.8 1 2
Tyler picked it up big time over the 2 previous years running the same rules, PERIOD! Totally a dismal year for the GM's but once again Derek Wright didn't return and Dan had a second off season leaving no A-game GM drivers to tow the line. 4 total wins shared by Gary, Dan, and David. Not to insult anyone's ability but Dan is currently the only TX region GM driver who has shown the ability to turn A-game performances since the rules were changed in 2013 yet he hasn't done that since 2014.
The bottom line here is that NO (read NONE, ZERO, NADA) GM showed up in 2016 capable of stopping the current crop of Fords. Current rules have nothing to do with this simple fact.
And although you may think it shocking Bryan, giving Dan a Data Collection Pass would help some people STFU because 50 lbs sure as hell isn't going to fix whatever is wrong with his performance over the past 2 seasons. Furthermore, most of the GM's aren't beating Jerry Jordan who runs 80 lbs heavy so that he doesn't have to add weight for Jay. Chew on that for a minute!
So pick up the phone and get shit straight next time you want to share what you think my motives might be while accusing others of posturing when a simple analysis of race results serves to disprove your point to begin with. (817) 703-1475
Boudy
I didnt drive the fox all those years ago because there was no winning that deal.
I did well in a 4th gen because I have been driving one for many many years. I DE'ed one for 5 years and then raced another for 6 or 7 more before this was offered to me. If I didn't do well in a new platform that I knew nothing about with a single year to figure it out, all the Ford guys would say "I told you so."
Still wish you would have done it. I can't see it taking over a weekend to get used to a different car (once the set-up was to your liking). It would take longer to get the set-up the way you want it than it to get used to it because it is a Mustang and you were used to driving a Camaro.
JJ
That same can be said today. Let put a fox driver in a 4th gen and watch those track records drop like flies........
Craig validates what the GM folks have said way back in 2010 - about tbe fox not developed. Look @ where his car is now.
As far as me getting back and running up front........ I don't think that will happen. Me drive to win is not there like it was before. I am also not willing to put cubic dollars into it anymore.
I have been told that to be considered having maxed my platform, I need to do a 5 speed conversion, add a fuel cell and 2 piece rear rotors with aluminum hats along with expensive 17x9.5 inch wheels.
I can duplicate my whole current setup for that cost. The series has evolved beyond what I got into it for back in 2005. Back then it was keep it stock and learn to drive. Now it is max the rulebook and hope you can drive better than the next guy.
The sad reality is I have spent more time thinking about where I can race my current car than bringing it back to CMC. The LS conversion is on the table too as I have a 5.3 already.
Call Liebbe, have a conversation, get back to us. Take any previous top GM driver and put him back on the track, the result won't be so lop-sided as in 2016. You averaged 3 wins running partial seasons with these rules Glenn. It's not the rules, there are currently no GM drivers outside of Dan who has proven he can win Qual Races, period. Dan hasn't outrun "Heavy Jerry" for 2 years so how can it be the rules that have been in place for 4 years.
Craig's running the same or strikingly similar setup to mine, Mosty has since changed his. No? Craig also had a new set of tires EVERY event. Tyler is running a completely different setup from Craig so now you're implying that these 2 guys magically found 2 completely different setups from each other that everyone else missed? Bullshit, they both came in each copied one of the 2 popular setups. You can write on a napkin everything needed to make either platform go fast. There's very little development left or even to begin with in these cars so give credit where it's due, those 2 guys are driving there asses off.
The rest of your post we pretty much agree on. I'm only returning because I have a car already and I'll be sharing it with a driving coach.
Boudy
Right from the start for me. When I was a kid I thought I could teach myself to race motocross by reading every book on the subject, without much success. I promised myself then that if I ever tried racing again I would get training.
Starting out, having the coach in the right seat worked well because I was not a natural. Once I was driving at the club level, the right seat wasn't as useful except to identify something grossly wrong. The extra weight in the right seat throws the cross weight off. The better I get the more subtle the coaching benefits are.
Dan has beaten Fat ass Jerry more than I have beat him but Dan's old car had something bad wrong that they chased for over a year. I will agree that Dan in the new car is not running away from the 55 anymore but I don't know that the extra weight is the issue (I don't know that it isn't either).
JJ
Yeah, me too. Part of it is not wanting to damage the car and another very big part is the current tire. I've experienced the thrill of a fresh set of RR's and the agony of defeat 5 heat cycles later. I will admit that I have done nothing to tune the car to the new tires but my car is balanced and predictable on both the RR and RA1 tires. Crumpacker made some amazing moves on me at TWS, on sticker RR's. Michael Mosty does amazing on fresh RR's but has said that he runs slower on cycled out RR's and accepts and manages this based on his chosen racing budget. this . Every time I turn around, there are fresh tires on Craig's car. Pedersen said earlier in this thread that they don't let Dan put too many cycles on RR's because they wouldn't have anything to run in DE's. I'll call a friendly bit of bullshit on that statement as I think Dan is a fairly competitive person and prefers fresher tires, I know I would. And here is my point about the tires, they are too costly to run and stay at the front consistently. McSpadden managed to do it by winning all the time and subsidizing with Toyo bucks and selling his cycled tires. That's great for those who can do it which seems to be against the grassroots and "low" budget form of racing that we all signed up for. With the RR it has become "spend to win". I could probably afford to put new tires on the car for every event, but then I might not be able to make every event due to the increased tire budget. (I know I'm am part-timer anyway) BRING BACK A REASONABLE TIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WE NEED A DIFFERENT AND MORE CONSISTENT TIRE. And I know several of you have expressed interest in this as well.
Oh and while you are analyzing all the data, did you include the number of heat cycles in your analysis?
As for Camaro v Mustang. I feel they can both be driven well and fast within the rules but the driving styles are different. For me I like a car that is balanced and easy to drive and I have personally built and tuned a Fox, an SN95, and an LTI 4th Gen Camaro to do this. None of those cars with me driving were trophy queens. The Fox ran at the back of the "front" pack with 5 seasons a fair amount of development and a younger more dedicated driver. The 4th gen Camaro ran in the front of the mid pack within one season after taking that car from a horrible car to a good car with good prep work and some tuning. The SN95 is a fresh "copy" of the Fox with not much racing time under its belt and more development needed for both the car and the now older less dedicated driver.
Isn't this fun!!!! At least that's what I am in it for. And that is also a factor that each and every one of us has to decide for ourselves. We have to decide, within whatever the current rules are, what our goals are within the realm of highly competitive to less competitive. I think we are all competitive to a degree, some more than others. Each of us can decide how much we want to put into it with regards to time, expense, balance the rest of your life, etc. for how far up the race results you want to be. It is unfortunate that the current tire also introduces a significant spending factor.
Sorry for the long post...flame on.
Last edited by Rob Liebbe; 10-28-2016 at 09:59 AM.
Rob Liebbe - Texas Region
Camaro, Mustang, doesn't matter to me, I'll race it.
Well said Mr. Liebbe. However, NASA and Toyo have vested interests in how much we spend on tires. I wish it could be different.
Boudy
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