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Thread: Texas Mustang Challenge Review 2016/2015

  1. #31
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby
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    Cool, I'm in the same boat as you. I could've gone minimalist but I like having the coolsuit, fire system+handheld and beefy door bars + cage-mounted seat. I also DID NOT trim my front bumper beam as is common/recommended, because I want that full crash element to be intact.

    I don't have subframe connectors (yet) but will consider them next year once I get this thing weighed+ballasted post swap; I think they would weigh less than what I plan to ballast and still be able to hug 3300.

    Have you guys considered using Holley Hydramat so you can run less fuel without start?

  2. #32
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby RichardP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AI#97 View Post
    Richard, you obviously missed the part where I credited you and Dan for doing your homework so go piss on your own leg. As for "offensive for club racing", try running in Super touring where the top dog is going out on fresh Hoosiers every day and has a $350k Doug Rippie world challenge car with a $30k sequential transmission in it. It's racing and someone will always outspend you. Be Wiley and beat them while spending less or being a better driver.

    As has been stated, the Camaro dominated in the past. Sadly, those three drivers haven't raced in a while. If they had, I bet the mustang might not look so good.

    I didn't miss where you mentioned Dan and I. But you also said "ZERO" (IN ALL CAPS). That would include our car.

    Also, we have no desire to try a class with worse tire rules than CMC. The fact that you signed up for rules like that, especially in a car that works fine in a class without that, is not relevant to the discussion at hand. I understand why a class like that appeals to you. If you beat those expensive and exotic cars, you look like a hero. If you don't, well of course not, your in a Mustang. Your inflated but fragile ego can't take the possibility that racing like for like might show the rest of the world you aren't what you boast that you are.

    I don't see how you having a Mustang and a Camaro in your garage gives you any basis to speak intelligently about CMC. Your Mustang hasn't touched a funny angled rear upper control arm or a stock geometry k-member in literally over a decade. Did your car even ever touch a racetrack with those parts still installed? By the time you got your hands on the Camaro, it was well past CMC.

    I tracked my Mustang with a stock k-member (and 4-lug 11" brakes). I also went through the stock bushing four link, modified bushing four link, four link with a panhard, and a poor man's three link on my car. Those setups were all more than a decade ago. I don't claim to be able to set up a competitive CMC Mustang because those setups all sucked so bad I didn't want to try and maximize the tune for them. I moved onto a much better, and very CMC illegal, setup that I really do like.

    Beyond your claims of technical knowledge and ability, you haven't provided anything technical. You have just stated your opinion that all of the current Camaro drivers suck. This, for a class and group that you don't even run in???


    I liked it much better when you were banned...


    Richard P.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby RichardP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trublu View Post
    Loose is not fast despite what Ricky Bobby might say. I've not seen a Camaro that isn't...
    I agree with loose is not fast and Dan doesn't like a loose car. Both the Silver and the Red car suffered from oversteer when we got to TWS this past event and I'm not sure why? Neither were like that the last time we were there. The current softer setup seems to have balance changes not only with different tracks but different grip levels at the same tracks. We didn't have that with the older stiffer setup.

    The silver car is running 800 lb/in front springs. The Orange car is at 750. Between the two cars, we have 200, 225, 250, and 275 rear springs available to balance those out with. That's in addition to the 1100/1000 front, 300 rear setup we were running on Orange previously. We also have multiple different front and rear sway bar (and no rear bar) setups available to tune balance. All spring and sway bar sizes in our stock have been tried on one car or another. We have gotten pretty fast at changing rear springs and sway bars at the track. We have mixed and matched bar and spring setups to try to balance the car while fighting with being able to put power down. The new car has also been more receptive to rear track width changes with the softer setup with other side effects that Chris never reported when we did track width testing on my car.

    At TWS, the Red car took the smaller rear sway bar out of the trailer (along with some other changes) while the Silver car ended up swapping rear sway bars with another car after other changes weren't as effective as Dan would have liked. We ended up at yet another different rear sway bar size that was not yet in our toy box and the car worked much better.


    Richard P.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby RichardP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllZWay View Post
    I am not coming back anytime soon
    We're still bummed by that. We would love it if you came out to watch and visit...


    Richard P.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby RichardP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pranav View Post
    Have you guys considered using Holley Hydramat so you can run less fuel without start?

    We haven't really gotten to the point of working the details of fuel starvation yet. The new tank seems to be pretty good in that regard. We have an annoying problem where the available fuel senders for the fuel cell we are running are either too long or too short. The long one bottoms out before it can be bolted up. The short one leaves a few gallons in the bottom of the tank that we can't measure. It's really hard to know what your weight is when you don't have a good handle on remaining fuel. I'm going to be really annoyed if we have to go back to a dipstick when we have that fancy and expensive digital data acquisition system...

    Richard P.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby GlennCMC70's Avatar
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    Perhaps a few well placed dents in the OEM tank will reduce fuel capacity and prevent fuel starvation with a lighter fuel load.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby AllZWay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardP View Post
    We're still bummed by that. We would love it if you came out to watch and visit...


    Richard P.

    I still want to come out and watch, but the kids sports schedule just hasn't aligned very well. Sadly.. I also lose track of the yearly schedule. Do yall not race ECR anymore?

  8. #38
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby Fbody383's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllZWay View Post
    Do yall not race ECR anymore?
    No; not sure anyone races ECR anymore. That track is one few U-turn and 3,427 bumps away from really cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by RocketScientist
    It's really hard to know what your weight is when you don't have a good handle on remaining fuel.
    Come on now, work it from the other end. We start with a full tank and Scott can almost always tell me +/- 5lbs. what the car weighs when I come off track based on the length of the session and yellows, etc.
    #39 CMC Camaro
    Orange is Fast!
    CMC-NT01 FTW!

  9. #39
    Senior Member Grass-Passer rleng1's Avatar
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    Rob just liked the cup holder and radio in my Camaro.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowBolt View Post
    Tyler,

    I wish you had some times in Paul's car that you could share. I'm not smart enough to know how much difference there would be in a Fox (or SN95, SN99) and a fourth gen but the Mustang for sure has a less sophisticated suspension. You could not find a soul that would rather have the Mustang suspension over a fourth gen. so I still believe the Mustang deserves some kind of help. How much help I have no idea. If you can go out and run faster lap times in Paul's heavier car then that would kind of prove the point. Rob has driven both and he says the Camaro is "easier" to drive but easier does not necessarily mean faster. Maybe the difference is so little that we can't use hundreds of lbs. to make things evan. I would be willing to let my Trackmate be used to see if there is really a difference and how much of a difference.


    JJ
    Randy English
    NASA Texas --> Rocky Mtn Region
    CMC #77 Camaro

  10. #40
    So... all very interesting reading and I appreciate everyone voicing their thoughts. Last time we changed CMC rules about platform parity was for the 2013 season. We took track width away (0.75") from the GM camp and added weight (50lbs) to the GMs as well. I hated adding weight to the GM cars over taking weight off of the Mustangs but back then many GM drivers couldn't make minimum weight so it made things better.

    The discussions then were almost exactly like the discussions in this and the other thread...except the platforms were swapped. At the time we did what I consider to be a fair job of trying to use data to help including lap times, number of wins, number of fastest laps, and even theoretical best laps using data loggers. We rationalized needing to make changes, and we did.

    Four racing seasons later, we certainly don't have Camaro Camaro Challenge as many in 2011 said we were headed to. Instead, in Texas, we've had a ford win the series four years in a row, and have plenty of fast cars running foxes, SN95s, SN99s, as well as GMs. I'd say the rules changes worked. Perhaps they worked too well, perhaps not and that is why I purposely started encouraging discussion about platform parity that have essentially been dormant for a long time. The reality is we've never made an attempt to reconcile if we had gone too far, not far enough, or hit the target square in the bullseye. As I explained to the rest of the directors, I'm not in a particular hurry to make a change, but I do want to continue discussion and spend time gathering data and analyzing it to see if a change is warranted.
    Al Fernandez

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