Mixed Group Racing - The Future of AI/SI/CMC/XX

[Fbody383]

Having participated in every single 25 Hour and growing up in NASA's home region where literally every single race group is a mixed class group, I think it's a very fun dynamic of amateur racing that you can choose to either love or hate, either way you'll get both the good and the bad dealings from time to time. Sometimes you benefit from a pick maneuver, sometimes you lose a position from someone else setting up a pick, and every once in a while the pick takes out all 3 cars. This happens even with only one class on track. It's all about being able to have the conversation with the driver's creating an inappropriate challenge, or addressing it with a NASA official at the event so we can get the driver conduct issue corrected to minimize the bad that comes with mixed group racing.

Rather than muck up the Jordan Motorsports MSRC Winning thread...

We've had similar issues before within AI/CMC - i.e. that some AI guys have had "difficulty" accepting a pass from a CMC car that just ran them down.

I don't have enough experience to know what to demand from the RD in these cases. Clearly we'll continue to address the expectations in the driver's meetings. So, is there an obligation for an out of class car to yield to an overtaking car?

Passing and Body Contact - In a passing situation both drivers must share the road and must not make moves to impeded a pass. This does not alleviate the responsibility of the overtaking driver as referenced in section 25.4.1 of the CCR.

25.4.1 Passing General
The responsibility for the decision to pass another car, and to do it safely, rests with the overtaking driver. The overtaken driver should be aware that he/she is being passed and must not impede the pass by blocking. A driver who does not watch his/her mirrors or who appears to be blocking another car seeking a pass may be penalized. The act of passing is initiated when the trailing car’s (Car A) front bumper overlaps with the lead car’s (Car B) rear bumper. The act of passing is complete when Car A’s rear bumper is ahead of Car B’s front bumper. “NO PASSING” means a pass cannot even be initiated. Any overlap in a NO PASSING area is considered illegal.

So there may not be an affirmative obligation for an out of class car to yield, there is clearly an obligation to be aware.

If we expect to have group assignees/visitors at Hallett, we will all be better off having clear behavioral expectations ahead of time.

Discuss/agree/disagree to your heart's content.

[Fbody383]

Pranav's post from the other Jordan thread:

In regards to Pranav's questions;
1) Out of class racing. In club racing, especially with the overall size of the NASA program, it's going to have to happen and it's something that we're all going to have to work through together. The issue with the Legends car that Pranav mentions isn't because it's not a V8 American car, it's a driver training issue. Driver's in mixed car groups need to develop the rapport to be able to walk into each other's pit space and talk about these things like adults, not just complain about them on the forums after the event. Even World Challenge, IMSA, LeMans, Nurburgring, and Daytona 24 hour have multiple classes on the track at the same time of very different speeds. It works and there are challenges, but it is what it is and we all take the good with the bad.

I was overly communicative about the issues, as were other drivers, to our RDs, as we have been told not to approach other drivers directly about issues but rather let the RDs handle it. In the past this meant if the RD got a complaint about a specific driver, the RD brought it up in general in the driver's meeting, then sought the specific driver in question to help figure out whatever issue it is.

The out of class racing issue was brought up in general during the driver's meeting, but again in R3 and R4 a couple of very specific examples continued to behave as if nothing was discussed.

2) Why Lightning/Autobahn groups disappeared. Basically, for the last 3 years there hasn't been a consistent enough group of regulars in either Lightning or Thunder to justify either of them getting their own run group. So we gave a try to splitting what was a combined 3/4 group into their own groups. This has consistently given us more entries than Thunder and Lighting/Autobahn having their own group and then there's only so much time in the day to build a schedule so that's why it came to this.

This is truth. We can't as a group bargain if we aren't bringing high attendance numbers. We have a number of cars that will begin to show up as the season progresses so I'm hoping we get closer to our own run group again.

Having participated in every single 25 Hour and growing up in NASA's home region where literally every single race group is a mixed class group, I think it's a very fun dynamic of amatuer racing that you can choose to either love or hate, either way you'll get both the good and the bad dealings from time to time. Sometimes you benefit from a pick maneuver, sometimes you lose a position from someone else setting up a pick, and every once in a while the pick takes out all 3 cars. This happens even with only one class on track. It's all about being able to have the conversation with the driver's creating an inappropriate challenge, or addressing it with a NASA official at the event so we can get the driver conduct issue corrected to minimize the bad that comes with mixed group racing.

I supposed part of my frustration is I would "pick to lose" when I see 3-5 legends cars coming up behind me very quickly and very obviously racing. Before this happens the CMC car behind me would have a much wider gap, then I'd move aside just enough to give them safe room to pass without screwing up their race, and the other CMC car gets right behind me; in one case two of my in class cars behind used this out of class traffic to swoop right by me because I was positioned wrong to let an out of class train by.

There really isn't any valid explanation for blown qual times.

I guess I'll need help learning how to "pick" better.

Anyways I've said my piece on this already. Looking ahead at the schedule and Thunder attendance numbers for TWS, COTA, Hallet, MSRH, and TWS again, I don't expect to be "bunched up" with a bunch out of class cars on a small/tight track again anytime soon so you won't see much whining on my part.

[Pranav]

nm

[mach1]

I would love to hear from the RX7/Legends guys point of view, I bet we wrecked their racing too, flying up and cutting through them. They were very respectful and patient of us, more so than AI has been in the past. Another thing is safety, if we have a 3500lb AI car nail a (guessing here) 1300 lb legends car, it won't be pretty. I also had a hard time seeing the legends guys, I came flying up to make a pass on a CMC car and surprise, a legends car was there, almost made contact. Will referenced the endurance racing, in that case I feel like things are much different, when you have 20 min balls to the wall sprint races the urgency changes dramatically. I don't have any answers here but I wanted to share my POV.

[Pranav]

I would love to hear from the RX7/Legends guys point of view, I bet we wrecked their racing too, flying up and cutting through them. They were very respectful and patient of us, more so than AI has been in the past. Another thing is safety, if we have a 3500lb AI car nail a (guessing here) 1300 lb legends car, it won't be pretty. I also had a hard time seeing the legends guys, I came flying up to make a pass on a CMC car and surprise, a legends car was there, almost made contact. Will referenced the endurance racing, in that case I feel like things are much different, when you have 20 min balls to the wall sprint races the urgency changes dramatically. I don't have any answers here but I wanted to share my POV.

Since this "split off" thread doesn't have my original whiny post that started this, I just wanted to re-iterate Tyler's point again:

What ever happened to the 4th race group (Autobahn) and being able to spread out the racing classes so we aren't cramming so much into one group and running over tiny cars? The RX-7 guys and most of the front half of the legends group were great to work with and I felt bad that we have such a huge speed delta on the straights while they're trying to race too, the faster legends cars would catch up and pass the tail end of CMC as well...

I will say that from recollection that the positive compliment goes to pretty much all of the Legends group not just the "front half" like I said earlier.

I really still feel terrible that they have to share a track with us big heavy cars. Contact would NOT be pretty between us.

[ShadowBolt]

The PT guys were great! The one guy in the Legend car was really bad. Jay said his Mom could beat him and she has never been on any track. Bryan went to Chris about this same guy on Friday during practice. He was so slow Jay and the front of the CMC field lapped him three times in R3. This one guy needs to be back in DE. Other than that I like the other cars out there.


JJ

[Al Fernandez]

I've black flagged cars for not going fast enough before. Its not an easy call because everyone is there paying money to have fun. If the guy is slow but predictable and on the line its one thing. Slow and all over the place and its a call to Tom or whomever is RC to get the rolling chicane off the track.

[nasawill]

Sorry about going off topic!

<------ Forum Rookie!

It's absolutely acceptable to go talk to another driver as long as you bring a good attitude with you.

I like to bring a bottle of water and introduce myself as the driver of *inset car color, model, and #* and ask them what they thought happened. Letting them go first will almost 100% of the time let you know which way the conversation is going to go. It will usually go one of three ways:

1) "Oh man I'm so sorry about that" or "my fault". *handshakes* and everybody goes on about their day.

or

2) Something along the lines of "what were you thinking" or "Oh you stupid MFer...." at which point you should immediately walk away and report to a race director.

or

3) "There's mustangs out there?" In which case you can choose to keep a good attitude and respectfully do some educating and/or involve a race director.

What's most important is that these things see attention and action to the challenge at hand at the track during the event. We can build blue sky on the forums till our letter fall off the keyboards, but I'd much rather address it at the track and have people leaving the event happier or at least better educated on these issues.

Please feel free to use me as a resource at the track. I'm happy to give unbiased input on situations you have questions about, or even backup a busy Race Director on an issue. This is still very fun for me so I'm happy to help anytime.

[nasawill]

Rather than muck up the Jordan Motorsports MSRC Winning thread...

We've had similar issues before within AI/CMC - i.e. that some AI guys have had "difficulty" accepting a pass from a CMC car that just ran them down.

I don't have enough experience to know what to demand from the RD in these cases. Clearly we'll continue to address the expectations in the driver's meetings. So, is there an obligation for an out of class car to yield to an overtaking car?





So there may not be an affirmative obligation for an out of class car to yield, there is clearly an obligation to be aware.

If we expect to have group assignees/visitors at Hallett, we will all be better off having clear behavioral expectations ahead of time.

Discuss/agree/disagree to your heart's content.

- If I'm driving alone and see 2 cars having a battle coming up behind me, I'll safely do everything I can to not interrupt the battle.

- If I'm in a battle and there is faster traffic coming from behind, my priority is keeping a fair battle while letting faster traffic through, however we know this plays out many different ways. It doesn't always work to our benefit, but losing a position is always better than a bent car.

-If I'm in a battle and we're coming up on slower traffic, I'm going to do everything I can to make the traffic work in my advantage.

It takes the whole run group to be on the same page for these three posts to work and even then they don't work perfectly, but at least we can all be on the same page and cordial about it. It's all about respect for people's quality of wheel-to-wheel race time.

[Fbody383]

Sorry about going off topic!

<------ Forum Rookie!

More importantly, you addressed it. We have ways of making you look good regardless...

I like to bring a bottle of water and introduce myself as the driver of *inset car color, model, and #* and ask them what they thought happened. Letting them go first will almost 100% of the time let you know which way the conversation is going to go. It will usually go one of three ways

Seems like solid approach. And the more we race with somebody... and maybe bribe them with BBQ, the better it will go.