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Thread: Mixed Group Racing - The Future of AI/SI/CMC/XX

  1. #11
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby
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    Will-I appreciate you participating in our forum and offering input. Unfortunately I am still extremely bothered by the one problem Legends car from last weekend and NASA's handling of it.

    Will, you stated the issue with the Legends car was a driver training issue. This driver was repeatedly black flagged and I believe kicked out of the test day by MSR Cresson staff. Immediately upon seeing them in our group for qualifying I signaled to our race director to alert him to a dangerous issue with that particular Legends car and specifically told our RD that it did not need to be in our group. I was told it would be looked into and discussed. Yet throughout the weekend the problem was not addressed even though it sounds like others made complaints. I don't think it's my job or responsibility to try and address this type of situation after the RD has already been alerted. I agree with Pranav that we have been told not to approach the driver and let the RD handle it.

    My issue was first that nothing was done to correct a problem. Second that the problem potentially caused me to lose my first race and created a situation where it appeared a close call was made on a pass of the Legends car. (This is why I was so ticked and not my normal self after the race at the impound). Then Will says the most important thing is they are addressed at the track during the event which obviously wasn't done. Then we get yelled at by our RD for racing while the emergency vehicle is on track even though there wasn't a yellow flag for awhile. If the yellow isn't out then people are going to either try and pass cars or try to keep from getting passed-throw the yellow to protect everyone please. I relaxed in the garage with some music and was good until this thread.

    Based on Wills comments now I really question either the licensing process with regards to the problem Legends car or the recognizing of whatever license was used. Will stated it was a driver training issue but how can one get a license that is that unaware of what is going on around them and that far off pace? I had planned to follow up off line with our RD about this whole issue but since it has been brought up in the group I would appreciate some response. I reported the issue to our RD and don't feel it's my job to go find a particular driver to ask them why they are so slow and don't know what is going on anywhere on track. Understand in Friday's practice there were several close wrecks due to this Legends car due to braking at the late uphill apex at Wagon Wheel, braking at the apex of Ricochet, moving back and forth on the only allowed passing areas of the straights, not letting faster cars by in the straights by gassing it on the straight with a 6 car train behind it, etc.

    Will-I guess I didn't do everything to try and take advantage of the slower Legends car as I didn't want to be anywhere near the car and my concern for safety by giving the car plenty of room while passing on the straight allowed another car to gain a position on me. I'll have to give it more thought as to whether that is what I would do in the future or if I should just look elsewhere. I think there may have been a wreck on Saturday based upon this line of thinking. I had already totaled one car in the same spot due to a car being out of control. That's why I enjoyed your article http://www.windingroad.com/articles/...off-the-track/

    Tyler brings up a good point about how we wreck the other groups racing and hearing if they have any suggestions on how each race group should work together. Tyler is also right at a 20 minute race compared to a 1,500 minute race just isn't a fair comparison especially on a tight track with limited passing areas for cars of similar power/lap times.

    The RX7's and rest of the Legends field were wonderful to race with. Heck-I even checked Racing Junk Monday night to see how much the Legends cars were as I talked to Jerry that might be fun to race in along with not needing a huge trailer/truck. I complimented the RX7's in our Sunday drivers meeting and stopped to pay a compliment to the Legends racers after R4 as I massaged pace to try and ensure the top three were able to pass me easy in the straights without slowing any of them down while giving a point by.

    Now that I have stated all my issues-how might the rest of the group move forward. Is there a chance that since this is considered gentlemen racing that we wouldn't attempt to take advantage of passing a car in front of us due to passing a much slower car? (The issue with that isn't always the car in the middle but the car in the back which may not be aware of why they are suddenly able to catch the car in front of them due to others lifting). I told the RX7 guys as I saw them gathered that they need to come have a beer with us sat. night. I think both of the groups could fit in well as they look the most similar to our group hanging out together and working on each others cars.
    Bryan Leinart
    CMC #24

  2. #12
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby ShadowBolt's Avatar
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    I would really hate to be in the shoes of the slow Legend guy but he was a big problem and I agree should not have been let out with a race group. It was not that much that he did not know what to do as much as it was how damn slow he was. I remember getting lapped by Mike Patterson my first year at all the tracks except maybe TWS. At MSRH my first race ever I was six seconds a lap slower than the next slowest CMC driver and Jay was eight seconds slower. We only got lapped once per race. I think this guy may have been twenty or more seconds a lap slower than the rest of the field and that is just too much. I would never want to hurt this guys feelings but I'm sure he can get up to speed with some help and seat time.......if not racing may not be for him!

    Now I don't have an issue running with other groups and I'm sure I will get screwed in a race by slower traffic or maybe win a race now and then because I guessed correctly on what side to pass the traffic on. That is just part of it and I can deal with it. I do worry about my 3280lbs. car hitting a legend car. What do they weigh 1200lbs? This could get really ugly. It could get deadly!

    If you watch Jay's video of R1 from the start you will see Dan go left of Three PT cars and Jay went right. Jay could have gotten screwed big time (and if he had we would not have ended up in the deal with Dan) but the PT car moved left and let Jay go right by. I have no idea if the guy knew this was the race for first place but I feel like he did and he made sure he did not screw up the CMC leaders. Damn good job by that young man!


    JJ
    Last edited by ShadowBolt; 03-16-2017 at 07:56 AM.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowBolt View Post
    I would never want to hurt this guys feelings but I'm sure he can get up to speed with some help and seat time.......
    I self regulated and made sure I could run with the group before joining, I wouldn't want to be on track with the race group unless I was within 2-3 secs of the group.
    Tyler Gardner
    CMC #13 2015-2017
    SM #013 2018
    www.dfwmustangs.net

  4. #14
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby
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    Had I not been on track Friday afternoon and experienced the issues I saw then I would feel differently. I understand in practice people may be checking out their car, bedding brakes, scrubbing tires, etc. so I expect certain things to be different. i.e. people off line pointing people bye but having a general awareness about what is around you. What I don't expect is for someone to brake check you at an apex going uphill at wagon wheel and slow down a train of 4-6 cars to a snails pace only to then gun it down the straight away changing their line and not giving a point by. The question is did it get better throughout the weekend as far as awareness or was it just not as big of a problem because we could pass anywhere on track? Next question is how far off pace results in some action being taken? From the results it looks like the average lap was about 1:45. So generally 15-25 seconds off the rest of the field which means a pretty big speed delta. Only our RD knows the answers but obviously 15-25 seconds a lap slower at Cresson isn't slow enough for anything to happen.
    Bryan Leinart
    CMC #24

  5. #15
    Bryan,

    It sounds like the issue with the legend car you bring up being unsafe which is very different than just typical lap traffic/watching mirrors that I was referring to when I mentioned driver training. (does anybody have some video they can share with me?) If our Race Director dropped the ball on handling this I apologize. But in the terms of the NASA Texas hierarchy let me use an analogy: If you tried to return something at Home Depot and the cashier said no can do, I think 99% of us would ask to speak with a manager. NASA Texas is no different except instead of the store manager, you can approach the business owner and address it with them directly. I think our Race Directors are pretty top notch, but we're all human and deal with things slightly different. I'm happy to take any and all complaints, concerns, and questions that anybody feels a NASA Official might not be handling correctly during an event. It's an easy conversation; either I explain why something needs to be done a certain way or I address the issue properly. Happy customer and educated NASA Official, that's a good deal! I'm happy to chat it up with you guys about things like this, and I can even jump in and handle them as the Regional Director if the Rae Director is busy.

    In my previous post about using picks I'm referring to using picks when it's lap traffic you trust, not a trouble making legend that possibly shouldn't be out there. I'd like to move forward with still addressing this. Does anybody have car # for the legend and/or some video so I can look into the matter deeper so this doesn't happen again?

    I appreciate you reminding me of the article I did, still true every event!
    Will Faules
    Regional Director - NASA Texas

  6. #16
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby
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    It was always hard to get a number but it was this one:

    slowlegends.jpg

  7. #17
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby
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    Pranav is correct. Should be #93. Just check with anyone in the small bore group on Friday's practice or check with the track management who ran practice. I know there were black flags involved.

    It's also difficult to set up a pick as Will says when there is such a difference in lap time but not in terms of weight/power. To me either being way off pace or unaware a race is happening is a driver training issue. Though the difference in lap times brings another can of worms into the equation.

    I still appreciate your new willingness to be involved. As mentioned I planned to follow up with our RD after the event as I wanted to give it the 24 hour rule I like to employ. I have no idea if our RD dropped the ball or how many others made a comment. I was pretty emphatic about it before qualifying based on Friday's practice. Though at what point or difference in lap time does it take to get black flagged or moved to DE? I'm guessing this could be a first event and things could hopefully get better quickly.

    I recall a time at TWS where a driver was kicked out for the weekend based on Friday's test day. Now I can't remember if NASA was running the track day but I know NASA wasn't running the practice day and may have had no idea.
    Bryan Leinart
    CMC #24

  8. #18
    The legend driver in question has been suspended from racing and is going to run in HPDE and/or get some private coaching to develop some race craft before returning to racing. I think he was fine with us at TWS last year or at least wasn't brought to my attention either way it's clear that he needs some work.

    Sorry this affected anybody's weekend. I'm glad it got brought to my attention and handled. In the future, please don't hesitate to address this stuff with me at the track. I'd have been happy to get this gentleman moved into HPDE where he could have learned something from our top notch DE staff and the Thunder weekend would have been a little smoother.

    Cheers fellas!
    Will Faules
    Regional Director - NASA Texas

  9. #19
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby Fbody383's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nasawill View Post
    The legend driver in question has been suspended from racing and is going to run in HPDE and/or get some private coaching to develop some race craft before returning to racing. I think he was fine with us at TWS last year or at least wasn't brought to my attention either way it's clear that he needs some work.
    Knowing we're all type A in some degree, it sucks a little to have to happen. Like somebody said, "self regulation" is useful in this hobby.

    I'm hopeful that driver (i) gains the skills to return to W2W, and (ii) maybe even gets to demonstrate it in the combined group again.

    Will, I do appreciate the balancing act of telling a customer they're not ready for the product they wanted to buy.
    #39 CMC Camaro
    Orange is Fast!
    CMC-NT01 FTW!

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Fbody383 View Post

    Will, I do appreciate the balancing act of telling a customer they're not ready for the product they wanted to buy.

    It's my pleasure to assist.

    PS How many posts do I need to remove my Rookie markings here on the forums?
    Will Faules
    Regional Director - NASA Texas

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