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Thread: Another New guy with a 3rd Gen

  1. #11
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby RichardP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerno View Post

    2 Main Hoop/ Halo intersection. This car has what I believe is called a NASCAR plate design attaching the halo to the main hoop. I have worked with Will and confirmed the setup will be permitted to run in NASA per the CCR's because it is considered a mounting plate in which the tube terminates on. The issue is within CMC the car technically has too many mounting plates on the cage to be "legal" even though there is no real completive advantage. Would anyone within the community have issues with my car running in the CMC class as it is?? I'd love to fix the cage but basically it would have to be fully rebuilt and at this point I honest can't afford to do it, I've already spent way more than expected to get the car in condition to be on track



    Attachment 1856
    Is the mounting plate at the top of the hoop welded to the interior sheet metal of the car? It's really hard to tell in the picture but it looks like there is just a little spot on the upper left corner of the tube that is connected. The fact a plate was used doesn't really matter for CMC. The issue would be attachment points to the car. If it is welded to the car, is it possible to get in there and cut the attachment to the sheet metal of the car without hurting the integrity of the joint? If it's not attached there and it passes tech otherwise, that part would be legal for CMC.


    Richard P.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerno View Post
    I do have 2 specific cage questions hopefully ya'll can help with. Let me know if I should move this question to the tech section....


    1. Door Bars. I know the rules state 2 driver side bars that are at a height to protect the driver are needed. My car currently has 2 NASCAR style bars which extend up to the window opening of the door. While this seems safe from an impact perspective, it's really hard to get in and out of the car without even having gear on. I'm nervous to try with helmet, hans, etc... I really want to remove the upper bar for this reason. Removing the bar would leave the 2nd bar at the top bar which is ~24" from the ground at ride height, is this acceptable??

    Attachment 1860

    2 Main Hoop/ Halo intersection. This car has what I believe is called a NASCAR plate design attaching the halo to the main hoop. I have worked with Will and confirmed the setup will be permitted to run in NASA per the CCR's because it is considered a mounting plate in which the tube terminates on. The issue is within CMC the car technically has too many mounting plates on the cage to be "legal" even though there is no real completive advantage. Would anyone within the community have issues with my car running in the CMC class as it is?? I'd love to fix the cage but basically it would have to be fully rebuilt and at this point I honest can't afford to do it, I've already spent way more than expected to get the car in condition to be on track


    Attachment 1855
    Attachment 1856
    Attachment 1857
    Attachment 1858
    On the door bars, I wouldn't specifically lower then unless you just can't. My car has door bars that are quite a bit lower though and has had a logbook since '03.

    Back in college we built an E30 BMW that we did lemons with for a time and all got together one night and drank beer and practiced egress. Lemons at the time required that you prove you could get out of the car in a certain number of seconds.

    I say all that to say, when you practice it you'll be suprised how fast you get and how easily you start contorting in.
    Daniel Records
    CMC # 34

  3. #13
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby
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    Welcome and great to have another join and with a third gen! Look forward to meeting you at Cresson. Certainly ask any and all questions as there is a wealth of knowledge here in between the posts poking fun and stating worthless opinions.

    Records-I think you said you were an Aggie? getting together with some dudes to drink and practice egress together-I have never heard it called that.
    Bryan Leinart
    CMC #24

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardP View Post
    Is the mounting plate at the top of the hoop welded to the interior sheet metal of the car? It's really hard to tell in the picture but it looks like there is just a little spot on the upper left corner of the tube that is connected. The fact a plate was used doesn't really matter for CMC. The issue would be attachment points to the car. If it is welded to the car, is it possible to get in there and cut the attachment to the sheet metal of the car without hurting the integrity of the joint? If it's not attached there and it passes tech otherwise, that part would be legal for CMC.


    Richard P.

    Richard - you are correct there is a small spot where the cage is welded to the pillar. I can and was meaning to cut that weld but forgot about it. Thanks for pointing that out.


    Quote Originally Posted by drecords View Post
    On the door bars, I wouldn't specifically lower then unless you just can't. My car has door bars that are quite a bit lower though and has had a logbook since '03.

    Back in college we built an E30 BMW that we did lemons with for a time and all got together one night and drank beer and practiced egress. Lemons at the time required that you prove you could get out of the car in a certain number of seconds.

    I say all that to say, when you practice it you'll be suprised how fast you get and how easily you start contorting in.
    Agree it can be pretty quick with practice but still don't know if the bar really adds value. Measured against the nose of my car and the 2 lower bars should stop a side impact I'd think. Have a friend who ran a GT1 and Vintage car and he didn't like the upper bar in case of fire. Other thought is the car may pull double duty with WRL events and driver changes would be rough with the top bar in place.

    Quote Originally Posted by BryanL View Post
    Welcome and great to have another join and with a third gen! Look forward to meeting you at Cresson. Certainly ask any and all questions as there is a wealth of knowledge here in between the posts poking fun and stating worthless opinions.

    Records-I think you said you were an Aggie? getting together with some dudes to drink and practice egress together-I have never heard it called that.
    Ha Ha - Does sound like an Aggie thing....

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanL View Post
    Welcome and great to have another join and with a third gen! Look forward to meeting you at Cresson. Certainly ask any and all questions as there is a wealth of knowledge here in between the posts poking fun and stating worthless opinions.

    Records-I think you said you were an Aggie? getting together with some dudes to drink and practice egress together-I have never heard it called that.
    Also a group of 'BMW guys'
    Daniel Records
    CMC # 34

  6. #16
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby Supercharged111's Avatar
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    Gerno my doors have been gutted so far, and my lower net mounting is kind of wonky, so I've ingressed/egressed my 4th gen with the door closed since 2013 and haven't had any problems getting out of the car with time to spare. It used to be that you had to egress in 10 seconds through an open door and 15 through a closed door (just checked CCR and it now specifies 15 seconds across the board) and I can easily be out in less than 10. I suppose this does depend on your "composition".
    RM CMC Director

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supercharged111 View Post
    Gerno my doors have been gutted so far, and my lower net mounting is kind of wonky, so I've ingressed/egressed my 4th gen with the door closed since 2013 and haven't had any problems getting out of the car with time to spare. It used to be that you had to egress in 10 seconds through an open door and 15 through a closed door (just checked CCR and it now specifies 15 seconds across the board) and I can easily be out in less than 10. I suppose this does depend on your "composition".
    Think I'll probably leave it as is for now and see how things work out. Worse case I can remove the upper bar later.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby Fbody383's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardP View Post
    Is the mounting plate at the top of the hoop welded to the interior sheet metal of the car? It's really hard to tell in the picture but it looks like there is just a little spot on the upper left corner of the tube that is connected. The fact a plate was used doesn't really matter for CMC. The issue would be attachment points to the car. If it is welded to the car, is it possible to get in there and cut the attachment to the sheet metal of the car without hurting the integrity of the joint? If it's not attached there and it passes tech otherwise, that part would be legal for CMC.
    Quote Originally Posted by NASA CCR
    15.6.13 Mounting PointsThe roll cage shall be mounted to the floor area, which includes rocker panels, of the car in six, seven, or eightpoints. The cage shall not go through the firewall. The seventh and eighth points must attach to the firewall orfront fender wells. All cage attachment points must be mounted to plates or a mounting box (plinth). Eachrequired cage bar shall terminate on a plate with a 360 degree weld to the mounting plate, except as specifiedin Section 15.6.14.B. There shall be only one (1) mounting “point” per plate. This point is defined as where the“required tube” mounts. All additional tubes mounted to that plate must be mounted as close to the requiredtube as possible [Ref: (15.6.14.B)]. It is recommended that plinth boxes use a bottom support plate in caseswhere the edges of the box may punch through the sheet metal.


    15.6.14 Mounting PlatesEach mounting plate shall be no greater than one hundred (100) square inches, and no less than nine (9)square inches. Each mounting plate must be no greater than twelve (12) inches or less than two (2) inches onany side. Welded mounting plates shall be at least 0.080-inch thick. Plates may extend onto vertical sectionsof the structure. Any mounting plate may be multi-angled, but shall not exceed one hundred (100) squareinches total including vertical sections.
    First - welcome to the best group in NASA. Yes we're biased.

    Main Hoop/Halo Intersection - would be interesting to see in person, and hopefully it looks better. And because I want to understand perspectives better, it would be interesting to see what Tech says about that. I don't think there are any Texas AI/CMC cars put together like that.

    Don't confuse "mounting points" and "mounting plates;" my quick scan of the CCR is that those are used together to join the cage to the chassis and a mounting plate has a minimum size.

    When you say you think you have too many, what are you counting?

    2 at the floor under the A-pillar
    2 for the main hoop
    2 for the rear stays

    In the old car (RIP) the upper door bar was almost to the top of the door skin. I always left the door closed to egress as the cool kids say. You'll want to get the seat adjusted also to make sure you can clear the seat halo if you have one.

    Anyway, welcome aboard and ask all the questions you need to. You'll always have a hijacked thread and get half the information you want/need.

    David
    #39 CMC Camaro
    Orange is Fast!
    CMC-NT01 FTW!

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fbody383 View Post
    First - welcome to the best group in NASA. Yes we're biased.

    Main Hoop/Halo Intersection - would be interesting to see in person, and hopefully it looks better. And because I want to understand perspectives better, it would be interesting to see what Tech says about that. I don't think there are any Texas AI/CMC cars put together like that.

    Don't confuse "mounting points" and "mounting plates;" my quick scan of the CCR is that those are used together to join the cage to the chassis and a mounting plate has a minimum size.

    When you say you think you have too many, what are you counting?

    2 at the floor under the A-pillar
    2 for the main hoop
    2 for the rear stays

    In the old car (RIP) the upper door bar was almost to the top of the door skin. I always left the door closed to egress as the cool kids say. You'll want to get the seat adjusted also to make sure you can clear the seat halo if you have one.

    Anyway, welcome aboard and ask all the questions you need to. You'll always have a hijacked thread and get half the information you want/need.

    David

    Thank you.

    Overall the structure is odd but to me seems to be a reasonable design, just a bit goofy. I bought the car from Virginia and was not told of this odd cage layout. I would prefer a standard cage setup but I'm kinda stuck right now. Most of the welds on the car were pretty cold so I ground most of them down and rewelded them.

    I've been talking with Will for a few weeks and sent him pics of the cage design. He sent details over to someone in nationals and they confirmed the design is legal per the CCR's

  10. #20
    Welcome!!! Ping Will and see if nasas decisiĆ³n that it is legal per the car is contingent on it being welded to the body (as it appears to be) or independent and then give me a ring.
    Al Fernandez

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